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If I were Randy Marsh, I'd see about never working in Detroit again.
That sound you hear in the East is the sigh of relief from the 1964 Phillies.
-- MWE
-- MWE
-- MWE
Why not let the pitchers decide it? Which Keppel did, by letting one get away inside. That's self-serving claptrap.
So, what, if there's a wild pitch with a guy on third, he goes back because we want the hitters to decide it?
Randy Marsh was flat out terrible. Positively Greggian.
And then again, if the run scores on the HBP, the Twins tie it up in the bottom of the inning anyway.
But, more importantly. I thought every time a Detroit pitcher was looking really solid--Porcello, Lyon--Leyland came out and hooked 'im, in Porcello's case long before necessary.
Still, the game goes to extra innings with the Twins best 2 relievers already used up, and Leyland still has both of his available. How do the Tigers lose in that scenario? I don't know.
In fairness, he also punched out Polanco in the 9th on a pitch that was 4 inches inside. In a pretty big spot. Marsh was all over the place all day.
I know that the Tigers really weren't a great team, but losing a lead of 7 games with 3 weeks to go and 3 games with 4 to go is tough to take. The realization that the franchise's future outside of Porcello, Verlander and Cabrera (still, I think) is pretty brutal doesn't help.
This was one of the greatest moments of my entire life.
You'd rather the moldering remains of Jeremy Bonderman or Bobby Seay against two righties with power?
Perry. He's better than the journeyman that hit Inge.
This was the Tigers' main problem in this game. When Verlander (maybe Jackson) isn't pitching, they aren't very good. Even when Porcello pitches well, that lineup has a bunch of holes.
Fair enough. It's a shame to lose this way, but the team just kind of wasn't particularly good.
He was awful for both teams. The Polanco punch out and the HBP were in huge situations with men in scoring position. Polanco never strikes out and to have it happen there on an awful call was tough to take.
And then again, if the run scores on the HBP, the Twins tie it up in the bottom of the inning anyway.
Unless they score more runs after the run scores on the HBP.
You just can't stress that enough. Some of my friends argue they are bad at fundamentals, or leave too many guys on, or Leyland mismanages the team, or some other such stuff. It all may be true, but when you look at that lineup, with one hitter with an OPS+ over 110, it's nearly impossible to score enough runs to win no matter how you slice it.
-- MWE
They were a bat short all year.
Better than the shot heard 'round the world? Quite possible, but I'm not sure I could compare the two.
It's tough thinking about Adam Dunn signing for two years for what Magglio is going to make in one next year. Or what Willis is making. Or less than what Robertson and Bonderman are making.
But they played games at the Polo Grounds for several years afterward; I don't think this is being compared.
I think so. Would they have won one more game if they never traded for Washburn and Huff?
BTW, I really think those playoff odds are a bunch of crap.
On the other hand, if you believe some of the posts in this thread, he took a team with one good hitter and one good pitcher and tied for the division championship.
I don't think so. Granted, neither played well for the Tigers but the alternatives weren't a whole lot better.
-- MWE
Good manager, but his goodness (borderline greatness) shows up in long-term things -- using the whole roster, being a guy players want to play and win for, etc. Tough to argue with his regular season career record.
Short term -- one game or a week or two -- not so good. Went with Rodney way too long, didn't pinch run for Cabrera late. Quite frankly, I'm not sure I see the reason to pull Porcello so early today. I'd have pulled Verlander much earlier Sunday and had him ready for 1-2 innings of pen duty today. It's odd that he's so trusting in young guys and the whole roster, yet rode the eminently mediocre Rodney so long today. I've kind of had it with the Todd Jones/Fernando Rodney style closer, yet Leyland seems to love them.
I really don't know a good answer to this question. When I'm in the middle of watching a game I think he's insane. That he stuck with Huff for so long even after Magglio and Raburn picked up was inexcusable. However, when I take a step back and realize that this team nearly won the division despite collapses by so many key players and with guys like Clete Thomas, Fernando Rodney, Gerald Laird, Adam Everett, etc. playing significant roles I have a harder time complaining.
Also, I think he was turning his body to not quite get out of the way. Blaming the loss on that, I can't get behind that.
That being said, I'm upset that Marsh missed that call as if he hadn't we'd all probably be watching a 7-7 game in the 17th inning with third-string catchers warming up in the bullpens.
They didn't sigh two years ago?
You're kidding, right? How about Polanco getting called out on a pitch that was over the white line of the right-handed batters box? Or the -- as you mentioned -- hit-by-pitch on Inge?
Also, I think he was turning his body to not quite get out of the way.
I tend to agree, but the rules are the rules. If you want to make a rule about looseness of shirts, I'll listen.
Chip Caray said it was a great pitch, so...
I can buy a Marty Schottenheimer comp for Leyland. Great at getting parts to fit, but not who you want calling the shots when it really matters.
Hot pants and muscle shirts - it's the only way to go.
Except for the '82 Brewers.
tiebreaker
Stop this -- it's a playoff.
Nitpicks now out of the way - Holy Moses, that was great!
I said so at the time. Porcello was great.
And if he was committed to taking Porcello out early, he should have been committed to letting Lyon get 6 outs and getting Miner out a lot faster.
But am I crazy to think Leyland should have bunted home Everett in the 9th? When he didn't, I said out loud that forgoing the semi-sure run would cost him the game. Was I right? Am I crazy?
I think my own pants got a little tighter just thinking about it.
There, I would say yes. I've already made my feelings known (and said so before Saturday's game, so it wasn't a second-guess) that Verlander should have been out there Saturday and Porcello Sunday, but apart from that, Rodney pitched on Saturday in a non-save situation and then had to come back on Sunday and pitch an inning and a third, and then you leave him out there for four innings tonight?
-- MWE
Sadly (no offense, Harvey), the '82 Brewers won their division.
After only 92 pitches with 8 Ks and obviously great stuff. For Zach F'in Miner.
Not seeing it.
But did lose a 4-game lead with 5 to play.
Any other collapsers that came back to win?
I also didn't realize that the Twins' new park opens next year.
I had exactly this reaction. My thoughts went something like this:
"Taking out Porcello? That's a gift."
"For Miner? You've got to be shitting me."
"If Porcello isn't 20 years old, he stays in the game".
Like everybody else, Leyland has his favourites. There are some pitchers he inexplicably keeps on a short leash, and others he has confidence in long after any sensible person has given up hope. And some decisions he makes about pitchers are perfectly understandable.
That said, I've never understood his enthusiasm for Rodney, whom since 2006 I have regarded as a failure waiting to happen every time he steps on the mound in high-leverage situations. Do we get the good Rodney or the bad Rodney today? Normally Rodney implodes himself. This time, though, Leyland left him in too long, and did it on national TV.
In other words, any reputation Leyland once had for being one of the game's better managers may not survive tonight. Especially if Verlander turns out to have been overused this year.
So in other words, "there's a good chance" Verlander would've either pitched a shutout on short rest or somehow willed the offense to score more than one run? Not buying it.
"Taking out Porcello? That's a gift."
"For Miner? You've got to be shitting me."
"If Porcello isn't 20 years old, he stays in the game".
The crazy thing is that there isn't a manager in the game more likely to tell his GM he wants to start the season with a 20 year old who's barely pitched in the minors and that he has no problem naming him a starter.
Then, when it all pans out and the guy's lights out at the end of the year, he pulls him after 92 pitches.
Some columnist really should call Sheffield up and ask him. You know he would have something to say, and probably quite a lot. It would be like having your column written for you by somebody else, but you still get paid for it.
I remember listening to that final weekend's games on a coming-and-going Armed Forces Radio signal in the olden days when we didn't have such things as GameDay Audio for those of us living overseas. And then they lost the ALCS to the Twins. That was an unsatisfying end to the season, too.
Now, let's not encourage that kind of behavior. That's how we got AL MVP articles declaring Mauer a bad fit for the award because his team isn't going to the postseason.
There's nothing anywhere of any kind, in anything he's done or will do, that would lead you to deviate from normal and ride Fernando Rodney for 4 innings in the biggest game of the year. Nothing.
So if the 12th inning had gone as Leyland hoped (probably at least six more pitches for Rodney), Rodney would have thrown more than half as many pitches as Porcello!
The problem wasn't that he was getting tired ... the problem is that he stinks.
They showed his "save/non-save" ERA split, it's like 2.20/6.60. Shorn of the statistical advantage of never inheriting runners or pitching more than an inning, he flat out stinks.(**)
(**) Not that you need the split to tell that, but the fact that there's a number confirming what is obvious to the naked eye should give extra pause.
Which is really the biggest condemnation of pulling Porcello there is. Having thrown 92 pitches and only minorly (sorry about the pun) in trouble, yeah, let's pull him after 92 pitches. With THAT BULLPEN?
Yes, he pulled Porcello too early.
The problem wasn't that he was getting tired ... the problem is that he stinks.
Yes, he stinks for the best reliever on a team. Who would you have used instead? Perry is the only other possible option, and he's not too reliable.
Plus they blew a 6.5 game lead with 12 to play. Technically, that isn't as many games blown per day as 3 in 4, but in reality it's a lot harder to understand. Every team will lose 3 out of 4 at some point. But a 90-win team dropping 10 straight? There's something you don't see every day.
If 20-year-old Porcello plays for any other manager, he spends this entire season in AA and never plays for the Tigers at all, and he also doesn't start game 163 because game 163 doesn't exist.
Seriously, Tigers fans need to get some perspective and realize that of all 30 MLB managers, Jim Leyland is by far the likeliest to trust young, talented players in crucial situations. Porcello looked done, that's all. Try being a Dodger fan and having to wait three freakin' years for Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier to become regulars. Or a Twins fan waiting for Justin Morneau and Johan Santana to be given playing time already. Etc etc.
He didn't trust Perry, either, or he would have pitched.
I'm utterly stunned Mauer didn't whack one of those balls into the outfield. I've never seen an intentional ball thrown that close to the plate. (Including that one that Cabrera(?) hit that one time.)
Really, though, I would have expected Leyland to pull Rodney in the tenth, afterCuddyer tripled, Harris had walked and before Tolbert's single. That's pretty much as he did in the seventh, taking Miner out after a home run and a single.
Porcello looked done, that's all.
I disagree, but I suppose I'm not in a position to question God's perspective. I mean, even if he didn't LOOK done, God should know whether he WAS.
He's the most disciplined hitter I've seen since Bonds. I couldn't even imagine him doing anything so reckless.
EDIT: It would be awesome, but reckless nonetheless.
Hitting the game- and division-winning single on a botched IBB would have cemented his MVP case, though.
It's weird. In Game 162, he let Verlander start the eighth at 100 pitches and a 5-0 lead. Nothing wrong with that. But Verlander then gets into trouble, so much so that he allows three runs as five of six hitters reach. Finally, after 120 pitches and the tying runs on base, he goes to Rodney.
He didn't trust anybody else in his bullpen to protect a five-run lead over two innings to the point that he rode his starter well after he needed to get the hook. This time, he yanks his starter and puts the game in the hands of the relievers -- the same ones he didn't trust to get a five-run lead through two more innings.
How about batting one of the very worst hitters in all of baseball vs. LHP in the leadoff spot all season? How many runs might that have cost?
Game won by former Mets farmhand Keppel.
Winning run scored by Gomez, a player in the Santana trade.
Winning hit by Casila, who the Twins thought was ready to take Luis Castillo's place.
Winning manager is former Mets utility infielder Ron Gardenhire, owner of Tigger the cat.
Also, the turf. That grounder he got was a game-ending 4-6-3 in any other stadium.
His first career win, in fact. How often has THAT happened in Game 163?
In 2008, the winning pitcher in Game 163 was John Danks.
In 2009, the winning pitcher in Game 163 was Bobby Keppel. His first career win.
This was also the case for the 2007 Phillies. (except for the "game 163" part, of course)
1) Polanco. Struck out with first and third and none out then misplayed a double play into a game tying single.
2) Raburn: misplayed what - at best - would have been a single into a triple.
3) Laird: Ended the ninth and twelth with strike outs. Had a horrible bunt attempt.
4) Leyland: Should probably be #1. Bringing in Miner was a mistake (it's always a mistake unless you're up or down by 3 runs). Pulling Porcello was a mistake. Not pinch hitting for Laird was a mistake. Leaving Rodney in too long was a mistake. Not pinch running for Cabrera was a mistake.
Most of all, bringing in one of your worst pitchers (Miner) in ANY situation in a one game playoff is stupidity. It reminds me of Dusty Baker in 2003, "well, he's our 6th inning guy, so he comes in in the 6th inning." You've got Lyon in the pen, or even Jackson. IT'S ONE GAME OR NOTHING, JIM! Miner is a bad pitcher, why should he be anywhere near the field when you're sitting on a one run lead?
Ridiculous.
In 2006, the Twins took sole lead of the division for the first time all year on the last regularly scheduled game of the regular season. That had never happened before in history. This is almost the same thing, but today wasn't a regularly scheduled game (which could also be said for the 1951 Dodgers, 1978 Yanks and other teams I'm sure).
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