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Saturday, March 24, 2001

Yahoo! Sports: Major League Baseball - Report: Nomar to Have Surgery

I will spend my weekend sobbing uncontrollably. Nomah is gonna ruin my summahhhhhhhh!!!

The Original Gary Posted: March 24, 2001 at 01:07 AM | 7 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Bruce Markusen Posted: March 24, 2001 at 05:47 PM (#66113)
If Garciaparra misses "only" 10 weeks, then they can survive this year in the American League East and wild card races. They would still have him for July, August, and September, so it would be a matter of staying close while he recuperates. Who do the Red Sox have to play shortstop in the interim? Perhaps Valentin could be switched back to that position, but he's still hurting. Lou Merloni?

Dan Duquette might want to think about acquiring a short-term stopgap, like Pat Meares of the Pirates or Frank Menechino of the A's (principally a second baseman, but one who has played shortstop this spring). Any other potential trade pick-ups?
   2. Bruce Markusen Posted: March 24, 2001 at 05:47 PM (#66373)
If Garciaparra misses "only" 10 weeks, then they can survive this year in the American League East and wild card races. They would still have him for July, August, and September, so it would be a matter of staying close while he recuperates. Who do the Red Sox have to play shortstop in the interim? Perhaps Valentin could be switched back to that position, but he's still hurting. Lou Merloni?

Dan Duquette might want to think about acquiring a short-term stopgap, like Pat Meares of the Pirates or Frank Menechino of the A's (principally a second baseman, but one who has played shortstop this spring). Any other potential trade pick-ups?
   3. Bruce Markusen Posted: March 24, 2001 at 05:47 PM (#66913)
If Garciaparra misses "only" 10 weeks, then they can survive this year in the American League East and wild card races. They would still have him for July, August, and September, so it would be a matter of staying close while he recuperates. Who do the Red Sox have to play shortstop in the interim? Perhaps Valentin could be switched back to that position, but he's still hurting. Lou Merloni?

Dan Duquette might want to think about acquiring a short-term stopgap, like Pat Meares of the Pirates or Frank Menechino of the A's (principally a second baseman, but one who has played shortstop this spring). Any other potential trade pick-ups?
   4. Bruce Markusen Posted: March 24, 2001 at 05:47 PM (#67699)
If Garciaparra misses "only" 10 weeks, then they can survive this year in the American League East and wild card races. They would still have him for July, August, and September, so it would be a matter of staying close while he recuperates. Who do the Red Sox have to play shortstop in the interim? Perhaps Valentin could be switched back to that position, but he's still hurting. Lou Merloni?

Dan Duquette might want to think about acquiring a short-term stopgap, like Pat Meares of the Pirates or Frank Menechino of the A's (principally a second baseman, but one who has played shortstop this spring). Any other potential trade pick-ups?
   5. The Original Gary Posted: March 24, 2001 at 11:36 PM (#66114)
Barring any deal, I think the Sox would go with Craig Grebeck. Even if they make a trade, how much of an upgrade from Grebeck can there be? The Angels are looking for someone to back up Benji Gil for pete's sake.
   6. The Original Gary Posted: March 24, 2001 at 11:36 PM (#66374)
Barring any deal, I think the Sox would go with Craig Grebeck. Even if they make a trade, how much of an upgrade from Grebeck can there be? The Angels are looking for someone to back up Benji Gil for pete's sake.
   7. The Original Gary Posted: March 24, 2001 at 11:36 PM (#66914)
Barring any deal, I think the Sox would go with Craig Grebeck. Even if they make a trade, how much of an upgrade from Grebeck can there be? The Angels are looking for someone to back up Benji Gil for pete's sake.
   8. The Original Gary Posted: March 24, 2001 at 11:36 PM (#67700)
Barring any deal, I think the Sox would go with Craig Grebeck. Even if they make a trade, how much of an upgrade from Grebeck can there be? The Angels are looking for someone to back up Benji Gil for pete's sake.
   9. RichRifkin Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:13 AM (#66115)
Another possible Athletic that the Red Sox might pursue is (former Devil Ray) Miguel Cairo. He, too, is principally a second baseman. However, he could play short stop. Miguel hit extremely well this Spring for the A's. But Cairo lost out to even better performances by Frankie Menechino and Jose Ortiz. I'm not sure how well Jorge Velandia did this Spring for the Mets; but he's another guy the A's had in their system who is a very decent player, perhaps in need of a major league job. Velandia is a very good defensive player; and a guy capable of hitting .260 to .280 with an OBP of .350 to .370 and very little power.

What's most annoying to me about the loss of Nomar is that there are now no teams in the AL East capable of challenging the Yankees. Although New York looks vulnerable, with a thin bullpen and below average or poor hitters at 5 positions - 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, and RF - Boston was really the only team with enough strengths to bypass the Bronx boys in that division. Toronto, having lost Wel
   10. RichRifkin Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:13 AM (#66375)
Another possible Athletic that the Red Sox might pursue is (former Devil Ray) Miguel Cairo. He, too, is principally a second baseman. However, he could play short stop. Miguel hit extremely well this Spring for the A's. But Cairo lost out to even better performances by Frankie Menechino and Jose Ortiz. I'm not sure how well Jorge Velandia did this Spring for the Mets; but he's another guy the A's had in their system who is a very decent player, perhaps in need of a major league job. Velandia is a very good defensive player; and a guy capable of hitting .260 to .280 with an OBP of .350 to .370 and very little power.

What's most annoying to me about the loss of Nomar is that there are now no teams in the AL East capable of challenging the Yankees. Although New York looks vulnerable, with a thin bullpen and below average or poor hitters at 5 positions - 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, and RF - Boston was really the only team with enough strengths to bypass the Bronx boys in that division. Toronto, having lost Wel
   11. RichRifkin Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:13 AM (#66915)
Another possible Athletic that the Red Sox might pursue is (former Devil Ray) Miguel Cairo. He, too, is principally a second baseman. However, he could play short stop. Miguel hit extremely well this Spring for the A's. But Cairo lost out to even better performances by Frankie Menechino and Jose Ortiz. I'm not sure how well Jorge Velandia did this Spring for the Mets; but he's another guy the A's had in their system who is a very decent player, perhaps in need of a major league job. Velandia is a very good defensive player; and a guy capable of hitting .260 to .280 with an OBP of .350 to .370 and very little power.

What's most annoying to me about the loss of Nomar is that there are now no teams in the AL East capable of challenging the Yankees. Although New York looks vulnerable, with a thin bullpen and below average or poor hitters at 5 positions - 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, and RF - Boston was really the only team with enough strengths to bypass the Bronx boys in that division. Toronto, having lost Wel
   12. RichRifkin Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:13 AM (#67701)
Another possible Athletic that the Red Sox might pursue is (former Devil Ray) Miguel Cairo. He, too, is principally a second baseman. However, he could play short stop. Miguel hit extremely well this Spring for the A's. But Cairo lost out to even better performances by Frankie Menechino and Jose Ortiz. I'm not sure how well Jorge Velandia did this Spring for the Mets; but he's another guy the A's had in their system who is a very decent player, perhaps in need of a major league job. Velandia is a very good defensive player; and a guy capable of hitting .260 to .280 with an OBP of .350 to .370 and very little power.

What's most annoying to me about the loss of Nomar is that there are now no teams in the AL East capable of challenging the Yankees. Although New York looks vulnerable, with a thin bullpen and below average or poor hitters at 5 positions - 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, and RF - Boston was really the only team with enough strengths to bypass the Bronx boys in that division. Toronto, having lost Wel
   13. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:41 AM (#66116)
I disagree with Rich that the Sox cannot challenge the Yankees.

I think any team with Pedro, Manny and Carl Everett is certainly capable of winning 90 games. If Nomar comes back in mid-season, expect a tough fight for the AL East.
   14. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:41 AM (#66376)
I disagree with Rich that the Sox cannot challenge the Yankees.

I think any team with Pedro, Manny and Carl Everett is certainly capable of winning 90 games. If Nomar comes back in mid-season, expect a tough fight for the AL East.
   15. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:41 AM (#66916)
I disagree with Rich that the Sox cannot challenge the Yankees.

I think any team with Pedro, Manny and Carl Everett is certainly capable of winning 90 games. If Nomar comes back in mid-season, expect a tough fight for the AL East.
   16. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 07:41 AM (#67702)
I disagree with Rich that the Sox cannot challenge the Yankees.

I think any team with Pedro, Manny and Carl Everett is certainly capable of winning 90 games. If Nomar comes back in mid-season, expect a tough fight for the AL East.
   17. scruff Posted: March 25, 2001 at 06:51 PM (#66117)
Another example of why heavy reliance for offense from the left side of the defensive spectrum (C/SS/2B) can be a tough way to go sometimes. The Mets w/Piazza and Alfonzo, the Yanks w/Jeter and Posada and the Rangers (Pudge/ARod) are also very prone to this type of thing too.

These type of players are valuable as hell, but witness Pudge's injury last year, your plans go up in smoke pretty quick, because guys like this are impossible to replace. You can always trade for a corner power hitter, but if you lose a left-spectrum stud hitter you are SOL. You get Lou Merloni or Craig Grebeck.

For the record, I'd still take everyone of the players I mentioned above (save Grebeck/Merloni :-)), but there's always the "cross your fingers against injury" caveat that scares you to death.
   18. scruff Posted: March 25, 2001 at 06:51 PM (#66377)
Another example of why heavy reliance for offense from the left side of the defensive spectrum (C/SS/2B) can be a tough way to go sometimes. The Mets w/Piazza and Alfonzo, the Yanks w/Jeter and Posada and the Rangers (Pudge/ARod) are also very prone to this type of thing too.

These type of players are valuable as hell, but witness Pudge's injury last year, your plans go up in smoke pretty quick, because guys like this are impossible to replace. You can always trade for a corner power hitter, but if you lose a left-spectrum stud hitter you are SOL. You get Lou Merloni or Craig Grebeck.

For the record, I'd still take everyone of the players I mentioned above (save Grebeck/Merloni :-)), but there's always the "cross your fingers against injury" caveat that scares you to death.
   19. scruff Posted: March 25, 2001 at 06:51 PM (#66917)
Another example of why heavy reliance for offense from the left side of the defensive spectrum (C/SS/2B) can be a tough way to go sometimes. The Mets w/Piazza and Alfonzo, the Yanks w/Jeter and Posada and the Rangers (Pudge/ARod) are also very prone to this type of thing too.

These type of players are valuable as hell, but witness Pudge's injury last year, your plans go up in smoke pretty quick, because guys like this are impossible to replace. You can always trade for a corner power hitter, but if you lose a left-spectrum stud hitter you are SOL. You get Lou Merloni or Craig Grebeck.

For the record, I'd still take everyone of the players I mentioned above (save Grebeck/Merloni :-)), but there's always the "cross your fingers against injury" caveat that scares you to death.
   20. scruff Posted: March 25, 2001 at 06:51 PM (#67703)
Another example of why heavy reliance for offense from the left side of the defensive spectrum (C/SS/2B) can be a tough way to go sometimes. The Mets w/Piazza and Alfonzo, the Yanks w/Jeter and Posada and the Rangers (Pudge/ARod) are also very prone to this type of thing too.

These type of players are valuable as hell, but witness Pudge's injury last year, your plans go up in smoke pretty quick, because guys like this are impossible to replace. You can always trade for a corner power hitter, but if you lose a left-spectrum stud hitter you are SOL. You get Lou Merloni or Craig Grebeck.

For the record, I'd still take everyone of the players I mentioned above (save Grebeck/Merloni :-)), but there's always the "cross your fingers against injury" caveat that scares you to death.
   21. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 08:44 PM (#66118)
Nomar, Value above Replacement, St. Rey.

Allow me to stray off topic a little.

Scruff and I agree on a whole lot. But one minor (or perhaps only implied) disagreement is related to what Scruff quoted Bill James as saying: "You don't hit as a SS, you hit as a hitter."

It's really a question of interpretation. Of course in the literal sense it is true that you hit as a hitter, but the offensive and defensive parts of baseball are intimately connected. The lineup is not composed of 9 hitters, but rather 9 players playing 9 different positions.

That is why I use positional adjustments when evaluating a player's offensive contribution. I try to find the player's value above a replacement level player - not hitter. And in Nomar's case, he's not going to be replaced by a hitter, but by a SS.

The obvious truth is that the more valuable a player is, the more difficult it is to replace him. I want as many of those guys on my team as I can find - ultimately that's what will make my team better than the competition. I state that with one caveat: if a team insists on giving a lot of playing time to a terrible player, the effect will be to negate the contribution of a star player.

This segways into a theme James touched on a long time ago but which most GMs have not come to terms with. In discussing why the Expos circa 1983 underachieved, James pointed out that by playing Doug Flynn you are negating the value of having Tim Raines. How much of Piazza and Alfonso does Rey Ordonez negate ? The Mets' real problem isn't a possible injury to Mike or Edgar, it's the inability to see what a horrible player St. Rey is. Similarly, the Yankees are hurt by not replacing Tino when they have many viable alternatives and the Jays are hurt by not finding a real 2nd baseman.

Rey looks like a good ballplayer but in reality he isn't. That's why baseball numbers are very useful when interpreted properly.

The Mets believe that Rey's defence more than makes up for his bat. As James once said: you pay a price for every falsehood you believe is true (or words to that effect).

My prediction: this year that price for the Mets will be a playoff spot.
   22. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 08:44 PM (#66378)
Nomar, Value above Replacement, St. Rey.

Allow me to stray off topic a little.

Scruff and I agree on a whole lot. But one minor (or perhaps only implied) disagreement is related to what Scruff quoted Bill James as saying: "You don't hit as a SS, you hit as a hitter."

It's really a question of interpretation. Of course in the literal sense it is true that you hit as a hitter, but the offensive and defensive parts of baseball are intimately connected. The lineup is not composed of 9 hitters, but rather 9 players playing 9 different positions.

That is why I use positional adjustments when evaluating a player's offensive contribution. I try to find the player's value above a replacement level player - not hitter. And in Nomar's case, he's not going to be replaced by a hitter, but by a SS.

The obvious truth is that the more valuable a player is, the more difficult it is to replace him. I want as many of those guys on my team as I can find - ultimately that's what will make my team better than the competition. I state that with one caveat: if a team insists on giving a lot of playing time to a terrible player, the effect will be to negate the contribution of a star player.

This segways into a theme James touched on a long time ago but which most GMs have not come to terms with. In discussing why the Expos circa 1983 underachieved, James pointed out that by playing Doug Flynn you are negating the value of having Tim Raines. How much of Piazza and Alfonso does Rey Ordonez negate ? The Mets' real problem isn't a possible injury to Mike or Edgar, it's the inability to see what a horrible player St. Rey is. Similarly, the Yankees are hurt by not replacing Tino when they have many viable alternatives and the Jays are hurt by not finding a real 2nd baseman.

Rey looks like a good ballplayer but in reality he isn't. That's why baseball numbers are very useful when interpreted properly.

The Mets believe that Rey's defence more than makes up for his bat. As James once said: you pay a price for every falsehood you believe is true (or words to that effect).

My prediction: this year that price for the Mets will be a playoff spot.
   23. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 08:44 PM (#66918)
Nomar, Value above Replacement, St. Rey.

Allow me to stray off topic a little.

Scruff and I agree on a whole lot. But one minor (or perhaps only implied) disagreement is related to what Scruff quoted Bill James as saying: "You don't hit as a SS, you hit as a hitter."

It's really a question of interpretation. Of course in the literal sense it is true that you hit as a hitter, but the offensive and defensive parts of baseball are intimately connected. The lineup is not composed of 9 hitters, but rather 9 players playing 9 different positions.

That is why I use positional adjustments when evaluating a player's offensive contribution. I try to find the player's value above a replacement level player - not hitter. And in Nomar's case, he's not going to be replaced by a hitter, but by a SS.

The obvious truth is that the more valuable a player is, the more difficult it is to replace him. I want as many of those guys on my team as I can find - ultimately that's what will make my team better than the competition. I state that with one caveat: if a team insists on giving a lot of playing time to a terrible player, the effect will be to negate the contribution of a star player.

This segways into a theme James touched on a long time ago but which most GMs have not come to terms with. In discussing why the Expos circa 1983 underachieved, James pointed out that by playing Doug Flynn you are negating the value of having Tim Raines. How much of Piazza and Alfonso does Rey Ordonez negate ? The Mets' real problem isn't a possible injury to Mike or Edgar, it's the inability to see what a horrible player St. Rey is. Similarly, the Yankees are hurt by not replacing Tino when they have many viable alternatives and the Jays are hurt by not finding a real 2nd baseman.

Rey looks like a good ballplayer but in reality he isn't. That's why baseball numbers are very useful when interpreted properly.

The Mets believe that Rey's defence more than makes up for his bat. As James once said: you pay a price for every falsehood you believe is true (or words to that effect).

My prediction: this year that price for the Mets will be a playoff spot.
   24. Robert Posted: March 25, 2001 at 08:44 PM (#67704)
Nomar, Value above Replacement, St. Rey.

Allow me to stray off topic a little.

Scruff and I agree on a whole lot. But one minor (or perhaps only implied) disagreement is related to what Scruff quoted Bill James as saying: "You don't hit as a SS, you hit as a hitter."

It's really a question of interpretation. Of course in the literal sense it is true that you hit as a hitter, but the offensive and defensive parts of baseball are intimately connected. The lineup is not composed of 9 hitters, but rather 9 players playing 9 different positions.

That is why I use positional adjustments when evaluating a player's offensive contribution. I try to find the player's value above a replacement level player - not hitter. And in Nomar's case, he's not going to be replaced by a hitter, but by a SS.

The obvious truth is that the more valuable a player is, the more difficult it is to replace him. I want as many of those guys on my team as I can find - ultimately that's what will make my team better than the competition. I state that with one caveat: if a team insists on giving a lot of playing time to a terrible player, the effect will be to negate the contribution of a star player.

This segways into a theme James touched on a long time ago but which most GMs have not come to terms with. In discussing why the Expos circa 1983 underachieved, James pointed out that by playing Doug Flynn you are negating the value of having Tim Raines. How much of Piazza and Alfonso does Rey Ordonez negate ? The Mets' real problem isn't a possible injury to Mike or Edgar, it's the inability to see what a horrible player St. Rey is. Similarly, the Yankees are hurt by not replacing Tino when they have many viable alternatives and the Jays are hurt by not finding a real 2nd baseman.

Rey looks like a good ballplayer but in reality he isn't. That's why baseball numbers are very useful when interpreted properly.

The Mets believe that Rey's defence more than makes up for his bat. As James once said: you pay a price for every falsehood you believe is true (or words to that effect).

My prediction: this year that price for the Mets will be a playoff spot.
   25. scruff Posted: March 26, 2001 at 02:27 AM (#66119)
Robert, I agree with everything you said. I still think you hit as a hitter, but all the other stuff I agree with. The only point I was trying to make was that you run a risk when your best offensive players are on the left side of the spectrum, because of the steep drop off.

I'd take that risk every time.

It's just rough when you are primed for a great year and one of those guys goes down. I do think most of the skill position (is this the NFL?) player's value comes from the ability to allow another player with a good stick that doesn't have the defensive skills into the lineup. So you don't have to play a Doug Flynn/Rey Ordonez. At the same position I don't think the range of defensive value is too much, except for the case of defensive star, vs. a butcher. The difference between a fair defender at one position and a pretty good one AT THE SAME POSITION isn't all that much. If it were, the player would be moved rightward on the spectrum.

I'd never have an Ordonez on my team either, I'll take a marginal fielder with a good stick over the great glove no stick every time.

And I think that Doug Flynn passage is one of the best pieces of writing James has ever laid before us.
   26. scruff Posted: March 26, 2001 at 02:27 AM (#66379)
Robert, I agree with everything you said. I still think you hit as a hitter, but all the other stuff I agree with. The only point I was trying to make was that you run a risk when your best offensive players are on the left side of the spectrum, because of the steep drop off.

I'd take that risk every time.

It's just rough when you are primed for a great year and one of those guys goes down. I do think most of the skill position (is this the NFL?) player's value comes from the ability to allow another player with a good stick that doesn't have the defensive skills into the lineup. So you don't have to play a Doug Flynn/Rey Ordonez. At the same position I don't think the range of defensive value is too much, except for the case of defensive star, vs. a butcher. The difference between a fair defender at one position and a pretty good one AT THE SAME POSITION isn't all that much. If it were, the player would be moved rightward on the spectrum.

I'd never have an Ordonez on my team either, I'll take a marginal fielder with a good stick over the great glove no stick every time.

And I think that Doug Flynn passage is one of the best pieces of writing James has ever laid before us.
   27. scruff Posted: March 26, 2001 at 02:27 AM (#66919)
Robert, I agree with everything you said. I still think you hit as a hitter, but all the other stuff I agree with. The only point I was trying to make was that you run a risk when your best offensive players are on the left side of the spectrum, because of the steep drop off.

I'd take that risk every time.

It's just rough when you are primed for a great year and one of those guys goes down. I do think most of the skill position (is this the NFL?) player's value comes from the ability to allow another player with a good stick that doesn't have the defensive skills into the lineup. So you don't have to play a Doug Flynn/Rey Ordonez. At the same position I don't think the range of defensive value is too much, except for the case of defensive star, vs. a butcher. The difference between a fair defender at one position and a pretty good one AT THE SAME POSITION isn't all that much. If it were, the player would be moved rightward on the spectrum.

I'd never have an Ordonez on my team either, I'll take a marginal fielder with a good stick over the great glove no stick every time.

And I think that Doug Flynn passage is one of the best pieces of writing James has ever laid before us.
   28. scruff Posted: March 26, 2001 at 02:27 AM (#67705)
Robert, I agree with everything you said. I still think you hit as a hitter, but all the other stuff I agree with. The only point I was trying to make was that you run a risk when your best offensive players are on the left side of the spectrum, because of the steep drop off.

I'd take that risk every time.

It's just rough when you are primed for a great year and one of those guys goes down. I do think most of the skill position (is this the NFL?) player's value comes from the ability to allow another player with a good stick that doesn't have the defensive skills into the lineup. So you don't have to play a Doug Flynn/Rey Ordonez. At the same position I don't think the range of defensive value is too much, except for the case of defensive star, vs. a butcher. The difference between a fair defender at one position and a pretty good one AT THE SAME POSITION isn't all that much. If it were, the player would be moved rightward on the spectrum.

I'd never have an Ordonez on my team either, I'll take a marginal fielder with a good stick over the great glove no stick every time.

And I think that Doug Flynn passage is one of the best pieces of writing James has ever laid before us.

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