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1. Gamingboy Posted: August 15, 2011 at 07:31 PM (#3900494)Nobody important, this is basically a dump.
Delmon's turning 26 in September. Leyland's probably about the best manager he could play for at this point if he hopes to have a career going forward; he's going to get every chance to produce.
-- MWE
Who's the next Twins player traded? Nathan, Capps, Pavano?
Francoeur beats both of them.
From June 9 to now Young has hit .313/.360/.447 in 161 PA.
This is all part of a vast conspiracy to make my head explode, obviously?
Swinging at everything in the same zip code is not a prudent strategy against MLB pitching. You can't keep getting yourself out on a regular basis and be successful.
For a slow power hitter, a complete inability to consistently to pull the ball and/or hit it in the air is another problem.
#13 - Didn't Vladdy disprove that hypothesis years ago?
The exception doesn't prove the rule. How many Vladdys have there been?
Has there been a more disappointing position prospect (non-injury variety) since Jefferies?
Fairly early in that season (I believe it was around May) Young suddenly went from showing the good discipline he had the year before to hacking away at everything. Personally I've always believed it was an intentional decision on his part, trying to produce flashy results (like a high BA) instead of being a smart hitter. It worked of course since he was significantly more talented than almost all the pitchers he faced, he could swing at anything and often put it in play for a hit. He was always extremely impatient to get to the majors and probably was doing what he thought would get him noticed the most and force the team's hand.
You mean the guy who got beat out by a guy with a .712 OPS in AAA? Freddie G. needs to get Heyward back in the line-up, as Constanza is going to turn into a pumpkin any minute now.
In the spirit of the thread, I fixed that for you.
I have fond memories of Jefferies from '93-'94, but he only had about three seasons where he was even worthy of being an ML starter. That's still better than Delmon Young will ever be, but I think most of us were expecting Jefferies to be the 2B version of Tony Gwynn when he was shredding minor-league pitching as a teenager.
Heyward just turned 22 and has 6+ WAR in fewer than 1,000 PAs; we're probably safe in excluding him from the Patterson/Jefferies/Young discussion.
This post made me think about Wilton Guerrero. Wilton was born on October 24, 1974. Vladimir was born on February 9, 1975. How did this happen? Was their father a polygamist?
So a woman can only get pregnant while in wedlock?
I don't see where you get that. He was a deserving starter for most of his career.
Jeffries hit .342/.408/.485 in 1993, through age 27 he played 976 games with an OPS+ of 116
since he was a prospect the following players have been among those ranked #1-3 by BA:
3. Brandon Wood, ss, Angels
2. B.J. Upton ss, Devil Rays
2. Rocco Baldelli, of, Devil Rays
3. Hank Blalock, 3b, Rangers (Jeffries accumulated twice the WAR)
2. Corey Patterson, of, Cubs
1. Ben Grieve, of, Athletics
2. Ruben Rivera, of, Yankees
3. Jeffrey Hammonds, of, Orioles
1. Brien Taylor, lhp, Yankees
2. Todd Van Poppel, rhp, Athletics
3. Roger Salkeld, rhp, Mariners
1. Brien Taylor, lhp, Yankees
2. Todd Van Poppel, rhp, Athletics
3. Roger Salkeld, rhp, Mariners
(Ok, Taylor and Salkeld were injured, but BA had them 1-2-3 one year* ouch)
Let's say Wilton was the child of both husband and wife. That makes Vlad the child of husband and mistress. But it seems like they were raised together, which means that either the mistress was part of the family too, or she gave up her child and the wife was happy to raise the bastard Vlad as one of her own. Obviously things might have been more complicated than this. But it seems like an unusual arrangement.
Not counting the strike-shortened '95 season, he had exactly two years with >2 WAR. He was a pretty good hitter with awful defense as a Met and Royal, very good hitter with ok defense as a Cardinal (which accounts for two of his three good years, the other coming with the Mets in 1990), and then mediocre-to-bad hitter with average defense during an era of exploding offense.
Take away July 2010 (.434/.455/.736), and 2010 doesn't look too much different than any other year he's had, on August 1, 2010 he was at .335/.367/.551, last 365 days he's been .262/.302/.389
You're not watching enough "Modern Family".
From 1989-1998 there were 1094 player years with >=2 WAR, 109.4 per year, a bit more than 4 per team- a
"deserving starter" is someone who can generate 1.2 or 1.5 WAR, 26-30 teams , someone's gotta be #26
>2 WAR is defined as average. You should not equate this with "worthy starter."
Or, what #34 said.
I'll concede that he was a deserving starter for bad ballclubs for about a half-dozen years, though I don't think it takes away from the greater argument that his career was a significant disappointment given his prospect standing.
Disappointment depends not only on performance, but expectation. Whereas other 17-WAR players can be considered successes given expectations--Scutaro and Ibanez are in this same bracket--Jefferies was being hyped as the next big thing in the same way that Griffey and Rodriguez were just a few years later. We can retroactively attribute that hype to Beckett or the NY press, but Jefferies had three years of legitimately amazing minor-league numbers as a 17-19 year old. Outside of his one great year in St. Louis, the career he produced was a disappointment given his HOF talent and expectations.
Long labor.
Very poetic...right up through "Delmon." Try a little harder, Prof, you're almost there.
He can't run, he can't catch, he has a terrible approach at the plate and his brother is Dmitri. Why did I ever think he was going to be a good player for the Twins...
In 1991 I count 4 NL second basemen with a WAR over 2.0. By my reckoning in a league of 12 teams you ought to be able to at least 6-8 worthy starters. Jefferies was young and talented coming off a very good year. He would have started for many teams in the league that year, and not just the bad ones. Both NL division winners that year would probably have started Jefferies.
Isn't Delwyn Young a Young brother? If not, why not?
I conceded that Jefferies had a brief window in which he was, at best, a mediocre starter. I'm aware that you're arguing against what you perceive to be a "reflexive and inaccurate" assertion, but you are belaboring your semantic point and ignoring the larger argument regarding Jefferies' career. If that's not an argument that interests you, so be it.
Then you conceded wrong. Jefferies had at least a six-year window in which he was a worthy major league starter, and for two of those years he was a deserving All-Star.
You don't understand what "mediocre" means.
Similar Batters through 24
1.Carl Yastrzemski (967) *
2.Whitey Lockman (947)
3.Jeff Francoeur (943)
4.Carlos May (941)
5.Chet Lemon (938)
6.Del Ennis (936)
7.Greg Luzinski (935)
8.Joe Vosmik (929)
9.Gus Bell (929)
10.Carl Crawford (929)
Of course, Tris Speaker and Roberto Clemente were #1 and 3 on his age 21 list.
Interesting take. Do tell.
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/mediocre
"Of only average quality."
So your contention is that Jefferies' 1993 season, when he was third in the league in hitting and fifth in OBP, made the All-Star team, was 11th in the league in the MVP voting, tied for 10th in the league among position players in WAR, was "only average"?
As I understand it, you believe that Jefferies was above average for the "brief window" I referenced earlier?
Tell you what--I'll provide Jefferies' WAR totals as a starter, and you can decide whether they are above average in the aggregate.
1989: 1.0 WAR, 559 PA
1990: 2.8 WAR, 659 PA
1991: 1.3 WAR, 539 PA
1992: 1.5 WAR, 657 PA
1993: 5.2 WAR, 652 PA
1994: 1.7 WAR, 447 PA
1995: 0.9 WAR, 521 PA
1996: 1.2 WAR, 446 PA
1997: 0.6 WAR, 531 PA
1998: 0.8 WAR, 520 PA
Is this the above-average, non-mediocre player you imagined?
No kidding. That's when he was playing here. IIRC, another can't-miss superstar who's been missing a whole hell of a lot lately was on the team as well -- B.J. Upton. Scott Kazmir had a few starts as well after being acquired from the Mets.
(The internet implies that Young didn't show up till the next year, actually. But still.)
The answer to your question was obvious, and I was under the assumption that you understood that. Now that you do, feel free to address my previous post: was Gregg Jefferies an above-average player for the previously mentioned brief period of time ("From 1989-1998," as per JSLF's post)?
So your problem is that you have a semantic disagreement over the meaning of "brief," despite the fact that the time period I referenced in response to JSLF's post was clear?
This is obviously incorrect. "At best," Jefferies was a legitimate All-star. You could have just admitted it. But instead you went running to the dictionary, which didn't help anything, and then moved the goal posts by referencing all of his years between '89 and '98.
Like the last few posts I've replied to, your assertion is untrue, irrelevant to my primary argument, and needlessly confrontational. If you're unwilling to admit that Gregg Jefferies was a disappointment and a mediocrity, whether for the "brief" period of time I defined from JSLF's post or not, that's your prerogative--you're welcome to your opinions, even if I disagree with them. If you want to resort to irrelevancies and pedantry, don't be surprised when you get your nose rubbed in the dung you're shoveling. Jefferies was a disappointment. Jefferies was a mediocre starter. Deal with it.
And if Justin and you don't like terse dictionary responses to terse, sarcastic posts, maybe you shouldn't initiate the confrontation.
In the first half (actually about 60%) of his career, 1988-94, Jefferies was an above average player, totaling 14.8 WAR, tying Terry Steinbach for 69th among position players during those years. His OPS+ of 117 was tied for 62nd place out of 225 MLB players with 550 G in that seven-year span. While being brought up for the last 32 games in 1988 and with '94 being a strike-shortened season, he actually was in MLB for 5.9 seasons from 1988 to 1994. It averages to 2.51 WAR per season over that span.
From 1995 on he was basically a disgrace to the uniform and should be refunding most of the $24.5 million he got in salary.
Everybody knew he really couldn't handle shortstop (they he did take major steps forward in AA)
So they decide to give him a year at AAA. And give him a new position -- third base.
That's not quite as nutty as it seems in retrospect, since at the time they were working on a deal with the Braves that centered around Hojo (and others) for Dale Murphy. Fortunately for the Mets the deal fell through. Unfortunately for the Mets that left the opening for Jefferies at second - and he'd never really played there.
Yes, most major league second basemen are converted from SS, but the point is that Jefferries was never really a shortstop either (and had just wated a year at a completely different type of position). Maybe the experiment at second would have gone better if he'sd had a year at the position under his belt. Maybe not, since he was the least gifted second-baseman I can ever recall seeing, but it sure couldn't have hurt any.
Incidentally, anybody disappointed in his early years in New York simply didn't pay attention to his time in Norfolk. His play in his first two years in New York is as nicely in line with his play at AAA as anybody could ask for.
Also worth noting that his time in AA carried its own warnings. Check out the non-intentional walk rate. (510 AB, 31 non intentional walks)
Clearly not impossible to succeed, but something that probably needs to be worked on.
All that to say that he might
That may be a mistake on Vlad's age. A couple places (not sure how reputable) have him as being born in 1976, not 1975 as Wikipedia and BB-ref have.
http://www.mysticgames.com/famouspeople/VladimirGuerrero.htm
http://www.nndb.com/people/180/000163688/
Two possibilities: the birthdate at BB-ref is wrong for Vlad (he's really 1976) or the birthdate for Wilton is wrong (he's really 1973). Could be either because of all the age-gate stuff, right?
In fact, this tidbit from the LA Times article in 1998 on them playing together for the Expos:
http://articles.latimes.com/1998/aug/05/sports/sp-10356
indicates that it is likely that Vlad was born in 1976 and Wilton in 1974 (which is why they would only have been able to be signed two years apart -- Wilton was born late for his signing period, Vlad was born at the beginning of his).
They all huddle around 30 out of the 42 1B with 4000 PA since 1990. Among second basemen I guess I'd go with Vidro/Loretta?
Mediocre with flashes of good I'd call all of them.
I have never disagreed with this, and clearly stated that in #42.
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