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Tuesday, July 17, 2012

What have Royals fans done to deserve Jonathan Sanchez?

Sure, Sidney Ponson would listen if the Royals called.

As if watching Melky Cabrera win All-Star game MVP while hitting .350 for the Giants wasn’t bad enough for Royals fans, now they’re being forced to watch Jonathan Sanchez implode every fifth game.

Sanchez, who was acquired from the Giants for Cabrera this offseason, has been the worst starting pitcher in baseball this year. Or at least the worst among starters who haven’t already been demoted from the rotation.

Sanchez’s latest clunker came last night, as he failed to make it out of the second inning against the weak-hitting Mariners while allowing seven runs. He’s now 1-6 with a 7.76 ERA in 12 starts, with more walks (44) than strikeouts (36) and 109 total baserunners in 53 innings.

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, jonathan sanchez, melky cabrera, royals, terrible trades

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   1. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 17, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4184973)
As Jeff Sullivan of Lookout Landing cracked: "Sure, Jonathan Sanchez has been walking everybody, but on the plus side his strikeouts are way down. Jonathan Sanchez looks at Kyle Drabek and thinks 'that guy has it all figured out.'"
   2. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 17, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4184991)
June 8, 2006

Moore's been GM for longer than Allard Baird

Baird's teams went 381-576


Who are the best players on the Royals?
by WAR 2010-2012:

1 Alex Gordon (inherited)
2 Billy Butler (inherited)
3 Melky Cabrera (gone for Sanchez- but hey, Moore kept Frenchy instead)
4 Alcides Escobar (well he got SOMETHING for Greinke...)
5 Mike Moustakas (ok, clear win for Dayton)
6 Salvador Perez (whooo? inclined to regard this as a small sample size fluke...
7 David DeJesus (inherited, traded by Moore for pocket lint)
8 Jarrod Dyson (WAR really really likes his D.... see Salvador comment)
9 Mike Aviles (inherited, traded for pocket lint AND a minor leaguer with nice peripherals)
10 Chris Getz (acquired for Teahen... have no idea how this guy has positive WAR...)

I could go on, I could do pitching, but Royals fans are depressed enough...

As far as I can tell Moore does one, maybe two things well:
Good: 1: He drafts well;
Maybe: 2: He develops/runs the farm system well- or maybe the success/presence of good young prospects is just a matter of #1

EVERYTHING ELSE that a GM does? He seems to be bad at.
Basically he's Chuck LaMar, and like Chucky in 2005, it's time to go, he did what he was hired to do and now the Royals need someone else to take over and do the next job- turning the young talent assembled by Moore into a winning team.
   3. zonk Posted: July 17, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4184992)
Shows what I know...

I thought that was a good deal by the Royals -- not that I thought Sanchez was a world-beater, but I figured he's a perfectly fine mid-rotation SP and Melky was an OF that Royals didn't need and no one should particularly want.

For my penance, I think I'll spend the rest of the week believing I'm smarter than only half of MLB GMs...
   4. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 17, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4184996)
Deserve's got nothing do to with it.
   5. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 17, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4185024)
This is what I said in the trade thread


While this looks like a classic case of selling high (trading Melky after 2011) and buying low (Sanchez 2011)- I can't help but think that it's possible Dayton blundered again- Melky is far more likely to replicate his 2011 than Sanchez is to replicate his 2010- and Melky 2011 is worth far more than Sanchez 2010...

What's most likely is that this will be a push- neither player will do enough to get anyone excited


I really should have stuck with the "Dayton blundered again" opinion, rather than equivocating and calling it a push...
   6. Topher Posted: July 17, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4185028)
Small quibble with #2 ... Salvador Perez is a small sample size fluke but only because he's not a 900 OPS guy. Pretty sure that if he hadn't burned up his rookie eligibility last season, the just-turned 22 year old would have been on most top 100 prospect lists so he doesn't deserve the "whooo?" derision that would associate him with the likes a of guy such as Jarrod Dyson.
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4185030)

I could go on, I could do pitching, but Royals fans are depressed enough...


In six seasons, Dayton Moore has drafted 151 pitchers. Only one has made a MLB start - Danny Duffy - and he's out for the year with Tommy John surgery. The only other pitchers that look close - Mike Montgomery and Chris Dwyer - have majorly regressed. Monty was recently demoted from AAA to AA.
   8. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 17, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4185036)
I thought that was a good deal by the Royals -- not that I thought Sanchez was a world-beater, but I figured he's a perfectly fine mid-rotation SP and Melky was an OF that Royals didn't need and no one should particularly want.


This was my take too. It looked to me like a real "buy low/sell high" deal that at worst would be a "everyone involved sucks."
   9. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4185041)
Moore's a Peter Principle poster boy. Tremendous scouting director, incompetent general manager. There's really nothing more nuanced to the story that that.
   10. Jim Wisinski Posted: July 17, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4185047)
The other problem facing the Royals under Moore so far is that they're suffering Baltimore Disease, a deadly (to a GM's job) condition where well thought-of prospects flop in the majors, regress after early success, or take a long time to meet expectations. Billy Butler is the only absolute success so far (I'll wait to make sure Moustakas doesn't pull a Hosmer in the near future before adding him to the list).
   11. SM Posted: July 17, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4185194)
Well they won't have Sanchez to kick around anymore.
   12. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 17, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4185197)
The only cure is Littlefield's Ointment, a toxic brew of never having any well-thought-of prospects in the first place, giving any marginally successful farm system products $20 million contracts and then instantly announcing that they are too expensive and need to be traded, and getting well-thought-of prospects in return who can bomb instantly in the majors without ever being able to engender false hope in the minors.
   13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4185213)
You always wanted a champion
I only wanted a winning team
Haven't seen one since 2003
How am I gonna get through?
How am I gonna get through?

I come here looking for Duffy
And end up living with Bruce Chen, whoa-oh
Now you left me with Sanchez
How am I gonna get through?
How am I gonna get through?

I bought you tickets, I watched your games
I bought the jerseys with crappy players names
Every day, so many drinks
And yet you keep on losing, so tell me
What have I, what have I, what have I done to deserve this?
What have I, what have I, what have I done to deserve this?
What have I, what have I, what have I done to deserve this?
   14. Zach Posted: July 17, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4185215)
6 Salvador Perez (whooo? inclined to regard this as a small sample size fluke...

That's a little unfair to Perez. Playing better than Johnny Bench in his best year is a small sample size fluke. But you can regress that a long way and still have a fantastic prospect.

Until he made the majors, his reputation was as a defensive specialist.
   15. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 17, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4185222)
Jonathan Sanchez was just designated for assignment.

Boy, that trade really didn't work out so well, huh?
   16. Nasty Nate Posted: July 17, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4185226)
In six seasons, Dayton Moore has drafted 151 pitchers. Only one has made a MLB start


Oh my God, is this true?
   17. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4185236)
In six seasons, Dayton Moore has drafted 151 pitchers. Only one has made a MLB start


Oh my God, is this true?

Assuming it is I wonder how unusual it is. Having just one guy make a start seems low but I wouldn't be surprised if most teams were able to count draft picks since 2006 that have made an MLB start on one hand.

Just as a point of reference the Sox have had only three pitchers drafted since 2006 make a start (Masterson, Weiland, Bard).
   18. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4185241)
That's not counting 2006 for Dayton since he was began work with the Royals the day after the draft.

21 pitchers drafted since 2007 have accumulated over 1 WAR in their career already - none were drafted by Dayton Moore.
   19. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4185243)
I don't think it's that bad. One might expect none of those drafted in 2009, 2010 or 2011 to have reached the majors yet, since in all of the majors the only such pitchers are Strasburg, Leake, Minor, Sale, Pomeranz, Alex White, Garrett Richards, and Jacob Turner. The Royals are ahead of the team to which they are most often compared, as the Pirates have had zero pitchers drafted in 2007-2012 make a start.
   20. Bhaakon Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4185246)
You stole the Supersonics from Seattle and switched out their awesome team name for a lame one. I hope that Sanchez is the first of many plagues visited upon your house until the wrong is rectified.
   21. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4185247)
You stole the Supersonics from Seattle and switched out their awesome team name for a lame one. I hope that Sanchez is the first of many plagues visited upon your house until the wrong is rectified.


Oklahoma =/= Kansas
   22. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4185248)
You stole the Supersonics from Seattle and switched out their awesome team name for a lame one. I hope that Sanchez is the first of many plagues visited upon your house until the wrong is rectified.
Dude, that's OKLAHOMA City, not Kansas City. They're like 350 miles apart from one another.
   23. Tripon Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4185249)
Kansas City did not steal the Supersonics, that was Oklahoma City.
   24. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4185251)
Larry Mahnken would say that nobody gets any Cokes for any of this, FWIW.
   25. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4185252)
I think he means when Kansas City stole Cincinnati's NBA team in 1972 and took away their awesome team name of the "Royals". Nobody could be so out of it as to think there's an NBA team called the "Kansas City Thunder".
   26. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4185254)
jake odorizzi looks like he is a legit item. that and escobar would be quite the cost controlled haul for greinke. and if cain manages to rebound from injury and contribute i think at minimum he could be a fourth outfielder
   27. zenbitz Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4185277)
Clearly you are all punished for Neyer's defense of Bill James [please redirect all hijack to the James thread]
   28. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 17, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4185287)
What have Royals fans done to deserve Jonathan Sanchez?


Booed Robbie Cano?
   29. Walt Davis Posted: July 17, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4185309)
Oklahoma =/= Kansas

You'd like to believe that, wouldn't you?
   30. bfan Posted: July 17, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4185312)
21 pitchers drafted since 2007 have accumulated over 1 WAR in their career already - none were drafted by Dayton Moore.


Well that means at least 9 teams do not have one, so it is not that bad that KC does not.

On Melky; Moore isn't alone on that either-the Yankees and the Braves gave up on him too. it isn't as if KC gave up a HOF player to get Cabrera.

I feel like this year the Royals need to sniff .500, which seems possible and represents improvement, and next year be 84-90 win team, which seems possible; there can be a lot of very good bats in that line-up.
   31. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4185329)
IIRC the Royals also got Ryan Verdugo in the deal too. He's a 25-year-old AAA pitcher whose numbers don't look that great, so I doubt he'll amount to much, but just thought I'd note that.

Melky's performance the last two years has been ridiculous. I usually expect stuff like that to happen when guys go to the Yankees or Braves, not after they leave.

Anyway, this thread makes today my annual Bruce Chen Day - i.e., the day every year where I see something that makes me think, "Holy ####, Bruce Chen is still in the majors?" It's an annual event which has taken place every year since at least 2003, with the exception of 2008 when Bruce Chen actually wasn't in the majors (or minors). Obviously 2008 has made every subsequent Bruce Chen Day that much more surprising.
   32. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 17, 2012 at 07:03 PM (#4185332)
On Melky; Moore isn't alone on that either-the Yankees and the Braves gave up on him too.


The Braves gave up on him because he was fat and hit .255/.317/.354

With the Royals he slimmed down and hit .305/.339/.470

Of course the Royals felt they had a glut of OFs, and that Frenchy, who hit .285/.329/.476 for them was a better bet moving forward...
   33. The District Attorney Posted: July 17, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4185335)
Joe Sheehan was vehemently arguing two weeks ago that the Royals should "buy low" and extend Sanchez's contract. (I wanna say Joe suggested something like $6M/2 yr.)

I predict this will go down as one of Sheehan's weirder moments. Of course, it is still possible Sanchez comes back (and it would probably be a while from now, if it happened.)

As for the Melky trade, as #5's link shows, I CALLED IT. WOOOOOOO!!!!!! *balloons drop from sky*
   34. bfan Posted: July 17, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4185419)
The Braves gave up on him because he was fat and hit .255/.317/.354

With the Royals he slimmed down and hit .305/.339/.470


I realize that second-guessing is what makes baseball fandom so fun, so it must be condoned, but isn't that a classic case of the Royals selling high and being called smart? You look at Melky's career after that year with KC and you think he will never hit like that again, based on the rest of his career, and you find someone who is willing to trade for the higher valued Melky, and you let them suffer the crash back to Earth. Of course 90% of this board knew he would go on to increase his numbers with SF, and not digress back to his career norms...
   35. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 17, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4185491)
It was a paradoxical situation. You saw them selling high, and said "Great work". Then you realized he was going to the Giants and realized that about five times a year the Giants add a veteran that someone has given up on and he hits .300/.400/.500, so if they're actually TRADING for a veteran it's even more likely that he'll do something good.
   36. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4185540)
I thought it was going to be one of those Lastings Milledge-Ryan Church deals that ended up being pretty meaningless at the end of the day even though there was a lot of hand-wringing involved at the time. Never imagined Melky would get even better.
   37. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4185680)

I don't think it's that bad. One might expect none of those drafted in 2009, 2010 or 2011 to have reached the majors yet, since in all of the majors the only such pitchers are Strasburg, Leake, Minor, Sale, Pomeranz, Alex White, Garrett Richards, and Jacob Turner. The Royals are ahead of the team to which they are most often compared, as the Pirates have had zero pitchers drafted in 2007-2012 make a start.



Well that means at least 9 teams do not have one, so it is not that bad that KC does not.


Yes, except (a) the Royals frequently draft higher than most teams; and (b) Dayton Moore made pitching his main priority when he came here; and (c) its hard to see how the Royals will become competitive without developing some starting pitching. Like I said, there doesn't seem to be anyone on the immediate horizon that can help except Jake Odorizzi, and he was acquired in the Greinke trade, not drafted (minor quibble, sure).
   38. JJ1986 Posted: July 17, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4185687)
Aaron Crow has 2.0 career WAR
   39. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4185709)
Oklahoma =/= Kansas

You'd like to believe that, wouldn't you?


Oklahoma is the one where the major colleges tend to win football games, I think.
   40. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4185724)
Aaron Crow has 2.0 career WAR


Dayton has done a great job drafting relievers. Crow, Greg Holland, Louis Coleman have all been fantastic and there are a few more on the way.
   41. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4185940)
I realize that second-guessing is what makes baseball fandom so fun, so it must be condoned, but isn't that a classic case of the Royals selling high and being called smart?



Ok, Melky had hit (OPS+) 93, 83 and 121. So it would seem at the time that 2011's 121 was the "high." (3 year average 101)

Sanchez* had pitched (ERA+) 100, 127 and 81 (3 year average 105).

This is where "scouting" comes in- Melky's best year was 2011, Sanchez's was 2010. Looking at both guys who was a better bet to repeat that big year? To me it was Melky- this was a guy who'd been a near MLB-average player at age 21, he'd finally taken conditioning/training seriously, sure he could lapse, but maybe not. Sanchez? Sure he'd been good in 2010, but you know what? His flaws were still there, and look at his peripherals, what was different in 2010 from 2008-09/11? That nice shiny .255 BABIP. His career BABIP is .294, perfectly normal- a .294 BABIP with his walk rate means too many baserunners even with a K per inning.

The problem wasn't so much selling Melky "high,"- you are right it was reasonable to assume that Melky was not going t be as good as 2011 (let alone better) - the trouble was buying Sanchez "low"-


*I had Sanchez on my roto team 3 different years, which is less than I had Ollie Perez, one of these days I'm going to stop falling for that type of bum
   42. Dale Sams Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4185942)
You'd like to believe that, wouldn't you?


Absolutely true. On our recent trip to Denver, I insisted on our driving out of the way through Oklahoma, with...oh...trees, bluffs, quaint small towns, rather than the mind-numbing Kansas. Though Kansas does have a big prairie dog town.
   43. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4187960)
Royals have dealt Sanchez to Colorado for Jeremy Guthrie, according to Jon Morosi.

An old fashioned crap-for-crap trade! Love it!
   44. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 20, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4187972)
Between this and the blockbuster with Houston and Toronto it seems baseball teams are taking a page from politics and putting out the trash on Friday. 12 players traded and the best one so far is JA Happ.
   45. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 20, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4187983)
This year Jeremy Guthrie has accomplished the amazing feat of leading the league in runs allowed without even pitching enough innings to qualify for league leaderboards. (72 runs in 90.2 innings)

Sanchez has given up 47 runs in 53.1 innings (12 starts). This gives him the second-worst ERA in the majors for pitchers with 7 or more starts. Nick Blackburn is even worse and has actually made 13 starts. Maybe next the Rockies should trade Josh Outman for him.

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