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Wednesday, December 02, 2009

Walkoff Walk: Fairservice: The Dirty Projectors

Cannibalized Resources: An overview of projection systems.

If you’re new to the geek game, you may not be familiar with the assorted projection models and their banal acronyms. CHONE, Marcel, ZiPS, PECOTA, and Bill James are the best known, each with their own faults and strong points. Based on past performances, linear weighting, age regression and magic 8 balls; these systems spit out incredible reams of information that can be taken or left at your convenience. Sometimes the results are bang on, sometimes they’re laughably off. Sometimes they make little or no sense, as the playing time they predict simply won’t or can’t happen.

ZiPS - Created by Dave Szymborski of Baseball Think Factory, the ZiPS projections are quite elaborate, including defense and ODDIBE, or Odds of Important Baseball Events. Szymborski is well respected throughout the SABR world, and his system is thought to be pretty sound.

LOLine for 2010: Jeremy Guthrie. According to ZiPS, Jeremy Guthrie will only surrender 29 home runs this year. That’s less than thirty! Jeremy Guthrie is a lot of things; solid pitcher is not among them. Guthrie gave up three home runs pouring milk on his cereal this morning. Waiting in line at the DMZ last week he served up two gopher balls and later allowed a walkoff tot to his massage therapist.

PECOTA - The grandaddy of them all, available on Baseball Prospectus for a small subscription fee. An incredible variety of information is provided, with age curves and future probabilities mapped out as far as 6 years into the future. Why bother even playing the games? Creator Nate Silver bases the projections on career trajectories of similar players and phone poll results conducted by Fox News, CNN, and John Kruk’s autodialer.

LOLine from 2009: Raul Ibanez. The Ibanez signing left many heads scratching last offseason. An aging player moving to a new league had some (not all) wondering aloud if Ruben Amaro was crazy. Ibanez posted on incredible 34 home runs with a steller .899 OPS. What did PECOTA think before the season? 9 home runs. Nine. Though the robot army did nail the potential OPS (.892 predicted), Silver and friends only estimated 198 plate appearances. No word why, though Ken Rosenthal did give PECOTA a public lashing in Visual Basic for insinuating Ibanez’s steroid-addled body would break down. For shame PECOTA, for shame.

Repoz Posted: December 02, 2009 at 01:35 PM | 26 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: projections, sabermetrics, site news, zips

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Run Joe Run Posted: December 02, 2009 at 02:39 PM (#3400988)
Guthrie gave up three home runs pouring milk on his cereal this morning. Waiting in line at the DM[V] last week he served up two gopher balls and later allowed a walkoff tot to his massage therapist.

That's just funny
   2. AROM Posted: December 02, 2009 at 03:31 PM (#3401021)
Not much substance here, but you might think his jokes are funny.

The PECOTA example shows little understanding of the system. The 198 PA appears to be an updated forecast run in early August - so it's projecting 198 PA for the rest of the year, and deserves no credit for nailing his season OPS, since it's using his 2009 to date totals in that.

His 2009 forecast is listed below as the weighted mean under percentiles, or the 2009 line of the 7-year forecast, in either case 577 PA of an .852 OPS.

On Ichiro, there are two problems. One is the failure of a model using regression to accurately predict a guy who really, consistently, will have a very high BABIP. I have made strides towards solving this by using batted ball data and speed scores. If I had Ichiro predicted around .330, he'd be near his career average and what the Fangraphs readers are projecting. My system isn't quite there, but would have him around .320 if he were still in what are normally considered his prime ages.

The problem is this: My system is looking at him as a 36 year old human, and projecting the normal batting average aging curve for 36 year old humans. Ichiro, being a Half-Japanese, Half-Elf, has a longer lifespan. I'm not sure exactly how much longer with all the varying rules out there, but going by 4th edition it should be at least double that of a human, so expect about 20 more 200 hit seasons from him, and yes, he will go into the Hall of Fame.
   3. AROM Posted: December 02, 2009 at 03:43 PM (#3401036)
Oh yeah, and if you're looking for an LOL from PECOTA, how do you miss Matt Wieters?
   4. Shredder Posted: December 02, 2009 at 03:47 PM (#3401038)
Album of the year, in my opinion. Just edging out Animal Collective and Foreign Born. Took me a while to figure it out, though. The kind of album you listen to, put down for a couple weeks, listen to a bit more, put down for a couple more weeks, then it hits you. Longstreth is a genius on guitar. And they're a very entertaining live act.
   5. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: December 02, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3401124)
They spelled "Szymborski" right, but they weren't even close on "Dan."
   6. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 02, 2009 at 04:58 PM (#3401129)
Dave is the little guy who lives in Dan's head. He's good friends with Farney.
   7. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 02, 2009 at 05:05 PM (#3401138)
"Seriously, that Dirty Projectors album is incredible. I'm not sure it's my favorite of the year (right up there for me is the new stuff by the Thermals, Bill Callahan, Mayer Hawthorne, A Sunny Day In Glasgow, probably a couple of others that I'm blanking on right now)"

Play "Free Bird"!
   8. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: December 02, 2009 at 05:14 PM (#3401147)
though Ken Rosenthal did give PECOTA a public lashing in Visual Basic for insinuating Ibanez’s steroid-addled body would break down.

Why do people keep using the phrase "steroid-addled". This is starting to bug me. Are steroids a PED or a PAD--Performance Addling Drug. If it's the latter, then a lot of agruments have just been settled.
   9. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 02, 2009 at 05:24 PM (#3401160)
Strangely, I've been referred to as "Dave Szymborski" quite a few times. "Dan Symborski" still seems to be the number one variant, but the Dave version is probably number two.
   10. zonk Posted: December 02, 2009 at 06:09 PM (#3401208)
Dave is the little guy who lives in Dan's head. He's good friends with Farney.


Not since ZiPS projected Farney to regress to tinnitus rather than develop into full blow schizophrenia.
   11. Anthony Giacalone Posted: December 02, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3401387)
Szymborski is well respected throughout the SABR world . . .

This may be the most ridiculously uninformed statement that I have ever read.
   12. Mark Edward Posted: December 03, 2009 at 01:15 AM (#3401666)
Weird, I just listened to Bitte Orca (again) this morning. It is indeed very good, and I am not even a Dirty Projectors' fan.

Merriweather Post Pavillion is my favorite album this year, and IMO one of the best of the decade. I am not a huge AnCo fan, but "My Girls," "Taste," "Bluish," Summertime Clothes, "Also Frightened".. wow, it's incredible. Other favorites from '09:
The Pains of Being Pure at Heart - self-titled
Grizzly Bear - Veckatimest
Only Built 4 Cuban Linx II - Raekwon
Post-Nothing - Japandroids
Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix - Phoenix
Album - Girls

The Mountain Goats & Flaming Lips also released some good stuff too. I was disappointed by The Thermals '09 release. It seems like they've lost a whole lot of their punkish edge. I mean, their songs were always melodic, but Now We Can See is much less Replacements and more All-American Rejects. On the plus side, I saw them at Pitchfork, and they did a solid cover of Basketcase.

New Clipse album out next Tuesday! So excited.
   13. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 03, 2009 at 01:34 AM (#3401673)
Ichiro, being a Half-Japanese, Half-Elf, has a longer lifespan. I'm not sure exactly how much longer with all the varying rules out there, but going by 4th edition it should be at least double that of a human, so expect about 20 more 200 hit seasons from him, and yes, he will go into the Hall of Fame.

Does your system account for the effects of his toiling under our yellow sun?
   14. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: December 03, 2009 at 01:52 AM (#3401678)
Post-Nothing by the Japandroids is my album of the year.

"Bad Romance" by Lady Gaga is my single of the year.

EDIT: The Julian Casablancas record surprised me, though I know I'm in the minority.
   15. He's Bought a Bat Like Prince Fielder Posted: December 03, 2009 at 01:54 AM (#3401679)

This may be the most ridiculously uninformed statement that I have ever read.


Is there some juicy story here? As far as I've seen, Szymborski is one of the few major statnerds that's pretty well-liked around the internet.
   16. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: December 03, 2009 at 02:23 AM (#3401695)
Is there some juicy story here? As far as I've seen, Szymborski is one of the few major statnerds that's pretty well-liked around the internet.


Time to take that thar humor detector in for a check-up, sir.
   17. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: December 03, 2009 at 02:42 AM (#3401708)
Is there some juicy story here? As far as I've seen, Szymborski is one of the few major statnerds that's pretty well-liked around the internet.


He once made Bill James cry.
   18. Mark Edward Posted: December 03, 2009 at 02:51 AM (#3401713)
Some of my favorite '09 songs:
1901 - Phoenix
My Girls - AnCo
Two Weeks - Grizzly Bear
While You Wait for the Others - Grizzly Bear
Walkabout - Atlas Sound
Lust for Life - Girls
Kinda Like a Big Deal - Clipse (w/ Kanye)
Drop - Rich Boy

More good albums from '09:
Dragonslayer - Sunset Rubdown (can't believe I missed this the first time)
The Crying Light - Antony & the Johnsons
An Imaginary Country - Tim Hecker
Why There Are Mountains - Cymbals Eat Guitars

Julian Casablancas had a better solo record than Paul Banks (that's not saying much), but I wish both would get back together to making good stuff with The Strokes & Interpol, respectively.
   19. mike f Posted: December 03, 2009 at 03:12 AM (#3401727)
The Pains of Being Pure at Heart and the Dark Was the Night comp are probably my favorite albums of the year. I did not care for Bitte Orca besides Stillness in the Move. 1901 is my favorite song of the year, maybe even the decade.
   20. Repoz Posted: December 03, 2009 at 03:18 AM (#3401730)
Some of my favorite '09 songs:

My worthlessly idiot Indie/Undie 2009 list is now down to 144 songs.
   21. zonk Posted: December 03, 2009 at 03:26 AM (#3401738)
He once made Bill James cry.


Who hasn't?

For all the beard, he's quite the sissy.
   22. Shredder Posted: December 03, 2009 at 07:09 AM (#3401845)
Walkabout - Atlas Sound
I think Shelia is the standout track on that album. Another good live performance. Broadcast opened, and I was really looking forward to them, but they were actually kind of weird. Other than Animal Collective, I was fortunate to see a lot of the artists that released my favorite 2009 albums live this year, sometimes more than once. Art Brut (four times), Grizzly Bear (twice), Pains...(twice), Dirty Projectors, White Rabbits, Viva Voce, Wavves (twice), and I'm seeing Foreign Born (who are awesome) in a few weeks in L.A. Plus, the Walkmen came around a couple times, and they're my current favorite act to see live. And Los Campesinos!, which was an act I didn't get into until I already had the album for a while. My only regret with regard to the Art Brut shows is that I didn't see them more than four times. They played something like eight shows in Chicago this year.

Grizzly Bear would be near the top of my list, but it's an album with some songs I really love (the obvious ones), and a bunch I couldn't care less about.

mike, Bitte Orca didn't hit me at first. I don't know how much you've listened to it, but Bitte Orca is an album that I could tell I might eventually like, but didn't like it at first. It took a few efforts, and by effort I mean multiple listens. Eventually it just clicked. There's a structure there, but it takes some time to make itself apparent.
   23. Mark Edward Posted: December 03, 2009 at 07:48 AM (#3401855)
I didn't like Atlas Sounds' Logos at all, aside from Walkabout (thank you Noah Lennox). And I'm a Deerhunter fan.

My favorite show of '09 was The Wrens at Schubas. They played 2 nights, I went the first night. I actually had tickets for the 2nd night, but confused the nights. When I showed up, I wasn't on the list. The bouncer was nice enough to let me in anyway. Anyway, it was a great show. I think they went through every song on The Meadowlands (maybe my favorite album ever) and like 6 encores, plus some new songs. Jerry MacDonald even sold me a shirt!

Women/Vivian Girls/Japandroids were fun at Pitchfork because each of them basically blew out my eardrums.

EDIT: I've seen Los Campesinos! live 3 times- once at the Empty Bottle, once at Logan Square Auditorium, and somewhere in Milwaukee. They're always fun, and they're releasing a new album sometime soon. I'm still a little upset Aleksandra left the group though.
   24. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 03, 2009 at 08:53 AM (#3401879)
My favorite song of the year, by far, is "Overflowing Wealth" by Ringo Shiina. Great acoustic chord progression, heartfelt vocal (although I have no idea what she's singing about), and a slow buildup that leads to a killer electic guitar solo. Wonderful stuff...
   25. Shredder Posted: December 03, 2009 at 03:44 PM (#3401993)
My favorite show of '09 was The Wrens at Schubas. They played 2 nights, I went the first night. I actually had tickets for the 2nd night, but confused the nights.
That's funny. I had tickets for both nights, but I moved that weekend on a Thursday, and by Friday night around the time of the show, I'm not sure I could have walked to Schuba's, let alone stood for the whole set, and I only live about 500 feet from Schuba's. I went the second night, and it was one of the best shows I saw this year. First time I've ever seen a real live encore. I don't mean the fake encores when a band leaves the stage for a short break. The band said goodbye, the house lights went on, the background music started playing, and about 2/3 of the crowd stuck around and called them back on the stage for a couple more songs.

I was at the LC! show at Logan Square. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with Garreth's sister. 'Romance is Boring' is out on January 26th. I'd like to see Titus Andonicus again too. They were a great opener.

Other than the Wrens show, the best shows I saw were White Rabbits at the Empty Bottle, every Art Brut show (especially at Subterranean with Team Band), Destroyer at the Empty Bottle, Ted Leo at Lincoln Hall, and Brendan Benson at Lincoln Hall. I still have tix for two Grant Lee Phillips shows at Schubas and the Foreign Born show in LA before the year is out.

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