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Sunday, January 29, 2012

Wakefield mulls future while waiting on Sox

WAKE ME, SHAKE ME
Don’t let me sleep too long!

Tim Wakefield told Florida Today that while he would consider retiring, his preference is to pitch in 2012 for the Red Sox.

“I just saw that [Yankees catcher Jorge Posada] retired, you know it’s something that my wife and I need to talk about,” told the paper last week. “I’d probably need to talk about it with my kids, too. Ultimately, I would like to obviously play for the Boston Red Sox for one more year and see where it goes.”

...From the article:

“There have been a number of clubs who have called, who have an interest in signing me but I’m kind of just weighing my options right now,” he said, obviously waiting and hoping that Boston will make an offer. “I think I can be a valuable asset to them as an insurance policy, you know a fifth or sixth starter or if something doesn’t pan out for some of the guys they have already penciled in to the rotation. You know that’s kind of been my job these last two years; I don’t have a problem doing that.”

Wakefield didn’t say whether he would sign with a team other than Boston, but he didn’t rule it out, either.

“Hopefully, it doesn’t come down to the last hour,” he said. “But I’m not closing any doors.”

Repoz Posted: January 29, 2012 at 01:36 PM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: red sox

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1. Dale Sams Posted: January 29, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4048720)

TIM. In case you haven't noticed, the Sox have signed eleventy billion starting pitchers this off-season, of which tensie and nine-hundred and ninety-ninesies billion won't see a single inning of major-league work.

You wern't one fo those guys signed.

2. Elvis Posted: January 29, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4048737)

Hey the Mets are looking for some SP depth - it would be great to have Wakefield and Dickey on the same staff.

3. catomi01 Posted: January 29, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4048739)

Hey the Mets are looking for some SP depth - it would be great to have Wakefield and Dickey on the same staff.

only if they sign mirabelli to catch too.

4. Shock Posted: January 29, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4048753)

This is kind of sad.

Dude, she's just not really into you. Move on, man.

5. base ball chick Posted: January 29, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4048776)

he's been with boston since 95 - like wow. and looking at his numbers, he's thrown at least 140 innings every single year except 09.

he could sign with the astros - when they get rid of wandy and the ol WB they won't even HAVE 5 starting pitchers. he could be this year's nelson figueroa

6. Lassus Posted: January 29, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4048783)

I would love a team to acquire five true knuckleballers to fill out a rotation. And have the bullpen be all sub-mariners.

7. tjm1 Posted: January 29, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4048800)

he's been with boston since 95 - like wow. and looking at his numbers, he's thrown at least 140 innings every single year except 09.

Curiously, he's had three seasons with exactly 140 innings in that stretch.

I think he's probably hit the end of the line as a useful pitcher. He's had two straight years of ERA+ in the low 80s. The Sox should be able to find guys that good as minor league free agents.

8. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: January 29, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4048817)

Any thoughts on whether 2 knucklers in the same rotation would diminish the effectiveness of both?

9. karlmagnus Posted: January 29, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4048818)

My bet is that the Sox won't sign Wake because this management is so up itself, and that they will have truly horrendous pitching problems in '12, during which Wake's 140 innings of 5.2ERA pitching will be badly missed.

Wake needs a really good pitchers park with huge spaces (flyball pitcher.) Any room on the Tigers? Astros a possibility -- get weak opposition in that division, too -- he could win 20 in his last season! Not pitching in the AL east, and pitching against pitchers, will do wonders for his durability and ERA!

10. Boxkutter Posted: January 29, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4048819)

Any thoughts on whether 2 knucklers in the same rotation would diminish the effectiveness of both?

Sorta what I was wondering.

11. AROM Posted: January 29, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4048835)

Makes me wonder if there has ever been 5 Knuckleballers good enough to start in MLB at the same time. When I was a kid there was Hough and the Niekro brothers. Candiotti came along, Wakefield. Dennis Springer had a few years. Now there's R.A. Dickey. I can't remember anyone else in the last 30 years or so who was good enough to stick.

12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 29, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4048838)

Didn't Steve Sparks have like one good year?

13. Sweatpants Posted: January 29, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4048839)

Any thoughts on whether 2 knucklers in the same rotation would diminish the effectiveness of both?

It was a different time, but the mid-1940s Senators at one point had an all-knuckleballer rotation.

14. Flynn Posted: January 29, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4048851)

I feel bad for the guy, I think he desperately wants the Red Sox wins record and that's the only reason he wants to come back. Fair enough considering the current holders are long dead (Cy) and long dead to Red Sox fans (Roger) and he's been a pretty good (if not perfect) servant to the team for a long time.

Also, while he's clearly not in Young's or Clemens's class, it's also true that he would certainly have the record if he wasn't jerked around between the rotation and the bullpen earlier in his Red Sox tenure.

15. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 29, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4048853)

It was a different time, but the mid-1940s Senators at one point had an all-knuckleballer rotation.

The 1944 Senators - Dutch Leonard, Johnny Niggeling, Mickey Haefner, and Roger Wolff. They also had Early Wynn, who wasn't a 100% knuckleballer, but who certainly threw it.

16. Jittery McFrog Posted: January 29, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4048854)

Any chance the Red Sox can hire Wake as a coach? As in, to convert a few of our garbage pitchers to knuckleballers? I think the only two ways I'll be able to stand to watch Lackey in a Boston uni again are "John Lackey: Cy Young Contender" or "John Lackey: Knuckleball Convert", and the latter seems more plausible at this point.

17. catomi01 Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4048940)

wasn't that basically the plan a decade or so ago with Charlie Zink? I can't remember if he was a knuckleballer when he signed, but I remember at some point when he started to gain a little attention that the plan was for him to learn from Wakefield for a few seasons...then take over and let Wakefield fade away...I know the odds against any pitcher making it are long, but if I had to pick one of the two to be pitching in the Atlantic League in 2011, I would have probably assumed it would be Wakefield.

18. Dale Sams Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4048943)

Charlie Zink

Who could forget this game?

19. Long John McCaine Mutiny on the Bounty (scott) Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4048945)

I'm really going to be sad if this is the end of the road for Wakefield. He's one of my all time favorites. Thank goodness Dickey's young enough to stick around for the better part of a decade as a knuckler.

If he does retire they should bring him back on a 1 day ML contract to have a retirement ceremony, he deserves it.

20. TVerik Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4048946)

I find it just a little bit hard to imagine that the Sox wouldn't sign him and stash him at AAA in case of an injury. Or is that contractually forbidden, in the year-to-year agreement he has with the Sox?

21. Textbook Editor Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:44 PM (#4048947)

I would have to think the A's could get Wakefield for a song if he's still interested in playing, and in that ballpark he could possibly put up decent numbers... but then he'd have to win an awful lot of 1-0 games with that offense (as currently projected)...

22. Dale Sams Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4048948)

wouldn't sign him and stash him at AAA in case of an injury

As I've said before, the problem with using Tim Wakefield as a back-up, is that if there's an injury, you have to use Tim Wakefield.

23. Textbook Editor Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4048950)

TVerik, the year-to-year think expired a year or two ago; he was working on a one-year contract for 2011 and is a FA now.

24. villageidiom Posted: January 29, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4048951)

Or is that contractually forbidden, in the year-to-year agreement he has with the Sox?

Two years ago they ripped up the year-to-year thing and replaced it with a two-year guaranteed contract.

25. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: January 29, 2012 at 10:07 PM (#4048965)

Sorry, I'm firmly ensconced in the Phil Coorey camp when I say without reserve, thank f*cking christ this guy isn't coming back. The last couple of years were brutal to watch. Yes, I know he was effective for a very long time and very cheap. Yeah, yeah, I know all that, and yeah, I can admire the craftsmanship required to learn the skill of throwing one, but holy sh*t it was never a dull moment when he was pitching. NO 3 run lead was safe...ever.

26. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 29, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4048973)

Sorry, I'm firmly ensconced in the Phil Coorey camp when I say without reserve, thank f*cking christ this guy isn't coming back. The last couple of years were brutal to watch. Yes, I know he was effective for a very long time and very cheap. Yeah, yeah, I know all that, and yeah, I can admire the craftsmanship required to learn the skill of throwing one, but holy sh*t it was never a dull moment when he was pitching. NO 3 run lead was safe...ever.

I guess I can at least looking forward to a season when I don't have to read you and the other two anti-knuckler screechers wildly overstating how ineffective he's been. So there's that.

Wake's probably my favorite Sox player ever. I also doubt he has anything left.

I wish him well, whether in retirement or on the hilll if he can latch on somewhere else.

27. TVerik Posted: January 29, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4048978)

SoSH, how do you view his 82 and 83 ERA+ in significant innings the last two seasons? I don't know how over- or under-stated that is, but it seems pretty conclusive to me.

28. Tom (and his broom) Posted: January 29, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4048986)

I would have to think the A's could get Wakefield for a song if he's still interested in playing, and in that ballpark he could possibly put up decent numbers... but then he'd have to win an awful lot of 1-0 games with that offense (as currently projected)...

Wakefield and Manny together again for the A's...desperation or nostalgia?

29. TVerik Posted: January 29, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4048987)

If this is the end of the road for Wake, I can think of very few players who ran the gas tank as dry as he did. Good for him; I think I would have gone out like that too.

30. cardsfanboy

Posted: January 29, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4048993)

SoSH, how do you view his 82 and 83 ERA+ in significant innings the last two seasons? I don't know how over- or under-stated that is, but it seems pretty conclusive to me.

Depending on the innings, that is probably above true replacement level, depending on his clubhouse presence, probably a decent $1million player.

31. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 29, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4049004)

SoSH, how do you view his 82 and 83 ERA+ in significant innings the last two seasons? I don't know how over- or under-stated that is, but it seems pretty conclusive to me.

Like I said, I doubt he has anything left.

But I view his performance over the past two seasons as consistent with what most teams would expect when they thrust the No. 7 starter into significant innings (and, in fact, he was better than other starting pitchers the Sox gave meaningful innings to in each of the past two seasons). However bad Timmy was, and he was by no means good, he certainly had company in that category.

I also expect that when the Sox lose the inevitable starting pitchers this year to injury or suspension or what have you, the guy or guys they slot into the role Wakefield has had the last two years will contribute a similar level of performance.

Whether those pitchers are similarly incapable of winning any "big games" is still up in the air.

32. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: January 29, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4049006)

I guess I can at least looking forward to a season when I don't have to read you and the other two anti-knuckler screechers wildly overstating how ineffective he's been.

hey, whoa...now I only stated he was ineffective the last couple of years and actually pointed out how effective he was for a very long time. I just found him to be painful to watch and found the total lack of predictability to be quite maddening. Even at his most effective I found I could never relax even with a decent lead.

If this is the end of the road for Wake, I can think of very few players who ran the gas tank as dry as he did. Good for him; I think I would have gone out like that too.

This I do agree with. A famous athlete once said that "you are a long time retired" If I were a pro athlete I'd hang on until they threw my carcass out the door.

33. Howie Menckel Posted: January 29, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4049010)

It's not fair because it was an anonymous source, but that "Red Sox are a mess" postseason story included an anecdote that Wakefield was seeking a return in 2012 "to give the fans a chance to see me break the club all-time win record."

Wakefield needs 6 to tie, 7 to break it.
And surely their fans would sooner have an unforgettable legend like Wakefield own such a record than the obscure duo who currently share the mark.

Who remembers Roger Clemens and Cy Young?
:)

surprised that only 3 Red Sox have won 125 games: Clemens and Young 192, Wakefield 186, then Mel Parnell won 123 and Luis Tiant won 122.
The Yankees have 9 who won 150 and 3 who won 200...

34. Dale Sams Posted: January 29, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4049017)

You're all overlooking the billion unearned runs he had last year due to passed balls and wild pitchs. He was every bit as bad as the historiclly bad John Lackey. Those two were literally two of the, if not THE worst pitchers in the A.L. for their innings pitched.

35. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 30, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4049029)

I love Tim Wakefield, but another point that has not yet come up:

Let's say Wakefield pitches reasonably well - he's an ERA+ of 100, pitches 140 innings, goes 9-9 in 26 starts. So what? He has nothing to do with the future of the Red Sox. His upside is no better than league-average, and that's probably optimistic. His main value at this point would be as a cheap innings-eater...but nobody thinks he'd "eat" more than 140 innings, and that seems unlikely. He's cheap, but a lot of the kind of guys who would take his 100-140 IP are going to be even cheaper!

Look, the best argument for putting Bard and Aceves in the rotation is that you could see a scenario where either of them could be quite good in the role (they could both also fail). Even a guy last year like Kyle Weiland had an advantage over Wakefield in that he had more upside...and even though he was not very good, he was part of a trade of a couple of spare parts which got them a good, cost-controlled relief pitcher...which, in turn, made it a little easier to try Bard and Aceves in the rotation.

I wish Wakefield would retire.

36. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 30, 2012 at 12:33 AM (#4049031)

It's not fair because it was an anonymous source, but that "Red Sox are a mess" postseason story included an anecdote that Wakefield was seeking a return in 2012 "to give the fans a chance to see me break the club all-time win record."

It wasn't an anonymous source. Some beat guy noticed before the season's final game that this might be Wake's last day with the Sox and asked him his opinion about that. I do agree he overstated things with the "fans wanted me to break the record" comment (though I obviously did), but it wasn't really a big deal. He wanted to come back, which he obviously still does.

You're all overlooking the billion unearned runs he had last year due to passed balls and wild pitchs. He was every bit as bad as the historiclly bad John Lackey. Those two were literally two of the, if not THE worst pitchers in the A.L. for their innings pitched.

A good point. He allowed 22 UER last year, which is pretty astronomical. Looking at the game logs, though the defense wasn't great behind him, the PB and WP were a huge factor, with Wake being particularly vexed by the otherwise rare, K-reached on (PB-WP) play.

37. Dan Posted: January 30, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4049218)

It's been said already now, but anyone looking at Wakefield's ERA+ for last season is massively overrating his performance.

He was worth -1.2 WAR (bb-ref) while being paid $2 million last season. That's not "acceptable performance from an innings eater", that's terrible. In 2010, he was worth -0.7 WAR for $3M. The guy should've retired at least a year ago, possibly 2 years ago.

38. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: January 30, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4049240)

He took some heat for it but I think the great majority of the fan base DOES want Wakefield to break the record. He is incredibly popular and I think fans do want a chance to see him break the record.

Doesn't mean the club should bring him back, he's cooked, but his popularity is not an illusion.

39. Phil Coorey. Posted: January 30, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4049900)

He was worth -1.2 WAR (bb-ref) while being paid $2 million last season. That's not "acceptable performance from an innings eater", that's terrible. In 2010, he was worth -0.7 WAR for $3M. The guy should've retired at least a year ago, possibly 2 years ago.

What Dan said - the guy is cooked.

40. TVerik Posted: January 30, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4049909)

I can think of a few position players who "hung around", but not many starting pitchers. Name a few who had a few "circling the drain" seasons before finally hanging it up.

41. bigglou115 Posted: January 30, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4049943)

Tom Glavine comes to mind. His decline was probably sharper, but watching him get shelled throwing 80 MPH fastballs in ST was equally painful for Braves fans.

42. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 30, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4049949)

The end wasn't pretty for Lefty.

43. AROM Posted: January 30, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4049957)

Livan Hernandez, for the last decade or so.

44. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 30, 2012 at 09:23 PM (#4049975)

Jack Morris in 93-94 is the first guy that I thought of.

Let's see... Jamie Moyer ain't been no good the last two years. Jeff Suppan threw nearly 450 sub-replacement innings from 08-10 before hangin' em up.

Speaking of knucklers, Joe Niekro's age 41-42 seasons match Wake's last two crap seasons pretty perfectly.

45. The Ghost, elitist lollygagging neck-stabber

Posted: January 30, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4050002)

Dennis Martinez in '97 and '98 - hung around and became the winningest Latino pitcher ever.

46. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 30, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4050043)

As a lifelong Sox fan, and somebody who appreciates Tim Wakefield's career, let me say: I don't know any Red Sox fan here in New Hampshire that gives a rat's ### about Wakefield breaking the team wins record. We went 80-41 between April 16th and August 27th - and we still won only 90 games for the whole season (that's 10-31 killing 3/4 of a season of .665 ball - unbelievable!). You can be Luis Aponte, for all I care - just get batters out in 2012! Nobody wants Wakefield back. Nobody.

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Wakefield mulls future while waiting on Sox

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