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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Friday, September 23, 2011
We can’t find socks that shape to our feet, we’re sick of it. SICK OF IT!
The Baseball Geeks Become Insufferable
...“I’m O.K. until someone starts explaining to me why Bobby Abreu is better than Roberto Clemente,” says the longtime broadcaster and MLB Network host Bob Costas, an early Bill James disciple. “Then I’ve had it.”
Former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent hates speaking out against statistical analysis because it makes him sound like a Luddite, which he swears he isn’t, but he says numbers are often taken out of context.
“I remember sitting at Joe DiMaggio’s funeral and listening to [former Yankee teammate and American League president] Dr. Bobby Brown explain how there were no statistics kept on how many times Joe had stretched a single into a double in the eighth inning or later and then come around to score the winning run, or made a spectacular catch or throw to save a game.
“He said he saw those things and rated Joe at the top because of it. The only numbers he cared about were how many pennants and championships the Yankees won when Joe was in center field. It was brilliant because Bobby was a man of science, a cardiologist who had played with Joe and he was arguing that you can only take the numbers so far.”
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1. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM (#3933858)Something tells me there are statistics to count these things. Or at least Retrosheet is working on them.
Abreu -- 59 WAR
####### sabermetrics!
No he's not. He's arguing that nobody was keeping the numbers.
if you get them drunk, you can take them farther
Bobby Abreu was better than Clemente... through their age 28 seasons.
As Walt implies, I wonder if anyone actually tried to explain this to Bob Costas. The two are fairly close as hitters – Abreu has a slightly higher career slugging percentage and a good bit higher career on-base percentage – so conceivably our strawman stat geek might have to be explaining contextual illusions to Bob Costas to show that Clemente was at least as good as Abreu. Abreu was the better baserunner. So the considerable difference between them comes down to Clemente being the greatest right fielder in the history of the planet, and Abreu not. IOW it seems to me our strawman would be arguing the same thing as any old geezer in a barroom.
Clemente, 621 BB in 10212 PA.
Abreu has 1418 BB in 9654 PA.
That alone doesn't make Abreu better, obviously. But anyone who doesn't take his 'gut instinct' and add context such as that is really just spouting drivel.
I saw Clemente play, and in that era the guy who drew 30 BB was given no less credit than the otherwise-similar offensive player who drew 100 BB. Heck, "hits" was such a popular stat that the heavy-walk guy helped his team more, but hurt the fan perception of him.
.
That has to be the greatest name of a company ever.
if you get them drunk, you can take them farther
"This is the part of the mathematical equation where I kill you."
This world is a trip! I dunno what's goin' on these days...
Bob: I agree. But I think Costas's invocation of Clemente serves a largely rhetorical purpose: Clemente is a sacred cow, the object of great sentimentality. Bob's proclaiming his outrage at the exaggerated conclusions statistical analysis might lead to (Abreu>Clemente! How dare they!) and protecting himself from criticism simultaneously (are you really going to subject Clemente to statistical analysis and argue against popular sentiment?).
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