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Thursday, April 18, 2013

White Pitcher: “Obama Gonna Take Our Guns Away, Man”

“Today’s day and age has gotten so crazy. Shoot man, Obama wants to take our guns from us and everything. You got all this stuff going on; it’s just a little bit insane for me, man. I’m not sure how to take it.”

 

ecwcat Posted: April 18, 2013 at 12:29 PM | 133 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   101. Bug Selig Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4419674)
Having spent a good amount of time (too much really) working electoral politics in a big city (NYC) I can tell you for a fact that voter fraud is almost impossible to pull off on a large scale unless...wait for it -- you can manipulate the electronic voting machines, which to my knowledge, has been a concern among progressives for awhile.


I think you're talking about the manipulation of votes after they've been cast. I was referring to the practice of Bob Jones voting as himself, Bob Jr., little George, cousin Ed, and dead Grandpa Pete.

In my mind, allowing someone to vote without proving who they are effectively takes away everyone's vote. Might as well just play king of the hill at that point.
   102. Bug Selig Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4419676)
Ultimately I don't see a problem with it, if you 1. don't require a payment for the id 2. don't require a special birth certificate that requires a payment to acquire 3. Give sufficient notice and time for people to get it...and 6 months is not sufficient amount of time. We want to encourage people to vote, not make it more difficult than it has to be.


No quarrel with any of that.
   103. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4419702)
The polls I've seen have shown that at best there is a pretty solid split in terms of how many people want more/same/less gun control.

The problem with that is that half the people who are against "more gun control" think that the provisions of the recently proposed bills are already in the existing laws. Don't let anyone kid themselves into thinking the NRA doesn't invest its money wisely.
   104. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: April 19, 2013 at 08:34 PM (#4419929)
Judging by my Facebook page about half the people think that not having slightly more gun control is tantamount to being in favor of child massacres and the other half of people think that giving the "pro-gun control" people an inch is tantamount to giving them a mile because no matter what they say what they really want is for all guns to be outlawed like in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. I think the whole discussion is irrelevant until Pro gun control people can answer what penalty should a person who disobeys new laws on principle face, and what good would come of incremental changes. IOW if you disobey the law then are your guns forcibly taken if it means the FBI would have to kill you to get them? If not, what's the point?

   105. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4420075)
I think you're talking about the manipulation of votes after they've been cast. I was referring to the practice of Bob Jones voting as himself, Bob Jr., little George, cousin Ed, and dead Grandpa Pete.


This is impossible on a large scale, which is why no serious political operative even considers it. The math doesn't work.

It's just not logistically possible on any sort of scale large enough to matter. Small elections get rigged on occasion, but you're talking about when 10 votes in a school district or podunk county commish seat make a real difference. Congressional districts have hundreds of thousands of voters. Even if you get 1000 people to somehow vote 10 times each as various registered alias in the district, you're talking about 2-3% swing at most.

And how as master manipulator would you guarantee these 1000 people actual vote 10 times that day ? I've organized canvass crews that paid $150 bucks on election days to do easier work, only about 50% of those people actually worked more than an hour or two at it.

It's impossible. You want to rig an non-local election in 2013 you manipulate the software or, even subtler, who even appears on the ballot.
   106. madvillain Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4420079)
Judging by my Facebook page about half the people think that not having slightly more gun control is tantamount to being in favor of child massacres and the other half of people think that giving the "pro-gun control" people an inch is tantamount to giving them a mile because no matter what they say what they really want is for all guns to be outlawed like in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany.


The internet is to political polarizaiton what air is to fire, to borrow a Madisonian phrase.
   107. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4420104)
So let's say, unlike any other musical form, hiphop is inexhaustible, and that the too easy rhyme schemes mean that unlike the Italian sonnet, the form will go on and on into a rainbow-colored, infinite future. What's one track I should listen to that demonstrates how an artist can stretch language and rhythm into new and fascinating shapes?
   108. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 19, 2013 at 10:47 PM (#4420112)
Gangham Style, no doubt.
   109. Dale Sams Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:53 AM (#4420184)
I dunno. Everytime I turn the channel to the FUSE station with an open mind, an incredibly indefensibly stupid song like "I like a girl with a big ass booty" will be playing.
   110. bigglou115 Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:54 AM (#4420207)
The problem with that is that half the people who are against "more gun control" think that the provisions of the recently proposed bills are already in the existing laws. Don't let anyone kid themselves into thinking the NRA doesn't invest its money wisely.


I think a ton of it has to do with how the issue is framed by the media. It seems every time the issue comes up theres something silly like a person saying, "why should we have these weapons just so a redneck can hunt." That's going to put a huge number of people on the defensive right away. The fact is, most guns that people own wouldn't be affected in a meaningful way, and as much as I like my guns I can't see any possible reason why someone would think their right to own an AR-15 is constitutionally protected.

On the other side of the coin, the media often shows gun owners as caricatures polishing their assault rifles while wearing camo and spitting tobacco (ironically, I'm both wearing camo and chewing at this moment). If that was the only image of gun owning society I ever saw then I'd be scared as all get out myself.

There's also some regional elements to it as well. The two sides tend to live pretty segregated lives. If your a city person you only ever tend to see criminals and cops with guns. If you live in a rural environment, everybody you know has a gun and the ones who tell you that you shouldn't have one are usually the same people who will lecture you on why you should go gluten free and that meat is murder. Its hard for either side to get a clear picture of what the other side really wants, because they don't know anything about the other side.
   111. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:08 AM (#4420249)
If you live in a rural environment, everybody you know has a gun and the ones who tell you that you shouldn't have one are usually the same people who will lecture you on why you should go gluten free and that meat is murder.


I've never heard anyone tell me either of those things, and I lived in Mississippi and Tennessee for 11 years. But hey, hippies, amirite?
   112. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: April 20, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4420313)
   113. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 20, 2013 at 01:03 PM (#4420330)
The problem with that is that half the people who are against "more gun control" think that the provisions of the recently proposed bills are already in the existing laws. Don't let anyone kid themselves into thinking the NRA doesn't invest its money wisely.

I think a ton of it has to do with how the issue is framed by the media. It seems every time the issue comes up theres something silly like a person saying, "why should we have these weapons just so a redneck can hunt." That's going to put a huge number of people on the defensive right away.


And understandably so, but I do think the problem is still more of ignorance of what the existing laws actually contain, or rather what they don't contain. Which kind of answers

The fact is, most guns that people own wouldn't be affected in a meaningful way, and as much as I like my guns I can't see any possible reason why someone would think their right to own an AR-15 is constitutionally protected.

your followup point.

On the other side of the coin, the media often shows gun owners as caricatures polishing their assault rifles while wearing camo and spitting tobacco (ironically, I'm both wearing camo and chewing at this moment). If that was the only image of gun owning society I ever saw then I'd be scared as all get out myself.

I don't think that's so much "the media" as a whole, as it is a relatively small group of commentators, reinforced by a correspondingly small group of unrepresentative gun fetishists who then seize upon those commentators' caricatures to perpetuate the vicious rhetorical circle.

There's also some regional elements to it as well. The two sides tend to live pretty segregated lives. If your a city person you only ever tend to see criminals and cops with guns. If you live in a rural environment, everybody you know has a gun and the ones who tell you that you shouldn't have one are usually the same people who will lecture you on why you should go gluten free and that meat is murder.

Finding reliable stats on gun ownership isn't easy, but at least one survey estimates that the percentage of households in the South and Mountain West is down to about 40%. Of course that would include Denver, Atlanta, etc., so the rural areas would likely be much higher. but I have to wonder if even 10% of those non-gun owners would even be able to tell you WTF "gluten-free" even means, let alone be preaching against it.

Its hard for either side to get a clear picture of what the other side really wants, because they don't know anything about the other side.

I'd agree, but I think that's in great part due to the success of the NRA and its allies in misrepresenting the views of gun control advocates, and suggesting that nearly every form of gun control is little more than part of a long range plan of eventual confiscation and total citizen disarmament.
   114. cardsfanboy Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4420396)
I think a ton of it has to do with how the issue is framed by the media. It seems every time the issue comes up theres something silly like a person saying, "why should we have these weapons just so a redneck can hunt." That's going to put a huge number of people on the defensive right away. The fact is, most guns that people own wouldn't be affected in a meaningful way, and as much as I like my guns I can't see any possible reason why someone would think their right to own an AR-15 is constitutionally protected.


The problem is that informed gun owners rightfully don't see much difference between an AR-15 and any other rifle. They are scarier looking, and that is about it. It's one of the few times that the conservatives are actually more informed on the issue than the liberals, yet instead of taking their strong arguments(which is basically why the AR-15 and not the Remington 7400? or any other rifle?) the large majority of them go with the simplistic argument '2nd amendment = hitler' etc. Anti-gun arguments(those in which we are talking about outlawing a particular weapon...not talking about registration) should have to prove their case, not make the pro-gun prove theirs first...and to be honest, I've yet to see a strong or even a weak argument for banning a particular rifle, that was presented in an informed manner. All assault weapons are already outlawed(assault weapons mean the ability to switch over to fully auto fire or even a 3 round burst) so when people are going after AR-15, they are going after a weapon because of it's look, not because of it's function.
   115. cardsfanboy Posted: April 20, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4420400)
There's also some regional elements to it as well. The two sides tend to live pretty segregated lives. If your a city person you only ever tend to see criminals and cops with guns. If you live in a rural environment, everybody you know has a gun and the ones who tell you that you shouldn't have one are usually the same people who will lecture you on why you should go gluten free and that meat is murder. Its hard for either side to get a clear picture of what the other side really wants, because they don't know anything about the other side.


In Missouri, I realized the different attitudes when they had a state wide vote on whether to allow concealed weapons. The two cities(Kansas and St Louis) overwhelmingly voted No, while the rest of the state overwhelmingly voted Yes.... it failed to pass, and then of course the state legislature went ahead and enacted a conceal carry law anyway. (even to the point that a year or so later, after St Louis refused to issue any licenses, they forced the city to comply.)
   116. bigglou115 Posted: April 20, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4420435)
I've never heard anyone tell me either of those things, and I lived in Mississippi and Tennessee for 11 years. But hey, hippies, amirite?


The problem is that informed gun owners rightfully don't see much difference between an AR-15 and any other rifle. They are scarier looking, and that is about it. It's one of the few times that the conservatives are actually more informed on the issue than the liberals, yet instead of taking their strong arguments(which is basically why the AR-15 and not the Remington 7400? or any other rifle?) the large majority of them go with the simplistic argument '2nd amendment = hitler' etc. Anti-gun arguments(those in which we are talking about outlawing a particular weapon...not talking about registration) should have to prove their case, not make the pro-gun prove theirs first...and to be honest, I've yet to see a strong or even a weak argument for banning a particular rifle, that was presented in an informed manner. All assault weapons are already outlawed(assault weapons mean the ability to switch over to fully auto fire or even a 3 round burst) so when people are going after AR-15, they are going after a weapon because of it's look, not because of it's function.


Well, first off, the gluten free thing and the vegetarian thing were just poorly conceived examples, my point was that they were the same type of people likely to take an abrasive stance, or else you wouldn't know they weren't on the pro-gun side.

As to the AR-15 thing. I'm a shotgun guy. Rifles aren't my thing, except for my 10 year old Ruger 7 mag which does its job very effectively come deer season. So I'll concede to your knowledge there.

Finding reliable stats on gun ownership isn't easy, but at least one survey estimates that the percentage of households in the South and Mountain West is down to about 40%. Of course that would include Denver, Atlanta, etc., so the rural areas would likely be much higher. but I have to wonder if even 10% of those non-gun owners would even be able to tell you WTF "gluten-free" even means, let alone be preaching against it.


And again, I chose my example poorly. I just meant that the people who are going to tell you they're pro gun control, in an area where they're the minority, aren't going to come across as reasonable when they do so. More likely they're going to act like they're morally superior and your ownership of a gun is a travesty. I don't have a problem if you think your morally superior, just don't have a problem with me ignoring you when you tell me so. (Of course my "you" there is metaphorical and not directed at you).
   117. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4420532)
I'd agree, but I think that's in great part due to the success of the NRA and its allies in misrepresenting the views of gun control advocates, and suggesting that nearly every form of gun control is little more than part of a long range plan of eventual confiscation and total citizen disarmament.

Not sure there is all that much misrepresentation. Many gun control advocates are for as much gun control as they can get the votes to pass. They would impose the near total bans found in NYC, Chicago & pre-Heller DC in other jurisdictions if they could, but have to settle for "half-measures" because of limited support - but those half-measures are never the final goal.
   118. cardsfanboy Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4420552)
Not sure there is all that much misrepresentation. Manysome small minority gun control advocates are for as much gun control as they can get the votes to pass. They would impose the near total bans found in NYC, Chicago & pre-Heller DC in other jurisdictions if they could, but have to settle for "half-measures" because of limited support - but those half-measures are never the final goal.


There fixed that to be more accurate. Agree with the rest about the half measure approach. Mind you handgun bans or restrictions make much more sense than going after AR(Armalite--not assault rifle)-15's.. But because handgun restrictions would be opposed much more strongly than the scary looking rifle, that they go after the scary to make it easier to go after the ones they should be going after.

Handguns is much more the problem than perceived assault rifles etc.
   119. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4420581)
I'd agree, but I think that's in great part due to the success of the NRA and its allies in misrepresenting the views of gun control advocates, and suggesting that nearly every form of gun control is little more than part of a long range plan of eventual confiscation and total citizen disarmament.

Not sure there is all that much misrepresentation.


Then how would you explain the disconnect between what large numbers of people think is already covered by existing gun laws and what actually isn't covered by them? Someone's sure as hell is responsible for that widespread lack of knowledge, and there's one big lobbying group and one big industry that have a common major interest in perpetuating this level of ignorance.
   120. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4420587)
Andy, the average American probably doesn't know the difference between the deficit and the debt. You're giving pro-Second Amendment types way too much credit if you think they're responsible for widespread misunderstandings related to gun laws.
   121. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 20, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4420588)
Then how would you explain the disconnect between what large numbers of people think is already covered by existing gun laws and what actually isn't covered by them?

There is probably more of a disconnect between what large numbers of gun control advocates believe isn't covered by existing gun laws and what is already covered. How often have we heard politicians call for a ban on automatic weapons, even though they have been generally prohibited since the1930s? How often is it argued that new laws are needed when actions in question already violate existing laws?
   122. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4420589)
gun owner but here baseball fan first and i really, really, really hate that this thread exists. this should be in the political thread and i am really disappointed it has not been shut down

and booooo to the person who posted it. boo i say

just looking to raise hackles

boooooo
   123. cardsfanboy Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4420590)
Then how would you explain the disconnect between what large numbers of people think is already covered by existing gun laws and what actually isn't covered by them? Someone's sure as hell is responsible for that widespread lack of knowledge, and there's one big lobbying group and one big industry that have a common major interest in perpetuating this level of ignorance.


What do you think people think is covered by existing gun laws, versus what is actually covered by existing gun laws?

I'm pretty sure that most people know that not all gun(over 40%?) sales include a background check. That is about the only thing I have found that some people think is happening that isn't.

I do think that the gun lobby absolutely loves it when these laws enter the public consciousness, as gun sales go through the roof.

Andy, the average American probably doesn't know the difference between the deficit and the debt


It was sad when John Stewart got beat like a rented mule by O'Reilly because Stewart didn't know the difference.

gun owner but here baseball fan first and i really, really, really hate that this thread exists. this should be in the political thread and i am really disappointed it has not been shut down


Sorry Harvey... I personally need to hear the legitimate arguments from both sides, since neither sides press actually presents a cognizant argument. I'm a fence sitter and wont to know what is the real honest arguments... and none of the fear mongering from either side.(and as I mentioned it before. It's probably the only political issue that the right actually might have a stronger factual knowledge on...at least in my experience)
   124. Shibal Posted: April 20, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4420597)
Many gun control advocates are for as much gun control as they can get the votes to pass. They would impose the near total bans found in NYC, Chicago & pre-Heller DC in other jurisdictions if they could, but have to settle for "half-measures" because of limited support - but those half-measures are never the final goal.


Indeed. They'll take half a loaf and get the rest later. Like I heard earlier, today's carve-out is tomorrow's loophole that "must be closed."

For the children, of course.
   125. BDC Posted: April 20, 2013 at 06:26 PM (#4420674)
Hey, I think we should follow harv's lead and move the gun-control stuff to OTP. I want to talk OT Hip Hop instead, especially this question of Jack's:

What's one track I should listen to that demonstrates how an artist can stretch language and rhythm into new and fascinating shapes?

I'd recommend Jay-Z's "99 Problems." It is a famous song; it is very misogynist in an almost offhand way, but its central narrative verse (the part that begins "The year is '94 and in my trunk is raw") is legitimately brilliant. I don't listen to much hip hop, don't like much of what I do listen to, but when it's good it's briefly amazing.

   126. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 20, 2013 at 07:03 PM (#4420707)
Listen to doomtree's "string theory" off of No Kings.
   127. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: April 20, 2013 at 08:44 PM (#4420783)
Thanks for the rec's, all. I will have a listen.
   128. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4420864)
madvillain: We agree on hip-hop v. rap - just looking to speak the same language. Also, I'm waaay behind on movies - plan on checking both of those out one day, though.

Recommendations: I'm less than ideal here for a bunch of reasons - my faves are kind of dated (not because the music has changed, but I'm nearly 40 and have less search time), they tend to be a lot bigger in the "underground" scene (read: played on white college stations) than pop radio, and are album artists in a singles medium. Caveats aside - here's a few likes:

Madvillain - All Caps
Picked because I like the video and because it shares a name with one of our posters, this project is a collab b/w Madlib (the beatmaker with an interesting solo career of his own, check out his first Quasimoto album (a frequent listen for me at work) among other things) and MF Doom (who might be my favorite rapper - has a real knack with words, especially outdated slang. His best seller is probably Danger Doom, which he did with Danger Mouse and a bunch of Adult Swim cartoon characters), latest is JJ Doom, which isn't quite up to his usual standards, but is still solid; here's the single.

Deltron 3030 - Positive Contact
Did you like the first Gorillaz album? This was made around the same time and features mostly the same contributors, albeit in wildly different concentrations. This concept album mixes battle raps, social commentary, and unneeded skits about Strange Brew and is the best thing Del tha Funkee Homosapien ever did - and possibly Dan's best work as well (for a good sampling of what he can do, try the compilation 'Wanna Buy A Monkey?'.

... more coming ...
   129. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4420876)
Outkast - Ghettomusick
Remember Hey Ya! (shake it like a polaroid picture), the summer song of 2003? This is them. Big Boi and Andre 3000 are super famous and super great - this song, while not their best, shows off some of their range. My favorite off that (double) album, off any of their albums (which are consistently strong), is Big Boi's The Rooster. (all three links are from the same album, sue me.)

Cannibal Ox - Iron Galaxy
2001's The Cold Vein is their only album (so far?), but it's stuck with me - in part because it was my first sustained listening to their beatmaker (and Def Jux label head) El-P. If you like Public Enemy, you might like his solo work.
   130. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4420883)
Lil Wayne - Sportscenter
The most erratic rapper alive, Lil Wayne used to do pretty good work. Here, he raps about sports while a sample from a tennis match serves (ahem) as the background. My favorite album of his is Da Drought 3 (a mixtape he released for free online - I think his mixtapes are generally better than his "regular" works) - here's My Daddy.

Lil Jon - Give It All You Got
What??? What??? Okaay!!!!
To the window, to the walls...
(Not a favorite of mine, but - when I'm in the mood for his ridiculousness - he can be a lot of fun.)
Note: I picked a selection from a free Adult Swim comp, ATL RMX - most of which is pretty good. It's not the only one they've put out - they do good work ... I spend a lot more time listening to their music than watching their shows.
   131. madvillain Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4420896)
I listened to quite a bit of the Gorillaz' first album in late HS then of course Deltron 3030 is one of the 30 best hip hop (or rap, ha) albums of all time.

I'm a big Little Brother and Phonte Phan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNVU40d7iWI

another side project of phonte with a UK producer called "Foreign Exchange" also is classic imo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy2RjQvBeL4&list=RD02BLfPMV7Vk4c

you know any good blogs for new hip hop? I have a few but can always use new stuff. KEXP.org streams their hip hop show live online every Sunday at 9pm eastern, that's a great resource.

I was lucky enough to always have musically inclined friends and in college I met a kid named Ian who had an excolypedic knowledge of hip hop, this was when peer to peer file sharing was all the rage and you could really get a big collection on the college's lan. I like all music, but I know the most about hip hop and appreciate it the most.
   132. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4420900)
just looking to raise hackles

boooooo


That's why you're talking like a ghost, right? Because it's scary?
   133. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM (#4420913)
Kendrick Lamar - ##### Don't Kill My Vibe
Lamar fits more in the "I respect" than "I like" bucket for me, but I'd be remiss if I didn't list the guy who found the greatest intersection between sales and acclaim last year. Songs about growing up in Compton, trying to be in, but not of that world.

Two more - one song I love, one artist I love - both from ladies with a sense of theater.
Azealia Banks - 212
Long after I've forgotten Nicki Minaj (who has talent, talent she's eager to punt), I'll remember this track, one which ain't for the kids.

Janelle Monae - Dance or Die
Janelle Monae is not a rapper, she's a singer - and a damn good one. (And a good dancer. And kind of amazing.) Still, this track - the post-orchestral kickoff to The Archandroid, a(nother) scifi concept album, one where she bounces from genre to genre, and where rap (or at least rap-like) is just another genre for her to slip on. That's a pretty big change, I think, from 20+ years ago when you have incongruent things like KRS-ONE popping up on an REM song* - now, there's a much better sense of how to incorporate rap as a style within other styles, whether as cameo or in cases where an artist like M.I.A. could credibly be called a rapper or a singer, if you feel the need to say more than pop star.
* Don't talk to me about LL Cool J.

***

Little Brother never really connected with me, which is a shame given that they're from my town. Certainly not bad, though.

Blogs: Sorry, no. I'm just a dabbler anyway, albeit one who is willing to say what he likes and briefly wanted to be in Das Efx (mostly kidding?). I do sometimes listen to Shots Fired, a weekly podcast on the subject.

While I grew up in a neighborhood where rap was the dominant musical currency^, I've been pretty much on my own with it as an adult - I don't even know if anyone else I see on a day to day basis even listens to it beyond when it comes on the radio (which is amazing, given that it's 2013).
^ for a hair more bio, see post 190
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