Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, April 16, 2012

Womack: The BPP All-Time Dream Project

As Graham points out…“I had an illustrator work on the project, and I got submissions from an All Star team of writers including Craig Calcaterra, Josh Wilker, and Dan Szymborski.”

Over the past two months, I conducted a project having people vote on nine-player all-time dream teams. The idea was for voters to pick a team to win a one-off, sandlot game, the ultimate cosmic playoff. This wasn’t about a 25-man roster or designated hitters or relievers, just finding nine players to win a game. I received more than 600 votes in all from a mix of baseball figures, fellow writers, and others.

LF – Ted Williams, by Josh Wilker, author of Cardboard Gods and the related blog

No one has ever loved anything more than Ted Williams loved hitting. Think of him in the light of that love. Forget the other stuff, the other versions of Ted Williams, the severed head on ice, the beloved golf-cart elder centering a teary moment at the All-Star Game, the world-class fly-fisherman in the wilderness, the thickening yet still sublimely effective superstar in the twilight of his career, the fighter pilot landing a flaming jet, the fierce embattled inflexible prodigy in his prime. Think of him young, slouching in the on-deck circle, bat on his shoulders, nothing but skin and bones and hunger and genius. He’s waiting for his chance to step into the box. We’ve all had that chance, loved that chance. But has anyone loved it more?

No one was harder to get out: he is the all-time leader in on-base percentage. Additionally, he is second only to Babe Ruth in smashing the daylights out of the ball (i.e., slugging percentage). Which slight advantage by either player would suggest superior effectiveness as a hitter? A distillate stat that pulls in data from other statistics, offensive win percentage (the statistic measures, according to Baseball-Reference.com, “the percentage of games a team with nine of this player batting would win”), suggests the players were essentially identical in their near-perfect potency as hitters:

Babe Ruth     .848
Ted Williams .847

The hundredth of a percentage point that separates these two (who tower over everyone else on the list) seems negligible, placing the legends in a virtual tie. Factor into that tie the years Williams lost in his prime serving in the military.

Now, imagine his turn has come. The hungry bone-thin genius walks toward the plate. Think of the unmatched ferocity of his love. No one ever made more of his turn at bat.

Repoz Posted: April 16, 2012 at 01:24 PM | 11 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Bob Evans Posted: April 16, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4107962)
Those drawings were...odd.

Had to agree with Creamer, too.
   2. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 16, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4108051)
Les Nessman finished in a tie with Winfield, Canseco, and Paul Waner for RF.
   3. bjhanke Posted: April 17, 2012 at 04:15 AM (#4108641)
The final list makes sense. Most of the voting makes sense. The best position players who didn't get votes were Buck Ewing, Billy Hamilton, and George Davis, probably in that order. But look at them and at Kid Nichols, the best pitcher to not get any votes. Who are they? A bunch of 19th century guys. Anyone who remembers them will also remember Bench, Mays, Wagner, and Johnson. I can't blame the electorate for that. - Brock Hanke
   4. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 17, 2012 at 07:30 AM (#4108658)
Honest question Brock - do you really believe that Buck Ewing or Billy Hamilton would be stars in today's game if they arrived in a time machine from 1890? I think they would be marginal major league players, at best. I voted in this, and I thought about choosing Gehrig at 1B, but I ended up choosing Pujols simply because of the timeline adjustment. I did vote for W. Johnson, Ruth and Williams, because I think their dominance was too great to overlook, but to me, with everything else being equal, a 180 OPS+ from 100 years ago might be equivalent to 150 or so today.
   5. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 17, 2012 at 07:38 AM (#4108665)
As someone who values all-around skills over one dimensional players, I wouldn't pick Williams over Bonds or Hornsby over Morgan. And Bench vs. Gibson is impossible to decide one way or the other, given the lack of Negro League stats. I might have tried to avoid this by confining the choice to Major Leaguers.

But that said, all the choices are eminently defensible. The only one I find a bit sentimental is Brooks Robinson over Brett for the 3B runnerup, along with the low Eddie Mathews vote. The nicest surprise was seeing A-Rod in the runnerup spot at SS, well ahead of Ripken. Given the personalities involved there, that was a bit of a shock, but I was glad to see it.
   6. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: April 17, 2012 at 07:59 AM (#4108670)
The problem with the all-around skills argument for Bonds over Williams is that when Bonds was at his peak as an all-around player, he wasn't nearly as good a hitter as Williams. By the time he emerged from Williams' shadow as a hitter, he couldn't field for #### anymore.

How do you arrange that lineup?

Mays
Williams
Gehrig
Ruth
Hornsby
Wagner
Schmidt
Bench
Johnson
   7. sunnyday2 Posted: April 17, 2012 at 08:18 AM (#4108682)
There is an honest acknowledgement that 8 of the 9 are white.

Kendrick told me people had a tendency to vote for players they knew about or had seen play.


Forget for the moment that no voter saw Walter Johnson or Babe Ruth. But the question is how can any poll of this nature, assuming Kendrick is right, possibly pretend to be an "all-time" project. It is an oxymoron. Polling is guaranteed NOT to bring any semblance of a historical perspective to the project.

o you really believe that Buck Ewing or Billy Hamilton would be stars in today's game if they arrived in a time machine from 1890?


This is also anti-historical, anti "all time" in the extreme. Why not ask how today's players would do if they got into the time machine and traveled back to the 1890s? Why not ask how good Ruth and Gehrig would be if they had had access to today's nutrition, training, medical care, etc. etc? Why not ask how players would compare if they all went to nirvana to play by the same rules? Why not ask how good Josh Gibson and Oscar Charleston would have been if they hadn't lived as second class citizens. Why not ask how good would Bench and Schmidt be if they had been denied access to elite training and competition?

You're setting up today's game as the be all and end all and then finding today's players to be superior on that scale. Well, duh!
   8. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: April 17, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4108716)
The problem with the all-around skills argument for Bonds over Williams is that when Bonds was at his peak as an all-around player, he wasn't nearly as good a hitter as Williams. By the time he emerged from Williams' shadow as a hitter, he couldn't field for #### anymore.


Well, I'll still take Bonds. The young Bonds's peak of 10 WAR in the 90's is more impressive than Williams's peak of 11 WAR in the 40's.
   9. bobm Posted: April 17, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4108750)
Why not ask how today's players would do if they got into the time machine and traveled back to the 1890s? Why not ask how good Ruth and Gehrig would be if they had had access to today's nutrition, training, medical care, etc. etc? Why not ask how players would compare if they all went to nirvana to play by the same rules? Why not ask how good Josh Gibson and Oscar Charleston would have been if they hadn't lived as second class citizens. Why not ask how good would Bench and Schmidt be if they had been denied access to elite training and competition?


Because today is not Thursday. :)

Any player/Any era is a Thursday feature (generally) here that looks at how a player might have done in an era besides his own.


http://baseballpastandpresent.com/category/any-playerany-era/
   10. TDF, situational idiot Posted: April 17, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4108781)
This is also anti-historical, anti "all time" in the extreme. Why not ask how today's players would do if they got into the time machine and traveled back to the 1890s? Why not ask how good Ruth and Gehrig would be if they had had access to today's nutrition, training, medical care, etc. etc? Why not ask how players would compare if they all went to nirvana to play by the same rules? Why not ask how good Josh Gibson and Oscar Charleston would have been if they hadn't lived as second class citizens. Why not ask how good would Bench and Schmidt be if they had been denied access to elite training and competition?
I'm no expert in 19th century baseball, but wasn't it much more of a speed game then? How would guys like Ruth, Williams, or later-day Bonds fare in that environment?

   11. TomH Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4108863)
Mostly, but Brouthers, Connor and Delahanty were stars not of the speedy variety. Sluggers did OK then too.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Sponsor

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'.
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets.

For wholesale prices on baseball gifts and equipment, check these stores out!

Baseball Autograph Signings
Baseball Card Supplies
Baseball Memorabilia
Baseball Collectibles
Baseball Equipment
Baseball Protective Gear

Page rendered in 0.1625 seconds
50 querie(s) executed