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Monday, November 19, 2007

White Sox send Garland to Angels for Cabrera

Insert witty quote here

SuperGrover Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:28 PM | 213 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, white sox

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   1. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:34 PM (#2620050)
Angels in a landslide
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:35 PM (#2620053)
Lots of deals! This could be a fun winter.
   3. shoewizard Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:36 PM (#2620056)
Was pitching their biggest need though? Is Wood the full time Shortstop now?
   4. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:36 PM (#2620057)
didn't they just sign Uribe?
   5. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:37 PM (#2620059)
Didn't we just re-sign our own good fielding shortstop?

They'll probably sign Torii Hunter and then Aaron Rowand, just to be safe.
   6. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:37 PM (#2620061)
Cabrera's value will never be higher, and they just got a 28 year old durable effective starter in return.

Looks like a win for LAA to me.
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:38 PM (#2620062)
Does this mean Uribe will be dealt?
   8. JJ1986 Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:39 PM (#2620064)
This is an awful deal for the Sox. Cabrera's a decent complimentary piece, but he was overpaid. Garland had lots of trade value especially with the thin free agent pitching market. Who starts for the Angels now? Izturis? Wood? Aybar?
   9. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:39 PM (#2620065)
Operating purely within a vacuum, I'd rather have Garland.
   10. Loren F. Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:43 PM (#2620071)
Nice move for the Angels. Garland is a good #3 starter on most teams, a #2 on some teams. That's going to be a heck of a pitching staff.
   11. Al Kaline Trio Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:44 PM (#2620077)
They are gonna trade for Miguel Cabrera, there wasn't room for two Cabreras or Cabreri if you will.
   12. James Darnell's #1 Fan Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:47 PM (#2620080)
Win for LAA, IMO.
So, is this the start of the Wood Era?
Sure hope so.
   13. A Random 8-Year-Old Eskimo Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:48 PM (#2620084)
Are we finally at the time we can go back to criticizing almost every move by Kenny Wiliams again?
   14. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:48 PM (#2620085)
What a dumb trade for the Sox. Kenny Williams really wants to start those rumors about his idiocy again. Is this deal official?
   15. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:51 PM (#2620091)
What's Garland's contract status? I know Cabrera's in the last year of his contract.
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:52 PM (#2620092)
What's Garland's contract status? I know Cabrera's in the last year of his contract.

Same. IIRC.
   17. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:53 PM (#2620094)
Cabrera is entering the final year of a multi-year contract that will pay him $9 million this season.

...

Reports of Garland being dealt to the Angels have surfaced as early as after the 2001 season, and he expected to be traded as he entered the final year of a three-year contract that will earn him $12 million in 2008.
   18. Toolsy McClutch Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:53 PM (#2620095)
If I know Kenny, he heard JG fell down the stairs and wanted to deal him fast. Buyer beware!
   19. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:58 PM (#2620102)
What on earth does this accomplish for the White Sox?

Have to think the Angels are clearing space for Cabrera or Tejada, although I can't imagine they can get Cabrera without Wood...are they comfortable with Aybar?
   20. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:58 PM (#2620103)
I can't believe the Angels are getting a middle-of-rotation starter for OC.

Lackey
Escobar
Weaver
Garland
Santana
Saunders

Deepest rotation in the league? I think so. Only Boston has an argument. I wonder if this means one or two of those young arms goes to Florida for Cabrera.
   21. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: November 19, 2007 at 05:59 PM (#2620104)
What's Garland's contract status? I know Cabrera's in the last year of his contract.
Garland's in the last year of his extension, $12 million for 2008.
   22. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:02 PM (#2620108)
How deep a pitching staff do the Angels want? That's 4 guys who are likely to give you ERAs under 4.00 in that park.
   23. AROM Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:03 PM (#2620112)
are they comfortable with Aybar?


God I hope not. He's got "next Neifi Perez" written all over him.

This is a shock. I didn't even think the Angels would consider dealing Cabrera. Looks like Reagins is going to put his stamp on this franchise, and after seeing this I have to think its just the start.

For 2008 SS the safe choice is Maicer Izturis. Wood is an option if he can show he's improved drastically either in spring or by hitting .330/.400/.650 in Salt Lake. Aybar? Eh. Longshot might be Chone Figgins if they trade for Miggy, but that could be real ugly for a groundballer like Garland.
   24. The District Attorney Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:04 PM (#2620113)
I can't imagine they can get Cabrera without Wood
Agreed. If the Mets got Miguel Cabrera, I'd get Wood.
   25. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:04 PM (#2620114)
If I know Kenny, he heard JG fell down the stairs and wanted to deal him fast. Buyer beware!


It does seem like a few of his trades that looked terrible at the time turned out ok. A lot of people freaked out when he traded Jeremy Reed and Mike Morse, but that deal doesn't seem too bad now, and....ok I can't really think of another one. The Rowand for Thome deal didn't turn out as bad as I thought it would?
   26. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:04 PM (#2620115)
Cabrera is a big upgrade on Uribe from an OBP perspective, but he still seems like a steep price for Garland + $3M.
   27. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:05 PM (#2620116)
Excuse me, meant Cabrera + $3M is a steep price for Garland.
   28. AROM Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:06 PM (#2620117)
I have no idea what Tony's thinking though. Maybe more deals are not imminent, and maybe the pitching surplus will wind up with Santana in the bullpen - he looked incredible finishing up for Lackey in game 1 of the playoffs, and could end up as a closer if they think K-Rod can't be signed longterm.
   29. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:07 PM (#2620118)
So, is this the start of the Wood Era?
Sure hope so.


You must hate the Angels. Wood's MLE was something like .210/.270/.400 this year. He's highly overrated, IMO - I think there's a reasonable chance he's never even a ML average SS (or 3B, or wherever he ends up).

Still, you have to like this deal for the Angels. They still won't win anything but the AL West without another hitter, but it never hurts to add a #3 starter at that price.
   30. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:07 PM (#2620119)
You do have to wait a bit before judging this trade from the Sox perspective because this probably means Uribe is on the move.
   31. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:09 PM (#2620122)
You do have to wait a bit before judging this trade from the Sox perspective because this probably means Uribe is on the move.

Unless Uribe gets traded for a league average starting pitcher, it still doesn't look good for the Sox.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:11 PM (#2620123)
Cabrera has a career OBP of .321 and in this age of offense that ain't so hot no matter how good the defense. Even in 2007 having a good season his OBP+ was below average. When your most similar player is Red Kress that says something and I doubt it's pleasant.

Garland's an odd duck in that he keeps getting results despite not striking anyone out. But this isn't a fluke. Kid has done it for several years now. Put him on a pretty solid Angels team with Sciosia working his pitcher "thingie" and Garland may actually get BETTER.

Sure seems like a good deal for the Angels.
   33. DKDC Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:11 PM (#2620124)
This has Wood/Santana/Prospect for Tejada written all over it.
   34. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:14 PM (#2620129)
Up until now, I had the White Sox making The Big Deal for Tejada. I guess the LAoA are definitely the front-runners, now. I wonder what the Orioles can expect to get back from the Angels in exchange for Tejada.

Tejada is $12MM per, over the next two years, right?

EDIT: I could live with that package for Tejada.
   35. stealfirstbase Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:15 PM (#2620130)
$3 million? Link?

If the White Sox are paying Cabrera only 6 million in 2008, that's not a bad deal.
   36. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:15 PM (#2620132)
This has Wood/Santana/Prospect for Tejada written all over it.

That's what I'm thinking/hoping. All in all, Garland replacing Santana and Tejada replacing Cabrera would be a pretty nice move for the Angels. Even in a down year Tejada had 15 points of OPS+ on Cabrera, and Garland is a huge upgrade on Santana.
   37. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:16 PM (#2620133)
Do the Angels think Tejada can still play SS then?
   38. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:16 PM (#2620134)
I think he means that the difference in salary is 3 million, not that one team is sending money to the other.
   39. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:19 PM (#2620140)
I know some were concerned about the impact of Tejada's wrist injury but I think hitting 10 homers in August put that question to rest. He's 31, a good ballplayer, overpaid but clearly motivated to play for a winner.
   40. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:21 PM (#2620141)
Do the Angels think Tejada can still play SS then?


If he can't, they have a hole at 3B too.

edit:
I know some were concerned about the impact of Tejada's wrist injury but I think hitting 10 homers in August put that question to rest. He's 31, a good ballplayer, overpaid but clearly motivated to play for a winner.
.

agreed.
a couple years in Baltimore would depress anybody.

Put Miguel on a winner and he still has the talent to compete for an MVP.
   41. shoewizard Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:22 PM (#2620142)
Excuse me, meant Cabrera + $3M is a steep price for Garland.


Cabrera is due 10 million in 2008, 9 million salary, plus 1 million bonus. So he'll be making 10. Garland Makes 12. And Chicago is sending money to the Angels. So the Angels are not likely to be paying any more for Garland than they were going to have to pay Cabrera

EDIT: Oopss..my bad....per ESPN article Chicago also receives cash as part of the trade. Probably less than one million, I would guess.
   42. VG Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:22 PM (#2620144)
I think he means that the difference in salary is 3 million, not that one team is sending money to the other.

The Angels' press release said that the team is sending cash to the White Sox: link. I haven't seen any reports on how much.

I would have preferred to see the Sox trade Garland for prospects and try to make a deal for Tejada themselves. (Just keeping the prospects isn't really an option given the contract extensions they gave out over the summer.)

I had forgotten that Bill Stoneman isn't the GM of the Angels any longer.
   43. stealfirstbase Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:23 PM (#2620145)
I think he means that the difference in salary is 3 million, not that one team is sending money to the other.


the White Sox dealt dependable starting pitcher Jon Garland to the Los Angeles Angels for Gold Glove shortstop Orlando Cabrera and cash.

Maybe not.

EDIT: "Cabrera is due 10 million in 2008, 9 million salary, plus 1 million bonus. So he'll be making 10. Garland Makes 12. And Chicago is sending money to the Angels. So the Angels are not likely to be paying any more for Garland than they were going to have to pay Cabrera"

I think you've got this reversed, Shoewizard. Also, the signing team always pays the signing bonus, no matter how its prorated.
   44. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:24 PM (#2620146)
What?! What?! What?!
   45. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:24 PM (#2620147)
Doesn't Garland have stinky peripherals?
   46. stealfirstbase Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:26 PM (#2620150)
Doesn't Garland have stinky peripherals?

It doesn't matter, unless you value peripherals over results. Garland's been a good pitcher for a good while with those peripherals.
   47. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:28 PM (#2620153)
So, is this the start of the Wood Era?
Sure hope so.


Are you an A's fan?

Honestly, I'm just confused by this whole "send a player from your team to another team and get another player back" thing.
   48. Rodder Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:29 PM (#2620155)
I had forgotten that Bill Stoneman isn't the GM of the Angels any longer.

That's the question I have. In moving to another role on the team has Stoneman completely relinquished control of personel, or does he still have a heavy hand in setting the overall team mindset? In other words, should we expect things to change for LA?
   49. shoewizard Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:29 PM (#2620156)
I think you've got this reversed, Shoewizard. Also, the signing team always pays the signing bonus, no matter how its prorated.


Yeah, I already corrected the part about the money going from LA to CHI......but not 100% sure about the signing bonus definitely being paid by signing team. Why wouldn't that be negotiable? Or maybe thats the money thats going to Chicago?
   50. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:30 PM (#2620160)
I'm just confused by this whole "send a player from your team to another team and get another player back" thing.

It's called a trade.

And yes, it is legal.

Ha!
   51. shoewizard Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:30 PM (#2620161)
Doesn't Garland have stinky peripherals?


It doesn't matter, unless you value peripherals over results. Garland's been a good pitcher for a good while with those peripherals.


Unless of course degrading peripherals are a hint that a guy is ready to implode. I know it's not always the case...but I am still scarred by Russ Ortiz.
   52. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:30 PM (#2620162)
Maybe Moreno swoops in at the last minute and signs A-Rod to play SS.
   53. DCA Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:35 PM (#2620166)
Maybe Moreno swoops in at the last minute and signs A-Rod to play SS.

Nope ... it'll be Garland, Santana, and Figgins to the Yankees for A-Rod in a sign-and-trade (thanks to Steve Goldman's Speaker piece for the idea). Then Adenhart and Wood to the Orioles for Tejada and Jamie Walker.
   54. AROM Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:36 PM (#2620167)
Ortiz had bad all-around peripherals. Garland at least has very good control, and gets a lot of groundballs. His homerun rate should be very good once he's out of Comiskey II. But that strikeout rate is pretty bad. I hope the Angels see him as a one year solution. Hope for the best, then take the draft picks and turn the rotation spot over to Adenhart in 2009. Let somebody else worry about the strikeouts on a 4-5 year deal.
   55. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:37 PM (#2620168)
Oh, yeah, A-Rod. Teams want him, too.

Man, I will be bummed if Tejada is still on the roster at the opening of next season.

Not as bummed as he'll be, of course.
   56. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:38 PM (#2620170)
Does anyone know whether Cabrera is likely to be a type-A free agent after this season? I'd say that's pretty key when discussing this deal, as I don't think Garland is going to qualify for type-A as he doesn't rate very well in the 'sexy' stats like wins, losses and ERA.

EDIT: Answering my own question, I see that Cabrera was solidly among the type-As for this season's rankings and -- barring him completely falling off the table -- he should remain type A into next winter. That's probably not a huge concern for the Angels with Garland, on the other hand, as I imagine they'll be attempting to extend Garland.
   57. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:42 PM (#2620173)
Slight edge to the Angels, though I think the Sox figured a) Garland would command at least 4 years on his next contract, and b) Garland complained of a "knot" in his shoulder thoughout 2007 and maybe Kenny Williams figured he wasn't going to take that kind of a chance.

Plus this frees up six million bucks which will come in handy to address other needs. Sorta like the Lee-for-Podsednik deal a few years ago.
   58. AROM Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:42 PM (#2620174)
Garland did pretty well in wins for 2005-06. Unless he does a Jeff Weaver type implosion he's got a good chance of winning a lot of games in 2008. I would think Cabrera has an excellent chance at type A - He hit over .300 and whether or not you believe he's the best SS in te league, he certainly has the best fielding percentage. He should be the type that formula likes.
   59. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:43 PM (#2620176)
Does anyone know whether Cabrera is likely to be a type-A free agent after this season?

It's based on two years of stats so it's highly dependent on Cabrera's 2008. He did have a good 2007 (192 hits, 35 doubles, good OBP).
   60. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:48 PM (#2620185)
Does anyone know whether Cabrera is likely to be a type-A free agent after this season?

i would gamble yes.

i'll even give odds.
   61. Walt Davis Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:49 PM (#2620188)
I'd never realized Garland's K rate was that low. Have to toss him into my BIP pitcher basket. He is an odd one in that basket as he's not particularly good at any of the things that BIP pitchers generally need to be good at -- i.e. he doesn't have an extremely low BB rate (and therefore has a mediocre K/BB ratio) or HR rate. In 2005-6, he did have that low BB rate and excellent K/BB and those were his best and 3rd best full seasons and 2007 he had a low HR rate (his 2nd best full season).

Based on stats, he's somewhat similar to Rueter but with an extra 9 points of ERA+ somehow or Jake Westbrook with an extra 5 points of ERA+. A good bet for 1 year of league-average pitching.

Of course add 1.5 runs to that if the Angels go with Cabrera at 3B and Wood at SS. :-)

This trade makes no sense to me from the Sox perspective. Even if Garland's arm falls off and he gives nothing to the Angels, Cabrera's not a huge upgrade over Uribe. And it leaves the Sox with Buehrle and Vazquez and maybe Contreras as reliable starters. They really are looking like a 72-win team these days. And Torii Hunter isn't going to substantially improve that.
   62. Rich Rifkin I Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:51 PM (#2620190)
To the great disgruntlement of all those folks who despise Win Shares, Orlando Cabrera (in 2007 at least) was the best WS SS in the AL:

2007 Cabrera O LAA 25
2007 Jeter D NYA 24
2007 Young M TEX 23
2007 Peralta J CLE 22
2007 Guillen C DET 19
2007 Betancourt Y SEA 19
2007 Bartlett J MIN 16
2007 Tejada M BAL 15
2007 Harris B TB 13
2007 Uribe J CHA 13

Cabrera was not markedly worse in 2006, coming in 5th in that campaign with 19 WS.

Garland was Chicago's 3rd best WS starter last season:

2007 Lackey J LAA 22
2007 Vazquez J CHA 19
2007 Escobar K LAA 18
2007 Buehrle M CHA 17
2007 Garland J CHA 13
2007 Weaver J LAA 12
2007 Contreras J CHA 5
2007 Saunders J LAA 4
   63. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:51 PM (#2620191)
For clarity purposes, the $3M of which I was referring above was the savings the Sox made due to the difference in salaries.

So in addition to this savings, the Sox are also receiving cash considerations? Of how much?
   64. shoewizard Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:52 PM (#2620193)
Ortiz had bad all-around peripherals.

I know...I wasn't trying to make a comp....just trying to be funny.

Still....his K/BB ratio was down quite a bit from the previous 2 seasons, and his GB/FB ratio was down a bit too. I don't see him getting any better than he was last year. He either maintains or gets worse. But for a guy with one year left on his contract, this is a good get for the Angels.

K/BB
05: 2.45
06: 2.73
07: 1.72
Career 1.61

GB/FB
05: 1.44
06: 1.13
07: 1.16
Career 1.27
   65. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:53 PM (#2620194)
Hope for the best, then take the draft picks and turn the rotation spot over to Adenhart in 2009.

AROM, you do know that Garland wasn't -- or at least I think he wasn't -- a type-A based on this season's rankings, yes? Of course, you're probably right that a move to LAA will result in Garland becoming type-A, as he'll be in a much better pitcher's park with a much better team in front of (and behind) him.

I doubt Garland will implode, unless the rumors of a knot in his shoulder are true and much more serious than what's being let on. These rumors came about in the middle of 2007 and it's not like he was horrible in the second half of the season. As has been mentioned his control is very good. When he's 'on' he's got a pretty good two-seamer/sinker with a nice complimenting changeup. Any breaking ball that he has is more of a 'show-me' pitch that he'll throw to get ahead in the count, although over the years that pitch has also improved. Again -- barring injury -- I see no reason why Garland won't give the Angels 200+ innings of a 4.00-4.20 ERA.

Thanks for the years, Jon -- especially 2005 -- and best of luck in Anahiem.
   66. TerpNats Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:54 PM (#2620195)
Just checked WSI, and Chisox fans generally aren't happy with this move:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94763

So where does Uribe go now?
   67. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:56 PM (#2620196)
This weakens the Sox the same way CLee for Pods did, so make room for another flag.
   68. AROM Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:58 PM (#2620198)
It blows my mind that Mark Buerhle didn't make type A. So knowing that, it doesn't surprise me that Garland isn't either. Cabrera's probably a better bet to get type A because he does things I know the formula likes - batting average and fielding average.
   69. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 19, 2007 at 06:59 PM (#2620199)
general manager Ken Williams said the White Sox have ample depth in the minors with pitchers like Lance Broadway and will likely start with a rotation of Mark Buehrle, Javier Vazquez, Jose Contreras, John Danks and Gavin Floyd in 2008.


"We're not done yet. We're still trying to land a big fish," Williams said.
   70. Valentine Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:00 PM (#2620200)
Uribe isn't any better than other utility infielders. While $4.5M is on the high end for that role, the White Sox are a big-payroll team and can perhaps afford that luxury.
   71. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:02 PM (#2620201)
The Cubs are looking for 6 or 7 utility infielders.
   72. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:03 PM (#2620204)
Cabrera's not a huge upgrade over Uribe

I disagree with this...offensively Uribe has represented one of two huge/enormous/gigantic holes in the Sox offense for two seasons. His complete inability to get on base (274 OBP last season) was a problem...while Cabrera may not be a world beater offensively, he represents a pretty clear upgrade.
   73. Urban Faber Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:04 PM (#2620206)
Uribe isn't any better than other utility infielders. While $4.5M is on the high end for that role, the White Sox are a big-payroll team and can perhaps afford that luxury.

Or he might be the second baseman.
   74. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:05 PM (#2620210)
   75. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:09 PM (#2620215)
Honestly, I've never been able to figure Jon Garland out. There doesn't seem to be anything he does well, but somehow it all works. I've been waiting for him to implode for years, but I've just about given up on that.
   76. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:09 PM (#2620216)
It blows my mind that Mark Buerhle didn't make type A.

He had a bad 2006.
   77. Shredder Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:12 PM (#2620220)
USS Mariner: Angels get worse
Shorter Dave (Cameron?): All trades happen in a vaccuum and this in no way portends to any future dealing by the Angels.
   78. Rodder Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:13 PM (#2620222)
Honestly, I've never been able to figure Jon Garland out. There doesn't seem to be anything he does well, but somehow it all works. I've been waiting for him to implode for years, but I've just about given up on that.

We Phillies fans are hoping Kyle Kendrick is the next Jon Garland.
   79. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:14 PM (#2620223)
USS Mariner: Angels get worse

Some of those folks are a little off the deep end, there. One guy says Seattle pwns Garland, which isn't exactly true if you look at the actual record instead of wishcasting.
   80. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:15 PM (#2620224)
Honestly, I've never been able to figure Jon Garland out. There doesn't seem to be anything he does well, but somehow it all works. I've been waiting for him to implode for years, but I've just about given up on that.


I'm not saying the consensus view is wrong here, but I'm somewhat surprised that Jon Garland with a $12 million contract is being lauded as a great pick-up here. It's funny how perceptions can change.

This weakens the Sox the same way CLee for Pods did, so make room for another flag.


While this is obviously being said at least partly tongue-in-cheek, I do see some similarity. I think this deal can't necessarily be fairly judged until we see what follows it - probably for both teams.
   81. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:20 PM (#2620233)
USS Mariner: Angels get worse
They're pretty much the only people who think so. Even if the Angels don't make another move, they're better now than they were yesterday.
   82. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:21 PM (#2620235)
While this is obviously being said at least partly tongue-in-cheek, I do see some similarity. I think this deal can't necessarily be fairly judged until we see what follows it - probably for both teams.

This is true. I overreacted with my initial comment. The Sox very well could flip Cabrera somewhere else or plug Uribe at second. I really think the Angels have something else cooking, though. The problem for the Angels is going to be that perception that Aybar, Wood and Santana aren't as good as they were though to be last year. It's weird what a calendar year will do to the prospects of prospects.
   83. DCA Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:21 PM (#2620236)
Or he might be the second baseman.

You could do worse than a Richar/Uribe platoon. Not much worse, but it's livable. Looking at Uribe's career month to month splits, I wonder if he's a white guy:


Apr .294 .342 .453
May .231 .277 .348
Jun .246 .283 .408
July .205 .256 .351
Aug .249 .282 .417
Sep .295 .332 .560
p'05 .286 .362 .476

April includes any March stats, September includes any October regular season stats, and p'05 is the postseason. He's a cold-weather player, it appears.
   84. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:23 PM (#2620238)
I don't know that Brandon Wood isn't a major league shortstop, but I do agree with David Cameron that he's not yet ready for prime time.

Like many other folks, I guess, I want to see how the rest of the dominoes fall before evaluating this trade. As a straight-up deal, I think the White Sox got the better of it, but if it clears the decks for the Angels to add a power bat on the left side of the infield, then I think they'll come out of it OK.

-- MWE
   85. Mike Green Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:28 PM (#2620245)
$12 million for Jon Garland? Visions of Scott Erickson's implosion leap to mind. Orlando Cabrera is simply a much better player...
   86. Every Inge Counts Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:28 PM (#2620247)
Renetira to Detroit
O.C. to Chicago
Alex Gonzalez to Minnesota
Pokey Reese to Kansas City
   87. Shredder Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:28 PM (#2620248)
Worst case scenario, the Angels make no additional moves, and hopefully Maicer takes over at short. He'll only be 27, and has a lot more offensive potential than Cabrera going forward. He's serviceable defensively.

So basically, even if they don't make another deal, they lose almost nothing, and gain Garland. I like OC, and he was a great guy to have on the team, but without question, as David says, this deal makes the Angels better right now.
   88. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:30 PM (#2620252)
April includes any March stats, September includes any October regular season stats, and p'05 is the postseason. He's a cold-weather player, it appears.

But...but...Dusty said...
   89. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:31 PM (#2620255)
Wood is one year away with the bat (I guess I should add an "at least" there). I think he can play shortstop, though he may always put on weight and be better served at 3B.

I just fear Aybar being the starter.

I gotta say, I'm not sure if this makes the team better or worse. I think it's going to be have to be evaluated in the context of moves that are likely to come. But no matter what else we do, I'm still not going to have any clue of what to expect from Garland.
   90. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:33 PM (#2620261)
With the addition of Garland, the Angels are one of three teams with five starters on the roster who pitched 100 innings or more at a 100+ ERA or more.

Arbitrary data points, etc. but it sure speaks to the depth of their staff.

2007 IP / ERA+

Angels
Lackey - 224 / 151
Escobar - 196 / 134
Weaver - 161 / 117
Garland - 208 / 112
Saunders - 107 / 103

Jays
Halladay- 225 / 120
McGowan - 170 / 109
Burnett - 166 / 119
Marcum - 159 / 108
Litsch - 111 / 117

Cubs
Lilly - 207 / 122
Zambrano - 216 / 118
Marquis - 192 / 101
Hill - 195 / 119
Marshall - 103 / 119

Giants - just missed
Zito - 197 / 98
Cain - 200 / 122
Lowry - 156 / 113
Lincecum - 146 / 111
Morris - 137 / 102
   91. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:33 PM (#2620262)
From USS Mariner:

Despite his reputation, Garland is just a generic #4 starter.

On the Angels perhaps, but am I wrong in thinking Garland would be the second best pitcher in Seattle's rotation? I think a lot of fans have a very distorted perception as to what a fourth starter is.
   92. Shredder Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:33 PM (#2620264)
Scott Erickson imploded at age 32. Garland is 28.
   93. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:34 PM (#2620265)
Tampa Bay would appear to have a need for a one-year stopgap SS and some extra OF.
   94. Dag Nabbit is a cornucopia of errors Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:36 PM (#2620269)
It doesn't matter, unless you value peripherals over results. Garland's been a good pitcher for a good while with those peripherals.

Unless of course degrading peripherals are a hint that a guy is ready to implode.

His peripherals aren't degrading. His K-rate remains low. His walk rate remains very good. He gives up lots of homers, but that peripheral has actually improved in recent years.

Ortiz had bad all-around peripherals. Garland at least has very good control, and gets a lot of groundballs. His homerun rate should be very good once he's out of Comiskey II.

Looking at the last couple years though, he rally hasn't allowed that many more homers in Chicago than on the road.
   95. rfloh Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:37 PM (#2620273)
#91

DIPS. That appears to be the reason that people on the Mariners and A's blogs who like this deal, and who are making this argument, base their arguments on.
   96. Iwakuma Chameleon (jonathan) Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:37 PM (#2620274)
Not a fun time for A's fans.

Scutaro gets traded (to make room for Murphy/Hannahan, which probably makes the team better, but remember, we're talking fun here), the Angels get better, and now that lovely Dominican funball Miguel Tejada may become an Angel. Ewwwwwww.
   97. Dag Nabbit is a cornucopia of errors Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:38 PM (#2620276)
First Erstad, now Cabrera. The Sox are trying to corner the market on Anaheim castoffs.


Some of those folks are a little off the deep end, there. One guy says Seattle pwns Garland, which isn't exactly true if you look at the actual record instead of wishcasting.

His one start against them in 2007 was a disaster (2.2 IP, 10 R, 5 ER), but he pitched well against them in 2004, 2005, and 2006.
   98. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:39 PM (#2620278)
Tampa Bay would appear to have a need for a one-year stopgap SS and some extra OF.


If Kenny could somehow spin some kind of deal that involves Juan Uribe going to Tampa and Carl Crawford coming to the South Side of Chicago that could be a heck of a deal for Chicago. If this deal is the precursor to something like that, I think it'd look a LOT better. Although I can't imagine that Crawford's going to be cheap to acquire and Uribe sure as hell wouldn't be the centerpiece of that deal.
   99. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:40 PM (#2620282)
Is 1 hr/9 really a lot of homers in that ballpark and the AL? He has given up exactly almost exactly that many homers the last three seasons. Doesn't seem like that many to me.
   100. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: November 19, 2007 at 07:43 PM (#2620287)
I was thinking more Baldelli than Crawford, but anything's possible. I'm not sure about Rocco's health status as well.
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