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Thursday, April 18, 2013

White Pitcher: “Obama Gonna Take Our Guns Away, Man”

“Today’s day and age has gotten so crazy. Shoot man, Obama wants to take our guns from us and everything. You got all this stuff going on; it’s just a little bit insane for me, man. I’m not sure how to take it.”

 

ecwcat Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:29 PM | 133 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4417976)
I'm sure gun enthusiasts everywhere are delighted to have a well-spoken young man such as Papelbon speaking on their behalf.
   2. Dale Sams Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4417980)
ecwcat is Milo Bloom and I claim my five pounds.
   3. JJ1986 Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:57 PM (#4417984)
The title of this article is quite odd considering this wasn't Alex White.
   4. Guapo Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4417985)
I, for one, am looking forward to the Phillies PR department releasing a carefully crafted retraction of this statement which will purportedly be from Papelbon, but will sound nothing like him.
   5. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4417987)
Talk about stealing repoz' schtick. It's baseball season now. Can't we argue about Austin Jackson's improved contact rate or how the Astros might not be as bad as we think they are?
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:01 PM (#4417991)

The title of this article is quite odd considering this wasn't Alex White.


Or a pitcher for the White Sox.
   7. ASmitty Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:02 PM (#4417992)
Can't we argue about Austin Jackson's improved contact rate


He is a bona fide star now, right? He seems really underappreciated at the moment. Watching him early this year, it blows my mind that he's the same guy who was basically an automatic three pitch punch out in the playoffs two years ago.
   8. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:04 PM (#4417996)
He is a bona fide star now, right?

Looks like it to me. I'll hedge a little to see if this new contact sticks but even if he regresses a little, he's still a potential .330 hitter, with good pop and speed playing a good centerfield for what I think is the AL's best team. Sounds like a star to me.
   9. ASmitty Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:07 PM (#4418002)
Jackson's SB efficiency is good, but the volume is (understandably) low. I wonder how much value he would accumulate on the bases if he wasn't getting on in front of Cabrera and Fielder.
   10. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:07 PM (#4418003)
Can't we argue about Austin Jackson's improved contact rate


For a minute I thought you were talking about Austin Kearns, because all Austins look the same to me.
   11. Cowboy Popup Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4418007)
Good hijack Shooty! Fangraphs posted this article yesterday. Basically, Jackson's K rate improvement is unprecedented.

What's super cool, IMO, is that Jackson has been cutting down his K's while maintaining his ridiculously insane BABIP. What a fantastic and unique talent.
   12. ASmitty Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4418008)
Double post.
   13. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4418011)
Jackson's SB efficiency is good, but the volume is (understandably) low. I wonder how much value he would accumulate on the bases if he wasn't getting on in front of Cabrera and Fielder.

It's probably not worth it to find out, but he could probably steal 30-40 if they really wanted him to.
   14. McCoy Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4418013)
For a minute I thought you were talking about Austin Kearns, because all Austins look the same to me.

Flat with some rolling hills?
   15. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4418015)
What's super cool, IMO, is that Jackson has been cutting down his K's while maintaining his ridiculously insane BABIP.

He's had a weirdly consistent inflated BABIP. At one point do we say it's a skill?
   16. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4418022)
Flat with some rolling hills?


Decent lakes and rivers. Solid music scene if you're not there in mid-March.
   17. ASmitty Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4418036)
If I may hijack the hijack with a different, Tigers related hijack:

I moved to Michigan a few years back, and have seen a lot of Tiger games since then. the other day I was struck by a certain similarity between their best pitcher, Verlander, and their best hitter, Cabrera. Verlander can throw 100 mph whenever he wants, but unlike a lot of flame throwers, he doesn't go all-out very often and prefers to stay in the mid-90's. This gives him better command, allows him to get deeper into games, and also allows him to basically use the occasional 100 mph fastball as an extra pitch. So for him, the value of his power comes from the value of being able to overpower hitters without going all out.

Likewise, when Cabrera gets into certain situations, he keeps his front foot down and uses a pure two-strike approach. This keeps his Ks down and helps him extend at bats. The thing is, like Verlander, Cabrera has so much power that he can use the two-strikle approach and still hit 30+ HRs. So, for Cabrera, a lot of the value of his prodigious natural power is that he can use a more controlled approach at the plate while still mashing.

You so often see guys with power or huge heaters constantly going full blast out of infatuation with their natural talent. But these two guys us their talent in restrained, but effective way.
   18. Cowboy Popup Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4418054)
He's had a weirdly consistent inflated BABIP. At one point do we say it's a skill?

I'm not exactly the most qualified guy to answer this, but I've been assuming it is a skill since last year. He's got 2034 PAs and a career .372 BABIP, that can't be a fluke. He may lose that as he gets older, but right now, I think that is who he is, which makes him awesome. FWIW, Zips projects him as having a .342 BABIP, but he's only once had a BABIP that low (.340 in 2011). His next lowest is .371, last year.

The closest active player is Votto, with a .359 career BABIP. Jackson is currently 5th all time behind Keeler, Cobb and two guys who I have never heard of (Tom McCreery and Tuck Turner) who I assume have been dead a long time.

A 3-4 year run like this isn't completely unheard of in the modern game. Jeter went .375, .396, .386 from 98-00, sandwiched by a couple of years in the .340s.
   19. GEB4000 Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:31 PM (#4418060)
Obama is having a hard time boiling that frog when he can't turn the heat past simmer. Your guns are safe for now Papelbon.
   20. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 18, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4418068)
Likewise, when Cabrera gets into certain situations, he keeps his front foot down and uses a pure two-strike approach. This keeps his Ks down and helps him extend at bats. The thing is, like Verlander, Cabrera has so much power that he can use the two-strikle approach and still hit 30+ HRs. So, for Cabrera, a lot of the value of his prodigious natural power is that he can use a more controlled approach at the plate while still mashing.

You so often see guys with power or huge heaters constantly going full blast out of infatuation with their natural talent. But these two guys us their talent in restrained, but effective way.


That's an interesting observation about them. I've picked that up with Verlander but I've never thought about Cabrera like that. I'll keep an eye out for that next time I see him play.
   21. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4418127)
Title's below standard even for BBTF: why quotation marks around what doesn't seem to be a quote?
   22. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4418128)
I think you can call it a skill, but it's a question of where his true talent level is. It's very unlikely he's just average, but it's also not super likely that he's a .372 BABIP guy. But I'm definitely not qualified to figure out where he probably falls.
   23. Austin Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4418139)
For a minute I thought you were talking about Austin Kearns, because all Austins look the same to me.

I can assure you that I do not look like Austin Kearns, Austin Jackson, or Austin Romine.
   24. Ron J2 Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4418143)
#17 Walter Johnson apparently did somewhat the same thing as what you're talking about. I've described him as generally Bob Tewksbury (who was a perfectly cromulent pitcher) who could at will and without warning become Goose Gossage.
   25. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4418166)
Framing all criticism of Obama as racist is disgusting.
   26. bookbook Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4418181)
Yeah. Rants. That is true. (Though this qualifies more as misinformed idiocy than anything as dignified as "criticism.")
   27. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:49 PM (#4418188)
I'm pretty sure I don't care anymore about what Jonathan Papelbon thinks about gun control than I do what Barack Obama thinks about closer by committee.

And really folks, if we're going to post an article it seems like actually posting the correct title is a reasonable expectation.
   28. Nasty Nate Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4418191)
Title's below standard even for BBTF: why quotation marks around what doesn't seem to be a quote?


Yeah the headline and the quote within are totally fabricated by whoever submitted this article. weak sauce
   29. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4418199)
“Obama Gonna Take Our Guns Away, Man”

I would say he have his children taken away, but since he named his son Gunner, the government is already on that apparently.
   30. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4418200)
the Astros might not be as bad as we think they are?

*rolls eyes*
   31. Dale Sams Posted: April 18, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4418203)
"Next, we go to Sergio Romo for his comment on Kurdistan rice tariffs!"
   32. Nasty Nate Posted: April 18, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4418224)
Are both of Papelbon's brothers now out of baseball?
   33. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 18, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4418257)
this is garbage posting this topic outside of the politics thread

boooooooooooooo


Boooooooooooo
   34. Bruce Markusen Posted: April 18, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4418286)
The issue of guns aside, Papelbon is really not a bright guy. Earlier this year, he and the Phillies are one out away from a blowout victory over the Mets and yet he's complaining about the rain, asking the umpire to stop the game. I've never seen a player in such a position make that kind of argument.

Did he really want to have the umpire stop play, sit out a long rain delay, and then have some other pitcher come out and finish the game?
   35. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: April 18, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4418309)
He also compared Philadelphia to Paris, even though he had never been to Paris and had only seen it in the movies. It made me wonder what the hell movies about Paris Jonathan Papelbon has even seen, and I think of him deconstructing The 400 Blows, comparing the scene where the protagonist finds his mother making out with a man not his father, to his own experience in the Boston clubhouse where more senior players were eating friend chicken.
   36. Dale Sams Posted: April 18, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4418319)
Since this is a random baseball thread now, harking back to one of the last 'not enough African-Americans in baseball threads':

"Hip-hop is only just now finding its way into baseball"

'Just now'? Really? Have you SEEN the majority of walk-up songs today? I can't even bring myself to import them into MLB '13. I'll just pretend that Pedroia's is "Hobo Humpin Slobo Babe"
   37. DanG Posted: April 18, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4418330)
it’s just a little bit insane for me, man. I’m not sure how to take it.
Here's a pointer. Try to take it in the shoulder.
   38. Dale Sams Posted: April 18, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4418340)
Here's a pointer. Try to take it in the shoulder.


Didn't work for Greinke.
   39. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 18, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4418348)
Here's a pointer. Try to take it in the shoulder.


Wait until Obama forces you to get gay-married, then you'll wish taking it in the shoulder were a viable option.
   40. Joey B. Posted: April 18, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4418350)
Oh brother, we got another Viola wannabe here.
   41. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 18, 2013 at 05:03 PM (#4418369)
Was the original headline really "White pitcher . . ."? That's pretty shameful journalism, if so, since Papelbon's race isn't really relevant. Perhaps Politico belatedly agrees since the headline now reads "Phillies pitcher".
   42. Walt Davis Posted: April 18, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4418377)
It's very unlikely he's just average, but it's also not super likely that he's a .372 BABIP guy. But I'm definitely not qualified to figure out where he probably falls.

Even after 2000 PA, the 95% confidence interval on a rate is on the order of +/- 2% (20 points). I'm still a little surprised to see ZiPS project him below 350 though.

What's super cool, IMO, is that Jackson has been cutting down his K's while maintaining his ridiculously insane BABIP.

I'm not sure K-rate and BABIP are that closely related. K-rate and HR rate/ISO tend to be which brings in a connection to BA on-contact. I assume there's some connection -- hitting the ball harder IP should lead to more hits -- but BABIP also gets tied up in gb/fb and footspeed.

But that's one thing I hadn't noticed about him before -- he actually has a quite low gb/fb rate. He's .85 career and around .7 last year and this. BABIP for fast guys is often "inflated" by infield singles but his profile is actually more like Votto (pronounced VAH-toe according to b-r's new pronunciation guide!). Interesting player.

The "downside" so far this year is that the ISO is back down in the 120s and the HR/FB rate is quite low (3%) and his current awesomeness is relying heavily on a 29% LD rate so he's due for some regression on that (this just in, he's unlikely to hit 370 for the year).

And did he K a bunch yesterday, cuz his K-rate is now up to 12.2% (fangraphs was citing one in the 7s).

Votto's 2013 line: 277/521/404 -- 22 walks (3 intentional) in 71 PA -- that's higher than Dunn's career strikeout rate! (Got a ways to go to catch Barry 2004 thought)
   43. Sonic Youk Posted: April 18, 2013 at 05:21 PM (#4418386)
Was the original headline really "White pitcher . . ."? That's pretty shameful journalism, if so, since Papelbon's race isn't really relevant. Perhaps Politico belatedly agrees since the headline now reads "Phillies pitcher".
the original headline was "Phillies pitcher Jonathan Papelbon: Obama out for guns." I'm guessing it was changed due to most primates' unfamiliarity with Papelbons ethnicity and position.
   44. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 18, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4418474)
Was the original headline really "White pitcher . . ."?

To be fair, Jonathan Papelbon is a longtime supporter of the Tsar.
   45. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: April 18, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4418489)
Why the #### does it matter what his race is?
   46. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: April 18, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4418553)
It's actually referring to Betty White's pitcher, which is full of Jack and Coke.
   47. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 18, 2013 at 09:39 PM (#4418659)
How does the authorization process for posts work, anyways?
   48. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 18, 2013 at 09:51 PM (#4418677)
It's actually referring to Betty White's pitcher, which is full of Jack and Coke.

God love her, I hope it really is.
   49. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 18, 2013 at 09:55 PM (#4418687)
If I somehow reach my 90s, I'm going to start living incredibly badly. Horrible nutrition, boozing it up. Every day at that point is gravy.
   50. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: April 18, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4418698)
Framing all criticism of Obama as racist is disgusting.


I think people are just giving Papelbon the benefit of the doubt that he can't be this big an imbecile. He hates having a black president but he's not DUMB. "Obama gonna take our guns away, man."
   51. greenback calls it soccer Posted: April 18, 2013 at 10:27 PM (#4418721)
Charlie Manuel just used Cliff Lee as a pinch runner. I don't believe I have ever seen a guy with a $120 milllion contract used that way before.
   52. cardsfanboy Posted: April 18, 2013 at 10:29 PM (#4418724)
Framing all criticism of Obama as racist is disgusting.


Agreed.. I stop listening to anyone that pulls the racism card when talking politics. It's as silly as the socialist card. It's the goodwin (for me) law of politcal discussion. If you can't be reasonable and understand nuances, then there is no reason to talk with you.

If I somehow reach my 90s, I'm going to start living incredibly badly. Horrible nutrition, boozing it up. Every day at that point is gravy.


I agree. If by 90's you mean 40's, I'm already there (been telling people for years that since no male in my family lives past 46, might as well enjoy my short journey ...mind you I fully know the logic flaw in that point of view)
   53. cardsfanboy Posted: April 18, 2013 at 10:30 PM (#4418726)
Charlie Manuel just used Cliff Lee as a pinch runner. I don't believe I have ever seen a guy with a $120 milllion contract used that way before.


Charlie Manuel used Papelbon exactly correctly today, he gets a pass from me for a full two weeks on anything he does.
   54. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4418824)
Bad, bad headline choice - whether politico (originally) or ecwcat.

I stop listening to anyone that pulls the racism card when talking politics. It's as silly as the socialist card. It's the goodwin (for me) law of politcal discussion. If you can't be reasonable and understand nuances, then there is no reason to talk with you.

That suggests that racism is never on the table as a point of discussion... It's still a significant issue (though often on an institutional level, rather than overt and intended).
   55. cardsfanboy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:20 AM (#4418829)
That suggests that racism is never on the table as a point of discussion... It's still a significant issue (though often on an institutional level, rather than overt and intended).


Agree, but if it pops up as this is the reason that so-and-so is saying this, before any real discussion has taken place, then it's time to stop listening. I'm a liberal and have tons of liberal friends(and as a former Marine, I also have a ton of hard core conservative friends) so I'll see some people say one thing that is about Obama, and my liberal friends oftentimes jump to the race card. Without knowing anything about the person they are talking to.

Too many people have said "white people voted for Romney because of race"...yet you can't say the opposite without appearing to be racist. Racism is a serious charge in my opinion, and you should err on the side of assuming most people are inherently good people. I'm perfectly capable of having a discussion about racist policies(say voter id laws, death penalty or mandatory drug sentencing) with people defending the policies without assuming they are racist or accusing them of being racist. Just like I expect my conservative friends to carry on conversations with regards to the affordable health care act, social security etc without referring it to socialism or with me accusing them of being feudalists when they wish to wipe out Unions.
   56. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:29 AM (#4418836)
Agreed.
   57. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 19, 2013 at 01:07 AM (#4418860)
this is garbage posting this topic outside of the politics thread

Well, it's typical Repoz.

"Hip-hop is only just now finding its way into baseball"


I'm having a hard time seeing the world as worse off if hip-hop had died in a corner somewhere after the brilliant Public Enemy peaked with their 3rd album.
   58. RollingWave Posted: April 19, 2013 at 01:18 AM (#4418865)
I'm pretty sure I don't care anymore about what Jonathan Papelbon thinks about gun control than I do what Barack Obama thinks about closer by committee.


Well his march madness bracket got seem to have a lot of people caring, granted that the recent video of him playing Basketball had him look almost as bad as I am at it.

   59. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 01:24 AM (#4418869)
57: that opinion, sir, is wack.
   60. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:10 AM (#4418914)
this is garbage posting this topic outside of the politics thread

Well, it's typical Repoz.

You know, you can see who posted a topic, right?

I'm having a hard time seeing the world as worse off if hip-hop had died in a corner somewhere after the brilliant Public Enemy peaked with their 3rd album.

IOW: 'Music peaked at the exact moment, when I was most vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated, due to hormonal imbalances.'
   61. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:50 AM (#4418953)
@60: please try not to bore us with the same old trivial nonsense that implies art has no objective qualities.
   62. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:24 AM (#4418996)
@60: please try not to bore us with the same old trivial nonsense that implies art has no objective qualities.

Objectively, Hip Hop over the last 20 years has been orders of magnitudes better, than it was in 1990. Only an incredibly biased person would claim otherwise.
   63. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 05:35 AM (#4418997)
'Music peaked at the exact moment, when I was most vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated, due to hormonal imbalances.'


Wait, you mean the Verve Pipe isn't good? ####...
   64. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 19, 2013 at 06:21 AM (#4419004)
Objectively, Hip Hop over the last 20 years has been orders of magnitudes better, than it was in 1990. Only an incredibly biased person would claim otherwise.

What nonsense. As though rock didn't have a peak, as well. Or that world music isn't still getting more and more interesting as new fusions continue to be discovered. Hip Hop is an extremely limited form. Small wonder it was so quickly exhausted. The same went for the sonnet in Italian. The rhymes were too easy. As a vital form the sonnet lasted much longer in English largely because of the degree of difficulty.

edit: "Music peaked at the exact moment,"

Uh-huh. That you're conflating hiphop with [all] music says it all.
   65. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 07:37 AM (#4419026)
I now wish there was an option for 'block music opinions only'. :)
I go completely the other way - schemes and phrasing have grown vastly more complicated over time (and people are also more willing to consciously forego them). I've got my share of politically conscious rap from back in the day ... and I never listen to it, it seems clunky now.
   66. Walt Davis Posted: April 19, 2013 at 07:44 AM (#4419029)
Sheeeeyyyittt ... it's been downhill since the Last Poets.
   67. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:08 AM (#4419041)
Walt, that's because niggers are scared of revolution
   68. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:25 AM (#4419050)
Deleted - thinking of another band
   69. pikepredator Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:46 AM (#4419064)
OK everybody in this section: let's stand up on three. 1! 2! 3! STAND UP!! C'mon get outta your seats and let's get this rolling on 3 . . . 1!! 2!! 3!! Oh C'MON PEOPLE y'all are no fun at all. . . ONE TWO THREEEEEEEEE!!!!!
   70. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:00 AM (#4419073)
Hip hop peaked when Too $hort found a way to rhyme bitch with bitch.
   71. ASmitty Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:02 AM (#4419074)
Today's best Hip-Hop is much, much better than yesterday's best Hip-Hop.

Today's typical Hip-Hop is much, much worse than yesterday's typical Hip-Hop.

Given time, most musical styles evolve and improve; and given popularity, most musical styles devolve. Hip-Hop is doing both right now.
   72. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: April 19, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4419146)
If I somehow reach my 90s, I'm going to start living incredibly baldly.


Fixed.

'Music peaked at the exact moment, when I was most vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated, due to hormonal imbalances.'


Actually, all forms of art peaked just before Jack Carter started paying attention. Everything has totally sucked ever since.

   73. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4419162)
Hip Hop is an extremely limited form


Well, this is definitely the guy you should listen to about when a form peaked: the guy who condescends to the form.

By and large, people who say they like hip hop but don't acknowledge that 1992-1996 was an astonishing hip-hop renaissance are the most tedious people in the world.
   74. JuanGone..except1game Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:41 AM (#4419216)
By and large, people who say they like hip hop but don't acknowledge that 1992-1996 was an astonishing hip-hop renaissance are the most tedious people in the world.


This isn't even in dispute. If you can't appreciate early 90's Tribe Called Quest, Nas, Notorious BIG, Pharcyde, Common or Wu-Tang then you might just lead with the fact that you don't like that "hippity-hop" music. And only half of those acts could even be considered close to any stereotype of "gangsta rap".
   75. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4419240)
If you can't appreciate early 90's Tribe Called Quest, Nas, Notorious BIG, Pharcyde, Common or Wu-Tang then you might just lead with the fact that you don't like that "hippity-hop" music.

Agreed - if you're aged enough. I can see how a 15 year old might not like that old stuff.
   76. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4419287)
It's been all downhill since Slick Rick, baby!
   77. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 11:47 AM (#4419314)
Today's best Hip-Hop is much, much better than yesterday's best Hip-Hop.

Today's typical Hip-Hop is much, much worse than yesterday's typical Hip-Hop.

Given time, most musical styles evolve and improve; and given popularity, most musical styles devolve. Hip-Hop is doing both right now.


I think the 1st statement is questionable but the 2nd is undoubtedly true. Rick Ross or Lil Wayne (here as "typical hip hop") can't hold a candle to ATCQ or even Dr. Dre.

As for the best hip hop, it's hard for me to say with any certainty if Kendrick Lamar is "better" (defined usually in hip hop as the trio of production, flow, lyrics) than say Biggie or KRS-One

There is a lot of great underground hip hop out there, that's for sure.
   78. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4419340)
I think the 1st statement is questionable but the 2nd is undoubtedly true. Rick Ross or Lil Wayne (here as "typical hip hop") can't hold a candle to ATCQ or even Dr. Dre.

The same Dr. Dre whose verse's sounding good are entirely a testament to his ghostwriter?
   79. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4419346)
I used to like Rick Ross when he was in the WWF. I wonder what happened to his manager Kim Chee?
   80. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4419361)
The same Dr. Dre whose verse's sounding good are entirely a testament to his ghostwriter


Eh, dre can't write or flow but he can produce, and is arguably, along with dilla, the most influential producer in hip hop post 1990.

The nwa and early snoop collabs are as way better than the top 40 hip hop of 2013 with Drake and Lil Wayne IMO.
   81. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4419364)
This is hip-hop.
   82. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4419368)
Can't we go back to talking about politics? :D
   83. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4419370)
Yeah, although it's kind of impressive that people managed to turn a thread about guns into something even less interesting.
   84. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4419378)
[80] Thought you meant as rappers, not as Hip Hop figures.
   85. Bug Selig Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4419385)
It's as silly as the socialist card.


What word do you prefer when discussing an objectively socialist policy? Or do you mean in the sense of "He's a..."

I could easily see someone being more comfortable with "That's racist/socialist" than "He's a racist/socialist" because the latter pretty much just ends the discussion. The former, though, I think has to be considered in play.

EDIT - Or, pretty much what you said in #55...
   86. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4419388)
I'll just pretend that Pedroia's is "Hobo Humpin Slobo Babe"

"Dammit...shut up about my woman, Beavis."
   87. Dale Sams Posted: April 19, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4419389)
Yeah, although it's kind of impressive that people managed to turn a thread about guns into something even less interesting.


All I know is that, going by walk-up songs, baseball players have the worst taste in music among all athletes.
   88. Bug Selig Posted: April 19, 2013 at 01:02 PM (#4419405)
I'm perfectly capable of having a discussion about racist policies(say voter id laws, death penalty or mandatory drug sentencing) with people defending the policies without assuming they are racist or accusing them of being racist.


Death penalty - check.

Mandatory drug sentencing, check.

But - It blows my mind every time someone tries to couch the idea that each person should be limited to one vote (and be, you know, alive to cast it) as racist. In a world where Chicago and Detroit exist, blatant stealing of elections has to be a bigger concern than the fact that getting a State ID is a little bit of a pain in the butt, doesn't it?
   89. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4419477)
In a world where Chicago and Detroit exist, blatant stealing of elections has to be a bigger concern than the fact that getting a State ID is a little bit of a pain in the butt, doesn't it?


Having spent a good amount of time (too much really) working electoral politics in a big city (NYC) I can tell you for a fact that voter fraud is almost impossible to pull off on a large scale unless...wait for it -- you can manipulate the electronic voting machines, which to my knowledge, has been a concern among progressives for awhile.

The board of elections (at least in NYC) is many things, many of them concerning, but one thing they are pretty good at is openly counting votes. This isn't Tammany Hall or Mob Chicago where the levers of power are opague. At the end of the night each machine gives you the total number of votes cast and then the individual ballots are tallied about up by the BOE workers, usually under the very close supervision of the lawyers from every interested party.

It's a cumbersome, some would say antiquated process, but it works pretty damn well. Now, the new electronic machines, with no paper trail, are host to a whole 'nother set of problems, which I touched on above.
   90. cardsfanboy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4419528)
But - It blows my mind every time someone tries to couch the idea that each person should be limited to one vote (and be, you know, alive to cast it) as racist. In a world where Chicago and Detroit exist, blatant stealing of elections has to be a bigger concern than the fact that getting a State ID is a little bit of a pain in the butt, doesn't it?


It's more than a little pain in the butt for some people, especially older people, poor people etc.. Some people's entire existence is in their home neighborhoods and they rarely venture out from there. If you come up with one of these voter ID laws, you need to follow what one state(Arkansas?) did and give it a two+ year window to allow people to comply with it.

Ultimately I don't see a problem with it, if you 1. don't require a payment for the id 2. don't require a special birth certificate that requires a payment to acquire 3. Give sufficient notice and time for people to get it...and 6 months is not sufficient amount of time. We want to encourage people to vote, not make it more difficult than it has to be.


   91. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4419530)
madvillain: are you suggesting that atcq represents typical hip-hop and krs-one the best? 'cause that would be crazy talk. my opinions there aside...

questions:
are we talking hip hop (in general) or rap specifically? i take the former to include stuff like modern r&b...

when we talk about what was popular in the past, we bias it in favor of what stood the test of time. so, we talk about atcq (which was popular and whose sound, particularly on low end, held up a little better than some other artists) and not the top sellers ... like mc hammer. vanilla ice. nwa. (talking ~1990 here)
in terms of the now, it's a little tricky here in that the market for albums in general has flattened at the same time that rap has gotten slightly less popular and pop culture has fractured more generally... accordingly, there's less consensus on what a "typical" rapper is.
   92. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4419533)
We want to encourage people to vote, not make it more difficult than it has to be.


Gerrymandering is 10x the problem voter id is and yet it gets not even 1/10th the coverage or attention.
   93. cardsfanboy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4419543)
Gerrymandering is 10x the problem voter id is and yet it gets not even 1/10th the coverage or attention.


Because both sides like it. There are a lot of things that most normal people would consider problems, that both political parties don't support so they'll never happen. Just like comprehensive campaign reform etc... they might occasionally say something about it, but neither side is ever really going to do anything about it.
   94. zenbitz Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4419582)
Because both sides like it


Correction. 100 times the problem. 10x the magnitude, but squared because of the cooperative effect of no one with power opposing it.

It is actually statistically impossible to influence an election on the larger side of County Dog Catcher by a single person (or few people) fraudulently voting. The true margin of error dwarfs the shift you can make once you get to about 10 or 20K votes in a binary election*


* Note: all statistics were approximated, since if I did the work in excel no one would be any more likely to believe me and it would take 45 minutes.
   95. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4419612)
There are a lot of things that most normal people would consider problems, that both political parties don't support so they'll never happen. Just like comprehensive campaign reform etc... they might occasionally say something about it, but neither side is ever really going to do anything about it.

And gun law reform, as so vividly demonstrated this week.
   96. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4419620)
madvillain: are you suggesting that atcq represents typical hip-hop and krs-one the best? 'cause that would be crazy talk. my opinions there aside...


Ha, I'd agree with that. Nah, just saying that in the 90's you had Tribe, now we have Kendrick (just two best of the best examples) and the quality of both is very high, high enough to were any difference between the two is minimal compared to how much better they are than "mainstream rap". KRS-One example was just a throwaway really. I was never a huge fan of his but I know a lot of people enjoy his Boogie Down Productions stuff and look at him as an example of pre-90's ATCQ style hip hop at a high level.

Larry Mizel Jr who hosts KEXP's (legendary Seattle/NYC based radio station) only hip hop show contends that "rap is hip hop and hip hop is rap" and that you can use them interchangeably. I think that's true, but I would say that not all hip hop is rap, although all rap is hip hop. In the venn diagram all of rap would be in hip hop, but then you'd have areas of hip hop (beats or more live instrumental jazz influenced stuff like Flying Lotus or Dabrye) that I wouldn't consider rap.

Did you watch the Wackness? I was living in NYC at the time it came out and it was very fun. If I wasn't familiar with the landscapes of the city it might have taken some of the enjoyment away but I think it's still a must watch for any hip hop fan. As is the documentary on ATCQ.

The people hating on hip hop in this thread are fun.
   97. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4419621)

And gun law reform, as so vividly demonstrated this week.


I don't know if that's true. The polls I've seen have shown that at best there is a pretty solid split in terms of how many people want more/same/less gun control. Personally I want more but a very meaningful percentage of people in this country don't.
   98. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: April 19, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4419623)
Wait, you mean the Verve Pipe isn't good? ####...


Everyone makes mistakes. You were only a freshman.
   99. Steve Treder Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4419633)
The polls I've seen have shown that at best there is a pretty solid split in terms of how many people want more/same/less gun control.

Yeah, but if you break it down into particular elements the picture changes. There's a pretty strong multiple-poll consensus that somewhere close to 90% of the public favors a stronger federal background check.
   100. cardsfanboy Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4419637)
I don't know if that's true. The polls I've seen have shown that at best there is a pretty solid split in terms of how many people want more/same/less gun control. Personally I want more but a very meaningful percentage of people in this country don't.


That is what I was thinking. With it so split in the country, it's not in the politicians best career interest to actually do anything. Obviously some are very much one way or another based upon their constituents, but with so many people in the middle, and the fact that neither side has shown any ability to understand nuance on the debate, it's just best (for the politicians) to do nothing.
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