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Wednesday, May 22, 2002

Yahoo! Sports: MLB - Jeremy Giambi traded to Philadelphia for John Mabry

You have got to be kidding me.  John Mabry!!  I wonder if Giambi shot off his mouth something like when he was with the Royals because this makes no sense.  Giambi may be one-dimensional, but Mabry is practically zero-dimensional.  He isn’t any good at defense either.

Sean Forman Posted: May 22, 2002 at 07:52 PM | 297 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Steve Treder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 07:55 PM (#117956)
OK, I take it back. The A's are panicking. This is ridiculous.
   2. Ken Arneson Posted: May 22, 2002 at 07:56 PM (#117957)
???
   3. Bull Pain Posted: May 22, 2002 at 07:57 PM (#117959)
It's not April 1st is it? I'd rather have Brett Laxton than John Mabry.
   4. Jay Jaffe Posted: May 22, 2002 at 07:58 PM (#117961)
Man, that just seriously screwed my fantasy team.

Seriously, this looks like the biggest white-flag trade I've seen since the White Sox White Flag trades of '97. John Mabry couldn't carry Ron Coomer's jock, let alone a Giambi's.

So much for Billy Beane, Genius. Hell, at least pretend you're thinking of the future of the team and get yourself a AA pitching prospect. Absolutely baffling...
   5. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:00 PM (#117962)
So it turns out JP really was the brains behind the organization. I do not get this at all. The other moves the A's made yesterday were questionable (at least the sending down of Pena was), but this makes me think I've just gone to Bizarro World. I bet Mabry gets released within a week, too, because they have no use for him. Not that any team should.
   6. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:00 PM (#117963)
Unbelievable... is there a single way that Mabry is better than Giambi? Is there a single stat...? I guess Mabry is 6/16 stealing and Jeremy is 0/2.

"We're not looking to do anything drastic."

Does this not qualify as drastic? Mabry has never had an OBP above Giambi's career OBP. Did Jeremy kill a member of Billy Beane's family? And even if he did, is this the best he could get? Does anyone know the payrolls involved here?

As a Mariner fan, I think it is now proper to devote my attention to the Angels.
   7. DTS Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:02 PM (#117967)
Is that an article from The Onion?
   8. RichRifkin Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:07 PM (#117973)
What's strangest of all is that Lord Beane is trading away a 27 year old player, Giambi, who just last year had by far his best big league campaign for a 31 year old, Mabry, who at his very best a few years ago was significantly worse than Mini G was before he figured things out in 2001. And Mabry has been in decline for a couple of years.

On top of that, the A's likely will have to stick with Esteban German as their leadoff hitter, now that Jeremy is a Philly and Menechino is a River Cat.

I would have thought that if Beane wanted to move Giambi, he might have traded him for someone who was a capable defensive centerfielder. I'm no expert on Mabry's multi-position defensive skills, but I'm pretty sure Mabry's not a big upgrade in the field over Jeremy.

This season just keeps getting worse...
   9. eric Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:07 PM (#117975)
Regardless of why they decided to dump Giambi, i just can't believe they couldn't have gotten ANYTHING better for him. I can think of a bunch of teams that could afford to give a real prospect or a better UT Infielder to have giambi as a 4th OF/DH/1B.
   10. Steve Treder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:07 PM (#117977)
Maybe Jeremy did whatever terrible off-the-field thing it was Bobby Estalella did last year ...
   11. Christopher Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:08 PM (#117979)
This sounds like it has nothing to do with baseball at all. Didn't Giambi get busted for pot around Christmas time?
   12. Andere Richtingen Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:08 PM (#117980)
Brian - It would have received more responses if it had been about Jeremy Giambi being gay.

Anyway, this is like Einstein espousing a geocentric universe or something. Why is it that even the best baseball executives occasionally make a deal like this, suggesting that they have no idea what they're doing? John Mabry?
   13. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:09 PM (#117981)
Jeremy would sure have helped the Braves 1st base problems.
   14. Sharkbyte Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:12 PM (#117984)
Upon further reflection, a couple of possible explanations...

(1) The Willie Mays hanging-curveball theory - making a bad deal now in hopes that other GMs then won't be reluctant to make deals with him in the future. (But then why would you make such a deal involving someone as important to the team as Giambi?)

(2) Beane's planning a comeback as a player, and wants to make sure there aren't more than two OFs on the team better than himself. If that's the goal, this deal was a good start.
   15. Steve Treder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:12 PM (#117986)
"Jeremy would sure have helped the Braves 1st base problems."

There's a gazillion teams Jeremy would have helped. I bet Beane's got a whole bunch of messages in his voicemail box right now from other GMs, saying, "Billy ... you should have given me a CHANCE!"
   16. Darren Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:13 PM (#117988)
I'm with Christopher. Maybe it's a drug thing.

Or maybe Colorado wants Mabry for Cust?

Could it be that this is one of those trades that at first you just hear the principles then later hear there were other "lesser" players involved, like Marlon Byrd and Brett Myers?

I'm dumbfounded.
   17. Andere Richtingen Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:14 PM (#117989)
The Cubs could use Giambi. He's worth one of their lesser pitching prospects, I'd say.

How much do the A's save in salary? 500K?
   18. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:14 PM (#117991)
I bet Beane's got a whole bunch of messages in his voicemail box right now from other GMs, saying, "Billy ... you should have given me a CHANCE!"

I bet his phone's still ringing off the hook... If I'm Pat Gillick, I'm calling him right now offering Paul Abbott for Barry Zito.
   19. DTS Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:15 PM (#117994)
I hurt for A's fans everywhere.
   20. Jay Jaffe Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:16 PM (#117996)
There's not a team in the majors that Little G wouldn't have been a big addition to, even if it was only as a 4th outfielder/part-time DH or 1B.

Atlanta: Duh.
   21. Mike Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:17 PM (#117999)
My reaction was like Kyle Brozlofski's mother's: "Wha-wha-wha-what??!?!?"

Maybe Beane got word from the owners that all this winning isn't helping the labor negotiations?
   22. Darren Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:17 PM (#118000)
What was Giambi making?
   23. Repoz Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:18 PM (#118001)
John Sterling (Yankee Radio)said "the trade is good for the Giambi brothers....Philly is only 90 miles away....this way they can visit each other"

It's always about the Yankees when it comes to the Yankees...uggghh
   24. WaltDavis Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:21 PM (#118007)
John Mabry joins Larry Sutton on the A's major league roster. I'm pretty sure that's one of the signs of the apocalypse.

Good thing I didn't pony up the dough for that lifetime membership in the Billy Beane fan club.

I'm still waiting to find out that it's Jennifer Giambi for John Mabry.

Well, playing time for multi-dimensional Adam Piatt. Too bad the A's don't play in that DH league where you can hide a uni-dimensional hitter.

Giambi must have (1) inherited Dennis Eckersley's locker and (2) slugged Art Howe and (3) been caught in bed with both Beane's daughters for this one to make any sense.

I keep looking for a bright side like "at least it wasn't Lenny Harris or Ed Sprague" but both those guys may be better than Mabry.

Crisis of faith baby.
   25. Shredder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:22 PM (#118011)
...And an Angel fan rejoices.
   26. Eugene Freedman Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:23 PM (#118013)
Unless the Royals want Mabry for Beltran I'm lost here.
   27. Darren Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:27 PM (#118021)
Couldn't they have gotten Valent, who seems destined to wither in AAA?
   28. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:27 PM (#118022)
Maybe Beane had Mabry's pitching skills in mind... not just one but two appearances. Sure his career ERA+ is 7, but you really don't look for that in a short stint reliever. Check out the 0:4 K:BB ratio.

Seriously, does anyone know the salaries involved here?
   29. Buddha Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:28 PM (#118025)
Oh my God, criticism of the almighty Billy Beane?

Next thing you know someone might say Garrett Anderson is actually GOOD.

Of course, someone would quickly follow that up with "not as good as he or the Angels thinks he is..."
   30. eric Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:32 PM (#118034)
Jim Rice, the sprague-tankersley deal wasn't so bad until the next year, when tankersley turned it up---now, you can criticize the sox for not anticipating tankersley's rise, but at the point of the trade he was mediocre, statistically speaking.
   31. Andere Richtingen Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:33 PM (#118038)
Darren - Giambi was making just over a million, so there was not a huge salary advantage here. I guess a million goes a lot further in the A's organization, but I don't think this was merely a salary dump.

It has to be something else. He apparently was caught with half an ounce of dope. That's not an intent to distribute amount, but someone taking half an ounce of dope home from Vegas is probably more than just an occasional user. He HAS to be extremely damaged goods if the best Beane could do was Mabry. I would think that about any GM.
   32. Toby Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:34 PM (#118039)
As a Red Sox fan I have this urge to burst out laughing.

Really, really strong urge.
   33. RichRifkin Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:34 PM (#118040)
How much do the A's save in salary? 500K?

Jeremy Giambi is making $1,065,000; Mabry is stealing $500,000. So that little money drop doesn't come close to justifying this trade. For money to have made the difference, the A's would have had to shed around $5,000,000 or more (in my opinion).

The only salary that might have been worth dumping on the A's - if anyone would take it - is David Justice's $7,000,000. However, I believe the Mets are paying 50% of Justice's salary, this year, so Justice is still probably worth keeping on the Athletics.
   34. RJ in TO Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:35 PM (#118043)
So I've been up working on a paper for the last 30 hours, and I just happened to flip by Headline Sports. Even though this is getting close to 100 posts, I still think I'm hallucinating. Dear God, this is the worst deal I've ever seen. Even worse than anything (and everything) the amazing Gordo put together over his reign in Toronto.

Giambi must be going to prison. I can't think of any other explanation. And it must be for a long time. Say 5 years or so. Any less time in the federal pen, and it's still a bad deal.
   35. Jay Jaffe Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:37 PM (#118048)
To paraphrase Casey Stengel, Mabry's 31 and in 10 years he has a chance to be 41.

If this trade were made in my ESPN fantasy league, it would be challenged and ultimately rejected on the grounds of being an unscrupulously one-sided deal.
   36. Buddha Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:38 PM (#118052)
Did I miss Jeremy Giambi becoming a great player? A little overreaction here I think.

Well I know I didn't miss John Mabry becoming one.
   37. RJ in TO Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:38 PM (#118053)
Jay,

This trade might be challenged and ultimately rejected by MLB for being ridiculously one-sided.
   38. Repoz Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:41 PM (#118059)
Ricciardi got bent out of shape by Orlando Hudson's pimp comment and shipped him out....possibly Giambi said or did something (that pot thing) that rubbed Beane the wrong way and disjointed him.
   39. Sharkbyte Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:41 PM (#118061)
RossyW - Actually I think Ed Wade just took that title, at least unril Kevin Towers' prospect stockpiling pays off in division titles.
   40. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:41 PM (#118062)
I'm totally dumbfounded. . . That being said, as I read this thread - am I the only one reminded of Whitey Herzog's Keith Hernandez for Neil Allen trade? (And that was shortly after Keith's co-MVP award). The general theory about that was that Whitey found out about Keith's coke habit, and wanted that out of his clubhouse ASAP. I've even heard it argued Herzog intentionally got too little for Keith to send a message to any other users or potential users on the team that this would not be tolerated. . . I know Jeremy's been busted for pot, maybe he does other stuff? Then again, maybe Beane's the one smoking pot. JOHN MABRY?!?
   41. Mike Piazza Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:41 PM (#118064)
I'M GAY!!!! I'M GAY!!!! I'M GAY!!!! I'M GAY!!!! I'M GAY!!!! I'M GAY!!!! DOESN'T ANYBODY WANT TO TALK ABOUT MY BEING GAY ANYMORE?????
   42. The Original Gary Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:42 PM (#118067)
FREE JOHN MABRY!
   43. Sharkbyte Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:43 PM (#118068)
RossyW - Actually I think Ed Wade just took that title, at least until Kevin Towers' prospect stockpiling pays off in division titles.

Or it could be an elaborate conspiracy to see how many posts can be generated here, I hope Billy had the "over" on 100 in an hour.
   44. Shredder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:44 PM (#118069)
Man, how stupid does Allard Baird look now?
   45. J. Cross Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:44 PM (#118071)
If this is someone's idea of a sick joke I'll be even more pissed that I dropped Giambi for Piatt in my AL-only fantasy league. I do feel bad for A's fans. Honestly, what's going on here??? Did Bud have a hand in this??? He realized that Philadelphia is a big market and something needed to be done? Or is Giambi going to jail? or are there other players involved??? NO WAY Beanse just made that trade to save 500K. Ridiculous. Couldn't happen.
   46. Andere Richtingen Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:46 PM (#118074)
Getting rid of Giambi is one thing, but doing it and not making your team better at the same time is just a waste of a resource.

Beane has been very good at taking minimally valuable assets and turning them into something that might turn out much better. For example, he turned Mark Bellhorn into Adam Morrissey. Now, Morrissey was merely a 22 year-old A-level infielder who was coming off of a surprisingly good season, an interesting but not very exciting prospect, merely someone who has a lot of potential. Beane should have been able to turn Giambi into a Morrissey type, at least. In fact, these sorts of trades should be bread and butter for an organization like the A's.

Mabry is worthless. There has to be more to this.
   47. Joe Morgan Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:47 PM (#118076)
The A's finally get it. Esteban German's speed is what they need in the leadoff spot.
   48. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:48 PM (#118080)
It's not just how Giambi plays now... it's the potential that he has (compared to the potential Mabry has).

I realize Jeremy's not that young, but with the power he displayed in the minors (.363/.465/.631 in AAA with 34 HR in 510 AB?better than Jason), he could improve a lot in that area, I think. I would guess that Jeremy's best years are ahead of him, and those could be really good years. Mabry's best years are behind him, and they weren't even as good as Giambi has been so far.
   49. Andere Richtingen Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:48 PM (#118081)
Palin - Why would Wade be made if Giambi went to prison? All he lost was John Mabry.
   50. Brian Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:49 PM (#118083)
Easily the worst trade in memory. There is no plus for the A's. None at all.
   51. Steve Treder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:50 PM (#118085)
The Keith Hernandez-for-Neil Allen analogy is the only one that makes any sense at all. Jeremy did something really unforgivable off the field, and Beane is sending the message loud and clear to the rest of the roster that we will drop you, too, like a hot potato if you do whatever-it-is. (That's always been my theory of why the Giants dropped Estalella last year.)

It still isn't a good move, but at least that's an explanation. Absolutely nothing else makes sense.
   52. Larry Bowa Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:52 PM (#118086)
You should see the photos I have of Billy Beane in compromising positions with woodchucks!
   53. J. Michael Neal Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:53 PM (#118088)
J. Cross,

That's why I'm not dumping Giambi yet. I did pick up Piatt, though; I dumped Menechino instead. I figure by the time German is available on the Yahoo database, it'll have sunk in that I lost Gimabi.

So, I traded Frank Catalanatto for an empty roster spot ...
   54. Sharkbyte Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:55 PM (#118094)
On the 5-years-in-prison theory: wouldn't anybody with the slightest bit of foresight still take Giambi starting at age 32 (especially given that there's probably little more to do in prison than to bulk up) over a completely replaceable Mabry at 31?
   55. DTS Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:55 PM (#118097)
Even the Keith Hernandez for Neil Allen deal involved Rick Ownbey going to St. Louis and somebody else, I think. And, Allen wasn't terrible for the Cardinals. Of course, that trade was also amazingly one-sided also, and is an excellent explanation for this trade.

Amazing.
   56. eric Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:57 PM (#118102)
does service time continue if one is incarcerated? :-)
   57. Shredder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 08:58 PM (#118104)
Sean and Walt, this round's on me. A toast to Billy Beane.
   58. J. Cross Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:01 PM (#118109)
J. Michael Neal,

I went for Brian Roberts instead of German to fill in for my Catalanatto. I also changed the team name from "Beane Town" (I had 7 A's) to "John F-ing Mabry."
   59. DTS Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:02 PM (#118111)
Rick, Giambi is marginal in the same way players with .390 OBP and .470 slugging averages are marginal. He is a good player with developing power. John Mabry is a journeyman who is on the wrong side of 30 with a career slugging percentage of under .400. He's bad. Giambi good.

The biggest shocker is that all Beane could get was Mabry. There must be something we don't know about.
   60. Craig Calcaterra Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:02 PM (#118112)
The Libertarian in me says that Beane can do anything that is plainly bad for him as long as he isn't hurting anyone else.

Oh wait, he is hurting lots of other people with this one. In that case, I demand a government investigation.
   61. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:06 PM (#118121)
Lance,

That's true. His stats were worse before. He had a .507 SLG in AA (Wichita), and .578 in 116 AB at A in Lansing, following his initial showing of .424 at my little town, Spokane (231 AB). Still, I feel he has more power potential. I could be wrong. So far, though, he's at .471 this year, which is better than he'd done before. The point is that Giambi right now still has some potential... he's not the best hitter he can be (in my subjective opinion). I would predict that he will reach a .500 SLG at some point. I believe we have yet to witness his best performance.

Even if you think the chances aren't great, at least they're there.
   62. Sharkbyte Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:08 PM (#118125)
Palin -

I'm not sure whether a contract would be seen to end when a player still owes service time to a team. But even if not, the chances of re-signing a player after his prison term would have to be a lot better if you show enough loyalty to keep his rights rather than dealing him for John F-ing Mabry before there's so much as a rumour in public. (All this of course assumes that Giambi will end up in prison, and we don't have any particular reason to think that's the case.)
   63. Josh Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:09 PM (#118126)
Maybe Beane wants out of his contract (that he just signed? OK, it's not a good theory, but this is like gravity suddenly stopping)?

This may be more lopsided than the Dye deal.
   64. Buddha Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:09 PM (#118127)
164 posts in about 10 minutes. Gotta be a record.
   65. DTS Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:11 PM (#118128)
I'd rather have Brett Laxton than John Mabry.
   66. Craig Calcaterra Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:20 PM (#118137)
Ever notice how Chis Kahrl's column always goes up the same day of a big trade, but too late to say anything about it? I saw the new TA at Prospectus, and I thought it was like an "Extra" edition of the old newspapers. Oh well, it looks like he has a whole week to rip into this one. I can't wait to see what he says.
   67. Josh Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:29 PM (#118144)
What's strange is the speculation that Giambi was being shopped for a while. Like, he passed up quite a few players before settling on John Mabry.

What was going on at those negotiating tables???
   68. Shredder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:30 PM (#118145)
Just hink of how long this thread is going to be when the guys that went outside for a cigarette about a half hour ago get back. I'm putting the number somewhere around 260 when all is said and done.
   69. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:33 PM (#118149)
Billy: "Hi Ed, I'm looking to make a trade, & I was wondering what you'd want in return for John Mabry?"

Ed: "Gee, I dunno Bill. I like Mabry. He fits in well around here, gives Dallas someone to yell at & all. . . maybe Menechino or Seanz or Jeff Tam, someone like that maybe."

Billy: "How about Jeremy Giambi?"

Ed: (after nearly choking to death on his sandwhich) "uh, uh, - yea, heck, I mean, I guess we could do that" - (looking around the room for Alan Funt & his Candid Camer) - "let's get the paperwork done right now while my blood is still up" (hangs up an gives a bewildered laugh).
   70. J. Cross Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:36 PM (#118152)
Okay, since we've accused Giambi of deforrestation already I think it's time for my crackpot theory. Ed Wade is going in on this scam with Billy Beane. The Yankees refused to deal with the A's so Giambi had to get moved to the Phillies so that they could trade him for Nick Johnson who will then get passed along to the A's (for someone like Jeff Tam). This has to be the explanation.
   71. Repoz Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:37 PM (#118153)
Matthew Elmslie,Toronter...

With all of Toronto's problems, Orlando Hudson's numbers for the Syracuse Doghouses are .306/.360/.461..821 with 2 errors in 42 games.

The point I was trying to make was that Ricciardi comes off as somewhat of a stuffed shirt (radio,magazine interviews)and being that he and Beane are friends maybe they have similar sensibilities.

Maybe_we_ would take the pimp comment as a compliment but Ricciardi certainly_did not_.
   72. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:45 PM (#118159)
perhaps a permanent thread entitled "Poor Man's Comic: Tiny Contemplations on Baseball Today" could be established to relieve the wasted space occupied by those who find it necessary to litter, truly, the majority of the discussions displayed on this site.

it might be time baseballprimer.com considered a registration of users, NOT for the purpose of funding or advertising, but simply to weed out some of the pointless fodder that appears here.

my apologies to the original pranksters who, at one point, were limited and actually insightful as well as entertaining.

as for you wannabes, go ahead and bring it on. i'm an open target. see 'name'.

what do you say Sean? Robert? Joe?

***********
   73. Shredder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:47 PM (#118164)
I'm just assuming the T.O. thread is going to steal some thunder. It wouldn't shock me if you were right, Dayn.

By the way, have I mentioned that I'm still grinning from ear to ear. It's a great day to be a non-stathead Angel fan.
   74. Josh Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:53 PM (#118170)
Maybe nathan could share his intellectual greatness with us and tell us what is "worthy" of being posted?
   75. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:58 PM (#118176)
andy

yeah, ok.. it's late over here in denmark and i should be in bed. i've been renovating my house for two weeks, so my tolerance isn't up to it's normal level of good naturedness.

still, i miss that guy (when there was only one) who employed reasonably clever name plays AND had some decent points to make ..
   76. Josh Posted: May 22, 2002 at 09:59 PM (#118177)
Jeremy at age 27:

.274/.390/.471

Jason at age 27:

.295/.384/.489

Deal still not making sense, and getting worse!
   77. Robert Dudek Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:05 PM (#118180)
So now, how many Oakland A's on the 25-man roster have good OBP skills? Um.... Jermaine Dye. Um... David Justice and Velarde a few years ago. That's about it.

Note that Oakland's park inhibits offense and thus hurt Giambi's stats a bit.

Okay guys - which was the dumber move: this one or Ash allowing Batista to be claimed on waivers.
   78. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:05 PM (#118181)
steve

good one.. you made my aching body laugh for a wonderful moment..!

has Bowa hired Luzinski as baserunning coach yet?

ho ho..

smiles..
   79. fables of the deconstruction Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:08 PM (#118183)
This might be a pretty bad trade but it's hardly the worse ever:

? The Hernandez/Allen trade has already been mentioned.

How about these:

? Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas
   80. All you Need is Glove Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:10 PM (#118184)
Steve,

LF - Burrell
   81. Aaron Gleeman Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:11 PM (#118186)
The Phillies offense is looking pretty good, if Bowa plays Little G.

SS Jimmy Rollins
   82. scruff Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:12 PM (#118187)
I'm with Steve. At this point I don't need to comment on the deal as it's obviously a joke. Simply amazing. Allaird Baird has possessed Billy Beane. A sad day for the stathead population.

I think Giambi will do more damage in the OF than at 1B. You know, OF defense and it's impact on DER and all. I'd stick Little G (that must annoy the hell out of him, but I can't help it) at 1B and move Travis Lee for whatever I could get. Boston or SF could probably use him.

If you have to keep Lee, start Giambi and Lee comes in for the 7th if you have a lead.
   83. RichRifkin Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:14 PM (#118189)
This is the fastest I've ever seen a Primer Thread get to 200 comments. It now has over 230, and Sean only put this up 2 hours ago. Wow! That's amazing!
   84. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:14 PM (#118190)
Put Giambi at 1st, wait a few weeks, and ship Travis Lee to Atlanta for prospects.
   85. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:15 PM (#118191)
steve

AND the Bull put a few seasons under his belt where his offensive output (perhaps) justified his defensive liabilities. i always felt he kind of got a raw deal at the end in Philadelphia.

Josh

if you like those posts, state your case.. fine. my point remains, and it's my opinion. getting petty furthers no argument.
   86. Sharkbyte Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:16 PM (#118192)
Robert: Two reasons why this deal is worse than the Batista loss on waivers.
   87. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:16 PM (#118193)
The only question now is which thread is going to have more posts. This one or the "is Mike Piazza gay" one. If I were a betting man I would put my money on this one.
   88. scruff Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:18 PM (#118195)
Trevise, I think this deal is worse than others, which all look terrible in hindsight. This one is terrible right now, the day it is made.

You are giving a pretty good 27-year old hitter for an absolute zero. Even w/Bagwell-Anderson you had a very good relief pitcher for a minor leaguer, we didn't now at the time he'd be a Hall of Famer.

On the surface, this is probably the most lopsided trade I have ever seen. I'm not exagerrating. There is absolutely no way this trade works out for Oakland. Even if Giambi suffers a career ending injury tonight, Mabry is worse than a zero. He's below replacement level.

Maybe Oakland will release him and sign Izzy Alcantrara or something. That'd be hysterical.

But even if they do -- they could have gotten more for Little G. I don't see how they couldn't have.
   89. All you Need is Glove Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:18 PM (#118196)
RossyW,

Abreu had just been left unprotected from the Astros roster in the expansion draft. The Rays then flipped him for a major league starting shortstop - Although Abreu looked like a good deal, laughing out loud was not the reaction. Thus, that trade was another that looks worse in retrospect.

This is something for nothing today.
   90. Robert Dudek Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:24 PM (#118198)
Steve...

The Clemens trade was a bad one, but it wasn't stupid. They had to deal Clemens because he had a written out clause. Obviously there weren't a lot of teams willing to take Clemens' salary at the time.

It's worth noting that David Wells outpitched Clemens over 1999 and 2000 and Homer Bush was decent definively and was their best offensive option until this year (Orlando Hudson is now ready, apparently). His main problem is that he couldn't stay healthy.
   91. Ben Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:24 PM (#118199)
Or maybe Beane was sleeping with Wade's wife?
   92. scruff Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:24 PM (#118200)
Steve, 1B range factors are useless. Throw them out the window. Not even worth looking at.

Diamond Mind rates Jeremy as FR at 1b and PR in lf and rf.

I'd NEVER play a PR of on turf. Ever. Unless he hits at an MVP level.

Jeremy will do a lot less damage at 1b. He shouldn't even be talked about as an OF. I'd bet Mo Vaughn would have just as much range in the OF.
   93. All you Need is Glove Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:25 PM (#118203)
Steve,

As a fellow Phils Phan, the problem with Lee (and Glanville) is that watching adequate backups start for two years really grates against a fan's tolerance. Even though it is management's fault that they allowed to (t) rot out onto the field every day, they still become a lightning rod for phandom's displeasure. Lee has had waaaayy tooo much time to prove he is not an everyday player and I am ecstatic that his days as a starter (and hopefully a Phil) are numbered.

With that being said sliding Lee into Mabry's role is also a good trade even colored by semi-hatred I can see that.
   94. fables of the deconstruction Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:35 PM (#118207)
Trevise, most of those trades looked bad after the fact. Just looking at the day that it happened, this one blows away almost anything I can think of. Keith Hernandez and Bobby Abreu are the first two that pop into my mind.

RossyW,

I'll admit, I was too young to remember when the Robinson/Pappas trade actually happened but, my father told me there was partying in the streets of Balmer after it was announced. general consensus of the time was Cincy got fleeced. It sure worked out that way.

However, I do remember the McLain trade. After looking at his stats compared to the others, I also thought it was a good trade. My father told me to look again and to highly discount 1968 as it wouldn't happen again. Second impression brought me to the same conclusion that he made. I was 9 at the time. It was a bad trade and it was called that at the time.

The "Davis" trade was a bad trade in the "worst George Allen tradition," 3 - 3 year old cats for a 10 year old dog. It smelled bad then, and smells worse now.

Although I'll grant that you may have a point on the Bagwell trade.

--------------
   95. scruff Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:38 PM (#118208)
Steve - Raw RF's are almost useless at any position, unless they say a player is incredible or awful they aren't of much use. Too much pollutes them.

You really need to look at system that is devised to weed through the inherent flaws in defensive stats. Defensive Win Shares. Charles Saeger's Context Adjusted Defense. Diamond Mind's ratings. Other than that it's just a guess.

Personally I like Diamond Mind's ratings, because they are on a scale (PR, FR, AV, VG, EX) that is easily recognizable. But if you don't have the game, you don't have access to the ratings.

A bad first baseman probably has a lot less potential to do harm than a bad leftfielder. If you play him close to the line, you aren't going to give up too many more extra base hits, most of his mistakes will be singles, and he's close enough to the bag that he can knock something down and still make a play.

But a terrible OF can have a devestating effect on team's defense. He'll probably (BTW, this is pure speculation, no data to back this up) cost you just as many 1B's as the bad 1B, but he'll also play singles and outs into 2B's and 3B's.

I can't remember where I saw it, but someone out there has sort of redefined the defensive spectrum. Instead of:

SS-2B-CF-3B-RF-LF-1B they now show it as:

SS-2B---3B----------1B
   96. Cuban X Senators Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:41 PM (#118210)
I'm in the Bay Area, but don't keep up with the A's much for no better reason than the Giants' announcers are light years better than the A's', but here a tidbit of info I've gleaned:

There are five young, single A's who live together in some huge place. Giambi and Zito are (were) two, and I believe Pena was with 'em. The other's I don't recall, but you can probably make some guesses. Giambi may be the least vital team member of that group, and just be the one paying for any alledged shenanigans going on among those guys.
   97. Kurt Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:43 PM (#118212)
On the surface, this is a worse trade than any of the others mentioned because Mabry is completely useless. LaMar could at least argue with a straight face that Stocker was a SHORTSTOP, and every team needs a SHORTSTOP; so as bad as that trade was, at least there was some justification. Same with Bagwell/Anderson; at least Anderson was a pretty good player who helped the Sox. This trade has absolutely no justification at all.

If the idea was to send a message for some unknown (to us) behavior, cutting Giambi would have made more sense.
   98. Cuban X Senators Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:43 PM (#118213)
and the best place to hide a butcher is at the postion of DH
   99. scruff Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:46 PM (#118214)
"and the best place to hide a butcher is at the postion of DH"

Fair enough wshntnls, I stand corrected. I was kind of thinking about what the Phillies would do for the remaining 108 games where the Phillies won't be on the road in an AL city. Thanks for pointing it out though :-)
   100. fables of the deconstruction Posted: May 22, 2002 at 10:47 PM (#118219)
Trevise, I think this deal is worse than others, which all look terrible in hindsight. This one is terrible right now, the day it is made.

Scruff,

See my reply to RossyW. Besides, you were:

a) Not yet born then.
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