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Tuesday, February 19, 2013

YAHOO! SPORTS: Oz: Pedro Martinez Admits 90% Of Batters He Hit Were On Purpose

Pedro admitted to reporters that 90 percent of the batters he hit were on purpose. Say what you want about Pedro, but he always did have control.

No surprise hear, for those who were paying attention.

The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 19, 2013 at 05:57 PM | 505 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hitting, red sox

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   101. tfbg9 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4372922)
Billie Jean beating Riggs


Please. The jerk0ff was like 63 years old or whatever.
Riggs did, however, appear in one of the most awesome "Odd Couple" ep's ever.


Felix: "Oscar Madisoy?"
   102. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4372924)
Like I said, it doesn't pass the straight face test.

Unlike the last generation's worth of Republican candidates, I presume. Your standards for face evaluation are so historically high.

------------------------------------------------

For the record, losing in 1996, off of Belliard's goofed double play followed by J*m F*ck*ng L*yr*tz was far worse than losing in 1999.

I will say this: If the Yanks ever lost a World Series to a bunch of tomahawk chopping zombies, that'd go right to the top of the list of Misery.
   103. tfbg9 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4372925)
Post 102? See post 82 please.

Andy? It looks like its time for your nap.
   104. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 20, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4372944)
Yankee fans have had a lot less disappointment than most baseball fans. 2001 stings a bit because the otherwise iconic middle games of the Series slip a notch in baseball lore given the final outcome. As a kid, the 1960 World Series seemed grossly unfair to me, given that the Yankees outscored the Pirates 55-27. The 2004 ALCS was disappointing, although it hardly evened the historical score between the teams. But such is life - you can't win them all. Living through the CBS years and Steinbrenner's counter-productive phase of the late 80's/early 90's made the subsequent successes even sweeter.
   105. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 20, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4372953)
No, what's wonderful isn't the content.


No, the content is pretty wonderful, too.
   106. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 20, 2013 at 06:20 PM (#4372965)
No, the content is pretty wonderful, too.

Dropping the nightcap in Washington on May 30, 1966 to drop to 18-22, or losing Game 7 at home to the Red Sox to choke away a series you had won a few short days ago and with it a trip to the World Series?

I see no real difference between the two.
   107. Poster Nutbag Posted: February 20, 2013 at 06:46 PM (#4372985)
I know the offseason usually blows and all, however, this season it's really made things fall apart here.

We need baseball on now, before another thread gets started/derailed by PED, Schilling, or some completely OT example of how NOT to have discussion...

(To be fair, at least this one is strictly baseball content for now, petty as it is)
   108. Nasty Nate Posted: February 20, 2013 at 06:52 PM (#4372989)
We need baseball on now, before another thread gets started/derailed by PED, Schilling, or some completely OT example of how NOT to have discussion...


A topic being diverted to the 2004 ALCS is always alright by me...
   109. phredbird Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:02 PM (#4372994)
All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.


Uh. No we weren't.


seconded.

and this denial about 2004 is funny. doesn't pass my smell test either.
   110. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:04 PM (#4372997)
seconded.


Me three. Offhand, I can't imagine any circumstances under which I'd root for the Yankees, unless they were playing ... I dunno ... the House Republicans Nine or something.
   111. tfbg9 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:07 PM (#4372998)
seconded.



I was yelling out my East 5th St. tenement window "Champs no more! Champs no more! Hahahahahaha! My 3 year nightmare is over!"
   112. phredbird Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:12 PM (#4372999)
The US college kids over the Soviet pros in the 1980 Olympics was the greatest sporting event of the 20th century.


i'm sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous things i've read on what has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads we've generated in a long time.
   113. phredbird Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4373000)
nevermind
   114. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4373002)
Dropping the nightcap in Washington on May 30, 1966 to drop to 18-22, or losing Game 7 at home to the Red Sox to choke away a series you had won a few short days ago and with it a trip to the World Series?

I see no real difference between the two.


Sorry, but when you're 22 years old, seeing your team finish last for the first time in 54 years is worse than losing a championship series that you didn't deserve to win**, when in the interim your team has won 10 more pennants and 6 more World Series. Just because some Red Sox fans seem to believe that the 2004 ALCS was the the defining event in American history doesn't mean that others necessarily see things from that perspective.

**As a strong believer in the theory that teams deserve whatever fate they get in the postseason, I've got no problem with stating that the Red Sox were definitely the best team in baseball in 2004, regular season be damned. 11 wins vs 3 losses makes it pretty tough to argue otherwise. I just calls em as I sees em.
   115. Publius Publicola Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:15 PM (#4373003)
The US college kids over the Soviet pros in the 1980 Olympics was the greatest sporting event of the 20th century.


Your politics are showing. From a different vantage point, Jesse Owens in Berlin, Louis vs. Schmeling, or even Billie Jean beating Riggs are greater triumphs.


None of these compare to the Czech hockey team beating the Soviets 1-0 in the '68 Olympics.
   116. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:18 PM (#4373008)
Offhand, I can't imagine any circumstances under which I'd root for the Yankees, unless they were playing ... I dunno ... the House Republicans Nine or something.

Hell, I'd almost root for the foam tomahawk brigade if it meant that Georgia would rejoin civilization and vote Democratic.
   117. Publius Publicola Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4373012)
All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.


What I love about this statement is the delicious narcissism it takes to make it, that only a Yankee fan could hope to possess.

Like the planes that flew that flew out of Boston and Washington and that flew into the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania never happened, or are an incidental afterthought. It was all about NY and its BASEBALL team. But not just any team. No, Bin Laden was after the NY YANKEES! By attacking the Yankees, you're attacking America itself!!
   118. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:25 PM (#4373013)
The US college kids over the Soviet pros in the 1980 Olympics was the greatest sporting event of the 20th century.


Your politics are showing. From a different vantage point, Jesse Owens in Berlin, Louis vs. Schmeling, or even Billie Jean beating Riggs are greater triumphs.


None of these compare to the Czech hockey team beating the Soviets 1-0 in the '68 Olympics.

You know, you're probably right about that, especially considering the timing. Definitely the greatest moment in Olympics history from a patriotic POV, although V?ra ?áslavská's turning the other way during the playing of the Soviet national anthem on two separate occasions was pretty damn memorable in itself.
   119. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:26 PM (#4373014)
All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.


What I love about this statement is the delicious narcissism it takes to make it, that only a Yankee fan could hope to possess.


What I love about BTF is that so many people actually take YR's tongue in cheek comments literally.
   120. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4373015)
For the record, losing in 1996, off of Belliard's goofed double play followed by J*m F*ck*ng L*yr*tz was far worse than losing in 1999.

Second this. '96 was the absolute worst and there were a lot to pick from. The team just rolling over and dying after Game 3 is right up there with the most pathetic things ever.
   121. Publius Publicola Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4373016)
Just because some Red Sox fans seem to believe that the 2004 ALCS was the the defining event in American history doesn't mean that others necessarily see things from that perspective.


C'mon, Andy. Man up. That series was the only time in baseball history where a team came back from 0-3. Considering the two teams involved, the history, especially the recent history, leaving it off your list is cognitive dissonance at its finest.
   122. Nasty Nate Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:36 PM (#4373022)
What I love about BTF is that so many people actually take YR's tongue in cheek comments literally.


I was going to post the same thing.

...than losing a championship series that you didn't deserve to win


Strangely, by pure coincidence, this doesn't apply much to 1997, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 or 2007....
   123. vortex of dissipation Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4373025)
None of these compare to the Czech hockey team beating the Soviets 1-0 in the '68 Olympics.


Aren't you thinking about the 1969 World Championships? The 1968 Olympics were in February, several months before the Soviet-led invasion of Czechoslovakia. The Czechs did beat the Soviets in that Olympics, 5-4, but the political climate wasn't as hot. But in 1969 the World Championships were supposed to be hosted by the Czechs, but because of the invasion, the games were shifted to Sweden. The Czechs were determined to beat the Soviets - and did, both times they met.
   124. phredbird Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:42 PM (#4373026)
All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.


What I love about this statement is the delicious narcissism it takes to make it, that only a Yankee fan could hope to possess.

What I love about BTF is that so many people actually take YR's tongue in cheek comments literally.


i apologize, somehow i got andy and YR confused. but i'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to do in this instance.
   125. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 20, 2013 at 07:51 PM (#4373031)
Like I said, it doesn't pass the straight face test.

Unlike the last generation's worth of Republican candidates, I presume. Your standards for face evaluation are so historically high.
This is weak to the point of practical non-existence. No one's politics have anything to do with this.

Post #81 is the BTF equivalent of Mrs. Featherbottom from Arrested Development. The fact that it was written with a straight face, in the belief that anyone could possibly take it seriously, hasn't stopped entertaining me all day.
   126. nick swisher hygiene Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4373034)
If pressed, I might say that my fellow Yankee fan, Andy, protests just a little too much (#81)--

But one thing younger fans maybe don't get is for a long, long time, NY v Boston was a one-way rivalry.

The proper Yankee fan stance toward the Sox was a mixture of boredom and contempt. All that rich New England literary tradition prose about Fenway, winter, etc? just so much manure.

Making too big a deal about 2004 is acknowledging the rivalry, is giving up your sports fan autonomy to a creation of the last decade of ESPN windbaggery.

(Of course, it was an epic choke; but it would be just as bad if the adversary had been, say, the hated Jays--and as a young Don Mattingly fan, it was those blue-pajamed-############# for whom I reserved my bile....)

   127. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4373036)
Just because some Red Sox fans seem to believe that the 2004 ALCS was the the defining event in American history doesn't mean that others necessarily see things from that perspective.

C'mon, Andy. Man up. That series was the only time in baseball history where a team came back from 0-3. Considering the two teams involved, the history, especially the recent history, leaving it off your list is cognitive dissonance at its finest.


What's also amusing about so many of these comments is the assumption that all Yankee fans of all ages have identical reactions to events, regardless of context.

As I've said, I was disappointed and disgusted with that 2004 tank job, but for many reasons it wasn't as bad for me as the ones I listed above. I suppose I should be either flattered or insulted to be confused with Mike Franscessa, but my reaction to sporting events doesn't always fall into preconceived categories. Sorry if that seems to confuse you, but maybe Red Sox fans all think in lockstep and they can't understand any other type of reaction.

Now if the Yankees hadn't won a ####### thing in 86 years and then blew a 3-0 lead in games, that'd be different. But in many ways I was almost happy just to see the many Matts and tfbg's of the world temporarily put out of their misery, out of pity for their beaten souls. It just makes my schadenfreude surrounding the Great Choke of 2011 and the Valentine Follies of 2012 all the more satisfying.

   128. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4373039)
But one thing younger fans maybe don't get is for a long, long time, NY v Boston was a one-way rivalry.

It was a "rivalry" much like that of the Christians and the lions.

The proper Yankee fan stance toward the Sox was a mixture of boredom and contempt. All that rich New England literary tradition prose about Fenway, winter, etc? just so much manure.

You might add amusement to the mix, but as for the literary BS, what else did they have to console them? A pretty ballpark, a bunch of batting championships and a string of blown World Series game 7's. You can't deny them their NPR fan base on top of all that.
   129. Publius Publicola Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4373040)
Aren't you thinking about the 1969 World Championships?


I suppose you are correct. I imagine the concurrence of the year 1968, the Czech gold medal and the invasion, I probably conflated the events into a cause and effect relationship. The mind works in mysterious ways. Probably explains where all these weird conspiracy theories come from.
   130. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:13 PM (#4373042)
i apologize, somehow i got andy and YR confused. but i'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to do in this instance.

I'm sincerely flattered. YR is Paul Krassner in a sea of Gene Weingartens.
   131. Publius Publicola Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:17 PM (#4373045)
The proper Yankee fan stance toward the Sox was a mixture of boredom and contempt.


But that's what made it so unique. The whole thing turned on its head. It was the Yankees who then were held in contempt, blowing the only 3-0 lead in MLB history. To the Red Sox, no less. The choke job was epic, a once in a lifetime event.

And they lost so wimpily, getting crushed at home like that. And A-Rod with his pathetic slapping incident, then standing on first base with his hands on his head, with that idiotic "Who? Me?" look on his face. And the fans booing the call and throwing debris on the field, like the umps were tanking the game for the Red Sox or something.

The whole episode just made the whole Yankee organization, team and fans, look so pathetic and infantile.

   132. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4373059)
I was disappointed and disgusted with that 2004 tank job, but for many reasons it wasn't as bad for me as the ones I listed above
Oh hello, Andy. I haven't see you in a week's time!
   133. tfbg9 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:44 PM (#4373063)
131-exactly. It was unprecedented.

2011 was very tough, while it was going on, but since the NYY did NOT win the WS, its not a too big deal now, to me.
It was a brutal September. What really really hurt about 1978 was the Yanks took the WS.
   134. JJ1986 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:49 PM (#4373065)
I think it's easy to believe that 2004 wasn't the worst Yankees loss for someone or among the 10 worst or some number. It's harder to believe that it was not as bad as a division series that the Yankees won.
   135. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 20, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4373066)
2003 was the one for me. That is was Pedro on the mound compounded everything. I was not a healthy person for while afterward. That the Yankees lost the world series made no difference at all to my psyche.

After 2004, baseball can't hurt me like that anymore. It's really nice.
   136. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 20, 2013 at 09:09 PM (#4373082)
Uh. No we weren't.


seconded.


Me three. Offhand, I can't imagine any circumstances under which I'd root for the Yankees, unless they were playing ... I dunno ... the House Republicans Nine or something.


I was yelling out my East 5th St. tenement window "Champs no more! Champs no more! Hahahahahaha! My 3 year nightmare is over!"


I think what we see here is a fine illustration of why Yankee fans have so much more character than the rest. A Yankee fan roots for the Yankees. The rest of you cockroaches get to root for the field, and it's considered poor manners to point out what a shameless cadre of gutless bandwagon-hopping jockriders you all are.


   137. tfbg9 Posted: February 20, 2013 at 09:24 PM (#4373096)
That the Yankees lost the world series made no difference at all to my psyche.



It did for me. It cheered me up a bit. I'm totally OK with it now, 2003. That was a fun team.

"After 2004, baseball can't hurt me like that anymore. It's really nice."

Yes. Thats why 2004 was so wonderful. It washed away all the horrible losses.
Yes the Yankees have 27 rings. But to me its like 27 Mercury's next to our Jupiter-sized 2004.
I still wake up some mornings not quite believeing it really happened the way it did.

And YR, only little d0uchebags root for Goliath. Do the math.
   138. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 20, 2013 at 09:32 PM (#4373099)
And YR, only little d0uchebags root for Goliath.


What size d0uchebag roots for the entire Israelite army against one man?
   139. dr. scott Posted: February 20, 2013 at 09:32 PM (#4373101)
2003 was brutal. It was maybe the worst of the A's playoff screwups. After a brilliant game 1, and then losing those two in Boston to bad baserunning, and then coming so close in game 5 with pedro being hittable to have Lowe finish off the game with a big jerk off while Dye was still on the frickin bench.

At least that is my memory... still too raw to check BR to see if I'm right.
   140. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 20, 2013 at 10:52 PM (#4373124)
Wow. I didn't particularly like some of the 2004 Yankees, but that series was one of the worst experiences of my life. Maybe the fact that I was living in Boston made it so much worse...

anyway, the Red Sox 2011 is equally hilarious...
   141. bobm Posted: February 20, 2013 at 10:58 PM (#4373133)
From BB-REF PI Event Finder:

Pedro Martinez: 141 Hit By Pitches Allowed in Career-2009
1 leading off game, 0 game-ending, 0 walk-off

vs. RHB 79
vs. LHB 62

Away 75
Home 66
 
29 Opp
NYY 17
PHI 11
TOR 11
TBD 10
SFG  8
HOU  8
BAL  7
DET  6
ATL  6
SDP  5
SEA  5
WSN  5
FLA  5
STL  4
PIT  4
MIN  3
OAK  3
CHC  3
CIN  3
NYM  3
TEX  2
ANA  2
LAD  2
CLE  2
CHW  2
ARI  1
KCR  1
BOS  1
MIL  1
 
117 Batters
   Jose Guillen 5

   Jeff Blauser 3
   Jason Giambi 3
 Carlos Delgado 3
 John Patterson 3

     Ben Grieve 2
 Kirt Manwaring 2
Shannon Stewart 2
Chuck Knoblauch 2
  Shane Spencer 2
  Luis Gonzalez 2
  Robin Ventura 2
   Aaron Rowand 2
   Jeff Bagwell 2
Benito Santiago 2
    Melvin Mora 2
Gregg Jefferies 2
...

Pitches
2 33
3 32
1 25
5 22
4 14
6 10
?  2
7  2
9  1
 
GameTot
3·HB gms   1
2·HB gms  14
1·HB gms 110

OrderPos
1st 21
3rd 18
2nd 18
5th 17
6th 15
7th 15
4th 13
9th 12
8th 12
 
Outs 
 0  56
 1  47
 2  38
<2 103

Bases 
--- 88
1-- 19
-2-  8
12-  8
-23  7
1-3  5
--3  4
123  2

   RISP    34
   1 on    31
1st occ    34
3rd occ    18
   2 on    20
 Any on    53

Leverage
.7-1.5 66
  <0.7 48
  ?1.5 27
 
Count
0-0 25
0-1 22
0-2 19
2-2 18
1-2 17
1-1 15
1-0 11
3-2  5
2-1  4
???  2
3-1  2
2-0  1
Ahd 58
Evn 58
Beh 23
 
Inning
  1 28
  2 20
  3 27
  4 11
  5 20
  6 15
  7  9
  8  7
  9  3
10+  1

  1-3 75
  4-6 46
7-end 20
 
RelScore
+4..  14
  +3   9
  +2  17
  +1  15
Tied  44
  -1  20
  -2   9
  -3   7
  -4.. 6

Ahd. 55
Beh. 42
   142. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:39 PM (#4373154)
I think what we see here is a fine illustration of why Yankee fans have so much more character than the rest. A Yankee fan roots for the Yankees. The rest of you cockroaches get to root for the field, and it's considered poor manners to point out what a shameless cadre of gutless bandwagon-hopping jockriders you all are


It must be hard growing up with daddy's money cushioning your fall like that.

RE: 2001, as told anyone who would listen at the time, 9/11 can be an "America" thing or it can be a "New York" thing. If you want it to be a New York thing, don't expect me to give a #### about it. If you tie your tragedy to your local sporting team, I will mock your tragedy. That's the price of making the mistake of conflating your sports team with the nation.

Also, Andy, somehow we'll manage to survive in Braves Country without you hanging around, shitting your Depends.
   143. bobm Posted: February 20, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4373157)
All of MLB: 27833 Hit By Pitches Allowed in 1992-2009

324 leading off game, 23 game-ending, 22 walk-off

30 Tms
BOS 1152
COL 1053
WSN 1052
PHI 1015
TEX 1010
STL 1007
SEA 1003
MIL 1002
PIT  996
HOU  970
TOR  966
ANA  958
DET  953
CIN  940
KCR  936
CHC  930
OAK  929
FLA  929
NYY  925
BAL  909
NYM  909
CHW  895
CLE  888
LAD  872
TBD  865
SFG  857
SDP  848
MIN  753
ARI  697
ATL  614

Away 13942
Home 13891
 
30 Opp
HOU 1176
TOR 1146
PIT 1134
MIL 1082
BOS 1063
NYY 1056
FLA 1018
CLE 1011
KCR  991
WSN  980
PHI  979
BAL  971
OAK  949
MIN  942
STL  937
CIN  928
SEA  910
COL  901
SFG  896
DET  870
TEX  856
CHW  853
NYM  848
ANA  837
ATL  823
LAD  802
SDP  797
CHC  793
TBD  661
ARI  623

2028 Pitchers
  Tim Wakefield 173
  Randy Johnson 170
 Pedro Martinez 141
   Chan Ho Park 135
   Jamey Wright 134
    Jeff Weaver 123
    Jamie Moyer 119
    Kevin Brown 118
   Kenny Rogers 116
  Roger Clemens 115
     Aaron Sele 112
  Pedro Astacio 111
    Darryl Kile 111
      Al Leiter 110
    Greg Maddux 107
Vicente Padilla  99
 Julian Tavarez  96
   Matt Clement  94
 Scott Erickson  92
    Jeff Suppan  92
     Kerry Wood  91
  Darren Oliver  87
     David Cone  86
Carlos Zambrano  81
     Barry Zito  81
 Orel Hershiser  80
 Byung-Hyun Kim  80
 Javier Vazquez  79
    David Wells  77
 Bronson Arroyo  76
     Tim Hudson  75
 Esteban Loaiza  75
   John Burkett  75
    Matt Morris  74
  Omar Olivares  73
     Randy Wolf  73
    John Lackey  73
      Dave Bush  73
 Woody Williams  72
   Kevin Appier  71

1762 Batters
     Craig Biggio 274
    Jason Kendall 248
   Carlos Delgado 172
     Jason Giambi 164
    Fernando Vina 157
   Alex Rodriguez 149
      Derek Jeter 143
   Brady Anderson 137
 Andres Galarraga 135
  Chuck Knoblauch 135
   David Eckstein 134
    Damion Easley 132
     Jose Guillen 131
     Larry Walker 127
   Gary Sheffield 125
        Jeff Kent 125
     Jeff Bagwell 115
      Scott Rolen 112
      Melvin Mora 110
     Aaron Rowand 109
    Miguel Tejada 107
      Chase Utley 107
      Jason LaRue 106
        Mo Vaughn 106
Mark Grudzielanek 104
    Manny Ramirez 103
    Luis Gonzalez 103
     Reed Johnson  98
    Geoff Jenkins  96
      Matt Lawton  94
      Cliff Floyd  91
      Barry Bonds  91
     Craig Wilson  90
  Mike Lieberthal  89
       Eric Young  89
       Ed Sprague  88
    Rondell White  88
     Carl Everett  87
Vladimir Guerrero  87
     Andruw Jones  86
 
  
Pitches
  2 6185
  3 5826
  1 5491
  4 4600
  5 2975
  6 1473
  7  566
  ?  395
  8  207
  9   76
10+   39
 
GameTot
7·HB gms     2
6·HB gms     7
5·HB gms    42
4·HB gms   280
3·HB gms  1174
2·HB gms  4790
1·HB gms 13345

OrderPos
1st 3517
3rd 3404
4th 3351
2nd 3245
6th 3096
7th 3025
5th 3024
8th 3016
9th 2155
 
 Outs 
 1  9476
 0  9296
 2  9061
<2 18772
 
 Bases 
--- 13826
1--  4880
-2-  2757
12-  2268
1-3  1187
--3  1172
123   883
-23   860

   RISP  9127
   1 on  8809
1st occ  9218
3rd occ  4102
   2 on  4315
 Any on 14007

Leverage
  <0.7 11582
.7-1.5 10202
  ?1.5  6049
 
Count
0-0 5466
0-1 4387
1-2 4251
0-2 3000
1-1 2924
2-2 2775
1-0 1788
3-2 1034
2-1  965
2-0  457
???  395
3-1  273
3-0  118

Ahd    11638
Evn    11165
Beh     4635
 
Inning
  1 3324
  2 3016
  3 3005
  4 2984
  5 2982
  6 3177
  7 3348
  8 3333
  9 2125
10+  539

  1-3 9345
  4-6 9143
7-end 9345
 
RelScore
+4..  2721
  +3  1441
  +2  2226
  +1  3279
Tied  7098
  -1  3368
  -2  2444
  -3  1662
-4..  3594

Ahd.  9667
Beh. 11068
   144. SandyRiver Posted: February 21, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4373229)
The US college kids over the Soviet pros in the 1980 Olympics was the greatest sporting event of the 20th century.


i'm sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous things i've read on what has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads we've generated in a long time.


Maybe not "greatest aporting event", but it has to rank with the greatest upsets ever, or at least one of the most unexpected. In that category, I'd put it at the top, well ahead of things like SB3, Giants' comeback in 1951 (and sweep of 111-43 Cleveland 3 yr later), Pirates over Yankees 1960, Bills comeback against Houston, or Sox comeback in 2004.
   145. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:24 AM (#4373249)
Maybe not "greatest aporting event", but it has to rank with the greatest upsets ever, or at least one of the most unexpected. In that category, I'd put it at the top, well ahead of things like SB3, Giants' comeback in 1951 (and sweep of 111-43 Cleveland 3 yr later), Pirates over Yankees 1960, Bills comeback against Houston, or Sox comeback in 2004.

More unexpected than Buster Douglas's beating Mike Tyson? More unexpected than 41 point underdog Stanford beating Southern Cal in 2007?
   146. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4373254)
More unexpected than 41 point underdog Stanford beating Southern Cal in 2007?


Come on man, that game wasn't even the biggest upset of the 2007 college football season.
   147. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:39 AM (#4373258)
More unexpected than Buster Douglas's beating Mike Tyson?


That one came to mind for me, too. I haven't followed boxing at all since roughly the time Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw, but my impression was that the Douglas victory was an utter shock.

At any rate, we all know the greatest upset of all time was Arkansas riding roughshod over Oklahoma in the 1978 Orange Bowl even though Lou Holtz had suspended our two starting running backs & (IIRC) our best receiver.
   148. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4373261)
More unexpected than 41 point underdog Stanford beating Southern Cal in 2007?

Come on man, that game wasn't even the biggest upset of the 2007 college football season.


If you're referring to Appalachian State vs Michigan, Michigan was a 22 to 23 point favorite in that game.
   149. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:58 AM (#4373273)
More unexpected than Buster Douglas's beating Mike Tyson? More unexpected than 41 point underdog Stanford beating Southern Cal in 2007?

Yes and yes. The Soviet Olympic hockey team won a three-game series in the spring of 1979 in Madison Square Garden against an NHL All-Star team. They won Game 3 6-0. They weren't just better than the NHL's best team, they were better than a team of the NHL's best players.

The US was a bunch of 21 year old college players and some 25 year old guys (like Eruzione) who weren't close to NHL caliber, who had been put together on the fly. It was like the East team in the East-West Shrine Game training for a few months and going out and beating the Ravens, only probably even more dramatic.

Naturally, Sports Illustrated in 1999 called it the greatest sports moment of the 20th century -- which it plainly was.
   150. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:59 AM (#4373274)
At any rate, we all know the greatest upset of all time was Arkansas riding roughshod over Oklahoma in the 1978 Orange Bowl even though Lou Holtz had suspended our two starting running backs & (IIRC) our best receiver.

Yeah, that one's up there, too. It's a bit of an apples and oranges thing, though, since betting odds and "shock" aren't necessarily identical. In terms of baseball "shock", two regular season games come to mind:

18 game winning streak (the last 14 on the road) meets 14 game losing streak (all at home), in the first game of the winning streak team's home stand. Home team's pitcher had a career W-L total of 16 and 0 in starting roles his first six months in the Majors, with his sole loss in a relief appearance.

Roger Clemens (14-1) of the first place Red Sox, pitching in Fenway against Dave Stewart (0-0, making his first start of the year after kicking around the Majors for the past two years) of the last place Athletics.
   151. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 21, 2013 at 10:59 AM (#4373276)
2001 stings a bit because the otherwise iconic middle games of the Series slip a notch in baseball lore given the final outcome. As a kid, the 1960 World Series seemed grossly unfair to me, given that the Yankees outscored the Pirates 55-27.

Going into the bottom of the ninth of Game Seven, the Yankees were about to win a World Series in which they'd been outscored 35-14.

But then, Randy Johnson got his third win of the Series on zero days' rest, becoming the first 3-win pitcher since LBJ was President, and was given a friggin' CO-MVP for it.
   152. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:00 AM (#4373277)
I watched the Tyson/Douglas fight live on HBO, IIRC. Tyson was utterly lost at that point, and anybody on the inside had to at least sort of see it coming. It was however, IIRC again, "off the boards" in Vegas.

I was shocked as hell, at the time, but now I believe Tyson was largely a hype-created bully, who quickly panicked when in a real fight.

Kinda like Andy in this thread? Whoops!
   153. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4373287)
I watched the Tyson/Douglas fight live on HBO, IIRC. Tyson was utterly lost at that point, and anybody on the inside had to at least sort of see it coming. It was however, IIRC again, "off the boards" in Vegas.

The bagel shop owner around the corner from my book shop was telling everyone within earshot in the days preceding the fight that Douglas was a mortal lock. I have no idea what the basis was for his confidence, but in terms of predictions he was the Muhammad Ali of bagel shop owners.

I was shocked as hell, at the time, but now I believe Tyson was largely a hype-created bully, who quickly panicked when in a real fight.

Kinda like Andy in this thread? Whoops!


Sort of like Teddy Ballgame in the 10 most important games of his life. (/ducks)
   154. Nasty Nate Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4373296)

Sort of like Teddy Ballgame in the 10 most important games of his life. (/ducks)


Nah, those weren't important games - everyone who was paying attention knew they were going to lose and why mourn over teams that didn't deserve to win the world series - his most disappointing failures were some o-fers in early season in 1941 and 1942 and some times he hit foul balls instead of homers in batting practice on army camps during the war and one time a fish he caught wasn't as big as he would have hoped....
   155. GuyM Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4373298)
Naturally, Sports Illustrated in 1999 called it the greatest sports moment of the 20th century -- which it plainly was.


Yes, it did. But that's a pretty crappy list: #2 is Jordan shooting a basket to win game 6 in 1986, not even a decisive game. SI has another list of "Great Moments in Sports," which seems much more thoughtful. The 1980 hockey team comes in 33rd there, which seems reasonable. Ruth's called shot is #1, Owens is #2, DiMaggio-56 #4, Thompson #5, Mays' catch #7. It's pretty baseball-heavy (and of course U.S.-centric), but a pretty reasonable list.

There is no objectively correct answer to this question of course. But it is objectively wrong to put the 1980 Hockey team #1.
   156. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4373301)
SI has another list of "Great Moments in Sports," which seems much more thoughtful. The 1980 hockey team comes in 33rd there, which seems reasonable. Ruth's called shot is #1, Owens is #2, DiMaggio-56 #4, Thompson #5, Mays' catch #7. It's pretty baseball-heavy (and of course U.S.-centric), but a pretty reasonable list.

It's also a list in chronological order (*), which gives a rather hefty advantage to things that happened in 1933 as opposed to 1980 ...

(*) Thus the dates of 1933, 1936, 1941, 1951, and 1954 for numbers 1-5.
   157. GuyM Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:47 AM (#4373308)
It's also a list in chronological order

Fair point, I just assumed they had ranked them. In any case, a quick perusal of their 76 moments reveals many that are more significant/memorable than the 1980 hockey team. If you want to define "great" as "surprising upset," then maybe there's a case to be made. But for me "upset" would only be one factor, and not the most important, in defining "great" sporting events.

   158. Answer Guy Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:49 AM (#4373309)
Anyone else read this as merely "Hey everyone! I'm going to say something outrageous! Pay attention to me, damnit!!" I wouldn't want the attention that comes with a remark like that, but I'm not Pedro Martinez, who may miss the publicity, good and bad, that comes with being a pro athlete superstar.
   159. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 11:51 AM (#4373313)
Ted was badly hurting in the elbow in the '46 Series. So we're down to 3 games.

The most important batting stat is "not making an out": OBP. Who has the highest OBP of all time? That's right. Therefore, Ted Williams is the greatest hitter who ever lived.

Just like he set out to be as a boy back in SD. ; )

*wipes tear from eye
   160. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4373319)
Fair point, I just assumed they had ranked them. In any case, a quick perusal of their 76 moments reveals many that are more significant/memorable than the 1980 hockey team. If you want to define "great" as "surprising upset," then maybe there's a case to be made. But for me "upset" would only be one factor, and not the most important, in defining "great" sporting events.

I get what I think you're saying about tiresome US jingoism. I don't really root for US athletes in the Olympics just because they're US athletes anymore, and affirmatively root for the US to lose in the soccer World Cup.

That said, we shouldn't confuse today with 1980, or the rote flag-waving over the USA pros of recent Olympic vintage with rooting for a bunch of college kids to beat a team that was rather dour and joyless, and that had stacked the deck by merely pretending to be amateurs. Part of the appeal of the event is its relative innocence and the understanding that sports has become so regimented and corporate that you'll never see a matchup with even the potential for such a big upset ever again. We've "fixed" the "problem" of matching up amateurs and pros, much like we've "fixed" a lot of "problems" with sports (see, e.g., instant replay) that were never really problems in the first place. The 1980 Olympic hockey tournament elegantly captures what's been lost as the "importance" of sports has grown so distended.
   161. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4373324)
I'm remembering it as the 9 year old kid I was but that US/USSR game was HUGE. It wasn't just the shock of an underdog US team beating a heavily favored Soviet team but the surrounding politics of the moment. The US as plucky underdogs is, like many of the Red Sox narratives over the years, vastly overplayed. There were several good to very good future NHL players on that US team (Broten, Christian, Morrow, Ramsey). Still, in terms of US sport at the very least it's a top 5 moment.

Buster Douglas over Tyson still blows me away. The shocker for me is that right from the outset Tyson looked lost. If memory serves he had just split with his longtime trainer Kevin Rooney (who had worked with Cus D'amato) and Tyson's bob and weave style of defense wasn't there that night. He just came straight ahead and Douglas beat the hell out of him with his jab.
   162. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4373325)
affirmatively root for the US to lose in the soccer World Cup.


Given that you hate everything this isn't a surprise but I'm curious as to why. This is one of the few sports where the US is a legitimate underdog and for the most part the US has a lot of pretty likeable players on the national team (unlike the hoop team which is a bunch of guys who need a good slap).
   163. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:10 PM (#4373326)
I might be wrong, but I think the USA!/USSR game was first broadcast on TV here in the states hours after had happened--on tape delay? Something like that.* Anybody? I kind of recall something like that, as a bunch of us watched it on a crappy black and white portable in an NYU dorm.


*or am I thinking of the Final vs Finland? Most people don't recall that the USSR game wasn't for the gold.
   164. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4373328)
Given that you hate everything this isn't a surprise but I'm curious as to why. This is one of the few sports where the US is a legitimate underdog and for the most part the US has a lot of pretty likeable players on the national team (unlike the hoop team which is a bunch of guys who need a good slap).

I have little to no preference for US athletes over athletes of other nations and, more importantly, have no interest in seeing world soccer being Americanized in any way, shape, or form.

How is the US an underdog?
   165. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4373329)
*or am I thinking of the Final vs Finland? Most people don't recall that the USSR game wasn't for the gold.

I believe the game wasn't broadcast live. It was a Friday (a HS basketball Friday for me, so I didn't see it live. Our coach tried to fire us up by telling us the US won, so anything's possible, yadda yadda. What wasn't possible, apparently, was our team winning that night.)

Finland was the next Sunday. Pretty sure that was live and I was glued to the set. Though the semi was the Game of the Century, the final was far from a gimme.
   166. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4373330)
tfbg - I'm pretty sure the USSR game was shown on tape delay. I think you're right about that.

SBB - The US is an underdog by virtue of not being as good as other teams.
   167. RJ in TO Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:17 PM (#4373331)
Anyone else read this as merely "Hey everyone! I'm going to say something outrageous! Pay attention to me, damnit!!"

Yeah, Pedro really Schillinged the hell out of this one.
   168. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4373334)
Sort of like Teddy Ballgame in the 10 most important games of his life. (/ducks)

Nah, those weren't important games - everyone who was paying attention knew they were going to lose and why mourn over teams that didn't deserve to win the world series - his most disappointing failures were some o-fers in early season in 1941 and 1942 and some times he hit foul balls instead of homers in batting practice on army camps during the war and one time a fish he caught wasn't as big as he would have hoped....


Well, you got the first part right, even if inadvertently. Even Red Sox fans can stumble across an acorn once in a while.

Ted was badly hurting in the elbow in the '46 Series. So we're down to 3 games.

The most important batting stat is "not making an out": OBP. Who has the highest OBP of all time? That's right. Therefore, Ted Williams is the greatest hitter who ever lived.


Wow, talk about being "defensive". Glad I didn't bring up that fielding misplay of his that helped blow the 1949 pennant on the final day. (smile)

(EDIT: Make that a grin.)
   169. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4373336)
Anyone else read this as merely "Hey everyone! I'm going to say something outrageous! Pay attention to me, damnit!!"

I saw it as his usual mixture of outrageousness and honesty. And damn, I wish he'd been a Yankee.
   170. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4373340)
And damn, I wish he'd been a Yankee


*throws up in mouth
   171. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4373348)
And damn, I wish he'd been a Yankee

*throws up in mouth


4 out of 5 New York doctors recommend Prilosec OTC for acid reflux. Just sayin'.

And double damn, the thought of Teddy Ballgame in pinstripes.....Of course they'd have to bench him during the World Series and replace him with Gene Woodling, who was a much more proven postseason clutch performer.
   172. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4373350)
Pulling the thread together, Tikhanov pulling Tretiak after the first period in the semis made Grady Little look like Albert Einstein for leaving Pedro in, yet Tikhanov wasn't fired (or worse) and Little was run out of town.

So, crafting our list of tolerance and patience in sports, we find that it runs, in reverse order, as follows:

3. Red Sox fans
2. Theo Epstein
1. Brezhnev's apparatchiks.

   173. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4373351)
The 1980 Olympic hockey thing didn't make much of an impact for me, I guess because I was preoccupied with college & such.

The 1972 Russian theft of the basketball gold medal, though ... ugh.
   174. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4373354)
4 out of 5 New York doctors recommend Prilosec OTC for acid reflux. Just sayin'.


Prevacid FTW, bytch.
   175. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4373355)
So, crafting our list of tolerance and patience in sports, we find that it runs, in reverse order, as follows:

3. Red Sox fans
2. Theo Epstein
1. Brezhnev's apparatchiks.


But even Red Sox fans are a bit more forgiving than fans of Colombian soccer.
   176. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:46 PM (#4373357)

The 1972 Russian theft of the basketball gold medal, though ... ugh.


Now here's one that I think is massively overblown. The US team got their asses kicked that day. They were down 9 with 4 minutes to go and needed a furious comeback to be ahead. The sequence at the end of the game was a joke but the US should have won that game easily but they spit the bit (largely by playing a slow it down style that suited the Soviets). The whining from the US players since then is embarrassing.

The refs didn't lose that game for the US. The US put themselves in a position where a fluke could beat them...and did.
   177. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4373360)
Andy, might this be you, between gigs, back in the late '70's?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63AuMTeRMqk&list=UUFb0L4MQziTjEsJKTbFgm8Q&index=54
   178. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4373361)
The refs didn't lose that game for the US.

No, the hacks and knaves that made them play the last three seconds three times lost that game for the US.
   179. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 01:01 PM (#4373368)
I just now went back & watched the ending of the game for what I'm pretty sure is the first time since it happened (a few days before I turned 13). Why the hell did the ref wave Tom McMillen away from the baseline when he was trying to defend the in-bounds pass? Was that an international rules thing?
   180. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 02:07 PM (#4373404)
Why the hell did the ref wave Tom McMillen away from the baseline when he was trying to defend the in-bounds pass? Was that an international rules thing?


Wikipedia has a good write up on it.

On the third inbound try, McMillen was again assigned to use his height to challenge Edeshko's inbound pass. However, as official Artenik Arabadjian prepared to put the ball into play, he gestured to McMillen. McMillen responded by backing several feet away from Edeshko, which gave Edeshko a clear view and unobstructed path to throw a long pass down the court. McMillen later said that Arabadjian had instructed him to back away from Edeshko. McMillen said that despite the fact that there was no rule which would require him to do so, he decided to comply, fearing that if he did not, Arabadjian might assess a technical foul against him.[13] For his part, Arabadjian has denied that his gesture was intended to instruct McMillen to back away from Edeshko
   181. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4373411)
Yeah, McMillen says as much at the 8-minute mark of the YouTube segment I linked to. Upon closer examination, it appears that the ref might've just been warning him to make sure he didn't step on or across the line. Who knows?

Interesting how the mind's eye can distort things. For decades, I've carried a pretty clear mental image of the Russian player who made the winning basket blatantly elbowing his two U.S. defenders to the ground as he went for the shot. Instead, looks like their momentum simply carried them down.
   182. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4373416)
Interesting how the mind's eye can distort things. For decades, I've carried a pretty clear mental image of the Russian player who made the winning basket blatantly elbowing his two U.S. defenders to the ground as he went for the shot. Instead, looks like their momentum simply carried them down.

On the other hand, my 8-year-old eyes didn't fully capture the contours of the foul on Collins, which I now see was one of the most crude, thuggish undercuts you'll ever see in serious basketball. What the ####?
   183. Ron J2 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4373419)
now I believe Tyson was largely a hype-created bully, who quickly panicked when in a real fight.


I don't see Douglas as a more fearsome opponent than Trevor Berbick or Tony Tubbs or ... well the heavyweight division was kind of shallow at the time, but Douglas wouldn't have been seen as an unusually strong opponent.

I think it's pretty clear that he'd lost his earlier work ethic and hadn't trained properly (and would never do so again). He expected an easy win. One clean shot and it's over.


   184. Lassus Posted: February 21, 2013 at 02:53 PM (#4373430)
now I believe Tyson was largely a hype-created bully, who quickly panicked when in a real fight.

YR is the boxing expert here. He says so, I'll believe it. Otherwise, not so much.
   185. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 02:53 PM (#4373431)
William Jones -- The very definition of the arbitrary and petty functionary, and History's Worst Monster.
   186. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 21, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4373480)
William Jones -- The very definition of the arbitrary and petty functionary, and History's Worst Monster.


I don't know about that, but he sure makes a nice representative for the IOC.

It would be interesting to know who decided to fire the horn off as Doug Collins was in the middle of attempting the game-winning free throw. I wonder what would have happened if he had missed it.
   187. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4373487)
Now here's one that I think is massively overblown. The US team got their asses kicked that day. They were down 9 with 4 minutes to go and needed a furious comeback to be ahead. The sequence at the end of the game was a joke but the US should have won that game easily but they spit the bit (largely by playing a slow it down style that suited the Soviets). The whining from the US players since then is embarrassing.

The refs didn't lose that game for the US. The US put themselves in a position where a fluke could beat them...and did.


That's crazy. I don't care what the US team did up to that point. It was balatant thievery to replay the last possession until they got the outcome they wanted.
   188. cardsfanboy Posted: February 21, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4373511)
There is no objectively correct answer to this question of course. But it is objectively wrong to put the 1980 Hockey team #1.


You honestly believe this? I cannot think of one single baseball moment that doesn't involve Jackie Robinson that I would put over the 1980 Miracle on Ice. And I'm a baseball fan and hate amateur sports with a passion(I don't know why anyone other than family members, should care one bit about sports that don't generally have the top talent) That list you pointed seemed awfully New York specific to be taken seriously. Mays catch? seriously? Anyone that puts that on a top 50 list of greatest event in sports, is a certifiable idiot. Dimaggio Hit streak? c'mon, seriously man, it wasn't even the most impressive performance During that streak. Talk about hype machines. Dimaggio most overrated player in baseball history, makes Jeter appear to be a forgotten player in comparison.

YR is the boxing expert here. He says so, I'll believe it. Otherwise, not so much.


Absolutely agree. I know he was hyped, but I find it hard to think he wasn't a heck of a boxer at the same time.
   189. SandyRiver Posted: February 21, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4373514)
I have little to no preference for US athletes over athletes of other nations and, more importantly, have no interest in seeing world soccer being Americanized in any way, shape, or form.

How is the US an underdog?


"affirmedly root for the US to lose..."? Why would a US entry into the World Cup, almost certainly recognised as the planet's most prestigious and far reaching (in terms of public interest) sporting event and one in which this country's men's team has barely been competitive, appear to be such an "Americanization" threat to the sport that you would hold this opinion? Seems like an overreaction, IMO. Is it because the under-competitive status of the US men's team makes soccer more "pure"?

And until the men's team gets somewhere near to the finals, they are underdogs. Not so for the women.
   190. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: February 21, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4373522)
All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.


I am a A's fan so there was no way in hell I was rooting for the Yankees at any time even if a Pre-historic monster came out of the sea and made off with the Statue of Liberty.
   191. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 21, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4373523)
And until the men's team gets somewhere near to the finals, they are underdogs.

But they aren't structural underdogs. (In fact, they're strucutral overdogs, but that's beside the point.)

The US hockey team in 1980 was a structural underdog.

In even competitions, I'm just not really a sports nationalist anymore. The major sports leagues here and the major sporting leagues in Europe are all multinational and have been for awhile and a guy's nationality doesn't really matter to me. My favorite national soccer team is probably France 1998-02, the team that won the World Cup and Euro 2000.
   192. GuyM Posted: February 21, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4373561)
You honestly believe this?

Sure. I have almost no recall of the 1980 hockey win -- it meant nothing to me at the time. It obviously meant something to plenty of people, but as I said, this is a pretty subjective exercise. Just scanning the SI list (which SBB correctly observed was in order of year, not "greatness"), I would put these ahead of the "Miracle": Bobby Thompson, Jesse Owens in Berlin, Bannister's 4-minute mile, Mays '54 catch, Ali-Liston, Ali-Frazier, Namath/Jets '69, Secretariat triple-crown, King v. Riggs (yes), Aaron 715, Thrilla in Manilla, Game 6 1975 Series, Comaneci 1976 Olympics. OK, that takes me thru the 1970s, so I'll stop there. I would also add Robinson '47 and Louis vs Schmeling. And Jim Thorpe in the 1912 Olympics probably belongs too, but that was a little before my time.....
   193. phredbird Posted: February 21, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4373563)
this puffing up of the US hockey victory in 1980 is ... utter horse hockey. it was a big deal at the time, and a stirring victory yada yada. but that's it. it was a fluke. i don't see how that can be called 'greatest sporting event'.

louis schmeling II was a bigger deal, imho. reading the current accounts it was billed, perceived and later rated as the fight of the century. none of us were around for it, so its hard to say with authority how much that may be so.

but one that most of us CAN remember, ali/foreman, was a much bigger event than the hockey victory.

the run up, the scrutiny, the pearl clutching about how ali was going to get murdered, the shock of his eventual win, and the volumes written about it afterward put that hockey thing in the shade.
   194. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 21, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4373573)
There probably wouldn't be this much vigorous opposition if the '69 Mets or Kirk Gibson's legless HR or Bill Mazeroski were in the 1980 hockey team's place, but they're all representing the same thing.
   195. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 21, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4373579)
Also, y'know, it's hockey.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
   196. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 21, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4373600)
Also, y'know, it's hockey.

Well, yeah. You don't hear Rulon Gardner's name popping up much in these discussions, either.
   197. GuyM Posted: February 21, 2013 at 06:23 PM (#4373607)
It is amazing to think about how much boxing has declined. If you're of a certain age, several fights will definitely make your top 20, maybe even your top 10. But if you're under 30, I imagine it seems pretty weird to think of boxing matches as world-historical events.

Also interesting to see Lance's 7th Tour and McGwire 1998 appear on some "greatest event" lists. I'm suprised the PED police haven't airbrushed those out yet. I'm sure these events will be absent from future lists.
   198. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 21, 2013 at 06:23 PM (#4373609)
"Greatest sporting event in history"? That totally depends on where you're coming from. I'd go with Opening Day, Ebbets Field, 1947, but then again there are a few billion people on Earth who don't care about baseball, not to mention all the "history began on my 8th birthday" types who think it couldn't have happened if it didn't happen within their lifetimes. But all things considered, as a compromise I'd go with game 4 of the 1996 World Series.

Just kidding, tfbg! Just kidding!

"Greatest upset" in a sport's biggest event (other than college football), though, I'd have to go with these:

Baseball: 1906 World Series, "Hitless Wonders" White Sox over the 116-36 Cubs. This is a slam dunk.

College Football: Either 1921 Centre-Harvard or 2007 Stanford-USC

Pro Football: 1969 Super Bowl. Not that it really was that much of an upset in retrospect, but it was certainly seen that way at the time.

College Basketball: 1983 N.C. State winning the whole thing. 1966 Texas Western was a shocker only to those who still thought that brand names should always win. Kentucky was lucky even to be in the final that year.

NBA: Golden State sweeping the Bullets in 1975, one of the very few true upsets in the NBA finals. That was the NBA equivalent of the Dodgers over the A's in 1988.

Boxing: Either Douglas over Tyson or Clay over Liston the first time. Though Ali over Forman wasn't exactly predicted by many people outside the Ali camp.

Horse racing: Donerail's 1913 win in the Kentucky Derby, which paid off at a mere 91 to 1.
   199. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4373614)
The odds of an upset is a World Series are never really that long. If anybody offers you 4-1 on a baseball playoff series, you oughta jump on it.
So, 1906 is mot really that shocking.

An individual baseball game nowadays really only gets to perhaps 4-1...maybe 5-1 somewhere. I don't recall seeing that however.

Villanova beating Georgetown in the 1983 NCAA title game was far more statistically unlikely than any WS "shocking upset". Its just how baseball is.
   200. tfbg9 Posted: February 21, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4373615)
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