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Monday, May 21, 2018

Whitey Herzog Offered Hernandez to the Mets in 1980, 2+ Years Before Trade

SN: Did you know that Whitey offered you to the Mets and asked for Tim Leary, Doug Flynn and Neil Allen?

KH: I didn’t know that. Who did he ask for?

History and sabermetrics haven’t been kind to Flynn, the Mets’ 1980 starting second baseman and only the most diehard Mets fans of the day remember what great hopes the franchise held for Leary. Neil Allen was a valuable trade chip but not crucial to the team’s success, with rookie Jeff Reardon who could’ve easily slid into the fireman role in the Mets’ bullpen (Reardon would go on to pitch 16 seasons and is currently 10th on the all-time saves list.)

SN: Neil Allen, Tim Leary, and Doug Flynn.

KH: He offered to trade me in 1980? Wow. If he wanted that deal, Whitey was out of his mind. Interesting.

djordan Posted: May 21, 2018 at 12:43 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: keith hernandez, mlb trade rumors

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   1. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 21, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5676604)
Leary was supposed to be the great hope for a pitching staff. They had been relying on Craig Swan, Pat Zachry and a busted Randy Jones. Dwight Gooden was a sophomore in high school and Ron Darling was a junior at Yale.

He was a proto-Matt Harvey, if you will.

He started game 3 of the 1981 season in a cold rain at Wrigley, hurt his arm and didn't see an MLB mound until 1984.

Call him Generation J...
   2. Rally Posted: May 21, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5676666)
That's a better deal than Whitey got for Hernandez 3 years later. He still got Neil Allen, but instead of Leary and Flynn only got Rick Ownbey, who pitched a total of 61 innings with an 89 ERA+ after the trade.

Hard to imagine the need to trade Hernandez so badly. He wasn't as good as his MVP year of 1979, but it was 99% as good.

I remember Leary having a very good season and winning a ring for the 88 Dodgers - 17-11, 2.91 ERA that year. But that was his only good season. He was drafted 2nd overall in the 1979 draft and had a very good pro debut season in 1980, so I can understand that he would have had a lot of value at the time. Though not enough value to trade for a 26 year old defending MVP.

   3. salvomania Posted: May 21, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5676672)
The trade Herzog did eventually make with the Mets (in June 1983) was indeed Hernandez for Neil Allen, with another SP prospect, Rick Ownbey, thrown in as well.

In the interim 2-1/2 years, Allen was a mediocre closer (close to a hit per inning, high walk rate, etc.) who was having a terrible 1983, during which the Mets toyed with him as a starter for a bit. He was still young, and with a live arm, and apparently Herzog still coveted him.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: May 21, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5676676)
I wonder if that's a mistake. Hernandez wondered who Whitey asked for right after he told him who he asked for (and it's that way in the FA).

That's a better deal than Whitey got for Hernandez 3 years later. He still got Neil Allen, but instead of Leary and Flynn only got Rick Ownbey, who pitched a total of 61 innings with an 89 ERA+ after the trade.


But in that case, he got three extra years of Hernandez, so the latter deal was much better.
   5. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 21, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5676680)
In the interim 2-1/2 years,


...Keith hernandez was instrumental in a Cardinals WS title. He had 4.6 WAR that year as the Cardinals beat the Phillies by 3 games. He drove in 8 runs in the WS that the Cardinals won 4-3.
   6. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5676695)
#4 - I read it as a double take on KH’s part.
   7. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: May 21, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5676696)
Hard to imagine the need to trade Hernandez so badly. He wasn't as good as his MVP year of 1979, but it was 99% as good.

I didn't think Whitey "needed" to trade Hernandez, except for the power struggle where Whitey told him to clean up his nose but Hernandez wouldn't, so Whitey wanted to bury him on the Mets in much the same way that he buried John Mayberry in Toronto for the same reason.
   8. Leroy Kincaid Posted: May 21, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5676733)
SN: Did you know that Whitey offered you to the Mets and asked for Tim Leary, Doug Flynn and Neil Allen?

KH: I didn’t know that. Who did he ask for?


Is Hernandez hard of hearing or senile?
   9. cardsfanboy Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5676769)
I didn't think Whitey "needed" to trade Hernandez, except for the power struggle where Whitey told him to clean up his nose but Hernandez wouldn't, so Whitey wanted to bury him on the Mets in much the same way that he buried John Mayberry in Toronto for the same reason.


There was a power struggle, but only revisionist thinks it's because Whitey had a problem with cocaine. The power struggle, was the same as the one that he had with Simmons. Whitey doesn't want anyone in the locker room smarter than him. Whitey still raves about Daryl Porter, you know a guy who literally died with cocaine in his system and was a known drug user before Whitey even got him. If you want to defend Whitey, you can go with the argument that Keith created a clique in the clubhouse and that Whitey didn't like the clique, since he felt that they weren't listening to him, and instead were picking up bad habits from Keith, and Whitey had to get rid of the ring leader to send them a message.
   10. Stormy JE Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5676780)
Is Hernandez hard of hearing or senile?
The entire excerpt is confusing.
   11. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5676784)
I really don't find KH's response confusing. People talk like that all the time. I think that journalists usually scrub little redundancies like that away.
   12. Stormy JE Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5676790)
History and sabermetrics haven’t been kind to Flynn, the Mets’ 1980 starting second baseman and only the most diehard Mets fans of the day remember what great hopes the franchise held for Leary. Neil Allen was a valuable trade chip but not crucial to the team’s success, with rookie Jeff Reardon who could’ve easily slid into the fireman role in the Mets’ bullpen (Reardon would go on to pitch 16 seasons and is currently 10th on the all-time saves list.)
Who said this? Keith or the interviewer? If the latter, did he say this to Keith or is it a note to readers?

Not trying to pick on you, DJ: I'm truly confused.
   13. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5676792)
Who said this? Keith or the interviewer? If the latter, did he say this to Keith or is it a note to readers?


Clearly a parenthetical by the author. I bet if we click on it the article we'll find it in italics or blockquote. Who's brave enough to do it?
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5676795)
Italics.
   15. djordan Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5676796)
Hey guys.

@ JE, Keith was pretty taken aback by that trade story.

He did ask twice. I thought the spirit of that last line made that clear. My bad if it didn't.

Yes, that paragraph is a sidebar. In the article, it's supposed to be in a different font/typeface.



   16. djordan Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5676797)

I was doing other research when I came across those articles. I asked a couple friends that are historian-level Mets fans and they didn't remember that trade rumor.

I just thought the Templeton quote was funny in the context of the Ozzie Smith trade the following off-season.

   17. The Duke Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5676808)
Whitey made the right call. Didn’t get great talent back which you never really can in a fire sale but getting rid of a druggie made sense. Kudos for Keith for turning it around and abandoning the white powder. I read somewhere that he had kicked cocaine two weeks prior to trade and was planning on a mea culpa with herzog but never did it and then he was traded.

I also read that Carlton had done the same on his contract with The front office and was traded just as he was going up to tell
The GM he would sign.
   18. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5676830)
Was Keith a "druggie" or just a party animal? The statistics show no significant loss of quality during his cocaine years.
   19. Stormy JE Posted: May 21, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5676832)
Yes, that paragraph is a sidebar. In the article, it's supposed to be in a different font/typeface.
Thanks for the clarification. I was on my smartphone and on the train so clicking through was too difficult.

More importantly, when do you get to interview Hadji?
   20. John DiFool2 Posted: May 21, 2018 at 08:19 PM (#5676869)
Timothy Leary is dead.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: May 21, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5676874)
Because of this article, I went to wiki and read up the pittsburgh Drug Trials, and it seems one of the editors has a rather high opinion of Hernandez/Parker...

Serving as a precursor to those listed on the Mitchell Report not being voted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum due to steroid abuse, Hall of Fame caliber players associated with the drug trials have long been thought to be effectively blackballed from the Hall without being formally banned from baseball. This has prevented Hernandez and Parker from being inducted (as well as their contemporary Pete Rose, who is formally banned for gambling), though Raines would eventually be inducted in 2017.[19][20]


and I'm thinking...no, not really. All you have to do is look at Paul Molitor to know that that quote above isn't really true. Hernandez isn't in the hof, simply because he doesn't really rate. Even with a New York and a St Louis boost(assuming either of those actually exists) it's tough to put in a first baseman with his numbers.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5676913)
Hernandez isn't in the hof, simply because he doesn't really rate. Even with a New York and a St Louis boost(assuming either of those actually exists) it's tough to put in a first baseman with his numbers.


And the other guy's worse.
   23. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5676957)
The conversation's been had plenty, but I think Hernandez would be a perfectly reasonable HOFer, if you believe the defensive rep/stats. But I don't think cocaine is what's keeping him out.

Went to a book signing of his the other day to get a signed copy of I'm Keith Hernandez to give my dad for Father's Day. He wasn't doing a reading, he wasn't telling stories, he wasn't even willing (allowed?) to sign anything other than copies of his book, and they made it very clear that no one was to attempt to engage him in conversation. The line was still about 700 people long, with the earliest arrivers apparently showing up 6 hours ahead of time. I was very amused by it all. I can only imagine the insanity when A-listers show up.

He had to leave after 2 hours, so only about 500 of the 700 ended up getting autographs. My brother and I were 2 of the last 5 to get signatures. I'm glad I secured the gift for my dad, but being at the front of the line when he got up to leave would've made for a more entertaining story.
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5676960)
they made it very clear that no one was to attempt to engage him in conversation.
Probably for the best - you go there to get an autograph, say a few words just to be polite to the guy, and next thing you know you have to help him move.
   25. cardsfanboy Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5676961)

And the other guy's worse.


Yea, I don't even consider Parker for the hof, he's not really in the discussion. Hernandez is in the discussion, but it's hard to put a guy in at an offense first that has a large amount of his value tied up in his defense. I get the argument a run is a run, but certainty of defensive stats is not the same....
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5676972)
Yea, I don't even consider Parker for the hof, he's not really in the discussion. Hernandez is in the discussion, but it's hard to put a guy in at an offense first that has a large amount of his value tied up in his defense. I get the argument a run is a run, but certainty of defensive stats is not the same....


On the other hand, among those players where the numbers pass the look test, Hernandez is clearly one of them. It wouldn't surprise me if the numbers underrate him as overrate him.
   27. QLE Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5677068)
#21 et al-

Quite, in terms of cocaine not mattering- if it did, Ferguson Jenkins would have taken a whole lot longer to get in.

In Raines' case, the issue was that too many people for too long neglected his case because he had the bad luck of Rickey Henderson as a direct contemporary.

In Hernandez's case, the issue is that, to believe he merits induction, you have to give substantial credit to defense at first base- I'm willing to give it, but (as an Andruw Jones skeptic) I fully understand why many others would be less willing to do so.

In Parker's case, finally, the issue is that he has no case- outside his 1975 to 1979 peak, his career is one very good season and a truckload of terrible ones. In practical terms, it's the career of Johnny Callison with several thousand more-or-less worthless plate appearances attached- and when was the last time anyone tried to argue for Johnny Callison?
   28. Rally Posted: May 22, 2018 at 07:23 AM (#5677098)
I don’t buy the idea that there is/was some kind of blackball for second. I’d vote for Keith, but he’s not in for the same reasons Bobby Grich is out - not enough credit given for OBP and defense. Parker is basically a lefty hitting Jim Rice. Their peaks happened at the same time. He’s got bonus points for the AS game throws and a WS ring. But he didn’t get bonus points from Boston media, so he’s out. If he were in he’d be a mistake just like Rice.
   29. Lassus Posted: May 22, 2018 at 08:40 AM (#5677113)
To Hernandez's credit he himself has never whined like plenty of others about not being in or really near the Hall. Just the opposite, in fact, I feel like in one interview (or more than one) he gave kind of an "oh please, no way" when someone suggested it.

Personally - and with a ton of bias - I also feel he would not be out of place in the HOF given his defensive merit. He's almost certainly stuck in the first wing of the HOVG forever, however.
   30. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5677130)
I thought the power struggle was between Whitey Herzog and Gussie Busch, rather than Whitey/Keith -- Whitey wanted to keep Hernandez, but Busch knew about the coke and wanted a purge.
   31. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5677138)
Hernandez drew too many walks and clogged up the bases for the likes of Ozzie Smith and Willie McGee.
   32. bfan Posted: May 22, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5677285)
it's because Whitey had a problem with cocaine.


Funny way to phrase it.
   33. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 22, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5677345)
Hernandez drew too many walks and clogged up the bases for the likes of Ozzie Smith and Willie McGee.


Whitey Herzog very clearly understood the value of walks. He took over the Cardinals in 1981, and they ranked 2nd in the NL in walks that year. After that they ranked 2nd, 5th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 1st, 6th, 7th, and then Whitey got fired. Only in that last full season were they below average, and I'll bet that over the course of Herzog's time there, the Cardinals drew more walks than any other team in the league.
   34. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5677360)

Whitey Herzog very clearly understood the value of walks. He took over the Cardinals in 1981, and they ranked 2nd in the NL in walks that year. After that they ranked 2nd, 5th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 1st, 6th, 7th, and then Whitey got fired. Only in that last full season were they below average, and I'll bet that over the course of Herzog's time there, the Cardinals drew more walks than any other team in the league.


Should have made it clear that I was joking. I have no knowledge whatsoever about Herzog's feelings about walks other than the fact that he hated Keith Hernandez and loved Garry Templeton. Though he did end up replacing Hernandez with Jack Clark eventually who was a walk machine.
   35. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5677379)
Timothy Leary is dead.



A few days ago in here someone called Jason Heyward "Justin Heyward" and now this. Do we need a Moody Blues thread?
   36. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:34 PM (#5677396)
A few days ago in here someone called Jason Heyward "Justin Heyward"


That was actually one of the Rockies' radio announcers. I'm just reporting the news here.
   37. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5677400)
That was actually one of the Rockies' radio announcers. I'm just reporting the news here.


HAHA nice! I'm glad you were the one who reported that because I couldn't remember how that happened. Thank you for refreshing my memory.
   38. The Ghost of Logan Schafer Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5677578)
I would kiss ass on a Moody Blues thread.
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5677582)
I thought the power struggle was between Whitey Herzog and Gussie Busch, rather than Whitey/Keith -- Whitey wanted to keep Hernandez, but Busch knew about the coke and wanted a purge.


Whitey had a problem with anyone that didn't recognize he was in charge. Ted Simmons had a reputation of being a bit of an agitator and was already instrumental in getting one manager fired (although the managers incompetence didn't help any in that regards) Simmons was almost always the smartest man in the room wherever he suited up and he knew that, and Whitey knew that, and Whitey wouldn't have anyone challenging his authority, even before he got the job in St Louis he had already decided that Simmons was going to be gone in short order. And he then went out and acquired a known coke fiend to take his place... so I'm not really seeing a guy who has a problem with cocaine, just a problem with people challenging him.

Keith became the defacto agitator after Simmons was removed from the roster and he challenged Whitey's leadership, he wasn't the guy who was known for working his ass off except when he needed too, and there was a well known incident where Keith refused to shag fly balls(or something like that) while he wanted to do his crossword puzzles. This was a direct challenge to Whitey Herzog and at that point in time Keith's time in St Louis was numbered. Whitey has gone back and changed the story to make himself look better(shock of shockers I know) to say it was because of the coke, but it really wasn't about that, it was because Whitey has to be the man in charge and doesn't tolerate challenges to his Authority.


Should have made it clear that I was joking. I have no knowledge whatsoever about Herzog's feelings about walks other than the fact that he hated Keith Hernandez and loved Garry Templeton. Though he did end up replacing Hernandez with Jack Clark eventually who was a walk machine.


Herzog was absolutely a disciple of the walk. His first two books talk about the value of the walk, he absolutely knew the value of obp when many other teams were still concentrating on batting average. He built some great teams that was designed to capitalize on four things 1. obp 2. speed 3. defense 4. platoon advantage. He didn't just seek out speed, he sought out speedy runners who could get on base, and as a result of having so many speedy runners, by default he also ended up with very good defense. And he loved the platoon advantage long before Tony Larussa started to make a big deal about it, he wasn't as obsessed on the pitching side, but he had as many as 6 switch hitters in the everyday lineup. )
   40. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5677586)
Whitey has to be the man in charge and doesn't tolerate challenges to his Authority.
True, but take it to OTP.
   41. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5677589)
He didn't just seek out speed, he sought out speedy runners who could get on base,
Are you sure about that?

Vince Coleman OBP 1985-90: .320, .301, .363, .313, .316, .340

Willie McGee OBP, 1982-89: .318, .314, .325, .384, .306, .312, .329, .275

That's two good OBP seasons and one acceptable one.
   42. cardsfanboy Posted: May 22, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5677600)
Vince Coleman OBP 1985-90: .320, .301, .363, .313, .316, .340

Willie McGee OBP, 1982-89: .318, .314, .325, .384, .306, .312, .329, .275

That's two good OBP seasons and one acceptable one.

(I count five years at league average or better--well four technically. the .325 was when league average was .326, but close enough to not quibble)

He worked at improving Ozzie Smith's, Willie Wilson obp... With Coleman it wasn't so much obp, as he got what he got.
The three years that the Cardinals made it to the post season, they led the NL in obp. And he actively talks about pursuing it in his books, and trying to cultivate the speedy hitters to improve their obp.

McGee's career obp was .333, league average when he played was .331(even from the time period you listed McGee was .328 to .330 compared to league)
   43. The Duke Posted: May 22, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5677634)
It was the Coke. Hernandez has said as much himself

You might not like herzog but sometimes the obvious answer is the right one
   44. cardsfanboy Posted: May 22, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5677648)
It was the Coke. Hernandez has said as much himself

You might not like herzog but sometimes the obvious answer is the right one


Really? Where?

From Retrosimba

Hernandez testified that he broke his cocaine habit on his own just before the trade to the Mets. Hernandez said what motivated him to stop using was seeing Cardinals teammate Lonnie Smith have a “bad experience” with the drug after a game at Philadelphia.

Herzog said he didn’t know Hernandez had been using drugs, but that he had become suspicious.


And another excerpt from that article, which is an excerpt from Whitey's book.

n his book “White Rat: A Life in Baseball,” Herzog was unsparing in his criticism of Hernandez, saying:

“Keith Hernandez was dogging it … He’s the best defensive first baseman I’ve ever seen. But on offense, he was loafing. He loafed down the line on ground balls and he wasn’t aggressive on the bases.

“What I couldn’t live with was his attitude. I’ve got two basic rules _ be on time and hustle _ and he was having trouble with both of them … His practice habits were atrocious. He’d come out for batting practice, then head back to the clubhouse to smoke cigarettes and do crossword puzzles … It was getting to the point where I was fed up with him.”
   45. The Duke Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:04 PM (#5677769)
Let’s see. Cocaine problem on the team. Formerly great player dogging it. Of course no one knows for sure but he guessed (rightly) that he was. Keith wasn’t snorting off herzogs desk. Your own quotes make the point.

I agree Hernandez has said he got sober before the trade but only days before the trade. Again, Herzog did not know that.
   46. PreservedFish Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5677785)
Crossword puzzles, my word! Keith Hernandez was famously drinking a beer in the clubhouse during the Mets' 1986 WS Game 6 comeback. I think that's just the type of guy he was.
   47. Howie Menckel Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5677844)
Whitey has to be the man in charge and doesn't tolerate challenges to his Authority.

True, but take it to OTP.

I see what you did there
   48. Rally Posted: May 23, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5677962)
Crossword puzzles, my word! Keith Hernandez was famously drinking a beer in the clubhouse during the Mets' 1986 WS Game 6 comeback. I think that's just the type of guy he was.


He was the MVP in 79. He can do what he wants.
   49. wjones Posted: May 23, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5678290)
Weird thing, among many, of this is that cocaine was a drug that has historically been taken to give you a 'lift', a super charged coffee, and that addiction eventually occurs generally because as the more tolerant a person's system becomes the more cocaine the person needs. Hernandez, from all accounts, sounded like a person who was on the opposite of cocaine....dogging it, not hustling, hanging out in the clubhouse doing crosswords. Now he may have been as hooked as anyone, but he doesn't profile that way from all of the accounts I've read.
   50. The Duke Posted: May 23, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5678444)
You should have seen him before he was on coke. Sleeping in his parents basement, showering once a week.
   51. Howie Menckel Posted: May 23, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5678461)
I think what made Keith potentially dangerous is not that he was an addict, but that teammates might think they have no risk, so why not? then their career goes up their nose while Keith rides off into the sunset with Elaine Benes
   52. greenback made it work, honey Posted: May 23, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5678471)
After that they ranked 2nd, 5th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 1st, 6th, 7th, and then Whitey got fired.

Actually Whitey wasn't fired, he quit. I guess we're dying off, but there's a segment of Cardinals fans that has always held against him that he left in the middle of a poopy season. It's something that comes up for years in the comparison between Whitey and TLR, and obviously TLR looks better in that respect.
   53. cardsfanboy Posted: May 23, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5678547)
Actually Whitey wasn't fired, he quit. I guess we're dying off, but there's a segment of Cardinals fans that has always held against him that he left in the middle of a poopy season. It's something that comes up for years in the comparison between Whitey and TLR, and obviously TLR looks better in that respect.


My problem is the reason why he claimed to have quit, he said it was because the front office wasn't giving him money(I think the Cardinals had the third highest payroll in the NL that year---but the difference between the top teams and the middle teams was pretty much nothing) and I look at the team that he quit on, and it was a Whitey built team, that looked exactly like pretty much every Whitey influenced team of the previous decade. It wasn't like the team wasn't getting him the players he wanted, they just weren't having outstanding seasons for him. And it's not like he was a winner every year like Matheny is, instead he would win a division, then post a below .500 record with the same team, win again, then post another losing season or two. He just wasn't capable of taking the same talent he had in a winning year, and getting them to repeat performances enough for the youth to help him out.... and if the youth wasn't his type of player, he wouldn't find room in the lineup for them (most notably being Andy Van Slyke.)
   54. cardsfanboy Posted: May 23, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5678557)
I think what made Keith potentially dangerous is not that he was an addict, but that teammates might think they have no risk, so why not? then their career goes up their nose while Keith rides off into the sunset with Elaine Benes



Wouldn't Daryl Porter, Whitey's favorite player on the team, be the guy that was a much more obvious example of that? Keith was traded before his addiction came out, Porter had already gone through a very public rehab and was getting daily praise from Whitey.... so it's clear that Whitey believes in a path of redemption. (which is again, why it's silly to think that Keith was traded for cocaine, when everyone involved has stated that Whitey didn't know at the time....suspected maybe, but considering Whitey's history of re-imaging the past, I would think that it's more than likely that after the drug trials, he said "a-ha"...than it was that he caught the signs before hand, since he had obviously missed them with Lonnie Smith, Daryl Porter and others before. I mean Keith said he quit cocaine because of a bad incident with Lonnie Smith, it took another two years for Lonnie to get traded)

sometimes the obvious answer is the right one, and the fact that everyone involved, in any quotes ever from either side have said the same thing, and that was the Keith was dogging it, and the crossword puzzles has been mentioned so much, that the obvious answer is that he was traded because he was lollygagging it. There is no evidence that Whitey traded Keith for using, it makes no sense to retroactively give Whitey credit for something like that, when the obvious answer is the right one, which is exactly the reason that Whitey gave, which is that Keith was lollygagging it.

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