Andy, I have a hard time reconciling these statements of yours:

It's one of the best episodes of all, if for no other reason that it features the two "Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?" guys, one of only three episodes in which they appear

...

whereas Seinfeld's characters are are only slightly exaggerated versions of people you meet every day, full of real personality and not just cartoon figures

Those two street toughs are awful and their appearances marked the moment where Seinfeld went from being about the minutiae of everyday life to being about cartoony absurdity. Don't tell me you like the awful Mandelbaums as well.

As a soon-to-be older guy, what's so damned creepy about older guys interested in younger women?

It's not like we're buying 14-year=olds in India. (Though a creepy guy I once worked with mail-ordered a Filipino.) Or taking sex vacations in Thailand (oops, I've met one of those, too). Or traveling to China because American Women suck... (check again). But then, I've worked with both a murderer and a rapist in the past, so these guys are nothing.

Well, all of you guys will be old someday if you're lucky, and I'm telling you as a 42-year-old male, we never cease to be attracted to the young ones. It's biology.

Doesn't mean we have to act on it, though. Personally, I'm past even wanting to date anyone who's more than a year or two shy of 40. Dating a young woman is pretty ridiculous, but I don't find it creepy.

(Lighbulb) Bill Clinton. That's what freaked people out -- not that he was getting some on the side, but that it was a young intern.

Regarding the workplace thing, as I stated, it's over 90 percent women. If I were in Canada, I guess I wouldn't be working there anymore. I've generally had a rule to steer clear of fellow employees, but I did ask out the one I got bothered about (and calmly accepted her reply that I was too old for her -- I was) and I had a one-time-thing with another one who's older than me but whose body wasn't). It's very difficult to avoid it when the job eats heavily into any potential social life outside of work.

Online dating -- I'm headed back that way. That's where I found the love who couldn't live with me. Still miss her.

Elaine wouldn't be my first choice. I'd go for the massage therapist.

Probably TMI. Apologies to JC.

The safest way to ask somebody out in the workplace these days is the way these things are handled in junior high school: You ask one of your friends to ask one of her friends whether she might be interested in catching a movie with you, and wait for a response to come back through the grapevine. Usually that's enough layers that you can escape unscathed if she's unreceptive, as long as you never make direct eye contact with her again (or more accurately, direct contact between your eyes and any part of her body whatsoever).

sorry for a dumb question. but Up There, how on earth is a male supposed to ask a female out? is the female only supposed to ask the male out? can he accuse HER of sexual harrassment?

No idea how the guy manage now--like I said, I've been out of the loop for awhile but I guess you role the dice and hope for the best.

I know some of the laws were challenged successfully but it's best to be absolutely certain you're on solid ground before you proceed. It's a minefield I will not traverse again.

Best Regards

John

Andy, I have a hard time reconciling these statements of yours:

It's one of the best episodes of all, if for no other reason that it features the two "Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?" guys, one of only three episodes in which they appear

...

whereas Seinfeld's characters are are only slightly exaggerated versions of people you meet every day, full of real personality and not just cartoon figures

Those two street toughs are awful and their appearances marked the moment where Seinfeld went from being about the minutiae of everyday life to being about cartoony absurdity. Don't tell me you like the awful Mandelbaums as well.

I suppose this is another one of those "in the eyes of the beholder" things. To me those "Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?" guys are sublimely depicted exaggerations of of a million PC types I've had the misfortune to run into over the course of many years. The context in this case was an AIDS walk, but the mentality they represent is sadly universal.

And the Mandelbaums, while not so well played, are also little more than a parody of an even more universal character type: People who get in your face when you disagree with them, and who get even more in your face when you don't disagree with them. Sort of like a few people right here on this site, I might add.

That said, I can see some people getting uncomfortable with some of Seinfeld's characters. But then I've also heard that some people think that Richard Pryor and Springtime for Hitler in The Producers were also "demeaning to [fill in the blank]," "not funny," or in "bad taste," etc. I guess the only conclusion to draw from all this is that it's a good thing none of us are issuing edicts from any federal Department of Acceptable Humor, or we'd all be reduced to watching little more than Marge Simpson's cleaned up version of Itchy and Scratchy.

sorry for a dumb question. but Up There, how on earth is a male supposed to ask a female out? is the female only supposed to ask the male out? can he accuse HER of sexual harrassment?

In my experience, due to social mores, female initiated sexual harassment tends to be entirely overlooked. That's not a complaint--it's probably a necessary state of affairs in a patriarchal society.

That being said, I work in a school, so sexual harassment has to be taken even more seriously than when it's just adults interacting, as we are modeling behavior in front of kids.

My experience is that older women get away with a lot more in public, but that older men tend to really creep out my female co-workers in individual situations.

It's important to remember that whether the individual is offended is not the issue of sole importance. There has to be some consistent standard for workplace conduct, otherwise those who are more sensitive will be vilified (as they have been to some degree on this thread).

Certainly, we have all seen the "most people would not have been offended" response to dismiss situations where someone was visibly upset.

In terms of how to ask someone out, I find a lot of the frustration comes from men who use the browbeating pick up method. It's not too hard to get women to express interest (of course, in my case, the response is, "Let me check with my wife on that...did you see the rings we designed together?"

the seinfeld characters aren't exaggerated versions of people i meet every day, they are simply vicious, amoral, mean, spiteful - the only people i have ever known who are more horrible and disgusting than they are are child molesters and gangbangers.

I agree with this 100%, and I would go beyond and say most of the gangbangers I see on a daily basis our much better human beings than Seinfeld characters. Now, everyone is entitled to their own taste. Obviously, Andy, you are an obvious exception to what I'm going to say next.

One of the major adjustments we've had to make in moving back from Japan is the pure negativity on television and how it reflects into an uncivil society.

Japanese prime time programs tend to be more of the "extreme home makeover" variety or be about good characters overcoming adversity rather than ######## creating problems for others.

- i actually don't know anyone in my life who watches that show or thinks it is funny.
shrug
maybe it is an ethnic thing???

I've had the same experience. But I've also had the experience you describe Andy. The only time I have problems with it is when people act like I don't have a sense of humor because I hate Seinfeld or that it's a superior humor to humor respected (and often unknown in the majority community) in the minority community. Then, let's be real--that's racism. But otherwise, laugh away.

- i asked my brother the playa who never met a (willing) pusssy he wouldn't eff about the female character and he said that she made roseann barr look hot (well, i'm translating, but not real too much)

I echo the latter part of this statement--perhaps it's her personality, but I find Elaine to be one of the most repulsive female characters I've ever observed.

Even more so than that creepy older guy on the eHarmony commercials?

I exclude eHarmony from my endorsement of online dating. It blows monumentally.

Elaine's repulsive, but more personally than physically. She's not particularly good-looking, but she looks better than Roseann (who's no prize in the personality department either).

The only thing hot about Elaine is her superior dancing skill.

My second hand experience with online dating is that there is a large pool of sincere females honestly looking and a small pool of the same among males who are overlooked due to the huge population of men who are looking for a quick score through misrepresenting themselves. But most of my friends who use the stuff are female, so that could be selection bias.

E-X, as I've said, humor is by definition a very personal thing. Most of the people I know love Seinfeld, but not everyone. And I'm not saying for a minute that this is some sort of Rorschach test of one's innate sense of humor. BBC doesn't "get" Seinfeld, and in facts loathes everything about it, and yet I've laughed just as long and loudly at some of the things that she's written here as I ever have at The Soup Nazi or Mr. Pitts' speech about conquering "Poland." Larry David himself may never have come up with as good a line as the one she wrote about Kevin's wife having to dress up for Halloween as "the asterisk ball." No, you can certainly not "get" Seinfeld and still have a terrific sense of humor.

OTOH if you can watch more than one episode of Friends or All in the Family, without throwing up, or if you can even look at David Schwimmer's face or listen to Archie Bunker's (or his wife's) voice for more than a few seconds without switching channels, you've either in the last stages of a long, long fast, or you're in serious need of a lobotomy.

Elaine's looks are in the eyes of the beholder, but her personality is in the twilight zone between "zany" and "crazy", or between between "quirky" and "terminally annoying." IOW an exaggerated version of many if not most of the non-corporate types of people we all know. And funny as hell.

andy,

goodness me i didn't realize she was the yankees designated slumpbuster. didn't think that even they would have to go to the very bottom of the barell

alex,

what is creepy about older men interested in younger women?
- grinning
picture some 41 year old guy looking at your 13 year old and licking his lips and rubbing his

- no really
think about you own grrrls
think about what a pain in the ass teenage grrls really are and i ask you do you REALLY want all that shtt??? because it comes along with the body you know

but 41 ain't that old (guess i'm getting old my own self)
- the guy in the video is like 60-70 and he's getting with 18 year olds and THAT is creepy. and like i said it is just as creepy as a 60-70 year old woman gettin with an 18 year old guy
- bill clinton didn't look that old and monica didn't look that young, so i don't think it was that

then again i don't get the hot for teenagers thing because i guess there is plenty of older females like teenage guys. (well except for meatwad. but at the time i was only 5 years older...)

andy,

goodness me i didn't realize she was the yankees designated slumpbuster. didn't think that even they would have to go to the very bottom of the barell

Say what you want, she still beats 90% of the baseball wives I've seen. Just ask Keith Hernandez.

david schwimmer is the male elaine
uck uck UCK. i mean i'd rather have a cucumber. even a zucchini. or a carrot. even a baby carrot

i really didn't like that show real too particular much but i didn't hate it like seinfeld

- well andy,
i like to think i have a good sensa yuma, but like you said, we all have a different opinion of what is funny. now mrs. kevin turning on kevin (who is actually a nice looking guy for 50 something) by wearing the asterisk ball - now THAT is funny

Andy: Yeah, Friends is fun like watching a trainwreck being narrated by the dude who does America's funniest home videos and the sound effect backing track.

For me, friends is actually a similar dynamic though as Seinfeld--######## mucking stuff up for themselves and others.

As to Elaine and "quirky". I love quirky, quirky is my type, but quirky people can be ######## too, and I'd rather have a quirky empathic person than a quirky #######.

As to Elaine and "quirky". I love quirky, quirky is my type, but quirky people can be ######## too, and I'd rather have a quirky empathic person than a quirky #######.

Sure, in real life. But Skanko-Grecian wrestling makes for better TV shows.

And anyway, Elaine's not an #######, she's just a doofus with a certain amount of sexual energy----anything with a pole for her hole, so to speak.

Here's Elaine in a nutshell:

New scene.
Elaine and Puddy have gone to see a priest, Father Curtis.

Father Curtis: Let me see if I understand this. You're concerned that he isn't
concerned that you're going to hell. And you feel that she's too bossy.

Elaine and Puddy: Yeah, that's right.

Father Curtis: Well, oftentimes in cases of inter-faith marriages, couples have
difficulty--

Elaine (Interrupting): Woah, woah, woah! No one's getting married here.

Father Curtis: You aren't?

Puddy: No.

Elaine: We're just, you know, having a good time.

Father Curtis: Oh, well then it's simple. You're both going to hell.