6-OXO Extreme. Who gets to name these products?

not sure what will means by "enhances testosterone production in ways similar to anabolic steroids"

If he means pharmacologically similar, he couldn't be more wrong.

If he means it produces a similar effect, that's like saying a cup of coffee produces a similar result as a truckfull of greenies. And that's not too similar.

As for the product marketed to "hardcore users only" so is every damn product. Because people love magic bullets and if it's *that* hardcore surely it must work.

Wasn't there some indication that the bottle which Romero possessed lacked the standard warning? Someone posted that in one of the other threads on this.

Yeah, supposedly the bottle JC presented to the arbitrator didn't have that warning. Also, in the comments Carroll says that "6-OXO Extreme has always carried the warning. 6-OXO has not." I think he may have gotten that backwards becaue JC used the Extreme version.

While legal and still available at your local GNC, 6-OXO Extreme* has always carried a warning that it could result in positive tests.

Except that it doesn't carry such a warning. The warning on the label reads: "Use of this product may be banned by some athletic or government associations (including military)." It's not my intent to defend Romero or Mitre, but why is it so hard to be factually accurate in reporting what the label actually says?

Yeah, supposedly the bottle JC presented to the arbitrator didn't have that warning. Also, in the comments Carroll says that "6-OXO Extreme has always carried the warning. 6-OXO has not." I think he may have gotten that backwards becaue JC used the Extreme version.

Is there a warning on Right Guard Extreme? Does it suggest it's for use by gents with "hardcore" body odor problems?

That would be cool.

There's now an update which says that his bottle of "6-OXO Extreme" contained androstenedione. Not too surprising that Romero tested positive.

Obviously, Patrick "The Chemist" Arnold's jail stint wasn't long enough.

There's now an update which says that his bottle of "6-OXO Extreme" contained androstenedione. Not too surprising that Romero tested positive.

With my knowledge of organic chemistry being slightly out of date, does anyone know if there are commonly used chemicals in these "Nutritional Supplements" which could reasonably be expected to decompose into andro (in sufficient quantities to cause someone to fail a test), or would this be a straight matter of accidental or deliberate contamination. I'm guessing it's the latter, but I'm interested if anyone could provide any information.

EDIT: Based on the following post, it sure sounds like it's not an issue of decomposition.

ANd now there's this:

UPDATE: It appears the substance in the 6-OXO that caused the positive test is another one that Arnold is known for: androstendione. Here’s more technical info if you’re so inclined, from one of the best in that biz.

Androstenedione is not listed as an ingredient on the label linked on the GNC site. The active ingredient in 6-OXO is listed as 4-etioallocholen-3,6 17-trione. They conveniently leave out the "adrostene" part that belongs in front of that last bit. Carroll seems to want to convince us that the labeling should have been clear to anyone, but in fact is providing evidence that the labeling is deliberately misleading.

You know, Holiday Inn Express really should feature Will Carroll to do a commercial that airs only during baseball games.


"How do you know that? Are you a medical doctor with advanced training in pharmacology and applied kinetics?"

"No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express the last time my mom's basement was getting fumigated."

Christ. Would it kill Carroll to get his facts straight just once?

Let's find out.

Truly, we live in exciting times!

Could you make it so that times are a bit less exciting? I'd really prefer it if we could just spend a couple years stuck in "normal", or possibly "dull".

"No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express the last time my mom's basement was getting fumigated."
Nicely played.

I know people like to bag on Carroll, but he is a self made man. He also must have a large set of steel balls to just plow forward the way he does. I can admire that.

I know people like to bag on Carroll, but he is a self made man. He also must have a large set of steel balls to just plow forward the way he does. I can admire that.

I do, too. In fact, I came pretty close to getting him a book deal! Top that #############!

Doesn't mean I can't poke fun when it's warranted, though.

Could you make it so that times are a bit less exciting? I'd really prefer it if we could just spend a couple years stuck in "normal", or possibly "dull".

C'mon Ryan, as any good options trader knows, there's money to be made in volatility. Grab your dick and jump! Seize the day!

people like to bag on Carroll, but he is a self made man. He also must have a large set of steel balls to just plow forward the way he does.

you could say the same thing about Danny Bonaduce (or Tonya Harding, for that matter)

you could say the same thing about Danny Bonaduce (or Tonya Harding, for that matter)

Or Patrick Arnold.

C'mon Ryan, as any good options trader knows, there's money to be made in volatility.

Shooty, the volatility already took my money. Now, if you're willing to front me a couple bucks....

Shooty, the volatility already took my money. Now, if you're willing to front me a couple bucks....

You're welcome to all my Lehman stock.

Grab your dick ... Seize the day!

Carpe genitor?

Best Regards

John

Carroll seems to want to convince us that the labeling should have been clear to anyone, but in fact is providing evidence that the labeling is deliberately misleading.

As Rob Neyer pointed out on his blog post on the subject, the label does say:

Use of this product may be banned by some athletic and government associations (including military)

Now, maybe Romero wouldn't have known andro was in the bottle, but with a warning like that, shouldn't he have known something was in there? And, I don't know about you, but if I read that statement, I take out the may and read it:

Use of this product is banned by some athletic and government associations (including military)

Androstenedione is not listed as an ingredient on the label linked on the GNC site. The active ingredient in 6-OXO is listed as 4-etioallocholen-3,6 17-trione

Of course it's not listed. No one's going to list andro on there, it's a banned substance in most sports! That would absolutely kill the marketing for it.

And, I'm not really sure there's any repercussions. Thanks to Orrin Hatch, "natural" supplements like this fall outside the jurisdiction of the FDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FDA in charge of making sure what's on the label is in the product?

Thanks to Orrin Hatch, "natural" supplements like this fall outside the jurisdiction of the FDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FDA in charge of making sure what's on the label is in the product?

You just answered your own question - in this case, the answer is no.

There's really not very much regulation of "nutritional supplements" - they're required to put a disclaimer on the packaging "these claims have not been analyzed by the FDA, etc., etc.). Beyond that, unless they're actively poisoning people, it's pretty much caveat emptor.

There's really not very much regulation of "nutritional supplements" - they're required to put a disclaimer on the packaging "these claims have not been analyzed by the FDA, etc., etc.). Beyond that, unless they're actively poisoning people, it's pretty much caveat emptor.


So, pretty much, even if an athlete does say "I read the label", it doesn't really matter. Nice.

Of course it's not listed. No one's going to list andro on there, it's a banned substance in most sports! That would absolutely kill the marketing for it.

Good point. Not to mention that since it's now illegal to sell it at all, GNC would be risking prosecution and Patrick Arnold would be looking at another, even longer stint in jail.

And honestly, what the heck does a career setup man who barely averages 60 innings a year need to take "6-OXO Extreme" for anyway? It's kind of preposterous if you think about it.

Don't you think it's the borderline guys that have the most incentive to cheat?

And honestly, what the heck does a career setup man who barely averages 60 innings a year need to take "6-OXO Extreme" for anyway? It's kind of preposterous if you think about it.

It takes real supplements to jaw at the ump the way JC does it

what the heck does a career setup man who barely averages 60 innings a year need to take "6-OXO Extreme" for anyway?

That's sort of my question. I don't get the appeal of those kinds of supplements to a baseball player.

That's sort of my question. I don't get the appeal of those kinds of supplements to a baseball player.

I know back office clerks who take this stuff. I doubt they do it for professional reasons.

As Rob Neyer pointed out on his blog post on the subject, the label does say:

As you may not have noticed, I pointed out exactly the same thing way back in comment #5. Romero's story, and apparently he's sticking with it, is that the bottle he bought didn't have such a warning on it, and that two different nutritionists read the label and told him they didn't think the stuff was banned. For whatever that's worth. Carroll's original statement was that this product has always carried a warning that it could cause a positive test. That just isn't true.

{EDIT: it is wrong on two counts, first, 6-OXO has been sold without this warning in the past, and second, the warning says that 6-OXO itself may be banned by some agencies, not that the supplement could cause you to test positive for other compounds, which is what Carroll originally implied -- ironically, that latter statement may very well be true, but it isn't what the label warns the user about.}

Then again, the fact that Carroll wrote something that isn't true has no real bearing on the question of whether Romero intended to cheat.

Again, I'm not defending Romero or Mitre, I'm just asking why Carroll can't be bothered to be a little bit more careful about stating things as facts without checking. Even if he is on vacation. If you don't have the time to do the story right, then don't do the story.

Not to mention that since it's now illegal to sell it at all, GNC would be risking prosecution...

The supplement does not contain the now-illegal substance known as Androstenedione. It contains something called Androstenetrione, which may or may not have the same properties and may or may not be banned or illegal. The former would depend on some detailed study of chemistry and physiology that I don't think any of us has done, and the latter would depend on the precise wording of codes, statutes and/or regulations that I don't think any of us have actually read. So maybe we shouldn't make these assumptions.

Now even if this Androstenetrione stuff is legal, the people marketing it would certainly want to do everything they could to avoid having anyone think that they're selling them the illegal stuff.

Don't you think it's the borderline guys that have the most incentive to cheat?

Most definitely. They have the most to gain.

As you may not have noticed, I pointed out exactly the same thing way back in comment #5.

I didn't notice. My apologies.

The Jerry Royster Experience Posted: January 06, 2009 at 06:29 PM (#3044898)
what the heck does a career setup man who barely averages 60 innings a year need to take "6-OXO Extreme" for anyway?

That's sort of my question. I don't get the appeal of those kinds of supplements to a baseball player.

???? You don't get the appeal of supplements that claim that they can boost testosterone production legally, that claim possible anabolic effects legally, to an athlete?

32. Shooty Is Getting Off Clint's Lawn, Pronto Posted: January 06, 2009 at 06:40 PM (#3044905)
That's sort of my question. I don't get the appeal of those kinds of supplements to a baseball player.

I know back office clerks who take this stuff. I doubt they do it for professional reasons.

Remember the thread about Girardi and the dietary regime that he was / is trying to impose on the Yanks? And that people posted that they would be happy for a magic pill that could make them more physically attractive?

The bottle may not say it'll cause you to test positive, but it does say "Maximum Testosterone." That's a pretty fair clue.

I'm amazed that something like 6-OXO Extreme fits under nutritional supplement. Tony the Tiger's complete balanced breakfast ain't got nothin' on this.

Apparently 6-OXO isn't even very effective.

Thanks to Orrin Hatch, "natural" supplements like this fall outside the jurisdiction of the FDA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FDA in charge of making sure what's on the label is in the product?

You just answered your own question - in this case, the answer is no.

There's really not very much regulation of "nutritional supplements" - they're required to put a disclaimer on the packaging "these claims have not been analyzed by the FDA, etc., etc.). Beyond that, unless they're actively poisoning people, it's pretty much caveat emptor.

This is untrue. The only thing the DSHEA did was shift the burden of proof on the safety issue from the manufacturer to the government: that is, people are free to buy a product unless the government proves it unsafe, rather than the reverse. The DSHEA does not allow manufacturers to (a) make false statements about the product's health effects, or (b) misidentify the ingredients in a product. Nor does it immunize a manufacturer from civil liability.

Apparently 6-OXO isn't even very effective.

Nothing that's been legal since 1990 is very effective. Hasn't stopped this from growing into a multibillion-dollar industry.

Nothing that's been legal since 1990 is very effective.

Creatine?

Creatine is effective for its own purposes, but those purposes don't correspond with what a doper is looking for.

Nothing that's been legal since 1990 is very effective. Hasn't stopped this from growing into a multibillion-dollar industry.

That's what I always wonder about. Yeah, all these athletes claim that supplements are effective, but doesn't working out 6 hours a day and having a dietician and cook just as effective?

The DSHEA does not allow manufacturers to (a) make false statements about the product's health effects, or (b) misidentify the ingredients in a product.

This is what I was wondering. Now, the real issue is, since we know that 1) the FDA doesn't monitor these products and 2) over the last 8 years the FDA has gone from slightly inadequate to vastly inadequate, how truthful are labels on these "natural" products?

What Zach said. I also wouldn't characterize it as *very* effective. It'll add 5-10 pounds of water and give you a couple of extra reps before momentary muscular failure, but it's not really going to make you significantly bigger or stronger than your normal physiological limits.

(a) make false statements about the product's health effects,

Is the following a false statement:

"Boosts the immune system"*
and
"Stimulates the bodies NK (natural killer) cells"*

*This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA

This the kind of thing many supplements say (in this case, IP6).

As for dione vs. trione - it's just an extra couple of electrons (reducing an OH to an =O), so I would guess that it has quite similar effects in vivo

Zenbitz: to clarify, they can't make any "medical" claims at all, in the sense of saying that a supplement cures or treats any actual disease. They can make vague touchy-feely statements like the ones you state, if (a) the manufacturer has evidence to support the statements, and (b) they include the disclaimer about the FDA.

As for dione vs. trione - it's just an extra couple of electrons (reducing an OH to an =O), so I would guess that it has quite similar effects in vivo

Nitpick and substantive comments:

Nitpick: -OH to =O is an oxidation, removing two electrons and a proton.

Substantive: I have no idea about their relative efficacy, but seemingly minor changes in structure can have profound effects on activity. For example, in that example, oxidizing an alcohol to a ketone removes a hydrogen bond donor. That could have a huge effect on binding to whatever receptor is important.

What Zach said. I also wouldn't characterize it as *very* effective. It'll add 5-10 pounds of water and give you a couple of extra reps before momentary muscular failure, but it's not really going to make you significantly bigger or stronger than your normal physiological limits.

It's worked well for me...YMMV.

Best Regards

John

Pathetic that I would reverse oxidation and reduction there... Not enough chemistry in my life these days...

but the issue is not binding of dione vs. trione. Either may or may not bind as well (i.e. act as) testosterone in vivo - but that's why they are pro-steriods. The liver has specific enzymes that probably convert dione to ol and I would presume trione as well. Of course, it's all about rates, etc.