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Tuesday, June 12, 2018

Unwritten Rules Lead To Nine Unanswered Runs

Rather than wait for a relatively safe moment to retaliate—with two outs, or, like, tomorrow—and rather than retaliate by, uh, winning the game—Joe Musgrove plunked Chris Owings to lead off the bottom half.

“That’s how the game is played,” Musgrove said of retaliating. “You’re willing to go out and hit somebody, you’ve got to be willing to deal with might come with that, putting the leadoff runner on base, especially late in the game like that. You don’t want to start a rally.”

mathesond Posted: June 12, 2018 at 09:34 AM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: diamondbacks, pirates, unwritten rules

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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5690568)
Duh. Wait for 2 outs. They weren't after a specific guy.
   2. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5690593)
This happened to the Pirates? As Jerry Seinfeld would say, 'That's a shame". Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of ########.
   3. Rally Posted: June 12, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5690612)
I'm shocked that a player is openly admitting to throwing at an opponent, instead of lying about "it just got away" or even just keeping his mouth shut.

That should turn into a nice little unpaid vacation.

   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5690621)
I'm shocked that a player is openly admitting to throwing at an opponent, instead of lying about "it just got away" or even just keeping his mouth shut.

Well he doesn't seem too bright.
   5. PreservedFish Posted: June 12, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5690627)
He's right though, it's kind of chickenshit to only retaliate when it's safe. Either this is an important thing, or it isn't. Obviously it shouldn't be important, and the whole situation is absurd, but I think the logic is at least consistent.
   6. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: June 12, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5690632)
He's right though, it's kind of chickenshit to only retaliate when it's safe.

Why? The idea is to hurt them as much as they hurt you. There's no additional obligation to add a degree of difficulty to the retaliation.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: June 12, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5690671)

This happened to the Pirates? As Jerry Seinfeld would say, 'That's a shame". Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of ########.


Yeah, those dirty bastards keep putting their legs where our lovable scamps want to slide.

   8. Jess Franco Posted: June 12, 2018 at 05:20 PM (#5690706)
Knucklehead.
   9. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 12, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5690729)
Yeah, those dirty bastards keep putting their legs where our lovable scamps want to slide.


Heh. I know as a Cub fan I'm in a bit of a glass house here, but the Pirates have been notorious for this since well before the Cubs became relevant again.
   10. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 12, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5690785)
So, throwing at hitters in this situation will become known as the Musgrove Ritual?
   11. Walt Davis Posted: June 12, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5690903)
This is one of the problems with unwritten rules. If you wrote them down you could add a clause such as "the team with the first violation of a rule detailed in section 5 is not allowed to score more than 5 runs in the inning in which their opponent first applies any of the retaliatory acts allowed under section 6. However, if the team taking retribution has earlier committed a violation under rule 5 subsequent to the original violation by their opponent, then this is considered to be the retaliation and any subsequent act otherwise allowed under section 6 shall not be considered retaliatory and therefore the originally offending team may score as many runs as possible. Similarly, only the first application of an act listed in section 6 is considered justified retaliation and if a second act is committed in the same inning, then the originally offending team may score as many runs as possible. However, if the originally offending team has committed a subsequent violation of section 5 or committed any of the acts listed in section 6 then the retaliating team is allowed as many acts listed in section 6 until things are "evened up" without fear of allowing more than 5 runs in any inning in which a justified retaliatory act is committed unless evening things up would require so many justified retaliatory acts as to require more than 5 runs in an inning, assuming the retaliating team wants to commit all of its retaliabory acts in a single inning."

Then this sort of thing would never happen. :-)
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5690932)
Heh. I know as a Cub fan I'm in a bit of a glass house here, but the Pirates have been notorious for this since well before the Cubs became relevant again.

Haven't the Pirates generally been the recipients of the dirty plays? I'm not going to blame a team for retaliating on what happened to Kang.

You wreck a player's season (and maybe career) on a slide, you better damn well expect to get beaned.
   13. Howie Menckel Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM (#5690936)
Pirates allow 6 more unearned runs in the 1st tonight
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: June 12, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5690943)
Rather than wait for a relatively safe moment to retaliate


A 5-0 lead in the seventh is a relatively safe moment.

And while I suppose it is, I've never really thought of these types of HBPs as true unwritten rules issues, rather than simple retaliation.
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: June 12, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5690955)
Haven't the Pirates generally been the recipients of the dirty plays? I'm not going to blame a team for retaliating on what happened to Kang.


Pirates generally are among the league leaders in hit by pitches under Hurdle, a big portion of that is because they ask crappy inexperienced young pitchers to pitch inside when they don't have control, so it's not true head hunting, but it's been pissing off the NL central for several years because it's avoidable but they have refused to make any concessions to the quality of their pitchers.

since 2011 Pirates 490 hbp as a team, Reds are second with 474, Cubs are 6th with 432, Cardinals are 9th with 419, and Brewers are 28th with 358.....
   16. Bote Man Posted: June 13, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5690966)
And while I suppose it is, I've never really thought of these types of HBPs as true unwritten rules issues, rather than simple retaliation.

That's the beauty of unwritten rules, they say whatever a guy wants them to say. You could look it up.
   17. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:01 AM (#5691006)
<i.Haven't the Pirates generally been the recipients of the dirty plays?</i>

You're thinking of 2 plays in the past 4 seasons, so that's far from comprehensive.

Musgrove is the dude with the illegal slide into 2nd on Baez the day after that Rizzo slide. Plenty of people defended him then because he was a pitcher who "probably doesn't know how to slide" (and also because it wasn't dirty IMO), but based on this quote I'm willing the waive any doubt that his slide wasn't intentional (but again, not dirty).
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:05 AM (#5691044)
since 2011 Pirates 490 hbp as a team, Reds are second with 474, Cubs are 6th with 432, Cardinals are 9th with 419, and Brewers are 28th with 358.....

So 55 extra HBP above the division average over the course of 7.3 seasons? That doesn't seem hugely significant.

Pirates generally are among the league leaders in hit by pitches under Hurdle, a big portion of that is because they ask crappy inexperienced young pitchers to pitch inside when they don't have control, so it's not true head hunting, but it's been pissing off the NL central for several years because it's avoidable but they have refused to make any concessions to the quality of their pitchers.

If what you say is true, then the problem is the rest of the division. Bad pitchers need to work inside even more than good ones. The Pirates would be absolute idiots to tell pitchers with spotty control not to throw inside.

Batters need to re-learn how to get out of the way. They feel like they have the right to dig in, and dive over the plate. If you do that, you will get hit. As long as the pitcher isn't aiming at you, it's your fault.
   19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:06 AM (#5691047)
You're thinking of 2 plays in the past 4 seasons, so that's far from comprehensive.

True, but one of them was a severe injury, and the other was blatantly dirty.

Musgrove is the dude with the illegal slide into 2nd on Baez the day after that Rizzo slide. Plenty of people defended him then because he was a pitcher who "probably doesn't know how to slide" (and also because it wasn't dirty IMO), but based on this quote I'm willing the waive any doubt that his slide wasn't intentional (but again, not dirty).

Agree. Odds are very high that Musgrove was retaliating.
   20. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:08 AM (#5691050)
Agree. Odds are very high that Musgrove was retaliating.

For what? I'll remind you that Musgrove had been in the Pirates clubhouse for about 3 days at the time.

(And possibly on the basepaths for the first time in his professional career)
   21. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5691056)
Batters need to re-learn how to get out of the way


One of the Pirate announcers noted that Harrison was hit with pitches 23 times last year, as evidence that he needs protection from his pitchers.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5691061)
For what? I'll remind you that Musgrove had been in the Pirates clubhouse for about 3 days at the time.


To prove that he's "got their backs."

One of the Pirate announcers noted that Harrison was hit with pitches 23 times last year, as evidence that he needs protection from his pitchers.


That's a hell of an oulier. Typically guys who get plunked 23 times in a year, like a Rizzo, pile up big totals every year because it's just the way they hit.

Batters need to re-learn how to get out of the way. They feel like they have the right to dig in, and dive over the plate. If you do that, you will get hit. As long as the pitcher isn't aiming at you, it's your fault.


No, they just can't get pissed about it when it happens. If they're willing to live with the pain (and possible injury) that comes with a HBP, that's perfectly fine, and the pitcher needs to learn that if he goes inside against Player X, it's going to be a free base.

   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5691069)
No, they just can't get pissed about it when it happens. If they're willing to live with the pain (and possible injury) that comes with a HBP, that's perfectly fine, and the pitcher needs to learn that if he goes inside against Player X, it's going to be a free base.

OK, sure. But that's recognizing that it's your fault.
   24. Rally Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:58 AM (#5691075)
That's a hell of an oulier. Typically guys who get plunked 23 times in a year, like a Rizzo, pile up big totals every year because it's just the way they hit.


Someone who gets hit that often I just assume it's part of their OBP strategy. David Ortiz seems like a guy who would be an HBP target: 1. He's big, so there's a lot more surface area to hit than you have with Josh Harrison 2. He's the top power hitter on the team, so if the Red Sox ding your slugger don't the unwritten rules say you must throw at Ortiz 3. He dominated balls out over the plate, pitchers could get him out if they threw inside (but it was a very fine line, he wouldn't swing at one too inside and he'd crush something that got too much plate).

But Ortiz didn't like the HBP and got out of the way when needed, he generally got hit only one or two times a year.

Garret Anderson was even more extreme: From 1999-2007 he came to the plate over 5500 times and was hit only once.
   25. bunyon Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5691077)
Batters need to re-learn how to get out of the way. They feel like they have the right to dig in, and dive over the plate. If you do that, you will get hit. As long as the pitcher isn't aiming at you, it's your fault.


No, they just can't get pissed about it when it happens. If they're willing to live with the pain (and possible injury) that comes with a HBP, that's perfectly fine, and the pitcher needs to learn that if he goes inside against Player X, it's going to be a free base.


I was a decentish amateur player until my last year of American Legion ball. My coach changed my approach to the dive in strategy. It was amazing. I hit .450, led the team in homers, just roped the ball all summer long. I also got hit 13 times in 64 games. Mostly on the upper left arm and elbow. Hurt like hell.

If you dive in, you can't get out of the way of balls that far off the plate. I wish they'd make more of an effort at ruling those pitches balls rather than HBP. A guy who dives in and then scrunches up at the last nanosecond isn't trying to get out of the way.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5691083)
Someone who gets hit that often I just assume it's part of their OBP strategy.


I think that's almost always the case; but there could simply be some guys who aren't as skilled at avoiding the pitch the way Papi most certainly was. He didn't like getting hit. So he didn't.

If you dive in, you can't get out of the way of balls that far off the plate. I wish they'd make more of an effort at ruling those pitches balls rather than HBP. A guy who dives in and then scrunches up at the last nanosecond isn't trying to get out of the way.


I've beaten the subject to death, but I still haven't seen a good argument why it's on the batter to bail out the pitcher when the pitcher throws the ball inside the batter's box. Now, if a batter gets hit with a pitch and the pitch is located outside the box, then it should simply be a ball or strike, depending on its location. But if a pitcher throws a ball in the place where the batter is entitled to be, he should not be required to take evasive measures to avoid the HBP.
   27. Rally Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5691086)
The HBP was part of my OBP strategy. I just wasn't that good of a hitter to turn down a free base. Part of comes from having Brian Downing as my favorite player growing up. Brian took his share of HBP. As far as HBP strategy I copied Don Baylor - on an inside pitch turn your shoulder in and your head back - that way if you do get hit it won't be in the face.
   28. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5691088)
I've beaten the subject to death, but I still haven't seen a good argument why it's on the batter to bail out the pitcher when the pitcher throws the ball inside the batter's box. Now, if a batter gets hit with a pitch and the pitch is located outside the box, then it should simply be a ball or strike, depending on its location. But if a pitcher throws a ball in the place where the batter is entitled to be, he should not be required to take evasive measures to avoid the HBP.


+1
   29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5691093)
I've beaten the subject to death, but I still haven't seen a good argument why it's on the batter to bail out the pitcher when the pitcher throws the ball inside the batter's box. Now, if a batter gets hit with a pitch and the pitch is located outside the box, then it should simply be a ball or strike, depending on its location. But if a pitcher throws a ball in the place where the batter is entitled to be, he should not be required to take evasive measures to avoid the HBP.

Because a 90+ MPH pitch hurts. The hitter doesn't have to get out of the way, but if he doesn't try, he can't complain about getting hit. Take your base; that's the assigned "punishment" for the pitcher. Pitchers can't always put the ball where they want it.
   30. Howie Menckel Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5691094)
Mets MGR Calloway got his first ejection last night when they made Nimmo go back to the plate because he didn't try to get out of the way of the pitch (so no HBP, but the OBP machine then got BB anyway).

has Rizzo ever been called for that?
   31. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:31 AM (#5691098)
Because a 90+ MPH pitch hurts. The hitter doesn't have to get out of the way, but if he doesn't try, he can't complain about getting hit. Take your base; that's the assigned "punishment" for the pitcher. Pitchers can't always put the ball where they want it.


How on earth does is this a response to what I've written?

   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5691101)
How on earth does is this a response to what I've written?

You asked why is the hitter expected to take evasive action on a pitch out of the strike zone. I answered. It's because hitters ##### and moan about HBP. They ##### and moan because it hurts.

Otherwise, I don't get your point.
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5691116)
You asked why is the hitter expected to take evasive action on a pitch out of the strike zone. I answered. It's because hitters ##### and moan about HBP.


I already said they need to stop ######## about HBP. But that has nothing to do with my point.

Otherwise, I don't get your point.


Clearly.

Batters should not be required, by rule, to have to try to avoid the pitch. It's a dumb rule that adds needless confusion to the play.

If you get hit by a pitch on one thrown inside the batter's box, you get your base. If you want to get out of the way, you're welcome to. But you're not obligated to, as Nimmo was last night. Inside the batter's box is where you're supposed to be. You shouldn't be required to bail out the pitcher for his wildness.

If you get hit by a pitch on a body part that's extending outside the batter's box, you don't get a free base. That's where the pitcher is supposed to be throwing.
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5691128)
Batters should not be required, by rule, to have to try to avoid the pitch. It's a dumb rule that adds needless confusion to the play.

OK, now I get you.

I think the reason for the rule is that you want to avoid injuries. You want to created a disincentive for the batter to get hit.
   35. JAHV Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5691270)
For what? I'll remind you that Musgrove had been in the Pirates clubhouse for about 3 days at the time.

(And possibly on the basepaths for the first time in his professional career)


You really don't think that slide was intentional? Musgrove might have been on base for the first time in his pro career, but he'd had plenty of times on base since he started playing the game. And he obviously knows the unwritten rules intimately. If one of their guys takes your guy out with a hard slide, you do the same. I think the timing and form of that slide is a little too coincidental. Musgrove knew what he was doing.
   36. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5691277)
I think he was intentionally trying to break up the DP. I have no doubt about that, actually, it's obvious. What I doubt is that he was exacting revenge for a play that occurred in some previous year.
   37. drdr Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:11 PM (#5691280)
I would prefer change in rules:
hit batter in strike zone - strike
hit batter between the strike zone and batter's box or above/below the strike zone - ball
ball through batter's box - immediate BB (no need for HBP) - no incentive for batter to lean into pitch
-especially satisfying for intentional HBPs - if batter can evade the pitch, he gets 1st base and the whole stadium gets to laugh at the pitcher
   38. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5691281)
I would prefer change in rules:
hit batter in strike zone - strike
hit batter between the strike zone and batter's box or above/below the strike zone - ball
ball through batter's box - immediate BB (no need for HBP) - no incentive for batter to lean into pitch
-especially satisfying for intentional HBPs - if batter can evade the pitch, he gets 1st base and the whole stadium gets to laugh at the pitcher


That's already the rule.
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5691285)
ball through batter's box - immediate BB (no need for HBP).


I think that would cause offense to skyrocket, not just from the automatic BBs, but it would basically force pitchers away from the inside of the plate at all.
   40. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5691303)
I think he was intentionally trying to break up the DP. I have no doubt about that, actually, it's obvious. What I doubt is that he was exacting revenge for a play that occurred in some previous year.

You mean the day before.
   41. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5691305)
I think that would cause offense to skyrocket, not just from the automatic BBs, but it would basically force pitchers away from the inside of the plate at all.
...which would encourage hitters to crowd the plate and dive in even more to cover the outside half, and you'd probably reach the same equilibrium on the number of HBPs, just slightly closer to the plate.
   42. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5691308)
You mean the day before.


It's always possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
   43. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5691309)
...which would encourage hitters to crowd the plate and dive in even more to cover the outside half, and you'd probably reach the same equilibrium on the number of HBPs, just slightly closer to the plate.


Pssst. Nobody cares how many HBPs there are.
   44. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5691392)
Pssst. Nobody cares how many HBPs there are.
Well, I know this, and I don't care, but it seemed like part of the subtext of the rule changes suggested in #37.

However I may also have no idea what I'm talking about. ;)
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5691396)
However I may also have no idea what I'm talking about. ;)

Look, if people who don't know what they're talking about stopped posting stuff, the entire internet would close down within a week.

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