Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, June 22, 2009

WEEI: Petraglia: Jones, Cox not-so chipper about umpiring

Petraglia: Caroliering missed strikes on the Braves.

Afterward, Chipper Jones ripped home plate ump Bill Hohn, who ejected all three. “I don’t know why umpires have to be confrontational,” Jones said. ”When he goes back and looks at the replay of the pitch, hopefully he can admit he missed the call.”

Jones stepped in to try and protect Eric O’Flaherty, who was being relieved by Cox when he asked about the pitch to Drew.

“I know this, I hope Major League Baseball take a close look at how this game was officiated today. And it wasn’t just aimed at us. I saw a ton of Red Sox with some puzzled looks on their faces, too. We’ve got to do a little better than that,” Jones said.

Cox had this to say about the non-strike three call on Drew.

“It was a ball that was right down the middle for strike three,” Cox said. “It was obvious. He blew the call and it upsets guys when it costs you games and it costs us the ballgame.”

Repoz Posted: June 22, 2009 at 11:41 AM | 97 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 11:55 AM (#3227445)
Bill Hahn should be stabbed in the neck simply because of that idiotic mustache. The fact that he has no idea how to distinguish balls from strikes or the basic job description of a major league umpire is just cake.
   2. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:01 PM (#3227449)
While I agree that umpiring has been erratic, I find it amusing that Chipper is complaining considering that in the games I have watched umpires give him a strike zone the size of a matchbook. Was there some secret meeting where it was decided that Jones isn't to be called out on strikes? It's likely coincidence, but I caught snippets of four different games in just the last two weeks where with two strikes there were some fine pitches thrown, catchers pause waiting and the umpire called it a ball.
   3. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:05 PM (#3227450)
Umpires have a completely different zone on 0-2 or 3-0 than they do any other time. It's idiotic and someone needs to make a point of it. I suggest stabbing Bill Hahn in the neck. Dustin Pedrioa went from 3-0 to 3-1 on a ball that David Ross almost failed to catch it was so high. Drew was given a ball on a 0-2 fastball piped down the middle, at the belt. Bill Hahn's mother should cry for not taking care of this when she had the chance.
   4. OCD SS Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:08 PM (#3227451)
“I know this, I hope Major League Baseball take a close look at how this game was officiated today. And it wasn’t just aimed at us. I saw a ton of Red Sox with some puzzled looks on their faces, too. We’ve got to do a little better than that,” Jones said.


If the erratic strike zone went both ways, then one bad call didn't cost your team the game. What goes a lot farther towards costing your team the game is having your best player ejected for arguing balls and strikes.
   5. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:25 PM (#3227454)
Chipper wasn't ejected for arguing balls and strikes. He was ejected because he told Bill Hahn to go do his damned job and stop instigating arguments with relief pitchers. Watch the video and come back when you have an idea of what actually occurred.
   6. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:28 PM (#3227455)
If the erratic strike zone went both ways, then one bad call didn't cost your team the game.

It does unless you're suggesting that all at bats are created equal. The laughably bad call in the first (to wring up Chipper on a knuckler that more or less bounced to the catcher) didn't turn the game. The pathetic 3-0 auto-strike against Pedroia didn't change the outcome. Giving J.D. Drew a free swing after he took strike three down the middle, allowing him to drive in the go-ahead run on the next pitch late in the game (and leading directly to the ejection of the Braves' best player) - that cost Atlanta the game.

There's no reason for any ratioanl mammal to defend the umpiring in this game.
   7. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:32 PM (#3227458)
Oh, and to go a little meta, it's not "not-so." It's "not so." "not so chipper." What sort of hacks do they have writing headlines at WEEI?
   8. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM (#3227462)
and leading directly to the ejection of the Braves' best player

You know, Chipper could have let Cox do the arguing and kept his fool mouth shut. I don't understand why he felt it was necessary to get involved in the argument. You make it sound like Chipper had no choice but to get ejected, which is nonsense.

And yeah, the umpiring sucked terribly. No argument here. But that doesn't mean Jones had to get tossed from the game. Let Bobby do his thing and keep yourself in the game to give your team a chance to win.
   9. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM (#3227463)
And not scoring in the 9th off Papelbon, who couldn't find the plate with 2 hands and a flashlight, also cost Atlanta the game. What the sweet hell was Diaz swinging at?
   10. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:40 PM (#3227465)
I don't understand why [Chipper] felt it was necessary to get involved in the argument.

Sometimes frustrations boil over. If he were a robot he would have minimized the threat to his being ejected. Luckily for us, he is not a robot. I regret only that he didn't punch Hahn in the face. Maybe rip that damned mustache out hair by hair. That would have kicked ass.
   11. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3227467)
Well, if Bill Hahn could identify the strike zone for looking over those two catipillars ####### on his top lip, Chipper would have been standing in against Papelbon instead of Kelly Johnson. That would have been insurance runs (with the lead still held by O'Flaherty in the previous frame.)
   12. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:45 PM (#3227469)
And if my aunt had balls...

Seriously, if the Braves didn't pinch for for Anderson he'd have been at the plate in the 9th instead of Diaz. Too many factors to say ONE THING cost the Braves the game.
   13. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:46 PM (#3227471)
Umpires have a completely different zone on 0-2 or 3-0 than they do any other time. It's idiotic and someone needs to make a point of it. I suggest stabbing Bill Hahn in the neck. Dustin Pedrioa went from 3-0 to 3-1 on a ball that David Ross almost failed to catch it was so high. Drew was given a ball on a 0-2 fastball piped down the middle, at the belt. Bill Hahn's mother should cry for not taking care of this when she had the chance.


This. The seemingly guaranteed strike on a 3-0 count gets a little old.
   14. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:51 PM (#3227474)
Sam - if Chipper does not get ejected then perhaps he doesn't hit a double in the 8th and score to tie the game.
   15. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:54 PM (#3227477)
Maybe, jacksone. Or maybe the Braves still have the lead and Chipper goes deep for more. Bill Hahn cost the Braves their best player in crucial late inning situations. Blaming the ejection on Chipper is essentially telling her she shouldn't have been walking in that neighborhood, wearing a skirt like that.
   16. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:07 PM (#3227484)
Blaming the ejection on Chipper is essentially telling her she shouldn't have been walking in that neighborhood, wearing a skirt like that.

Oh, please. In such situations it's Cox' job to make a scene and get himself tossed, not Chipper's. I agree that Hahn was terrible, but it's more than fair to say Chipper unduly lost his cool and hurt his team in a close game.
   17. OCD SS Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3227487)
Blaming the ejection on Chipper is essentially telling her she shouldn't have been walking in that neighborhood, wearing a skirt like that.


Um, no, it's actually nothing like that. The difference is Chipper allowed to wear whatever he wants in his free time. He is not allowed to argue with umpires that way at any point during a baseball game.

Chipper wasn't ejected for arguing balls and strikes. He was ejected because he told Bill Hahn to go do his damned job and stop instigating arguments with relief pitchers.


Oh, you're right, I can see the difference in our respective characterizations. Insulting the ump about how he is calling balls and strikes is fundamentally different than arguing about whether or not a given pitch was a ball or strike. I apologize for impinging Chipper's honor like that.

It does unless you're suggesting that all at bats are created equal.


I'm suggesting that cause and effect (probably) don't work the way you seem to be suggesting. JD Drew's AB is fundamentally different with a man on 1st and 2nd and none out. And who knows if that situation even arises if any of the other missed calls during the game are called correctly.

But I'm at least glad to see you're taking an even handed and rational approach to your team's loss.
   18. Mister High Standards Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3227489)
Sam, the umpriring was poor. The missed third strike on drew was one of the KEY moments of the game. When an umpire blows it at a key moment it is always easiest to blame the umpire because his inemptitude cost your team a chance to win. However, saying chipper wasn't to blame for his ejection is giving him a free pass when he isn't entitled to one.

Yes, the umpiring was poor
Yes, it was a strike,
Yes, it directly lead to a run
Yes, it is understandable for Chipper to let it boil over.
No, it doesn't mean Chipper is blame less in getting thrown out. He is responsiable for his actions.
   19. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:25 PM (#3227498)
I bet if Chipper was wearing a dress the ump would not have tossed him.
   20. The Original SJ Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:28 PM (#3227503)
The umpiring has been terrible this year, all around baseball.

The umpires job is to stay out of the way, not become the story.
   21. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:32 PM (#3227507)
If what you have to say to the umpire is important enough to be worth getting tossed over, then say it and take your medicine. If not, don't.

Gandhi didn't piss and whine and moan when he got thrown in jail for breaking the law. He knew it was going to happen, and accepted it beforehand as the cost of doing business.
   22. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:34 PM (#3227510)
And while I'm complaining about stuff: When I was a kid, one of my coaches told me that if you lose a game because of a single blown call, it's your own damn fault for letting the game stay so close that a single blown call could flip the result. You had lots of opportunities to build a bigger lead, and you didn't take advantage of them. Don't blame the umpire.

It's good advice.
   23. wjones Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:34 PM (#3227511)
Most long-time Braves fans are aware of Bill Hahn vs. Tom Glavine, which went on for several years. If Hahn was behind the plate, no way was Glavine going to get a call all day, and more times than not, it was an early day for him. Hahn has been doing this crap for years, and apparently getting away with it. It's like a rogue cop, who is well known for singling out people to harass and confront, with the department turning a blind eye.
   24. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:40 PM (#3227517)
The fact that there are notorious umpires like Hahn - "Balk-a-day Bob Davis", Tim Merriweather, etc, et al - simply proves the point. Replace them all with the laser eye as far as I'm concerned.
   25. RJ in TO Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:41 PM (#3227519)
Most long-time Braves fans are aware of Bill Hahn vs. Tom Glavine, which went on for several years. If Hahn was behind the plate, no way was Glavine going to get a call all day, and more times than not, it was an early day for him. Hahn has been doing this crap for years, and apparently getting away with it. It's like a rogue cop, who is well known for singling out people to harass and confront, with the department turning a blind eye.


Every team has at least one ump who they think is trying to screw them. In the case of the Jays, it used to be Joe Brinkman (who probably was trying to screw the Jays, but only after Ernie Whitt accused him of it in his autobiography), and now it's Phil Cuzzi and Angel Hernandez.

Of course, when it comes to umpires, people aren't always fully rational in their evaluations.
   26. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:45 PM (#3227523)
Yes, and if you're going to stab an umpire, you want to stab him in the eye, so he can't ever work again. He could recover from a neck wound and get back on the job.
   27. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:46 PM (#3227526)
Most long-time Braves fans are aware of Bill Hahn vs. Tom Glavine, which went on for several years.
We'll give you those calls when you return the Eric Gregg calls and the resultant wins for Glavine and Maddux. :)
   28. OCD SS Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:50 PM (#3227527)
Most long-time Braves fans are aware of Bill Hahn vs. Tom Glavine, which went on for several years. If Hahn was behind the plate, no way was Glavine going to get a call all day, and more times than not, it was an early day for him.


What form did this feud take? Did he refuse to give Glavine the opposite batter's box, I mean "outside corner", as a strike?
   29. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:57 PM (#3227534)
ryan, its not just the jays the angel screws over its everyone!
   30. RJ in TO Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:58 PM (#3227537)
ryan, its not just the jays the angel screws over its everyone!


I know, but Jays fans generally believe that he (and Cuzzi) screw over the Jays worse. Fans almost always think that umps are out to screw their team worse than any other team.

EDIT: Incidentally, I loved your work on The Mouse and the Mask.
   31. OCD SS Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:59 PM (#3227541)
Most of the time, I just assume that the ump is incompetent, rather than out to get a particular team.
   32. cardsfanboy Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:00 PM (#3227543)
And while I'm complaining about stuff: When I was a kid, one of my coaches told me that if you lose a game because of a single blown call, it's your own damn fault for letting the game stay so close that a single blown call could flip the result. You had lots of opportunities to build a bigger lead, and you didn't take advantage of them. Don't blame the umpire.

It's good advice.


and if you have an incompetent umpire who is changing the basic dynamic of the games by effectively rewriting the rules based upon the count then I guess you can't complain either? Crappy officiating should never be accepted at the level they are playing at. (btw I'm someone who agrees with you on the spirit of your coaches comments)

Most long-time Braves fans are aware of Bill Hahn vs. Tom Glavine, which went on for several years. If Hahn was behind the plate, no way was Glavine going to get a call all day, and more times than not, it was an early day for him. Hahn has been doing this crap for years, and apparently getting away with it. It's like a rogue cop, who is well known for singling out people to harass and confront, with the department turning a blind eye.

There is pretty much no long time Braves fan that can complain about an umps officiating. For years the Braves were the Michael Jordan of baseball, if there was one team getting an unfortunate amount of calls going their way it was the Braves. (of course when you expand the catchers box it helps)

This doesn't take away from your general point that there are some umps that seem to have it against a team. (or in case of Angel Hernandez, the whole world)
   33. wjones Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:01 PM (#3227544)
We'll give you those calls when you return the Eric Gregg calls and the resultant wins for Glavine and Maddux. :)

Interesting ump choice, given that Gregg was behind the plate for one of the most ugly officiating exhibitions AGAINST the Braves, Game 6 of the 1997 NLCS vs. the Marlins and Livan Hernandez. Also, he is dead.
   34. RJ in TO Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:03 PM (#3227548)
Most of the time, I just assume that the ump is incompetent, rather than out to get a particular team.


Which is the much more sane way to look at it, rather than some ump being out to screw specific individuals or teams. Even the most incompetent and grandstanding umpires at least seem to make every attempt to remain impartial in their idiocy.
   35. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:09 PM (#3227556)
We'll give you those calls when you return the Eric Gregg calls and the resultant wins for Glavine and Maddux.

Eric Gregg? Seriously? Interesting.
   36. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:11 PM (#3227560)
EDIT: Incidentally, I loved your work on The Mouse and the Mask.


Fantastic album.
   37. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:12 PM (#3227563)
Which is the much more sane way to look at it, rather than some ump being out to screw specific individuals or teams. Even the most incompetent and grandstanding umpires at least seem to make every attempt to remain impartial in their idiocy.


Unless it's Joey Crawford we are talking about and he is reffing a Spurs game (more specifically a Tim Duncan played game).
   38. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:17 PM (#3227573)
Unless it's Joey Crawford

We know a significant sub-set of MLB umpires are HORRIFIC. Hahn, Angel Hernandez, Tim Merriweather, etc. We also know that the complaint "the refs are bought" is no longer exactly conspiracy mongering, thanks to the NBA. Sure, most of the time they're probably simply incompetent, but that's not exactly a selling point is it?

@26, you make a fine point with the eye/neck thing. Me personally, I'd rather take a chance on the neck, go for the aorta and just hope he bleeds out there where I can see.
   39. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:20 PM (#3227581)
Eric Gregg? Seriously? Interesting.
Yes, 1 game with Livan nonwithstanding. God bless G&M;, they could pinpoint a pitch 6" outside, 6" low and good ole' Eric would call strike after strike. Game after game. Year after year.
I consider the Livan game a hoisting on the petard.
   40. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:31 PM (#3227594)
@26, you make a fine point with the eye/neck thing. Me personally, I'd rather take a chance on the neck, go for the aorta and just hope he bleeds out there where I can see.

As long as someone is getting stabbed, I'm happy. Life is so frustrating. It's nice to vent.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:38 PM (#3227605)
There is pretty much no long time Braves fan that can complain about an umps officiating.


You're not famililar with Sam's work, I take it. There's probably some forum somewhere where he remains in a heated debate about that call from the Astros-Braves playoff series.
   42. cardsfanboy Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:39 PM (#3227606)
Yes, 1 game with Livan nonwithstanding. God bless G&M;, they could pinpoint a pitch 6" outside, 6" low and good ole' Eric would call strike after strike. Game after game. Year after year.
I consider the Livan game a hoisting on the petard.


agreed, can't believe a Braves fan would think that over the long haul Gregg was bad to the Braves. An Eric Gregg Braves game was an absolute farce. Make it a Glavine/Maddux Gregg game and there was absolutely no reason to even bother showing up to the ball park. The pitchers would get absolutely impossible to hit balls called strike all day long, but only while wearing a Braves uni.
   43. Dr Love Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:41 PM (#3227608)
Bill Hahn should be stabbed in the neck simply because of that idiotic mustache.


That stache is awesome. His umpiring, not so much.
   44. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:49 PM (#3227617)
Eric Gregg Braves game was an absolute farce. Make it a Glavine/Maddux Gregg game and there was absolutely no reason to even bother showing up to the ball park.

The phenomena you're referencing is called "hitting the spots." Eric Gregg was a terrible umpire. So terrible, in fact, that truly great pitchers like Maddux and Glavine could exploit his terribleness as needed. If a pitcher could hit the same spot a few inches wide over and over again, Gregg (and many other umpires) would call start calling it a strike by the third or fourth inning. This fact was exploited by Maddux and Glavine with great success - their job was to get outs, not to make sure the umps didn't make bad calls. In the same era other elite pitchers exploited the same tendency. Al Leiter was a master of getting inside cutters called strikes. Half of Randy Johnson's sliders never whiffed the actual strike zone. Kevin Brown would creep further and further out with every passing inning.

This is not an argument against the Braves' greatness. I'm already on record for replacing the morons in blue with lasers. Maybe keep one ceremonial ump around in case somone needs stabbing.
   45. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:50 PM (#3227619)
Yes, 1 game with Livan nonwithstanding. God bless G&M;, they could pinpoint a pitch 6" outside, 6" low and good ole' Eric would call strike after strike. Game after game. Year after year.
I consider the Livan game a hoisting on the petard.


This is ridiculous.
   46. Mike Webber Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:51 PM (#3227622)
Has no one mentioned what a bad ump CB Bucknor is in this thread because its just a given? Is it like saying "Well the sun came up today?"

Last year at the SABR convention I was standing with Mike Emiegh, and we decided to ask whoever came up to us who the worst umpire in baseball was. The next 4 or 5 people all said Bucknor.
   47. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:53 PM (#3227625)
"What form did this feud take? Did he refuse to give Glavine the opposite batter's box, I mean "outside corner", as a strike?"

Oh, snap!
   48. RJ in TO Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:54 PM (#3227627)
Last year at the SABR convention I was standing with Mike Emiegh, and we decided to ask whoever came up to us who the worst umpire in baseball was. The next 4 or 5 people all said Bucknor.


Had Cowboy Joe West recently retired? Because, unless he had, these people were all wrong.
   49. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:54 PM (#3227629)
The phenomena you're referencing is called "hitting the spots." Eric Gregg was a terrible umpire. So terrible, in fact, that truly great pitchers like Maddux and Glavine could exploit his terribleness as needed.
The phenomena you're referencing is called "hitting the spots." Eric Gregg was a terrible umpire. So terrible, in fact, that truly great pitchers like Livan Hernandezcould exploit his terribleness as needed...
   50. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:54 PM (#3227631)
@45, yes, it is ridiculous hyperbole. Maddux and Glavine would routinely paint the black, and by the fifth or sixth of games they were dealing, they'd get calls an inch off the black too. But they never routinely got calls "six inches" off the plate. Never.
   51. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:57 PM (#3227633)
they'd get calls an inch off the black too. But they never routinely got calls "six inches" off the plate. Never.
OK, I was hyperbolic. But 1" is hyperbolic too. I'll split the difference.
   52. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3227641)
The phenomena you're referencing is called "hitting the spots." Eric Gregg was a terrible umpire. So terrible, in fact, that truly great pitchers like Livan Hernandezcould exploit his terribleness as needed...

The primary problem with Game 6 of the '97 NLCS, from a Braves' fan perspective, was that 1) Hernandez was NOT hitting his spots. He was just slinging #### up there randomly and Gregg would call it strikes. At the same time, Maddux WAS hitting his spots, better and more consistently than Hernandez, closer even to the actual strike zone, and he was getting no calls at all. The problem wasn't the ineptitude of Gregg - a well established fact long prior to that game - but the clear bias in his calls. If there were ever a "Joey Crawford" moment in MLB, that was it. Gregg was *clearly* calling the game in Florida's favor.
   53. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3227642)
"But they never routinely got calls "six inches" off the plate. Never."

Six may be a bit much, but I don't think there's a jury in the world that'd convict me for saying three or four.

Which is not to criticize the pitchers, of course. If someone gives you a a strike, you take it.
   54. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3227644)
There's probably some forum somewhere where he remains in a heated debate about that call from the Astros-Braves playoff series.

Which one?
   55. SoSH U at work Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:08 PM (#3227654)
Which one?


Which call or which series?

I don't remember all the details, though I'm it involved a disputed homer/play against the wall at Minute Maid. I'm sure you can take it from there.
   56. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:19 PM (#3227674)
Um, probably the double by that worthless little fifth outfielder that they called a HR and ended the game. Maybe the series. I remember that sort of. It's all redrum haze but I vaguely recall it. Not the Beltran-must-die series.
   57. Lassus Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3227697)
Between this and DeRosa, why do I get the idea that Sam is sitting in an airport somewhere on a flight delay?
   58. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:46 PM (#3227700)
No "love" for Doug Eddings?
   59. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3227708)
Cry me a river. Call it "Glavine's Revenge."
   60. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:49 PM (#3227709)
But they never routinely got calls "six inches" off the plate. Never.

Well, that's simply not true. It wasn't "routine", but I witnessed it firsthand multiple times. And not just with Braves pitchers but others as well. Until Qestec showed up and exposed some of this silliness you had umps calling some absurd strike zones.
   61. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:57 PM (#3227725)
Every team has at least one ump who they think is trying to screw them. In the case of the Jays, it used to be Joe Brinkman (who probably was trying to screw the Jays, but only after Ernie Whitt accused him of it in his autobiography), and now it's Phil Cuzzi and Angel Hernandez.


Hernandez may zap the Jays on occasion, but the Mets are on his permanent sheeit list...
   62. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:02 PM (#3227729)
Joe West is trying to maintain the legacy of Ken Kaiser where sloth and stupidity were hailed as being an "understated approach to the game"
   63. cardsfanboy Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:05 PM (#3227733)

Hernandez may zap the Jays on occasion, but the Mets are on his permanent sheeit list...

I'm sure he has it out more for TLR than the Mets, of course everybody thinks Angel has it out for their team, he is not only bad, he's confrontational causing more problems because he thinks the fans are paying to see him get into arguments.
   64. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:09 PM (#3227736)
Joe West, as crew chief, got all the controversial calls correct in Game 6 of the 2004 ALCS. I have no quarrel with the man.

Greg Gibson isn't getting enough hate in this thread. Talk about a confrontational jackass.
   65. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:12 PM (#3227738)
Angel Hernandez hates EVERYONE. I suspect that the only reason he's an umpire is to show all of those people who said he couldn't play baseball how much authority he really has.

On the "six inches outside" calls, I still maintain they were never called with any uniformity. What did happen prior to Questec was a movement of the strike zone down and away from the rule-book designed zone. This happened, oddly enough, right around the time that the league expanded and offense started jumping (1993ish.) Umpires started calling pitches low and away strikes, but ceased to call high strikes altogether. At the time it was suggested that they were adjusting for the power surges by making hitters at least go out and around balls to hit homers. This benefitted pitchers like Glavine and Randy Johnson, but took away "going up the ladder" from pitchers like Kevin Millwood.
   66. RJ in TO Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:12 PM (#3227739)
Greg Gibson isn't getting enough hate in this thread. Talk about a confrontational jackass.


I can't remember - was he the jerk who was baiting Milton Bradley in San Diego, or was that a different jerk?
   67. I Left Tim Raines Down In Africa Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:18 PM (#3227747)
Pretty much any umpire who's come along since the umpires marched off a cliff late last decade and Bud Light bent over to create this World Umpires Association nonsense is going to be a ####. Insert whatever name you wish. They're all going to suck.
   68. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:19 PM (#3227748)
I can't remember - was he the jerk who was baiting Milton Bradley in San Diego, or was that a different jerk?

See, this is why we need more stabbings. There are so many horrific umps that we can't even remember them all. You have one, just ONE bleed out on the field and they'd get the message.
   69. cardsfanboy Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:22 PM (#3227750)
Pretty much any umpire who's come along since the umpires marched off a cliff late last decade and Bud Light bent over to create this World Umpires Association nonsense is going to be a ####. Insert whatever name you wish. They're all going to suck.

???? Umpires over the past decade have been outstanding in comparison to the prior two decades. The quality of umpiring nowadays is massively superior to what it was before Questec and the Umpire strike(one of the best thing to happen to baseball was the umpires failed strike)
   70. I Left Tim Raines Down In Africa Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:28 PM (#3227755)
???? Umpires over the past decade have been outstanding in comparison to the prior two decades. The quality of umpiring nowadays is massively superior to what it was before Questec and the Umpire strike(one of the best thing to happen to baseball was the umpires failed strike)

And they're mostly confrontational ######## who go completely aggro on anyone who dare question them.

Did you see the debacle with Todd Tichenor earlier this year? The fact that we can sit here and name Angel Hernandez, Doug Eddings, Phil Cuzzi, CB Bucknor, Joe West, Greg Gibson, Mike Winters and on and on as embarrassments to their craft runs counter to the argument you make. There is no set of checks and balances for umpires.

That said, no umpire has ever caused a team to lose a game. Not even Don Denkinger or Tim McClelland.
   71. cardsfanboy Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:33 PM (#3227761)
Did you see the debacle with Todd Tichenor earlier this year? The fact that we can sit here and name Angel Hernandez, Doug Eddings, Phil Cuzzi, CB Bucknor, Joe West, Greg Gibson, Mike Winters and on and on as embarrassments to their craft runs counter to the argument you make. There is no set of checks and balances for umpires.

and most of those named are the ones that survived the firing, the quality of umpiring has improved tremendously and even the confrontational nature isn't nearly as bad as it was before the strike. I do think this year confrontation seems to be up a little more than a few previous seasons. but the arrogance isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, it's not even close to as bad to be honest.
   72. Tike Redman's Shattered Dreams (shayborg) Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:43 PM (#3227768)
Video of the triple ejection last night is here by the way.
   73. KJOK Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:43 PM (#3227770)
Bobby Cox generally starts whinning in the first inning of almost every game about balls and strikes. If the umpires followed the rules, he'd probably be ejected every game.
   74. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:47 PM (#3227772)
If the umpires followed the rules, he'd probably be ejected every game.

If they followed the rules he wouldn't need to lobby.
   75. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:47 PM (#3227773)
The nadir of umpiring quality was the mid to late 90's. The Phillips fiasco was a godsend..............
   76. OCD SS Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3227777)
If they followed the rules he wouldn't need to lobby.


Yes, because Bobby Cox is actually lobbying for the rules to be applied fairly across the board. He and Mike Scioscia and incorruptible that way.
   77. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3227778)
As somebody who is not a fan of either team involved, I can say that Game 6 of the 1997 NLCS is the worst-called strike zone I've ever seen. That final called strike, with (if I recall) a big slow curveball waaaaay off the outside corner, left me speechless.

The Sox-Braves game yesterday was also pretty poorly called - it also was arguably the first time this year that the Red Sox couldn't put a reliever out there who would just shut down the opponent for an inning. The Red Sox were very lucky to win that game...
   78. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3227779)
The fact that I know who Richie Phillips is saddens me.
   79. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: June 22, 2009 at 05:13 PM (#3227811)
Chipper, Bobby such cox about umpiring
   80. twon8 Posted: June 22, 2009 at 05:41 PM (#3227863)
Me personally, I'd rather take a chance on the neck, go for the aorta and just hope he bleeds out there where I can see.


I think you meant carotid, as you'd need a long stick to hit the aorta from the neck and there would be a lot of digging around to get to it.
   81. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 22, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3227875)
I think you meant carotid, as you'd need a long stick to hit the aorta from the neck and there would be a lot of digging around to get to it.

Okay, but for the record, I'm not opposed to a lot of digging.
   82. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 22, 2009 at 05:53 PM (#3227889)
Okay, but for the record, I'm not opposed to a lot of digging.

I was worried about Sam earlier today -- lots of anger -- but it seems like he has found a much happier place now.
   83. Dolf Lucky Posted: June 22, 2009 at 06:07 PM (#3227924)
The "Umpire X is out to get my team" discussion is merely a race for 2nd place, until one of these umps writes a book in which he expresses glee over something bad happening to your team.

Here's wishing Pete Rose would have dropped a piledriver on Dave Pallone.
   84. jwb Posted: June 22, 2009 at 07:33 PM (#3228095)
Lazy, lousy umpiring. O'Flaherty missed the mitt by a foot, so Hahn called it a ball, despite the fact that it was a strike. This is the flip side of Maddux, Glavine, et al. getting calls by hitting mitts just a bit outside.

The umpires job is to stay out of the way, not become the story.
It has been sliding in that direction since Ron Luciano (1968-80), maybe before, since the beginning of his career is more or less coincident with my beginnings as a fan. He wasn't a bad umpire at all, but his histrionics had a "Hey, everybody look at me!" quality that is completely inappropriate.

I had an aunt who thought Luciano was great because he waved his arms a lot. She also thought Seiji Ozawa was a great orchestral conductor because he waved his arms a lot. I never met her longtime boyfriend but I imagine that he, too, waved his arms a lot.
   85. phredbird Posted: June 22, 2009 at 07:55 PM (#3228134)
That said, no umpire has ever caused a team to lose a game. Not even Don Denkinger


*phredbird's head explodes*
   86. Lassus Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:05 PM (#3228149)
Hey now, there's no need to get on Ozawa here. He IS a good conductor.
   87. The Original SJ Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:11 PM (#3228158)
Why do the Braves wear those BP jerseys? Why does everyone where them? A pox on all their houses.
   88. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:20 PM (#3228169)
What does everyone where them?

I'm not sure.

Why does everyone where them?

This is not much better.
   89. Brian Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:30 PM (#3228177)
I just wish he'd have kept his blind, sorry ass behind the plate and went back to guessing balls and strikes. The confrontational crap has to go. I'd love to see MLB fine and suspend this jerkoff.
   90. The Original SJ Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:31 PM (#3228179)
Indeed, it is one of the worst posts in mainland history.

Also, sleep with one eye open at the invitiational.
   91. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:38 PM (#3228186)
The door will be barricaded.
   92. The Original SJ Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3228194)
you think a barricade can stop me, I am like the Burn Notice guy.

well, like his big, booze drinking friend.
   93. Marty Winn Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3228207)
52. Sam Hutcheson Posted: June 22, 2009 at 11:00 AM (#3227641)

The primary problem with Game 6 of the '97 NLCS, from a Braves' fan perspective, was that 1) Hernandez was NOT hitting his spots. He was just slinging #### up there randomly and Gregg would call it strikes. At the same time, Maddux WAS hitting his spots, better and more consistently than Hernandez, closer even to the actual strike zone, and he was getting no calls at all. The problem wasn't the ineptitude of Gregg - a well established fact long prior to that game - but the clear bias in his calls. If there were ever a "Joey Crawford" moment in MLB, that was it. Gregg was *clearly* calling the game in Florida's favor.


I'm a huge Maddux fan and even I was going to call BS on this. I looked at the game log (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/FLO/FLO199710120.shtml) Maddux pitched a great game too and struck out 9 with 1 walk, 4 hits, and 2 runs in 7 innings. Then to Livan 15 Ks, 3 hits, 1 run. The think that got me is that Livan got 37 called strikes to just 18 for Maddux. That seemed an incredible difference but then on the other side Maddux had 63/86 (73%) pitches called strikes to 88/143 (62%). Among pitches that were not hit or swung at Maddux had a 18:17 strike:ball ratio vs Livan's had 37:52 ratio. I'm torn. I wonder how much of our memory is tainted by the helpless AB by Fred McGriff to end the game.

77. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:50 PM (#3227778)
As somebody who is not a fan of either team involved, I can say that Game 6 of the 1997 NLCS is the worst-called strike zone I've ever seen. That final called strike, with (if I recall) a big slow curveball waaaaay off the outside corner, left me speechless.


It was actually Game 5, In Game 6 Kevin Brown closed it up over Glavine. For comparison there were 28 and 23 looking strikes for the 2 teams in that game.
   94. SoSH U at work Posted: June 22, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3228208)
well, like his big, booze drinking friend.


That would be Sam. He'll rough a guy up if necessary, but I'm not sure where he stands on stabbing umpires in the neck.
   95. nick swisher hygiene Posted: June 22, 2009 at 09:24 PM (#3228249)
in a way I'm almost glad of MLB's youtube policy--imagine if we could all go to the video of that game 7 now--no baseball fan would ever do an hour of productive work again...
   96. jwb Posted: June 22, 2009 at 11:03 PM (#3228386)
Hey now, there's no need to get on Ozawa here. He IS a good conductor.
True, Lassus, but it has nothing to do with his histrionic arm-flailing. Same for Luciano (Ron, not Lucky).
   97. BringBackTimTeufel Posted: June 23, 2009 at 01:27 AM (#3228683)
The fact that there are notorious umpires like Hahn - "Balk-a-day Bob Davis", Tim Merriweather, etc, et al - simply proves the point. Replace them all with the laser eye as far as I'm concerned.

The great thing about this post is that neither of these men, "Bob Davis" and "Tim Merriweather", actually exists.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
BFFB
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogEscape from Cuba: Yasiel Puig’s Untold Journey to the Dodgers
(4 - 11:16pm, Apr 17)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October

NewsblogChris Resop - The Most Interesting Reliever in the World
(17 - 11:16pm, Apr 17)
Last: Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige

NewsblogOrioles launch D.C. invasion with billboard near Nationals Park
(12 - 11:08pm, Apr 17)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October

NewsblogDaniel Bryan's 'YES!' chant has spread to the Pirates' dugout
(68 - 11:04pm, Apr 17)
Last: andrewberg

NewsblogOMNICHATTER for April 17, 2014
(127 - 10:57pm, Apr 17)
Last: Davo Dozier (Mastroianni)

NewsblogDesign Room: Top 10 Logos in MLB History.
(12 - 10:55pm, Apr 17)
Last: if nature called, ladodger34 would listen

NewsblogGeorge Brett, Inspiration for the Song “Royals”, Meets Lorde
(27 - 10:50pm, Apr 17)
Last: Greg K

NewsblogOT: NBA Monthly Thread - April 2014
(303 - 10:42pm, Apr 17)
Last: NJ in DC

NewsblogMLB: Offense's performance vs. Brewers favors Matheny's interpretation of stats
(6 - 10:14pm, Apr 17)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogRobothal: What a relief! A’s could use bullpen differently than other teams
(4 - 9:50pm, Apr 17)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOT: The NHL is finally back thread, part 2
(135 - 9:46pm, Apr 17)
Last: zack

NewsblogMinuteman News Center: Giandurco: This means WAR
(68 - 9:08pm, Apr 17)
Last: zenbitz

NewsblogGleeman: Mets minor league team is hosting “Seinfeld night”
(138 - 8:59pm, Apr 17)
Last: Moe Greene

NewsblogOTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments
(1584 - 7:52pm, Apr 17)
Last: Publius Publicola

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 4-17-2014
(15 - 7:43pm, Apr 17)
Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

 

Page rendered in 1.0199 seconds
52 querie(s) executed