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Tuesday, January 22, 2013

USAToday: White: Phillies sign outfielder Delmon Young

Oh, for God’s sake.

Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 22, 2013 at 04:36 PM | 57 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 26-year-olds who look 36, phillies, stupid ideas, tigers

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   1. JRVJ Posted: January 22, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4352759)
I know Young is bad, but it's only $750K.
   2. eddieot Posted: January 22, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4352767)
Cloudy with a chance of ugly.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 22, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4352771)
I knew Houston was moving to the AL and needed to get a DH, but I didn't know Philly was as well.
   4. Poster Nutbag Posted: January 22, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4352774)
I think this is a good deal for the Phils, in all honesty. He can certainly be worth the $750K. Filler is filler, but he's a tick above average for "filler", no?
   5. eddieot Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4352779)
I will be happy if Young outproduces each Mets outfielder this season. Not that long a shot actually.
   6. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4352782)
As soon as I typed "st", "stupid ideas" popped up. And yet there don't seem to be any other articles in the "stupid ideas" newsbeat.

What are the Phillies going to do with all these outfielders? Each of them has only one skill, as Edmundo has pointed out in two threads already. And why does Delmon Young look as old as Juan Pierre?
   7. AROM Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4352795)
Young is only 27. Who in the world imagined this would be his first free agent contract, considering his top 3 prospect rank by Baseball America each year from 2004-2007?
   8. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4352802)
Until the fates prove it's not happening, every time Delmon Young comes up I will announce that he is on an march to 2000 hits and very little value. He's got to be a bit worried that he's gotten such a mediocre contract, especially after his big ALCS and World Series,, so he's working hard. This is his age-27 year. He's primed to have a (relatively) big year -- a .295 average, a SLG-heavy OPS+ in the 110 range, 90-100 RBIs. That's going to get him a three-year deal somewhere stupid, and at the end of that he'll be 31 with 1600 hits and 4 WAR. By then he'll be a crafty veteran who overcame his earlier slackitude (so the story will go), which will mean several years as a part-timer and the 400 extra hits he needs. It's going to happen!
   9. Ron J2 Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4352807)
#7 AAA at 19. But still a .303 OBP is something of a red flag.

   10. steagles Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:21 PM (#4352808)
the phillies need offense, and there is a not-insignificant possibility that young could be a really good hitter for them.

   11. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4352817)
I guess buying low is usually good, and this is certainly that.

With Mayberry, Revere, Young, Rollins, Howard and Brown the Phillies could have a lineup of six black guys (one of them DH). That seems notable in this day and age.
   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4352818)
Worst OPS ever, 2000 career hits

1. Larry Bowa - 71
2. Omar Vizquel - 82
2. Luis Aparacio - 82
2. Rabbit Maranville - 82
5. Orlando Cabrera - 84
5. Bill Mazeroski - 84
7. Juan Pierre - 85
7. Frank White - 85
9. Ozzie Smith - 87
10.Garry Templeton - 87

The worst corner outfielder is BJ Surhoff at 98, and he spent a lot of time at catcher. Next is Garret Anderson at 102.

I believe in you Delmon.
   13. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4352820)
I thought he was much older then this, had no idea he is younger then me.
   14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:30 PM (#4352824)
Filler is filler, but he's a tick above average for "filler", no?
Nope. Young has been above replacement level for only one season in his career. He can't field, he doesn't run, and he hits like a middle infielder. Darin Ruf would surely, surely deserve playing time ahead of him, as would a number of other players in the Phillies system whom I've never heard of. Young is terrible.

Now, Young was kind of good for a season once, and he was once a great prospect. But based on his actual results, Young gives you nothing that a couple dozen guys in AA and AAA can't provide without the baggage and at half the price.
   15. Poster Nutbag Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4352830)
#14 - Thanks, I was genuinely curious. Seemed decent enough, but I hear they may be considering playing him RF regularly. Ouch.

I retract. This is awful!
   16. Ron J2 Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4352834)
#13 His age is what made him such a hot prospect. Pretty clearly could handle AA at 19.

Even here there was a warning sign. Only 20 UIBB in 330 AB. Still, you can live with a line of .336/.386/.582 and 25 SB in 84 games.
   17. The Non-Catching Molina (sjs1959) Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4352839)
   18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4352843)
I have no sources on this other than my eyeballs, but Delmon Young looks like a guy who has totally let himself go physically. He looks 35 because he's got a fat gut and a couple chins. His "five tool" talent has reduced down to maybe two or three over his career.
   19. boteman Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:46 PM (#4352852)
I must have been mis-rememberizing some tweets from a week or so ago that the Nationals had (inexplicably) signed Young to a minor league deal.

I can't tell you how happy I am to be wrong about this!
   20. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4352856)
Was Delmon Young a legitimate #1 overall talent when he was drafted, or was he never really that good?
   21. boteman Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:49 PM (#4352860)
#18 - That must run in the family. His big brother, Dmitri the diabetic, was seen in the off-season leading to his final stint with the Nats imbibing heartily in alcoholic beverages. I understand that this is a big no-no for his diabetic condition. Dmitri definitely went from "almost svelt" the prior season to looking like Santa Claus by the following season.
   22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4352871)
Was Delmon Young a legitimate #1 overall talent when he was drafted, or was he never really that good?
Young's minor league track record is fantastic, at least to start. He debuted straight into the Sally League at 18 and hit 388/538. The Rays jumped him a level to AA, where he hit 386/582 in a half-season at 19 before being promoted to AAA. His promotion to AAA perhaps signals the birth of the statistical Delm_n we all know, as he hit only 303/447. Still, for the 19-year-old in the International League, that's not bad. Room to grow. He was better the next year (341/474). Then came the major league career.
   23. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 22, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4352872)
#18 - That must run in the family. His big brother, Dmitri the diabetic, was seen in the off-season leading to his final stint with the Nats imbibing heartily in alcoholic beverages. I understand that this is a big no-no for his diabetic condition. Dmitri definitely went from "almost svelt" the prior season to looking like Santa Claus by the following season.


In fairness to Dmitri, he got that #### pretty well under control once he was out of baseball.

Better late than never.
   24. Delicious Cake Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4352875)
   25. alkeiper Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:01 PM (#4352879)
Hope is that Young starts season on DL.

The 2002-04 #1 picks have combined for 0.3 WAR. Ouch!
   26. zonk Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:04 PM (#4352884)
My favorite "boy, he got fat story" about any baseball player still remains Kevin Mitchell late in his career (Indians, I think?) breaking a training bike because he tried to pop a wheelie on it.
   27. AROM Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:04 PM (#4352885)
I must have been mis-rememberizing some tweets from a week or so ago that the Nationals had (inexplicably) signed Young to a minor league deal.


I think they signed Delwyn Young.
   28. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:05 PM (#4352886)
Was Delmon Young a legitimate #1 overall talent when he was drafted, or was he never really that good?


He was 9th in OPS in the Sallie League at age 18, everyone above him was older, just 2 other teens, Milledge and Ian Stewart
2 other guys whose eventual MLB performances were disappointing.

Then the next year he was awesome in AA at age 19, second in OPS in the Southern League, right behind Hermida...

I think that prospects are usually judged relative to their "cohort," but that the quality of cohorts can vary- the best guy in one year's cohort may be no better than another year's 5th through 10th...
I think Delmon Young at the time may have been the best guy in his cohort, but maybe just due to random fluctuation, his cohort just happened to be unusually weak, something not evident until one guy after another in that cohort failed to meet expectations-

looking at the Sallie League and Southern League leaders for young guys with production comparable to Young you get a lot of that, Milledge, Stewart, Hermida, Chris Young (hitter not pitcher)
plus you see that he never really developed from the day he entered pro ball, K/BB stagnant, never developed any power beyond what he came into the Sallie League with.

If he'd played MLB from age 18, I'm sure his stat lines would look just like most of his MLB career- he was almost an MLB caliber hitter at ages 18/19, trouble is that for most of his MLB career he's been just that, almost an MLB caliber hitter
   29. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4352891)
I think Delmon Young at the time may have been the best guy in his cohort, but maybe just due to random fluctuation, his cohort just happened to be unusually weak, something not evident until one guy after another in that cohort failed to meet expectations-
Did it? The BA 2006 list that Young topped includes Justin Upton (#2), Justin Verlander (#8), Matt Cain (#10) and Prince Fielder (#11).

The 2002 top 10 has a bunch of duds as well (Burroughs #4, Cruz #6, Henson #9). Just eyeballing, 2006 looks pretty normal to me.
   30. WillYoung Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4352893)
_elm_n is a horrendously terrible player. He has two-skills: a strong, accurate arm AND the ability to hit left-handed pitchers who can't throw faster than 86 mph. He makes Raul Ibanez look like Geraldo Parra in the corner outfield as he takes terrible routes and avoids the warning track like the plague. Perhaps the only redeeming thing about _elm_n from his time in MN is that I had multiple friends whose girlfriends bumped into him at Twilight movies. As in, he saw the same Twilight movie more than once. For some reason, that completely cracks me up.
   31. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:23 PM (#4352902)
Maybe he was there to prey on teenage girls, which would be less funny.
   32. Squash Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4352904)
Who in the world imagined this would be his first free agent contract, considering his top 3 prospect rank by Baseball America each year from 2004-2007?

I have been wrong on many many prospects as we all have, but I didn't think Young was going to be much in the majors. Too much hackin'. I was surprised everyone one was so willing to look past that, but he had a shiny batting average and Baseball America was still trying to fight the OBP war at the time.
   33. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4352913)
Worst OPS ever, 2000 career hits

1. Larry Bowa - 71
2. Omar Vizquel - 82
2. Luis Aparacio - 82
2. Rabbit Maranville - 82
5. Orlando Cabrera - 84
5. Bill Mazeroski - 84
7. Juan Pierre - 85
7. Frank White - 85
9. Ozzie Smith - 87
10.Garry Templeton - 87

A little respect - there are 4 Hall of Famers on that list. Hopefully, only 4.
   34. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: January 22, 2013 at 07:04 PM (#4352940)
Amaro: Hope is Young will be everyday RF.


2000 hits. I'm tellin ya!
   35. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: January 22, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4352949)
I have no sources on this other than my eyeballs, but Delmon Young looks like a guy who has totally let himself go physically. He looks 35 because he's got a fat gut and a couple chins.


This is part of what makes me hopeful for him having a long and unproductive career. He's still young enough to be scared straight and become a near-cromulent ballplayer, but not young enough to actually reclaim some of the tools lost to time and Big Macs.

Worst OPS ever, 2000 career hits


That list is missing a few, for some reason. This is everyone with 50% of his time at RF/LF/1B/DH with 2000 hits and an OPS+ of 105 or lower.

Rk            Player OPS+    H WAR/pos
1      Charlie Grimm   94 2299    10.6
2      Patsy Donovan   97 2256    15.0
3       B
.JSurhoff   98 2326    30.3
4       Bill Buckner  100 2715    11.8
5    Garret Anderson  102 2529    20.9
6          Joe Kuhel  104 2212    21.8
7       Ruben Sierra  105 2152    13.0
8         Joe Carter  105 2184    15.6
9     Stuffy McInnis  105 2405    29.6 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 1/22/2013.

EDIT: I can see Young as having the second half of Ruben Sierra's career -- 254/305/428 and 992 hits. That leaves Delmon 53 hits short of 2000. Give him a little more average and fewer walks and he gets very close to the magic number.
   36. crict Posted: January 22, 2013 at 09:01 PM (#4353000)
The 2002 World junior Championships were in my hometown (Sherbrooke, Quebec) and the US team was loaded with prospects that were about to be drafted, with Young and Milledge the two stars. Looking back now, that team was loaded with future busts: among hitters, Ian Stewart and Jarrod Saltalamacchia are the best. Chris Lubanski was a major bust. Among pitchers, Chad Billingsley and Ian Kennedy did well, but Jeff Allison is a terrible story.

As far as I know, only two other players reached the majors, both from Canada: Adam Loewen and Chris Leroux. Yulieski Gourriel is very good in Cuba I believe. Japan and DR did not participate. I don't recognize any names from South Korea, Venezuela and Panama.
   37. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: January 22, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4353013)
and at the end of that he'll be 31 with 1600 hits and 4 WAR. By then he'll be a crafty veteran who overcame his earlier slackitude (so the story will go), which will mean several years as a part-timer and the 400 extra hits he needs. It's going to happen!


The gold standard for this is Doc Cramer: 2700 hits, 4.2 WAR. The next lowest WAR for 2000+ hits is Charlie Grim with 2300 hits and 10.6 WAR. The next worst WAR for 2700+ its is 11.8 for Bill Buckner
   38. Darren Posted: January 22, 2013 at 10:22 PM (#4353026)
This is not so bad. It's not like the signed Jeremy Hermida for $4M. They are taking a flier on a guy who hasn't lived up to expectations and basically paying league minimum. Good gamble.
   39. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 22, 2013 at 11:10 PM (#4353045)
It's an exaggeration - but not much of one, IMO - to say that what happened to Delmon Young was Elijah Dukes.

Young and Dukes were teammates at Charleston in 2004 until Dukes was promoted (somewhat mysteriously, since he wasn't playing particularly well) to Bakersfield in mid-season. In 2005 they were teammates again at Montgomery; this time it was Young that was promoted in mid-season and Dukes who stayed behind even though Dukes was probably deserving of a promotion as well, certainly more so than a year earlier. In 2006 Young and Dukes were together again in Durham, along with BJ Upton, and on the field the three of them were (a) inseparable and (b) completely separated from the rest of their teammates. I attended about 30 games in Durham that year and it was obvious that Young, Dukes, and Upton were going their own way. All three of them had off-the-field issues in Durham (and that's not even considering what happened on the field with Young). It got to a point where at the end of the year Bulls' management reportedly insisted on a housecleaning and assurances that they'd never have that type of situation again; the Rays nearly lost the affiliation.

-- MWE
   40. Textbook Editor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:14 AM (#4353070)

Amaro: Hope is Young will be everyday RF. Then says he may start year on DL.


And some people keep defending Amaro.

I don't care if he signed for a ham sandwich and offered to wash Amaro's car 3 times a week. Starting Young in RF every day is asinine and thought process that led to this decision is/was asinine. I hope he gets 500 ABs this year so I can read a steady stream of articles about how his veteran presence helped stabilize the youngsters in the OF... all the while seeing only passing mention of his .290 OBP.

Asinine.
   41. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:00 AM (#4353087)
My favorite "boy, he got fat story" about any baseball player still remains Kevin Mitchell late in his career (Indians, I think?)

Your story checks out.
   42. caprules Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:06 AM (#4353105)
_elm_n is a horrendously terrible player.


I scanned the first comments hoping someone would use this name. Too bad it didn't catch on here, I find it funny. Yes, its just a ripoff of _ason Kidd, but it works.
   43. Benji Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:32 AM (#4353109)
Horrendously terrible, but still preferred over Brown, who is a monumental bust. And sadly, Young would be, by far, the best outfielder on the Mets.
   44. Walt Davis Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:28 AM (#4353117)
I don't care if he signed for a ham sandwich and offered to wash Amaro's car 3 times a week.

Delmon Young just earned a spot on my ballclub!
   45. deputydrew Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:59 AM (#4353122)
Young would be, by far, the best outfielder on the Mets.


Lucas Duda has more offensive upside and is as bad on D. I'd prefer him to Delmon.
   46. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4353158)
Benji, I want to see Brown healthy and given a real shot before I declare him a bust. If there was ever a year to find out, it's this one, but Amaro is behaving as though he agrees with you.

We might see the all under-100 OPS+ OF this year, with cumulative below average defense. Uncle Chollie has not shown the ability to maximize the talents of limited players. This team is the antithesis of a throw 'em out there and let 'em play team that UC handles best.
   47. DL from MN Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4353206)
a strong, accurate arm


I saw him throw his ten-bouncer in the playoffs last year and I think the arm is shot now. He's a RH pinch hitter.
   48. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM (#4353274)
We might see the all under-100 OPS+ OF this year, with cumulative below average defense. Uncle Chollie has not shown the ability to maximize the talents of limited players. This team is the antithesis of a throw 'em out there and let 'em play team that UC handles best.


Who was the manager who won all those games with the Tigers platooning at almost every position? Can we get him in as a coach specializing in playing time optimization?

Oh, it was Billy Martin. Never mind.
   49. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4353343)
I saw him throw his ten-bouncer in the playoffs last year and I think the arm is shot now. He's a RH pinch hitter.

"Delmon Young, Zero Tool Player"
   50. ColonelTom Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4353353)
Delmon Young has played in the majors for 5 1/2 seasons. Career totals:

FanGraphs: 0.8 WAR
B-R: -3.1 WAR

   51. Squash Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4353380)
Young and Dukes were teammates at Charleston in 2004 until Dukes was promoted (somewhat mysteriously, since he wasn't playing particularly well) to Bakersfield in mid-season. In 2005 they were teammates again at Montgomery; this time it was Young that was promoted in mid-season and Dukes who stayed behind even though Dukes was probably deserving of a promotion as well, certainly more so than a year earlier. In 2006 Young and Dukes were together again in Durham, along with BJ Upton, and on the field the three of them were (a) inseparable and (b) completely separated from the rest of their teammates. I attended about 30 games in Durham that year and it was obvious that Young, Dukes, and Upton were going their own way.

That is an interesting story. BJ has also obviously had his share of questions as well. To me Young's performance issues seem to spring from the same well as his off the field issues - it seems like it all just came so easily for him that he never had to make any adjustments. He never had to refine his approach (i.e. learn some plate discipline) because he was a good enough hitter naturally that he could always succeed just hacking away.
   52. ColonelTom Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4353473)
Tampa Bay's had its share of miscreants over the years, including Josh Hamilton back in his drug-haze days. They've acquired Matt Bush and Josh Lueke in recent years, and three guys in their lower minors got busted for meth last August.
   53. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4353502)
Young would be, by far, the best outfielder on the Mets.


Lucas Duda has more offensive upside and is as bad on D. I'd prefer him to Delmon.


I fail to see how Duda is any WORSE than Delmon
If Kirk Nieuwenhuis is a real 90 OPS+ hitter he's a better MLB OF than Delmon

Do the still have Fred Lewis in their system?
   54. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4353559)
Darin Ruf would surely, surely deserve playing time ahead of him

But think of all of the "Ruf is ready!" headlines Delmon will be saving us from!
   55. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4353616)
But think of all of the "Ruf is ready!" headlines Delmon will be saving us from!

And surely we would have to update the "What, I shudda said DiMaggio?" joke.
   56. steagles Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4353694)
so, _elm_n apparently has up to 600K in weight-related incentives.

   57. Tim D Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:54 PM (#4353704)
I am astonished to see DY get a job w/a non DH team. He is a terrible OF; slow, takes awful routes, won't go near the warning track, etc. His arm, once good, is average at best, WS blooper film NWS. Going to RF to boot is ludicrous. His bat is, well, what you would expect from an average middle IF with a little pop. Delmon is the classic uncoachable loafer. He has all the God-given talent in the world and everything came easily. All his coaches and managers and even his brother told him that talent wasn't enough, that to make it as a big leaguer he would need to work. And he said right and poured himself another cold one. He hasn't done anything with his skills. He still swings at the first pitch constantly, close or not. He's out of shape, gives away ABs like crazy, and generally leaves you pulling your hair out. The Tigers saw him for two months in 2011 and then he turned it on in the playoffs, so they re-upped him for 2012. He was awful all year and then "bore down" again in the post-season. Detroit had seen enough. But to people who haven't had him he is the tease; he could get in shape, he's only 27, he can hit a pitch off his shoe tops 450 feet, WE could be the ones to reach him and get lightning in a bottle, etc. The trouble is it won't happen. To their credit the Phillies got him for cheap. To their discredit, they don't need him, even for free. Some Detroit fans are saying today that hey for 750 Gs we could have kept him for a platoon partner for Dirks. I'd rather have Dirks hit the lefties, thanks anyway.

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