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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Thursday, August 01, 2013Watching Like a Girl: How mainstream sports reporting gets female fandom wrongIf it weren’t for women at baseball games, us stat nerds would never know what one looked like!
RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)
Posted: August 01, 2013 at 02:21 PM | 124 comment(s)
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Thank you. It's condescending to say that "female coworkers are better because they are nicer and aren't ego driven".
My paternal grandparents had the most delightfully hostile marriage. They were always at eachother's throats in some bizzare, vaguely loving way. He was a die-hard Cubs fan, because even though he lived in Michigan it was easier for him to get Cubs radio broadcasts where he lived at that time. My grandma, who didn't care much for baseball before they met, summarily became a White Sox fan for what appears to be no other reason than to antagonize him. And she didn't go half-way either, she immediately began to study the game and team becam a complete White Sox fanatic.
Watching games with them as I grew up was really odd, but I inherited most of my love of baseball from them.
Wait, it's condescending to complement people now?
Well, the statement implies that male coworkers are less nice and are ego driven.
It can be. I don't know why you say "now," as patronizing complements have been part of condescenion for a long time.
But saying someone is nice and not ego-driven doesn't sound particularly condescending to me.
Sure, it may be critical of men, but it's not condescending to women.
I have worked with great males and some terrible females, but on average the women have been better as managers.
I am also the first sports fan in my family. I did not inherit the "fishing" gene.
I think the argument is that it diminishes any individual to be considered X by default simply because that individual is a member of a particular group.
I would imagine that a woman that reaches a position of success through hard work and competence would find it offensive to be told that she got that position because she was "nice" and "had less ego than a man."
As a tangential example, there's a co-worker of mine that says I'm capable of charging more for tutoring than she can because I'm a man. In her eyes, it has nothing to do with my skill as a tutor, my personality, my knowledge base, or even my salesmanship. Nor could it possibly have anything to do with anything she does to present a less valuable tutoring experience.
My experience has generally been the opposite, although the very best manager I have ever worked with was a female.
Well I the soft skills you allude to in the "nice" and "less ego" are important and helped lead to her (theoretical) success. In fact IMO those soft skills are what separate the good and very good managers from the less good, are part of the competence (half of the hard work and competence that led to her success) and are in fact where the female managers in my experience excel over the male managers.
Like I said originally though since I am in IT there may be some selection bias issues.
I think the argument is that it diminishes any individual to be considered X by default simply because that individual is a member of a particular group.
But, I don't think we were saying that women are better managers b/c they're women. We're just saying that the women we've encountered tend to be better managers than the men we've encountered.
I'm certainly not ascribing to any innate gender capabilities, or saying the women only got their jobs b/c they were women.
Has that argument been made? Arguing that X is nicer/less egotistical is not the same as arguing "X is successful because she is nicer/less egotistical."
I find this entire concept of ranking managers by their gender to be odd. Some great managers are female. Some terrible managers are female. Or male. About the only thing I can sign onto as a general statement is that IT dorks really ought never be allowed to attempt to manage human beings, for the same reason Ray or David should not.
Most of my experience with management was similarly in IT. Let's just say the bar wasn't set very high most of the time. There were a couple of great managers and a boatload of terrible ones.
Has that argument been made? Arguing that X is nicer/less egotistical is not the same as arguing "X is successful because she is nicer/less egotistical."
"Women are better managers because they are nicer/less egotistical" was the argument I was responding to.
I think its in the same vein as "you Asians can take a VCR and turn it into a watch!"
Yeah, I get that. But, I don't think anyone here has come close to saying "women are all great managers b/c they're nicer and don't have egos".
They've noted enjoying working for women managers who happen to be nicer/more concerned with their staff, and not engaging in ego-conflicts.
Those are two very different statements.
Humans are great at recognizing patterns - including of course patterns that don't exist. We are prone to doing so and extrapolating based on the patterns, developing theories and also love to talk about our theories.
Why exactly do you find this odd?
Yea, I think there's just sensitivity because in business, being "not nice" and "ambitious" are seen as positive traits by a lot of people, and women have had to work doubly hard to prove they are up to that task.
Must... not... make... joke... about... women... programming... VCRs.
Yeah, but most of us hopefully aren't the ######## like that, who make it to senior management, so we feel differently.
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