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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Saturday, July 31, 2010
Arriba! Clemente underrated? Why…I once had some Mas Portell goop bartossed at me for saying he was overrated!
Roberto Clemente: Almost criminally underrated and had he not died heroically in a plane crash in 1972, he’d be even less remembered. Despite amassing 3,000 hits, doing his best work at the plate in the 1960s when pitchers reigned supreme, and also being an outstanding right fielder, Clemente was not included in recent books I reviewed about the 25 greatest baseball players of all-time and the 20 greatest hitters.
Honus Wagner: In five or ten years, Alex Rodriguez will retire and debate will begin anew if he was the greatest shortstop ever. Some will say his power can’t be ignored, others will say the best is Derek Jeter who caused Rodriguez to shift to third base, and a few self-righteous sportswriters will probably pen columns saying Cal Ripken Jr. was more consistent– which is funny because Wagner lasted longer than any of those men and his .328 lifetime average and 3,420 hits is better too.
Kevin Brown: Fans may remember Brown’s $15 million annual contract from the Dodgers or his prickly personality or his being mentioned in the Mitchell Report after he retired. When Brown hits the Hall of Fame ballot later this year, he may become the best pitcher shunned by voters. If Albert Belle peaked with less than eight percent of the BBWAA vote, I don’t see Brown faring much better, no matter his 211 wins, string of dominance from the late 1990s, or his having one of the best Wins Above Replacement ratings of non-inducted pitchers.
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Also when his AL contemporary, Al Kaline, was every bit as good, maybe a bit better, and is rarely mentioned.
But Wagner and Clemente? What? Wagner is pretty unanimously regarded as the greatest SS of all-time. How could he possibly be any more highly rated than that.
And Clemente? I'm sorry, he's one of the most over-rated of them all. In no way equal to contemporaries Mays, Mantle, Robby, Aaron. His hitting numbers present an accurate picture of his value, it is what it is, unlike the Griches et al whose hitting numbers underestimate his/their value completely.
It is no coincidence that the only 2 historical figures cited here are Pirates. Womack ruined a pretty good article with a dollop of homer-ism on the top.
By who? When MLB had that all-century team, Ripken was the popular choice. If we're talking how over/underrated a player is, the popular choice really matters. The average baseball fan has only a vague idea who Wagner was.
Good list overall. The only thing I'd note is that there's only 2 pre-1970s players on the list - Wagner and Clemente. As such, it more a most underrated players in memory than history.
I disagree. If that were the case then the most underrated would have to be guys like Buck Ewing and Johnny Mize and Bill Dahlen and HR Baker and Ed Delahanty and guys that the popular market has never even heard of. Not to even mention every Negro Leaguer not named Josh or Satchel.
If the author is looking for an underrated HoF Pirate, I suggest he consider Arky Vaughan before Clemente and Wagner.
I see that Gamingboy's made an appearence.
Okay, then here's a better top 10 all-underrated list: Bobby Richardson, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, Ricky Ledee, Charlie Silvera, Elston Howard, Chris Chambliss, Mark Koenig, Roy White, Sparky Lyle and Danny Cater. (Those last two go in as an entry, and only count as one.)
Tom Henke, Sparky Lyle, and Kent Tekulve are the first three that come to mind. Mike Marshall would qualify too, except he's too well remembered, mostly because he won't shut up.
Position players:
C: Ted Simmons
1B: Frank Thomas (A study in under-ratedness as it happens)
2B: Bobby Grich
3B: Stan Hack
SS: Arky Vaughan
LF: Zack Wheat or Harry Heilmann
CF: Sam Crawford
RF: Ross Youngs
and of course the Rearden pick was just plain weird and random
Almost everyone I know and read who knows anything about baseball and the history of baseball thinks Joe DiMaggio was the best all-around player of his time and the fifth best centerfielder of all time and among the top twenty players of all time. I don't see how that is underrating him. Considering his short career, I don't see how he could be appreciated more.
Elston Howard at his best was as good as Bill Dickey at his best probably; he just started late as a catcher (and there's the race thing too), and then because of injuries he quickly fell off the map. It takes a historian or a real serious fan to appreciate that, but real historians and fans interested in bygone eras do. That's the most that can be asked for on behalf of Howard.
Roy White is not Goose Goslin or Sam Crawford, whose excellence was genuinely underrated and whose memory had been forgotten and had to be refurbished. There are tons of players better than Roy White who don't get one-tenth the fanfare White has had ever since Bill James decided to make him briefly the post boy of the underrated ball player. Ever since then, Roy White, for the most part, has gotten his just due.
A really underrated player--a player who is seen as very great but still not great enough: Tris Speaker. You can make a good case for him being the best centerfield of all time. His big misfortune was that he played in a time and in a league when everyone paled in comparison to Cobb. If Spoke had done what he did but in the National League and Honus Wagner had been in the American League, Spoke would be viewed like Wagner, and Wagner underappreciated like Speaker is now. That's what happens when you aim for the top, and the top is a volcano like Cobb (or Ruth or...). History tends to treat everyone else as chaff, unless there are special reasons to remember someone (see Joe Jackson).
I realize this has already been fully addressed here, but I just can't help myself. This is almost criminally insane.
C- Deacon White
1B- Mark McGwire or Johnny Mize
2B- Bobby Grich
SS- Arly Vaughan or Alan Trammell or Bill Dahlen
3B- Ed Williamson
LF- Tim Raines
CF- pass
RF- Sam Crawford
P- Kid Nichols
RP- Dan Quizenberry
Of course, there's a Negro Leaguer who could legitimately get a mention at pretty much every position.
Why not write about people like Fred Luderus and the aforementioned Pete Browning?
1 - he's puerto rican
2 - he died in a plane crash so he got elected right away
3 - he had a great arm
i hardly ever hear anything about his ability to HIT the ball, so i would think that's what the author might could be talking about
honus wagner
wasn't babe ruth
lived in some other century so he really isn't thought of as the greatest SS EVAH (maybe if he was a yankee instead of a
well
whatever he was
red or blue stocking or brownish something)
i would think he is more forgotten than underrated.
same thing with most ballplayers who played before babe ruth and didn't have an award named after them or a movie about them
C- Bill Dickey
1B- Bill Terry
2B- Bobby Doerr
SS- Luis Aparicio
3B- Jimmy Collins or Pie Traynor
LF- Lou Brock
CF- Lloyd Waner
RF- Willie Keeler
P- Take your pick
Sure you can, because there has been 80+ years of history since then.
For pitcher, I'd take the lefty/Righty duo of Koufax and Ryan.
One question I've always had: What did Clemente have that Minnie Minoso didn't, in terms of being a Hispanic icon?
Good question.
Lots of reasons, I suppose. Clemente got the national exposure in the 1960 and (especially) 1971 World Series'. Clemente played far further into the TV era. Clemente, of course, died young and heroically.
But also, there was the distinct difference in their personalities. Both fit a Latino stereotype, but quite different ones: Minoso was jovial, carefree, while Clemente was moody and temperamental. I think it's fair to say that Minoso came across to sportswriters as "safe," a more or less unremarkable personality, while Clemente was often difficult and downright intimidating -- I suspect that had a lot to do with the image of him being created, more and more distinctly in the later phase of his career, as a lofty and noble character.
But the notion that Clemente was all THAT much better a ballplayer than Minoso is just nuts. And while Clemente was legitimately a pioneer as a black Latin in MLB, Minoso predated him in that status by several years. Minoso was the very FIRST black Latin player in MLB, and the very first black Latin star. He unquestionably encountered all kinds of crap, just as Clemente did, but no one ever seems to acknowledge Minoso's profoundly important historic role.
I think the fact that Clemente had never been in the Negro Leagues made him a bit more of a convenient story, representing a new age of players, maybe.
Also the 1960 Pirates.
If you think Clemente is underrated, then you'd have to think Kaline was, too. Duke Snider, Enos Slaughter, Dave Winfield, Dave Parker, Dwight Evans--it just gets too much like a Shriner's Parade. I think most people are using underrated to just mean these players aren't as famous with the contemporary fan and general public as those people think they should be--not at all a real standard of baseball value. In an absolute sense, Dale Murphy and, certainly, Jose Cruz are underrated in that no one talks about them anymore hardly (not all when it comes to Cruz), but, really, why should we--unless we're ready to talk about everyone else like them. That's just to big a culutral imposition. Better, unless you're a specialist, to just forget 'em and ge on with enjoying the present.
In the majors, sure. But that's simply a function of the fact that Clemente spent several years in the majors when he should have been in the minors, and Minoso spent several years in the minors when he should have been in the majors. It isn't an indication of genuine superiority on Clemente's part.
I will agree that factoring everything into it (including league strength, as Andy appropriately points out), Clemente comes out as the better player. But it's by no means a slam dunk, and the huge gulf of difference between them in the minds of most sportswriters (including, obviously, HOF voters) and casual fans -- Clemente considered the near-peer of Aaron and Mays, Minoso considered a popular ever-smiling longtime coach, almost a clown for his late-life cameo in-game appearances under Veeck's ownership, and, oh, yes, I guess he must have been a pretty good ballplayer way back when -- is ludicrous.
I think most people are using underrated to just mean these players aren't as famous with the contemporary fan and general public as those people think they should be--not at all a real standard of baseball value.
Sure, but even given that, the idea that Clemente isn't as famous with the contemporary fan and general public as he should be is laughable.
Those sim scores don't take park or league effects into account, and all they do is add up each guy's career total stats through the given age.
He's not the most similar from ages 27-30. Well, he might be, but that's not what the age similarities mean. It means that from start of career through age 27, Ennis is the most similar. Also from start through age 28, 29, etc, through age 32.
So yeah, Yaz at age 27 hit .326/44/121 and Ennis at age 27 hit .289/20/107. Not very similar at all. But through age 27, Yaz hit .298/139/582 and Ennis .293/150/665.
Also, similarity scores don't take into account league and era differences, so Ennis probably isn't the truly most similar, but he is in the things the tool is measuring.
You could probably tweak it a bit using OPS+ or some similar adjusted value stat, but I wouldn't want to throw out the raw stats. They should be the primary weighting. I mean, Eddie Collins and Ryan Howard have the same exact career OPS+, but 2 more dissimilar players are hard to think of.
Well, no duh. Clemente might make a list of 100 greatest hitters, and certainly would make a list of ten greatest right fielders, but if you're set on the notion that he was a top-25 all-time player, you'll certainly think he's underrated.
Just incidentally, Sean's new fielding leaderboards allow one to ascertain that Clemente played more games in right field than anyone else in major-league history, slightly ahead of Henry Aaron and Mel Ott. (You have to hunt around in the lists a little, because pre-Retrosheet players are not included in the single-position outfield lists, but you can find single-position numbers on their individual pages. Holding the career record for Games Played at any position is a big deal, though it does not by itself make a guy one of the top nine players of all time :)
It is, and Clemente deserves great respect for that.
But, not meant as any ding on Clemente at all, but just to put it in proper context: let's understand why Clemente played more games in RF than either Aaron or Ott. It's because Aaron and Ott had the defensive skill to play other, more difficult positions than RF, and Clemente didn't. Aaron played more than 300 games in CF and 43 at 2B, and Ott played 256 games at 3B and 128 in CF. Clemente played just 63 games in CF, two at 2B, and one at 3B. Very early in his career, Clemente was tried in those positions and found wanting, and thus was almost never deployed anywhere other than RF again.
Clemente was a terrific player, a no-doubt deserving HOFer. But he wasn't remotely in the class of an Aaron or an Ott, who not only delivered far more offensive value, but also more defensive flexibility, while not as much flash.
Just for fun, the current career leaders in Games Played, by position:
C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Eddie Murray
2B Eddie Collins
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Omar Vizquel
LF Barry Bonds
CF Tris Speaker
RF Roberto Clemente
I like Tim Raines, but this really understates the incredible career of Rickey.
For example -- Per BB-REF, Tim Raines is 64.4 WAR; Rickey is 113. What was that line by Bill James -- if you cut Rickey in half, you'd have two Hall of Famers?
Or you might end up with Lou Brock and Bobby Grich, and nobody would be happy.
That's not quite it. If you can throw and run you play CF. If you can throw but not run, you play RF. If you can run but not throw, you play LF. And if you can do neither, you play 1B. In general, LF are faster than RF. The only RF among the top 50 SB leaders is Bobby Bonds, who would have been a CF if he came up with any team but the Giants. While in LF you have Henderson, Raines, Brock, Coleman, Barry Bonds, and Clarke as LF in the top 50. Unless I missed somebody, the next highest ranked RF is Harry Hooper at 89, after a bunch more LF.
I'm fairly certain you'd end up with a dead Rickey Henderson. Not sure how many people would be happy then.
Yes, because RFs are the ones with the stronger arms, and thus generally bigger, bulkier players. RFs generally hit with more power than LFs.
It's in this way that Clemente was such an outlier: he wasn't particularly big or strong (or really all that fast -- those great triples totals he compiled were greatly enhanced by the Forbes Field effect), but just had that sniper's rifle attached to his right shoulder.
Given that he didn't have the range to handle center field, the ideal position for Clemente would have been third base. In the mid-to-late '50s the Pirates kept farting around with Frank Thomas at third, and I've always thought that they would have been far better off giving Clemente the serious trial there.
Stan Musial ("Wasn't he a white guy who played in St. Louis?")
Honus Wagner ("Wait, I thought his name was Rogers Hornsby!")
Arky Vaughan ("Who?")
Lefty Grove ("Not as good as Koufax, Spahn, or Randy Johnson")
He'd better watch his hand; those ballots are bone-shattering.
Well, third base does require a few more attributes than a rifle arm. It is possible he could have played there; it is possible he did not have the other attributes you want in a third baseman -- very fast reaction times to the ball, the ability to charge bunts, the ability to either bare hand it or make the quick transfer from glove to hand -- that you want in an ideal third baseman. It's not for everyone.
I sometimes think people understate the skills needed to play it well and stick there, and that this is part of the reason why third sackers fare so poorly in HOF voting.
Minnie Minoso was honored by the Baseball Reliquary, who weren't concerned with the subtleties of Steve's player analysis but clearly understood his historical/cultural significance.
It is hard to see how Clemente can be underrated, given the late-blooming nature of his career. Clemente's hitting, expressed simply via "batting runs," was 35th best all time per a prorated 600 PA/yr for players aged 30 onwards (minimum of 2500 PAs for the 30+ career segment).
Minoso, BTW, ranks 85th on that list. While Minnie was clearly the better player in his 20s, Clemente leaves him in the dust from age 30 on. Minnie's last 140+ OPS season was age 31: he had four such seasons in his career. Clemente had eight, with six of them occurring at age 30+.
What is underrated (or, more accurately, forgotten) is Clemente's style of offensive play. Yes, it was assisted by Forbes Field, but we need more ballparks like Forbes, not less. We need the variety of offensive production that parks like it can promote, so that superstars don't have to hit 30-40+ HRs to be superstars.
If any of that idea was swimming around in Womack's all-too-glib peroration, then I would agree: the image of Clemente as a viable superstar is forgotten, underrated, marginalized.
Position data confirms that LF are faster than RF, if you believe SB totals on their own are accurate indicators. However, CFers steal far more bases compared to LF than the difference between LF and RF. RF hit about one homer and one double more per season per position slot.
I sometimes think people understate the skills needed to play it well and stick there, and that this is part of the reason why third sackers fare so poorly in HOF voting.
No disagreement whatsoever.
I have a more elaborated theory as to why there are so few third basemen in the Hall of Fame.
Sure, but even taking full advantage of what Forbes allowed him, in his day Clemente wasn't nearly as valuable as more powerful superstars such as Mays, Aaron, Mantle, and Robinson.
He was a marvelously fun player to watch, really electric in his intensity and his combination of all-out effort and athletic gracefulness.
I don't think it's possible for anyone who wins 4 batting titles and 12 GG to be underrated.
I'm sorry, but Clemente was, and still is, the Derek Jeter of his day. A fine, fine ballplayer, a worthy HOFer, but nowhere near as great as he's made out to be.
1b: Joe Adcock
2b: Dick McAuliffe
Ss: Jose Valentine. Seriously.
3b: I am tempted to say Eddie because who mentions him now? But Ron Cey will do
C: Sherm Lollar
Lf: Bob Nieman
Cf: Jimmy Wynn
Rf: JD Drew
That was a great series of articles. It is interesting that in 2005, you had Sheffield pegged as a very probably HOFer, with Chipper's status up in the air.
Now, Chipper is probably a lock, while Gary may have a hard time getting in, for a variety of reasons.
I know. Chipper is such an obvious HOF player I wonder about those who wonder
Infurtiating is more appropriate
I think it relates to a complete lack of confidence in the sanity of the BBWAA.
Dunno. Early experiments with Charlie Bennett didn't turn out too well.
? If you did a poll for the best SS of all time, Ripken, Banks, Ozzie and Jeter would all beat Wagner. I would not be 100% shocked if Vizquel beat him.
? If you did a poll for the best Pirate of all time, Clemente would win (even if you polled Pirate fans).
? If you did a poll for the top 10 (or 2!) players of all time, Wagner would get statistically insignificant votes.
To me, anyway, it's clear that these are all much greater misunderstandings than thinking Ted Simmons was a good player rather than a borderline HOFer.
The only Wagner isn't the most underrated (non-Negro League) player is if you mean underrated by sabermetricians. But golly, that's meta.
(BTW, rather than just saying "of course Negro Leaguers are all underrated too", let's at least mention the names Oscar Charleston, Pop Lloyd and Smokey Joe Williams.)
I think I condensed my (i.e. James's) point too much. Left fielders, historically, include a range of guys who are both faster and slower than any right fielders: Henderson and Barry Bonds and Brock, sure, but also Greg Luzinski and the older Manny Ramirez. Right fielders have to be mobile enough to get to doubles and keep them from becoming triples; they can't do that on arm strength alone.
Clemente was not slow, but he was no Bill Virdon out there, and he wasn't going to oust many major-league CFs from their jobs, for that matter.
Nice.
The easiest way is to use the context neutral stats as the database for the similarity scores. Sean has told me he'll get to this, but (understandably) he does have lots of other stuff to get to as well.
I think part of the problem is that the article is inconsistent. Including Wagner was a good call, but the article largely sticks to more recent players after that point.
Funny how the Pirates have not one, but two ridiculously underrated HOF shortstops. Both are among the top 5 ever (one is pretty obviously #1), and neither one would ever be named by most fans. And honestly, the only REAL reason most casual fans of baseball know Honus Wagner's name is because of that famous baseball card.
But, then, who knows what the writer has in mind. He seems to change what he means by "underrated" from item to item.
Agreed.
Citizen Kane (or Lawrence of Arabia, or whatever) would probably do just as poorly in hypothetical polls as Clemente would. But I certainly don't think we can call it underrated.
To be fair it was in a Puerto Rican neighborhood.
Yeah, and I hear they used to have John Rocker statues all over Forsyth County, Georgia, until they saw pictures of his new arm candy.
Echoing Lou's comment: It was at the time the center of a very large Puerto Rican neighborhood in Chicago. It was renamed Clemente High School in 1974...I'd hazard a guess that he was the most famous Puerto Rican ever at that time. Whereas Rocker? There's many more famous crackers than him.
Well, at least they won it all once, unlike the 1960s Giants.
I think there must have been something lacking in the front office or on-field management. Probably both. Sometimes to win you need to be resourceful to win, and the Braves usually came up short in that regard. The only year they really had a good bench was 1957, where Hurricane Hazle and Nippy Jones did some timely things. Fred Haney was nothing special as a manager, witness his moronic decision to start Spahn on two days' rest in 1958 WS Game 6, and his inability to find a replacement for Schoendienst in 1959. Yet when they fired Haney, they just replaced him with a bunch of retreads. Going back further, you can compare how patient the Dodgers were with Koufax to Johnny Antonelli, who was traded just when he started to get good.
The underrated team is probably those Dodgers, who were much more than just Koufax. The 59-63-65 championships are quite underrated.
Rk Player WAR WHIP ERA+ SV G IP From To1 Mariano Rivera 52.0 1.000 206 547 955 1127.2 1995 2010
2 Hoyt Wilhelm 41.3 1.125 147 227 1070 2254.1 1952 1972 H
3 Rich Gossage 40.0 1.232 126 310 1002 1809.1 1972 1994 H
4 Trevor Hoffman 30.7 1.056 141 596 1019 1075.0 1993 2010
5 Lee Smith 30.3 1.256 132 478 1022 1289.1 1980 1997
6 Billy Wagner 28.7 1.004 185 409 827 877.1 1995 2010
7 John Hiller 28.2 1.268 134 125 545 1242.0 1965 1980
8 John Franco 25.8 1.333 138 424 1119 1245.2 1984 2005
9 Bruce Sutter 25.0 1.140 136 300 661 1042.0 1976 1988 H
10 Kent Tekulve 24.8 1.250 132 184 1050 1436.2 1974 1989
11 Rollie Fingers 24.4 1.156 120 341 944 1701.1 1968 1985 H
12 Dan Quisenberry 24.3 1.175 147 244 674 1043.1 1979 1990
13 Lindy McDaniel 23.4 1.272 110 172 987 2139.1 1955 1975
14 Tom Henke 23.1 1.092 157 311 642 789.2 1982 1995
15 Stu Miller 22.6 1.253 115 154 704 1693.1 1952 1968
16 Joe Nathan 22.1 1.107 159 247 533 685.0 1999 2009
quality war or fangraphs war?
The last two of those, yeah, I'd agree, but that 1959 team won all of 88 games (82-74 Pythag), and that's counting the two they won in a playoff. And they beat a nothing White Sox team in the World Series, in what must have been the best matchup of Hitless Wonders teams since the 1906 White Sox played their last intrasquad game: The Dodgers OPS+ was 88, and the White Sox OPS+ was 91. The two teams combined had a total of 7 position player starters with OPS+ numbers in triple digits.
No one who gets into the HOF on a special vote created just for him can be considered underrated. Underrated is RON SANTO, who can't get into the HOF despite having a HOF career.
Overrated is Catfish Hunter who many thought was a great pitcher, was an easy HOF choice but whose numbers don't stack up well against numerous non-HOFers.
And I can not let an overrated discussion go by without mentioning Joe Namath, the most overrated player in sports history.
But they won.
The Yankees fell apart that year, so it was wide open. Reallly, the Braves or Giants should have won the National League. The Braves couldn't find a second baseman after Schoendienst went down, and Rigney burned out the Giant pitching staff. The White Sox got the gift of not only playing a weaker team in the Series, but one whose pitching staff was strapped from the playoff. Yet they couldn't take advantage. I have to give credit to the Dodgers for persevering where others falter. That's what great organizations do.
Dwayne Murphy is, of course, underrated. Really, though, I think a lot of great defensive players, especially in the outfield, are probably underrated. Devon White, Garry Maddox, Dom Dimaggio and guys like that. Also, I think great Negro League players who played in that no man's land of the onset of integration have been historically underrated. I'd agree that there is no way in hell Clemente is underrated as a player.
I took a shot at it a few years ago. I like the concept, but there's a lot of room for improvement over James's method.
Ah, someone under 40 checks in.
I was recently talking to a writer who covered "Super Bowl I" in 1967 - well, it wasn't even called the Super Bowl yet.
He said the fans of the NFL and the AFL didn't really care for the game. Said it was sad to see scalpers desperately trying to move tickets in the parking lot - for face value! - the day of the game.
Basically, the NFL wasn't the NFL yet, in the public eye.
Then Namath takes the stage in Super Bowl III, and all hell breaks loose.
I can remember photos of Namath in his long fur coat walking into nightclubs being on the back pages of the NYC tabloids, tomcatting around and luring all comers into his world.
But stick with the raw stats, the true measure of "fame."
lol
The new fans didn't stop following the sport in the 1970s because Namath's knees didn't hold up...
True, but only to the extent that the casual barfly would have no memory of QB's like Bart Starr (Mr. Underrated) or Johnny Unitas (rated about right, but largely forgotten), and likely thinks that an average game for Namath consisted of a TD every possession and an orgy during every timeout.
But there was a pretty good discussion of Namath in another thread a few weeks back, and Flynn put up this counter-argument from FB-Ref:
Joe Namath Is A Legitimate Hall of Fame Quarterback
-----------------------------------
But [the 59 Dodgers] won.
Sure, but I thought this was about "underrated" teams. That 59 team is only "underrated" because they were maybe the worst World Series winner in history, including the Twins and the Dodgers from the late 80's. It's hard to "underrate" a team with a collective 88 OPS+.
Doesn't mean that you can't admire their perseverance, and since the enemy of my enemy is sometimes my friend, I was rooting for them against those ####### little fleas from Chicago. But that was arguably the worst World Series matchup in history, and you're much better off trying to make a case for the infinitely superior 63 and 65 LA teams. Those two really are underrated.
Wagner played one hundred years ago. There is little audio, less video, and there are no more witnesses. There is no heroic moment, no defining milestone.* There is only his reputation (inscribed by many, but many years ago), his career stats, and some staged b&w photos. And he is still considered the best of all-time. Does this blogger's list of all-time underrated hockey players include Wayne Gretzky? If you think Honus Wagner is underrated, how do you not also list Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds?
Santo sighting, post 38. I'm not a Santo guy, but I expected it earlier, when I didn't see him in the original.
Dave Steib.
Frank Thomas.
Tim Raines.
Dave Parker.
Albert Belle.
Matt Williams.
Barry Larkin.
and Bill Freehan.
I agree that the whole idea of a HOF'er being underrated in a bit wonky, but for a sec I will roll with the author's theme and throw Goose Gossage into the ring. He eventually made it, and went in the front door with a BBWAA vote, but year after year I lamented "what is wrong with these guys, how are they not voting for Gossage, were they not watching?"
* EDIT:[Well, I guess Wagner does have 3000+ hits, and leads all SS in hits, so those are milestones. But I meant that he never lead all of baseball in a category. Certain players, you hear their name, and you instantly think of their defining milestone or big stat. When you hear "Honus Wagner" you don't, you just think "best SS"]
When he retired, Honus had more PA, AB, Hits, Runs, and stolen bases (modern stolen base rules) than any player that had come before him. He also had the 2nd most 2b, 3b and rbi all-time.
Here's a question: was Gene Tenace more underrated when he was a player, or now? It's a twist on the affair. Maybe if they had made him an all-star more than once in his career, he would have a better rep today?
Also, Tenace spent as much time at catcher as he did at 1B. I don't know the answer, because I'm ignorant, but I'll ask the question: was he playing so much 1B because he was putrid behind the plate, or was it a manager who believed strictly in resting/rotating his catchers?
Tenace had 400 PA in only eight seasons. Again, was he underrated then, or is he more underrated now?
Ah, now, the fun really begins.
I have lists of the greatest athletes and also of iconic athletes. They are definitely 2 different lists. Namath makes the iconic list. Jackie Robinson makes the iconic list, right at the top. Joe DiMaggio is top 10 iconic, barely top 100 for "the best." Arnold Palmer to me is more iconic but not better than Nicklaus. Billie Jean King: Iconic, not so great. Borg, iconic. Koufax, iconic. You get the idea.
Any athlete who is truly iconic is probably overrated, well, with obvious exceptions (Babe Ruth).
Iconic Athletes
1. Babe Ruth
2. Jackie Robinson
3. Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Muhummad Ali
4. Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
5. Jim Thorpe
6. Jesse owens
7. Red Grange
Bronko Nagurski
8. Josh Gibson
Satchel Paige
9. Arnold Palmer
Tiger Woods
10. Lou Gehrig
11. Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12. Wayne Gretzky \
13. Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
14. Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
16. John L. Sullivan
James J. Corbett
James J. Jeffries
17. Joe Montana
18. Sonia Henie
Babe Didrikson Zaharias
19. Johnny Unitas
Joe Namath
20. Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Thanks for the technical correction. I failed to say that "in my lifetime" Honus Wagner never lead baseball in any major milestone or stat, except related to SS position. I wasn't there to see the fanfare in 1918 as he retired as the leader in everything, please post pix if you have them. If no pix, I'll take it as further evidence to my original point: Wagner played long, long ago, and is still considered the best.
He was probably correctly rated in his own day, but slightly for the wrong reasons: that one fluky Series made him a high-profile player, and his record went on to merit the high profile. But without those four home runs, he might have been one of those semi-visible types, like Bob Bailey or somebody, a guy you'd look back on now and be surprised at how valuable he was.
The only serious quarrel I'd have with anything there is that I think you're underestimating Dempsey's iconic status by quite a bit, a status that thanks to his landmark Times Square restaurant lasted right up to his death.
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