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Friday, July 27, 2018

With a Loud Ovation, Baseball Shows Its Whiteness

Let’s pose a counterfactual: Josh Hader is black, and an excavation of his Twitter account reveals that he called whites “crackers,” wrote of his hatred for them and endorsed an organization that engaged in genocidal violence against whites. One of his tweets included a picture of a clenched black fist. That black pitcher had also expressed hatred for gays and made graphic, misogynist statements.

I’m trying to imagine thousands of white fans rising to their feet and giving him a standing ovation, even after he apologizes and blames youthful indiscretion. Or, rather, I’m trying and failing. We know what happened when a few black football players of good character took a knee to protest police violence against black Americans: They were pilloried by the president of the United States and received no standing ovations.

Some are now unemployed.

ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:42 AM | 133 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brewers, racism

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   101. Howie Menckel Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5717212)
Billy Joel was never cool.

can confirm

oh, I met Christie Brinkley once, when she was 50.

I had previously met a number of middle-aged celebrities who looked like freaks in real life.
David Hasselhoff was one, and pre-accident Christopher Reeve was another.

basically the surgeries to their faces (pre-HD) were designed to make them look best on the TV or movie screen, so who cares about real life?

but Christie?
I don't have any expertise in that world, of course - but she looked like she just walked off a SI swimsuit shoot 20 years earlier.
   102. Omineca Greg Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5717218)
The Hassles were kind of cool in a sub-The Rascals sort of way.

I dunno. Two versions of the same song, one the original, one the cover by The Hassles.

Little Willie John

The Hassles

Honestly, if you prefer The Hassles version, I think you're weird.

Attila were kind of cool, but only because they spent all their time in a meat locker.
   103. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5717244)
I don't have any expertise in that world, of course - but she looked like she just walked off a SI swimsuit shoot 20 years earlier.


I saw Madonna and Sharon Stone about 10 minutes apart on South Beach in the mid-90s. Madonna looked entirely unremarkable but Stone looked...she looked like a movie star. I don't get star struck by beautiful women but she was stunning.
   104. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:24 AM (#5717273)
For the record, yes 17-18 is young and immature, and more importantly often times at an age you haven't been exposed much outside your comfortable little world.

I don't know the specifics of Hader, but it's not hard to imagine that a white baseball player future pro-prospect is probably a guy who came from a relatively affluent family and was probably not exposed a lot to minorities other than as a teammate he sees on a travelling league or as the opposition. His bb-ref page lists Old Mills high school in Millersville Maryland. It doesn't really seem a place that you would expect a lot of natural racial integration. Since then he's spent five years in the minors, probably exposed to a lot more than he has ever seen in his life, those tweets was from 1/4 of his life in the past. I can see why people are willing to forgive him, if he makes the correct comments, or at least attempts to make the correct comments and stumbles a bit, because he's still only 24 years old, and probably not the most media savvy person on the planet.
   105. cardsfanboy Posted: July 28, 2018 at 01:26 AM (#5717274)
Billy Joel was never cool.


Billy Joel was always cool. You land yourself a Christie Brinkley, then you can talk smack about Billie Joel. Now Billy Joe was never cool, but who the heck listens to Green Day to be cool.
   106. Lassus Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5717294)
Billy Joel may never have been cool, but I will stand up for him as having been a talented songwriter and performer for a certain time and place, all of which moved on without him.

Christie Brinkley of course has fucking nothing to do with anything regarding the assessment of Billy Joel.
   107. Tony S Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:15 AM (#5717295)
I think most of the media, as usual, is missing the bigger picture.

Yes, Hader said some stupid, racist things when he was younger. It appears that he has outgrown them. Good for him. It's unproductive to pile on him for juvenile mistakes that he seems to have moved beyond.

But that sidesteps the question: WHY did Josh Hader, a half-century after the civil rights movement gained traction, develop racist viewpoints and attitudes like these to begin with? Where did he pick this stuff up in a supposedly "post-racial" America? What kind of toxicity existed in the culture he grew up in? He didn't acquire these feelings in a vacuum.

Until we explore, answer, and resolve THOSE questions, this story (and worse ones) will continue to be repeated.
   108. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5717301)
I don't know the specifics of Hader, but it's not hard to imagine that a white baseball player future pro-prospect is probably a guy who came from a relatively affluent family and was probably not exposed a lot to minorities other than as a teammate he sees on a travelling league or as the opposition. His bb-ref page lists Old Mills high school in Millersville Maryland. It doesn't really seem a place that you would expect a lot of natural racial integration.

FTR, the current student body at Old Mill High School is 55% minority, the majority of which are black. I doubt if that's changed all that significantly in the past 6 years.
   109. -- Posted: July 28, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5717303)
Given the vileness and frequency of the tweets, and his age (17 is hardly "young" as these things go), it's hard to see why Hader is getting the pass he's getting. As one baseball comp, his tweets were far worse than anything John Rocker said. Whatever one things of established precedent, Hader's treatment seems contrary to it.
   110. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 28, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5717313)
Given the vileness and frequency of the tweets, and his age (17 is hardly "young" as these things go), it's hard to see why Hader is getting the pass he's getting. As one baseball comp, his tweets were far worse than anything John Rocker said. Whatever one things of established precedent, Hader's treatment seems contrary to it.
They aren't remotely comparable. Rocker was 25 and already an established major leaguer when he said them, and he said them not to his buddies but to the public via a member of the sports media. It's actually not at all hard to see why people would think it unfair to troll through things people said years ago among their friends¹ to find bad things to gotcha them with. (I mean, obviously you understand how awful it would be for you if people knew what you said, which is why you hide behind pseudonyms.)



¹Unfortunately, many people (not just 17-year olds) are too dumb to understand that saying things online is automatically saying them publicly, even if few people are listening at the time they post them.
   111. Hysterical & Useless Posted: July 29, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5717675)
The Hassles were kind of cool in a sub-The Rascals sort of way.


A half-century ago I knew a girl who had The Hassles album, pretty sure she played it for me once. So now I know of 3 people who've heard it.
   112. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 29, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5717702)
They aren't remotely comparable. Rocker was 25 and already an established major leaguer when he said them, and he said them not to his buddies but to the public via a member of the sports media.
Not only that, but Hader didn't try to dodge his posts, pretend he was hacked, or blame other people for it. Rocker blamed everyone but himself, and has since spent every moment of his life since that Pearlman interview proving that he's every bit as despicable as he seemed. Hader hasn't gotten a total pass — fans in SF proved that, and fans elsewhere will undoubtedly will as well — but he should certainly be allowed the room to prove that he's not a dumb little boy anymore.
   113. Srul Itza At Home Posted: July 29, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5717767)
From the article
A 17-year-old can drive or serve in the military, and is a year away from voting. That does not describe a child.


No, it is not a child. It is a moron with adult functioning capabilities.

18-21 is normal college age. I think back to how "adult" most of the guys -- me included -- acted.


Not pretty.
   114. Srul Itza At Home Posted: July 29, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5717768)
Tweeting isn't "thinking." It's an act.
No, it's speech.


In the same way that walking up to a five-year old and going "pull my finger" is speech, yeah, I guess so
   115. cardsfanboy Posted: July 29, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5717770)
No, it is not a child. It is a moron with adult functioning capabilities.

18-21 is normal college age. I think back to how "adult" most of the guys -- me included -- acted.


Not pretty.


Bingo... agree completely. That was a better way of presenting my point than I did.
   116. Srul Itza At Home Posted: July 29, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5717773)
Hader hasn't gotten a total pass — fans in SF proved that, and fans elsewhere will undoubtedly will as well


You give people an excuse to really jump on an opposing team player, and especially a good one, and they will grab it with gusto. Hader could be the nicest, most woke, least racist man in MLB, and he is still going to get this treatment from opposing fans for the rest of career.

That's just the way it works.
   117. dlf Posted: July 29, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5717779)
And add Sean Newcombe to the list of teenagers who say homophobic things and use offensive racially charge language. And of course it comes out on the day that he comes within one strike of a no-hitter. Like Hader, he immediately acknowledged it and apologized. I'm guessing that if we were to dig, there would be an unfortunately large number of teenagers saying stupid things, including bigoted stupidity. Most of us grow out of it that version of stupidity. Here's hoping Newcombe has.
   118. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: July 29, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5717795)
Newcomb deserves some extra stupid points for this happening so recently *after* the Hader incident. His representation, too; how was every agent for every MLB player not checking all their clients' old tweets?
   119. SoSH U at work Posted: July 29, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5717797)
how was every agent for every MLB player not checking all their clients' old tweets?


Seriously. Even before the Hader story, but certainly after, every agent should have been asking, "Hey, you got any old social media posts you wouldn't want the world to see now?"
   120. Howie Menckel Posted: July 29, 2018 at 10:08 PM (#5717803)

Chelsea Janes
‏Verified account @chelsea_janes

A few of Trea Turner’s tweets from 2011 and 2012 resurfaced today. They include racially insensitive language and homophobic slurs. The Nationals are aware of this, and are gathering information.
9:13 PM - 29 Jul 2018
   121. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 29, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5717805)
how was every agent for every MLB player not checking all their clients' old tweets?

Seriously. Even before the Hader story, but certainly after, every agent should have been asking, "Hey, you got any old social media posts you wouldn't want the world to see now?"

Seriously indeed. Why is baseball always reactive rather than proactive when it comes to dealing with racism?
   122. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 30, 2018 at 04:25 AM (#5717843)
Newcomb deserves some extra stupid points for this happening so recently *after* the Hader incident. His representation, too; how was every agent for every MLB player not checking all their clients' old tweets?
And by "every agent for every MLB player," you mean "Every lawyer, agent, manager, or representative for every famous person." (I'm looking at James Gunn's agent, now.)


Seriously. Even before the Hader story, but certainly after, every agent should have been asking, "Hey, you got any old social media posts you wouldn't want the world to see now?"
No; before the Hader (autocorrect insists that it's Vader) story, every agent should've been asking their clients that. Post-Hader, every agent should be hiring interns to review every single tweet personally. You can't rely on your idiot client remembering every tweet made years ago. You need to review them all.
   123. dlf Posted: July 30, 2018 at 05:46 AM (#5717845)
This is a stupid question, but being stupid has never stopped me before: would deleting the tweets have been effective or would it just require a little more effort by those looking for the damaging information? I've assumed that anything I post here or anywhere else on the internet is effectively permanent, but a number of the posts in the thread chastise Newcombe and his agent for not deleting them.
   124. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 30, 2018 at 07:46 AM (#5717855)
You give people an excuse to really jump on an opposing team player, and especially a good one, and they will grab it with gusto. Hader could be the nicest, most woke, least racist man in MLB, and he is still going to get this treatment from opposing fans for the rest of career.


Nobody is going to remember this in a couple of seasons.
   125. Howie Menckel Posted: July 30, 2018 at 09:17 AM (#5717875)
would deleting the tweets have been effective or would it just require a little more effort by those looking for the damaging information?

it's effective as long as no one has already saved them.

major celebrities basically can't rely on deleting tweets even a minute later - anything stupid they say will be instantly saved by countless fans and critics, so the quick deletion is too late (if modestly mitigating, to show that once they thought twice....)

Sean Newcomb is not on that level, of course.
that said, there probably are many pro athletes whose history has now been, well, combed anew for offensive tweets. it's an arms race - factor in the fame level of the client with the offensiveness of the social media posts.
   126. SoSH U at work Posted: July 30, 2018 at 09:47 AM (#5717887)
No; before the Hader (autocorrect insists that it's Vader) story, every agent should've been asking their clients that. Post-Hader, every agent should be hiring interns to review every single tweet personally. You can't rely on your idiot client remembering every tweet made years ago. You need to review them all.


Good point.
   127. flournoy Posted: July 30, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5717917)
WHY did Josh Hader, a half-century after the civil rights movement gained traction, develop racist viewpoints and attitudes like these to begin with? Where did he pick this stuff up in a supposedly "post-racial" America? What kind of toxicity existed in the culture he grew up in? He didn't acquire these feelings in a vacuum.


Were you ever a teenage boy? He said those things because they were offensive, edgy, and socially unacceptable. It's like a middle school kid who uses five curse words per sentence just to be cool.
   128. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 30, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5717921)
I heard he once rapped along with Biggie records and didn't replace the n-word with actually saying "n-word".
   129. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 30, 2018 at 11:04 AM (#5717925)
Were you ever a teenage boy? He said those things because they were offensive, edgy, and socially unacceptable. It's like a middle school kid who uses five curse words per sentence just to be cool.
Oh, FFS. Let's do a little poll.

How many of us here were teenage boys? Raise your hand.

OK, how many of us said some dumb things as a teenager trying to be cool? Keep your hands up, everyone.

Now, how many of us said they hate gay people and openly supported the KKK?

</crickets>
   130. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 30, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5717932)
Now, how many of us said they hate gay people


I did but that's only because they had the bizarre tendency to all segregate themselves on my opposing sports teams.
   131. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 30, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5717938)
Nobody is going to remember this in a couple of seasons. weeks, the mob having moved on with their torches and pitchforks to the next manufactured outrage du jour.
   132. snowles Posted: July 30, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5717951)
Boy, if only your country's people held its highest elected official to the same Twitter standards (and appropriate backlash) as baseball players...
   133. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 30, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5717964)
Boy, if only your country's people held its highest elected official to the same Twitter standards (and appropriate backlash) as baseball players...
Unfortunately it's exactly the same. The people who are fans of the other team boo, but the people who are fans of his team give him standing ovations.
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