Longoria and Price are miffed because they read that recent regression study that concluded that attendance causes home team wins.

It is embarrassing.

There's no legitimate reason for the bad attendance. Bad location? It's right off the freaking highway.

Evan Longoria's agent is an idiot, perhaps now he's realized it and fired whoever it is/was.

The problem with comments like Price isn't that they're not true, because anyone who looks at the Rays' attendance can see that they are. It's that comments like his are often taken by the fans who do go to games as a reflection on them, as much as they're directed against the stay-at-homes. Which makes no sense, but I've seen it happen elsewhere.

FWIW there are plenty of available tickets right behind the plate for tonight's Rays game, ranging from $5.00 in the upper deck to $41.00 for the closest box seats. With prices like that in any other contending city, in a race as close as this, you'd have people lining up around the block. Why the hell baseball ever expanded to the state of Florida is beyond me.

It’s just bad policy, scolding people for not paying their own money to watch you.

Bingo.

It’s just bad policy, scolding owners for not paying their own money to not be seen.

It’s just bad policy, scolding people for not paying their own money to watch you.

Don't the Rays have some of the highest TV ratings? Maybe they should televise fewer games. I know that's a primitive way of thinking, but jaysus...something's gotta change or the team is gone.

Evan Longoria's agent is an idiot, perhaps now he's realized it and fired whoever it is/was.

Yeah, I can't believe Longoria's agent forced him to sign that contract.

If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em.

Florida is just a lousy state for non-spring training Major League Baseball.

The demographics stink. Not too many retirees who want to pay even moderate big league prices.

The Marlins weren't a joke because of the stadium, there were plenty of other things to do that were/are more appealing.

The demographics stink. Not too many retirees who want to pay even moderate big league prices.

On the face of it, this doesn't make much sense. Seniors on average make a pretty good living, and those who move to Florida are likely well above-average in wealth. Moreover, they come from a generation when baseball was the #1 sport in the country. And they have leisure time, so they can go to weekday games.

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

The Marlins weren't a joke because of the stadium, there were plenty of other things to do that were/are more appealing.

There's no place in the world with more appealing things to do than New York, yet that doesn't impact the Yankees and Mets attendance rates.

Why the hell baseball ever expanded to the state of Florida is beyond me.

Don't the Rays have some of the highest TV ratings?

QED?

Isn't the Tampa area one of the most economically depressed parts of the country?

On the face of it, this doesn't make much sense. Seniors on average make a pretty good living, and those who move to Florida are likely well above-average in wealth. Moreover, they come from a generation when baseball was the #1 sport in the country. And they have leisure time, so they can go to weekday games.

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

if you are a senior and moved to fla to enjoy your retirement and a baseball fan, you are probably a fan of the team you rooted for before you moved to fla.

Florida is just a lousy state for non-spring training Major League Baseball.

The demographics stink. Not too many retirees who want to pay even moderate big league prices.

That doesn't explain football attendance however. Florida is an extreme football state, so much so that people who follow baseball are actually thought of as strange and effeminate. I took my son to the Dolphins game Sunday night. Not only were there over 75,000 fans in the stands for a Sunday night game which didn't end until midnight, there were several thousand in the parking lots who had no tickets but paid $25 parking merely to tailgate and be near the action. I don't see that culture changing. Contract the Pirates and Royals and move the well run Marlins and Rays there.

Can we give Florida back to Spain? That way, baseball will be expanding its international reach.

We can do the same with Texas, giving it back to Mexico.

Global branding for baseball!

if you are a senior and moved to fla to enjoy your retirement and a baseball fan, you are probably a fan of the team you rooted for before you moved to fla.

Sure, but the Devil Rays don't play themselves.

Besides, if you're a fan of baseball, won't you go to a baseball game once in a while just for the hell of it? I went to a Pirates-Indians game this year and I don't care a whit for either team.

If you want to argue that seniors aren't a good market to sell season tickets to, I won't disagree, but that doesn't explain the whole phenomenon.

Isn't the Tampa area one of the most economically depressed parts of the country?

Several years ago, my family and I flew down for the weekend to go to some Rays-Red Sox games. Every complaint you hear people make about the stadium, the location, the area are true. While it may be close to the highway, getting back out of the parking lots after the games was an absolute clusterf#ck unless you parked in some special areas with better egress.

In regards to "economically depressed" conditions, I was impressed with how vibrant the area was - bailbondsmen, XXX shops, and pawn shops seemed to be doing a booming business.

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

The Marlins and Rays should try playing more day games, and make sure they're over in time for fans to catch an early-bird special.

Florida is an extreme football state, so much so that people who follow baseball are actually thought of as strange and effeminate.

Texans love football too, as anyone can tell you, but the Astros and Rangers each draw reasonably well -- and when either is contending, the crowds are large.

But "strange and effeminate"? Backward southerners.

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

Too busy guarding the front lawn.

And the Marlins drew reasonably well before the first fire-sale.

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

My uncle lives in Miami. He's in his 70s and he is from Cuba and LOVES baseball. He goes to about one Marlin game a year even though he is fully on board with them as "his" team. Getting out and around at that age can be tough, he hates the constant bombardment of music and as Peaches points out by 10PM he has pretty much turned into a pumpkin. He can usually stay up for the end of the game but he is in bed immediately after the game ends. The idea of staying out until 11:30 (after dealing with traffic, commute, etc...) is not one he is interested in.

And the Marlins drew reasonably well before the first fire-sale.

Wasn't that twelve years ago? Isn't twelve years two thirds of their entire existence?

Several years ago, my family and I flew down for the weekend to go to some Rays-Red Sox games. Every complaint you hear people make about the stadium, the location, the area are true. While it may be close to the highway, getting back out of the parking lots after the games was an absolute clusterf#ck unless you parked in some special areas with better egress.

I went to a Rays game last year, against the Orioles, in fact. Getting in and out was easy, even fighting traffic for the Jonas Brothers at the St. Petersburg Times Forum.

FWIW there are plenty of available tickets right behind the plate for tonight's Rays game, ranging from $5.00 in the upper deck to $41.00 for the closest box seats.

The closest box sets appear to be $210.

The Padres had 26K or so at PETCO Sunday, and a couple of people here got on SD's ass about it. With both SD and TB, I would echo the demographic points. Transplants and seniors are not a good core audience. My dad is in SD, 68, retired, huge baseball fan and in good shape--keeps the weight down and walks three miles every day. But he doesn't go to the park much anymore, for the reasons Jose outlines in #23. At his age, Extra Innings is a much better call.

And, as outlined in #15, it's a cultural thing. The deep south is first and foremost football country. San Diego is an international town (lot of soccer fans here), a transplant town, and to the extent it is a major sports town, a football town. Also, the Chargers have enjoyed more recent success than the Padres.

Finally, I think it is possible that attendance is being held down a little in TB because, as I noted ad nauseum in the other thread, no one except gamblers really gives a damn who wins the AL East. If the Rays play the Yankees in the ALCS, I think the Trop will be jumping with NY transplants and locals trying to shout each other down. The Wild Card giveth, and the Wild Card taketh away.

We had 29,000+ at the Ballpark last night for a Monday school-night game between a team that had clinched first place and a team that had clinched last place. Granted it was a sort of "homecoming" for the new division champs, but still, there was no promotion – there was $2 off beer in the sixth inning, but I don't think that was the big draw.

Texas shares some things with Florida: lots of retirees / expats; inconceivable football mania, as TerpNats says. Good ballpark here, but it's a bit of a drive from Dallas or Ft Worth, let alone the outer suburbs. Maybe the biggest difference is that the economy in Texas has basically ridden out the recession: you'd barely notice the housing crash here, for many reasons.

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

They should start games at 3pm and call them an Early Bird special.

And the Marlins drew reasonably well before the first fire-sale.

Yea, most expansion teams draw well because of the novelty of a new team.

I went to Tampa a month ago and I was expecting an inconvenient trek to the stadium since its used as the excuse all the time, and I found it ridiculously easy. I don't get it.

There were also foreclosure signs everywhere and there was a story in the paper about some lawyer that had made some $20 mill processing foreclosures in the Tampa area.

Maybe the biggest difference is that the economy in Texas has basically ridden out the recession: you'd barely notice the housing crash here, for many reasons.

Probably a factor. But I think the Rangers have more of a cultural connection with the Metroplex (Nolan Ryan, W) than the Rays do with TB. The Rangers have been around a lot longer as well. Also, I don't know for sure, but I think there are lot more retirees in FL than in TX.

And, how many people do you think would have been there if MNF had been Cowboys/Texans?

There were also foreclosure signs everywhere and there was a story in the paper about some lawyer that had made some $20 mill processing foreclosures in the Tampa area.

Tampa has definitely been one of the worst hit areas from the housing bubble-bursting, along with Vegas, Phoenix, and inland southern California.

Edit: According to the Case-Shiller index, home prices in Tampa are down 42% from the '06 peak. Of the 20 largest markets, only Phoenix, Vegas, Miami and Detroit are worse.

It is embarrassing.

There's no legitimate reason for the bad attendance.

I can see why the Rays' players are pissed off, but I don't really get this attitude coming from baseball fans. People not wanting to go to a baseball game in a "race" that is largely a formality is not some sort of civic embarrassment and supporting a baseball team--even a good one--is not some sort of civic obligation that requires a "legitimate reason" to explain away.

But "strange and effeminate"? Backward southerners.

Florida ain't the South, no matter where the hell it is on the map.

Florida ain't the South,

In many respects, that's true. But football, particularly college football, is huge there.

Florida ain't the South, no matter where the hell it is on the map.

Isn't northern Florida the South and southern Florida an outpost of the North? Lynyrd Skynyrd certainly came from the South.

As a senior let me point out practical reasons for someone over the age of 60 keeing their ballpark visits to a minimum:

--we stink at driving. And while we never admit it out loud we know it and avoid situations that highlight this deficiency. Driving at night? Bad idea. Driving on the highway at night? Bad idea. Driving at night on the highway after beddy bye time? Very bad idea

--Steps. Ballparks have lots of steps. Our knees hurt. Our hips hurt. Sh*t, everything hurts. And getting in and out of those stadium chairs can be a real hassle. Ramps help some but it's still incline/decline walking and anything with a grade is a challenge

--Strange territory. Our eyes are bad. We don't hear well. So we get temporarily confused even when the neurons are firing on all cylinders. Put us in a location with LOTS of background noise, lights shining at times in our eyes, folks milling around and we run the risk of looking foolish. And we hate having folks coming up to us and asking if we need help when it is just momentary, "What the f*ck?" that is the issue.


So yes we have money. And yes we enjoy baseball. But it can be an ordeal to go to the ballpark.

I can see why the Rays' players are pissed off, but I don't really get this attitude coming from baseball fans. People not wanting to go to a baseball game in a "race" that is largely a formality is not some sort of civic embarrassment and supporting a baseball team--even a good one--is not some sort of civic obligation that requires a "legitimate reason" to explain away.

The thing that gets me is why these games weren't sold earlier in the year. The Rays got off to a fast start and were obviously going to be in contention much of the year, they shouldn't be needing walk up sales. I don't expect every city to be Boston/NY/Philly level but to draw as poorly as they have with this team does not say much for the potential of the area to support a team. I feel bad for the people there that are legitimate fans.

People not wanting to go to a baseball game in a "race" that is largely a formality is not some sort of civic embarrassment and supporting a baseball team--even a good one--is not some sort of civic obligation that requires a "legitimate reason" to explain away.

No, but if Stu Sternberg manages to successfully persuade Selig that he should be allowed to move his team to New Jersey, I don't want to hear any whining from people in the Tampa Bay area. They have a team right now that almost every fanbase in baseball would love to watch and they don't go to watch it. Any seat in the upper deck is available for under $15 for tonight's game and I bet most people in the area can still afford that.

I feel bad for the people there that are legitimate fans.

I agree with that, and I will feel bad for those people if the Rays move. I also, as noted, understand Price and Longoria getting frustrated and popping off about it. But I don't get the chiding of people for not wanting to go to the ballpark or why Tampa as a collective entity should be "embarrassed." And like I said I think the joint will jump if the Rays make the ALCS. It did in '08.

As a senior let me point out practical reasons for someone over the age of 60 keeing their ballpark visits to a minimum:

You forgot:

"Where the hell is Joe Adcock? He retired?!?!? And died?!?!?! Why was I not informed?"

and

"What is this garbage music they're playing? Why aren't they playing Perry Como?"

But I don't get the chiding of people for not wanting to go to the ballpark or why Tampa as a collective entity should be "embarrassed." And like I said I think the joint will jump if the Rays make the ALCS. It did in '08.

They limited the number of seats on sale in the upper deck because they were worried all the tickets wouldn't sell... that's not "jumping" to me.

I actually wouldn't half mind Perry Como over some of the awful music you hear at the ballpark. "Sweet Caroline," indeed.

Isn't northern Florida the South and southern Florida an outpost of the North? Lynyrd Skynyrd certainly came from the South.

That'd be Jacksonville, I suppose. Never been to that side of the state, but from what I gather it's pretty redneck (I'm casting no aspersions there -- for all intents & purposes, I'm trailer trash once removed; after I sold the ramshackle old house I grew up in in rural SW Arkansas, it was razed & replaced by a trailer), so probably you're right.

My uncle lives in Miami. He's in his 70s and he is from Cuba and LOVES baseball. He goes to about one Marlin game a year even though he is fully on board with them as "his" team.

Okay, but you make it sound like he doesn't go to games much. Going to one game a year is actually well above average for Americans. If every senior in Florida went to one game a year the Rays' and Marlins' attendance problems would be over.

we stink at driving. And while we never admit it out loud we know it and avoid situations that highlight this deficiency. Driving at night? Bad idea. Driving on the highway at night? Bad idea. Driving at night on the highway after beddy bye time? Very bad idea

Which prompts the question, why should Jose's uncle or any other senior have to drive to the games? If I were the Devil Rays, I'd send charter buses around to Del Boca Vista and every other retirement community in the area. Sell ballgame packages to the communities, say 5-10 games a year, at discounted group rates, and bus them all out to the park. Have the buses pull up to a special gate, ushers to help them find seats, get to the bathrooms, etc.

If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed must go to the mountain.

And like I said I think the joint will jump if the Rays make the ALCS. It did in '08.

They'll sell out a 40k seat stadium if they make it to the second round of the playoffs? Sounds like a business plan to me!

Shouldn't seniors be a slam-dunk demographic for baseball? Do they just have problems staying awake during games?

It's certainly not the staying awake part, since I'm up till midnight or 1:00 every night and get along fine on 5 or 6 hours sleep.

Where I now live (Kensington, MD) is about halfway between Camden Yards and the Nats stadium, and I used to go to as many as 25 or 30 games a year at Griffith Stadium, DC Stadium (RFK), Memorial Stadium, and Camden Yards from the 50's through the 90's. Why don't I go to games any more?

---Parking / transportation. All of the above parks, with the exception of Griffith Stadium and CY on weeknights, had plenty of free street parking. And Griffith Stadium was 20 minutes away by dirt cheap public transport. This is only partly a matter of cost, and more a matter of how much time you waste waiting for a parking lot to clear. I have little or no patience for traffic jams.

---Ticket prices for good seats. This isn't much of a reason for not going to CY, since I don't mind the upper deck at their prices, but I'm not going to pay up to $26 just to sit in the upper deck behind home plate in Nats Park, for a team as helpless as the Nats. And as long as Angelos owns the Orioles, forget it unless it's a BTF meetup.

---The noise level. I'd love to see how many 20 year olds would show up if the loudspeakers were blasting Sinatra between every inning and between every pitch. If the "marketers" don't realize just how offputting the non-stop artificial noise noise is to any serious baseball fan, they're even dumber than I thought. How many people would they alienate by either turning the volume down or eliminating the BS altogether? Is their opinion of their fan base really that low?

---The existence of ExtraInnings as a MUCH better alternative. To be honest, the availability of every game, every night, for about 60 cents a day pro-rated over the course of a year, has spoiled me for anything else. Watch the Yankees, Red Sox or Rays for 60 cents, or the ####### Orioles or Nats for a total layout of about 40 or 50 bucks? Are you kidding me?

---The pathetic teams. This ain't the Orioles some of us used to know, and it ain't the Rays, and as long as Angelos owns the team, it's never going to change. I'll let the Redskins fans keep believing in fairy tales.

Obviously I'm speaking only for myself, but it all adds up to the sort of experience where you get the sense that you have little or no control over anything, from forcing you to park in a lot with no serious alternative, to forcing you to listen to some twentysomething's idiotic music almost nonstop for three or more hours. Thanks, but no thanks.

Which prompts the question, why should Jose's uncle or any other senior have to drive to the games? If I were the Devil Rays, I'd send charter buses around to Del Boca Vista and every other retirement community in the area. Sell ballgame packages to the communities, say 5-10 games a year, at discounted group rates, and bus them all out to the park. Have the buses pull up to a special gate, ushers to help them find seats, get to the bathrooms, etc.

This is America. Buses are for poor people and children. You will not abridge the right of nonagenarians to pilot their Buicks at whatever speed and with whatever visual acuity they choose.

I'd love to see how many 20 year olds would show up if the loudspeakers were blasting Sinatra between every inning and between every pitch.

That would be a violation of the Geneva Convention.

This is America. Buses are for poor people and children. You will not abridge the right of nonagenarians to pilot their Buicks at whatever speed and with whatever visual acuity they choose.

Seniors love tour buses, dude.

They'll sell out a 40k seat stadium if they make it to the second round of the playoffs? Sounds like a business plan to me!

Their real business plan revolves around the truckloads of free money they receive from more popular clubs every year. You wouldn't want to risk killing the golden goose over some wacky pie-in-the-sky "build a fanbase" scheme, would you?

I'd love to see how many 20 year olds would show up if the loudspeakers were blasting Sinatra between every inning and between every pitch.

That would be a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Perhaps so, but Camden Yards makes Guantanamo seem like a Five Star Geneva hotel.

Seniors love tour buses, dude.

Only if they're going to Atlantic City or Foxwoods.

Isn't northern Florida the South and southern Florida an outpost of the North? Lynyrd Skynyrd certainly came from the South.

Southern Fla within a few miles of the water is Northern, but inland is just as Southern as the Northern parts.

They don't call it the Gunshine State fer nuthin...

Seniors love tour buses, dude.

This Senior would gladly settle for a New York subway system.

This is America. Buses are for poor people and children.

Don't forget hippie homo socialists who hate America and want us to live in caves.

Hard to believe, but if you were of college age when Elvis Costello's "Pump It Up" (which is occasionally played in ballparks -- it used to be Curt Schilling's warmup music at the Vet) was first popular, you are probably now eligible to join AARP.

Hard to believe, but if you were of college age when Elvis Costello's "Pump It Up" (which is occasionally played in ballparks -- it used to be Curt Schilling's warmup music at the Vet) was first popular, you are probably now eligible to join AARP.

I'm not familiar with that song. I assume it's for old people like Curt Schilling.

No, but if Stu Sternberg manages to successfully persuade Selig that he should be allowed to move his team to New Jersey, I don't want to hear any whining from people in the Tampa Bay area. They have a team right now that almost every fanbase in baseball would love to watch and they don't go to watch it. Any seat in the upper deck is available for under $15 for tonight's game and I bet most people in the area can still afford that.

You're kind of the stereotype of the mouthy east coast team fan, running down Sunbelt fanbases because they're not Boston (you were one of the guys pissing on San Diego yesterday). Been hearing it for 20 years. It's great that the Red Sox sell out every game; power to them and their fans. But every city is different, and sports are not really a big-picture issue at the end of the day. Trivia question: how many people saw Ted Williams' last game in Fenway?

"Whining" is a largely meaningless term designed to mock people; if Sternberg moves the team, the people who are into the Rays will talk and write about it, and TB civic leaders will talk about it in public. Nature of the beast.

And, I have no problem with teams moving to places where they can make more money. Also Nature of the Beast. The Rays moving to Jersey or Brooklyn and being a geographic rival for the Axis of Evil is fine with me.

Maybe the Deviled Eggs are the canary in the coal mine for sports: attendance declining to what it was a generation ago. Their attendance is about 1.8 million...essentially the same the Boston Red Sox drew from 1967 to 1977. cert Fenway is smaller than the Trop. But the Red Sox have been drawing over 2.8 million for the last few years. NFL attendance has been down every year since 2006..in part helped by money-grubbing owners like John Mara and Woody Johnson. Bristol used to be the hottest ticket in NASCAR but they didn't sell out their two races this year and they had company at most other tracks.

I also think with affordable large screen HD-TVs, cable packages, the internet, etc, no ballpark is as convenient as your recliner and refrigerator. Especially as Harvey Wallbanger says, when you get older you hurt more and find it harder to put up with traffic, staying up, stadium noise, etc.

Does the Deviled Eggs ownership spend much time complaining about the stadium, traffic, poor attendance, etc? If they do, that may not help matters...telling your customers that their experience at the ballpark won't be good.

Blasted music, whether it be Sinatra, Yo-Yo-Ma, Lady Gaga, or Metallica, might be the worst part of attending a sporting event. I won't complain about prices of beer, food or any other item at the ballpark, just turn the ###### music off. (Age 34).

They'll sell out a 40k seat stadium if they make it to the second round of the playoffs? Sounds like a business plan to me!

See line 1, post 57.

Blasted music, whether it be Sinatra, Yo-Yo-Ma, Lady Gaga, or Metallica, might be the worst part of attending a sporting event. I won't complain about prices of beer, food or any other item at the ballpark, just turn the ###### music off. (Age 34).

I thoroughly agree, though Yo-Yo Ma might be kind of fun. "Cotton Eye Joe" is the worst part of any Yankees home game, win or lose.

You're kind of the stereotype of the mouthy east coast team fan, running down Sunbelt fanbases because they're not Boston (you were one of the guys pissing on San Diego yesterday). Been hearing it for 20 years. It's great that the Red Sox sell out every game; power to them and their fans. But every city is different, and sports are not really a big-picture issue at the end of the day. Trivia question: how many people saw Ted Williams' last game in Fenway?

The same 10,454 fans who later moved to St. Pete along with the 23,154 fans who saw Roger Maris's 61st home run, and who now seem to account for a sizable percentage of the Rays' total attendance.

Sell ballgame packages to the communities, say 5-10 games a year, at discounted group rates, and bus them all out to the park

This is a good idea. Wonder if they have tried it.

But as far as last night, it was a Monday Night game against the Orioles, with very little at stake, actually. Yes, it was a "clincher", but there is no suspense in the AL East right now.

Don't forget hippie homo socialists who hate America and want us to live in caves

Do caves have basements?

Blasted music, whether it be Sinatra, Yo-Yo-Ma, Lady Gaga, or Metallica, might be the worst part of attending a sporting event. I won't complain about prices of beer, food or any other item at the ballpark, just turn the ###### music off. (Age 34).

I thoroughly agree, though Yo-Yo Ma might be kind of fun. "Cotton Eye Joe" is the worst part of any Yankees home game, win or lose.

Of course another outstanding advantage of ExtraInnings is that other than an occasional "Day-O", the only Yankee Stadium noise that you hear over the TV comes from the crowd.

The same 10,454 fans who later moved to St. Pete along with the 23,154 fans who saw Roger Maris's 61st home run, and who now seem to account for a sizable percentage of the Rays' total attendance.

I know YOU know that one. But I have asked a few transplanted SD Red Sox fans (five of them) who don't have Metamucil and wheat germ for breakfast that question, and they are 0-fer so far.

Caves? La de dah, if that ain't posh, you pampered perfumed effete little ponce. My people lived in cardboard boxes, and bloody grateful to have them, too.

As I've said before, I still think it takes time to build a fanbase in places where most everyone over the age of 12 already had a favorite team before the new kids came in. (I also wonder if certain locales, like Tampa, have something about the makeup of the population that makes it harder to convert the residents to the new team than maybe a place like Denver). Perhaps a generation of kids need to grow up with the Rays as the hometown team before it's clear if the area can effectively support baseball. It seems to me if you move the Rays somewhere else, you're just restarting that process in another location.

I know if I lived in Tampa, I'd still be a Red Sox fan. But I wouldn't be suprised, however, if the youngest of the Unacceptable children (sadly, the only baseball fan of the trio) spurned the Sox for the Rays.

I know if I lived in Tampa, I'd still be a Red Sox fan. But I wouldn't be suprised, however, if the youngest of the Unacceptable children (sadly, the only baseball fan of the trio) spurned the Sox for the Rays.

As a parent, I would deem that, uh, unacceptable. No offspring of mine will support some jumped up Johnny-come-lately Sunbelt lemonade stand team.

You're kind of the stereotype of the mouthy east coast team fan, running down Sunbelt fanbases because they're not Boston (you were one of the guys pissing on San Diego yesterday). Been hearing it for 20 years.

You've got your coasts wrong. San Diego deserves to get run down, considering their divisional rival, my hometown, has nearly sold out their entire weekend series vs. San Diego already. One team's fans are excited, the other can't wait to not go to Charger games.

I sat in the lower RF seats in the Ballpark last night, and though the music/noise seemed muffled there, there was a new annoyance to contend with from that angle. The Rangers have installed a bright band of LED screens along the facing of the second deck: they show ads and "Make Noise" animations and the occasional bit of scoreboard information. Sometimes these bands are brighter than hell, and when you watch from a lower OF seat you can't avoid staring into them. The result is a headache and quite a bit of afterimage when you look away. Players on the field must be OK because they're low enough that their caps block the LED image, and they are used to coping with lights on fly balls anyway. But man, what a visual assault on the fan.

I don't get some of this stuff at ballparks, truly. I know that ads are supposed to be annoying and persistent and eat at your mind and soul. But are they actively supposed to blind you so that you can't see them?

I also think with affordable large screen HD-TVs, cable packages, the internet, etc, no ballpark is as convenient as your recliner and refrigerator. Especially as Harvey Wallbanger says, when you get older you hurt more and find it harder to put up with traffic, staying up, stadium noise, etc.

Absolutely. I'm 39 and going to games is a huge pain in the ass and not very pleasant. I set out at the beginning of this season to go to more live games. And I did. But I quickly found, whether it was a sold out MLB game or a A game with 1000 people or a college game with 35 people that the experience just wasn't pleasant. It was loud and most of the action was not on the field. I find watching the game on TV at home to not simply be more pleasant, but I'm actually able to see more of any particular game. Some due to replay but even without that, no one is yelling at me during crucial moments as they are in the stadium.

So, I'm probably back to watching from the couch next year. I may try some high school and Legion games and hope like hell they don't have piped in noise between every ####### pitch there now, too.

When I lived in Miami Beach, I found the natural accent of native-born whites (all 10 of them) to be similar to a New York accent.

As a parent, I would deem that, uh, unacceptable. No offspring of mine will support some jumped up Johnny-come-lately Sunbelt lemonade stand team.

After the first two Unacceptable offspring let me down by having no interest whatsoever in baseball, I'll take what I can get. Fortunately, he seems to be following his old man's interest in the Red Sox, so that's nice.

Now if he became a Yankee fan, I'd disown the SOB. Hell, I've already told the budding ballplayer that if he someday made the big leagues and signed with the Yankees, I still wouldn't root for them.

You're kind of the stereotype of the mouthy east coast team fan, running down Sunbelt fanbases because they're not Boston (you were one of the guys pissing on San Diego yesterday). Been hearing it for 20 years. It's great that the Red Sox sell out every game; power to them and their fans. But every city is different, and sports are not really a big-picture issue at the end of the day. Trivia question: how many people saw Ted Williams' last game in Fenway?

"Whining" is a largely meaningless term designed to mock people; if Sternberg moves the team, the people who are into the Rays will talk and write about it, and TB civic leaders will talk about it in public. Nature of the beast.

And, I have no problem with teams moving to places where they can make more money. Also Nature of the Beast. The Rays moving to Jersey or Brooklyn and being a geographic rival for the Axis of Evil is fine with me.

I think you'd have a point if the Rays fans only looked unfavorable against Red Sox attendance, but their overall attendance is slightly higher than that of the last place Orioles. 12,446 fans came to see the Rays possibly clinch last night. 19,307 Royals fans came out to see the Royals win their 64th game of the year last night. But maybe I'm just the stereotype of a mouthy midwest team fan.

Now if he became a Yankee fan, I'd disown the SOB. Hell, I've already told the budding ballplayer that if he someday made the big leagues and signed with the Yankees, I still wouldn't root for them.

As a Yankees fan, I'd prefer my kid went for the Red Sox, a team with some history and gravitas, to the Rays or Diamondbacks or what have you. Odds are, they'll end up with the Tigers, though.

As a Yankees fan, I'd prefer my kid went for the Red Sox, a team with some history and gravitas, to the Rays or Diamondbacks or what have you. Odds are, they'll end up with the Tigers, though.

That's easy to explain. As a Yankee fan, you know deep down that rooting for the Red Sox would make you a better person. As a Red Sox fan, I know that rooting for the Yankees permanently stains the soul.

If I were the Devil Rays, I'd send charter buses around to Del Boca Vista and every other retirement community in the area.

That would just get you hundreds of confused seniors wandering around the parking lot arguing about whose fault it was that they got on the wrong bus.

if you were of college age when Elvis Costello's "Pump It Up" ... was first popular, you are probably now eligible to join AARP.

Raises hand sheepishly.

I may try some high school and Legion games and hope like hell they don't have piped in noise between every ####### pitch there now, too.

No piped in noise at the HS games I attend, but I can also tell you from personal experience that HS baseball is a lot more compelling when your own kid is pitching.

That's easy to explain. As a Yankee fan, you know deep down that rooting for the Red Sox would make you a better person. As a Red Sox fan, I know that rooting for the Yankees permanently stains the soul.

The Yankees and Red Sox need one another. They are two sides of the same gold coin. The Rays are a wooden nickel.

The Rays moving to Jersey or Brooklyn and being a geographic rival for the Axis of Evil is fine with me.

You really think the Welfare Rays would pony up that sort of dough to pay for the territory?

Serious question to any marketers out there: Are there any studies that show that all the ear-shattering noise actually increases attendance among younger fans, enough to offset the loss of attendance from fans who hate it? The idea that people decide to attend a ballgame because of the bells and whistles makes about as much intuitive sense as the old line about "I only buy Playboy for the interviews."

I hate to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me if all this extraneous BS is largely the product of a few people talking their way into the offices of some middle aged marketing exec, and convincing them that since "young people like music," we have to give them music non-stop from the time the gates open until the time they walk out into the night. And then the lemming effect takes over, and everyone does it.

I'd be interested to see the results of an objectively run poll among randomly selected self-described baseball fans that offered the following four options:

"Bells and whistles" is a term used to describe the various between innings and between pitches events and music at baseball games these days, such as loud music and animated races on the scoreboard. Which of the four statements best describes your reaction to them?

1. I go to baseball games in part because of the bells and whistles, and I'd be less likely to go to as many ball games if they weren't part of the ballpark experience.

2. I go to baseball games in spite of the bells and whistles, but if they cut them out, I'd still go to as many games as I do now.

3. I'm a baseball fan, but I'd rather watch games on TV, and the bells and whistles don't matter one way or the other.

4. I find the bells and whistles to be annoying, and if they were either eliminated or greatly reduced in volume, I'd be likely to attend more games.

Yea, most expansion teams draw well because of the novelty of a new team.

No, they haven't. Most expansion teams had lackluster draws initially --- Arizona, Denver, Toronot, and Florida were the exceptions.

Now if he became a Yankee fan, I'd disown the SOB

Not too long ago, my five-year old said "I'm mad at you daddy, so I like the Yanks now." That got him a "What did you say? WHAT DID you say to me??!!"

The piped in noise is there to mask the ridiculous amount of time they waste between innings and during pitching changes. Time passes much more quickly when you have something to complain about.

I know YOU know that one. But I have asked a few transplanted SD Red Sox fans (five of them) who don't have Metamucil and wheat germ for breakfast that question, and they are 0-fer so far.

Wait, they didn't know the attendance figure of a game that took place 50 years ago? The horror.

How many people were at the Oakland A's first May home game in 1974?

The Brewers have "nights" for towns across Wisconsin but the onus is the locale to organize the transportation. But it's always a big hit to see their group announced on the scoreboard during the game.

I do agree that if the organization worked with the community and would arrange for the transportation on specific dates then senior groups would be more inclined to attend games.

That really is the big inhibitor.

We are basically sitting on a mountain of cash. If folks don't want to help us spend it then some TV preacher will relieve us of this burden.

Run an old-timey night. In addition to the uniforms (ushers included), no music except for a genuine organ, Sell cracker-jacks for a quarter. Sell tickets only at the gate. Wear a tie and get 15% off. I guarantee a sell-out...okay, I can't guarantee that.

We are basically sitting on a mountain of cash. If folks don't want to help us spend it then some TV preacher will relieve us of this burden.

I have seen the LIGHT, oh brothers and sisters and I am starting my own internet ministry right here and right now! Please fill out those checks to "CASH."

Wear a tie and get off.

Who am I, Michael Hutchence?

Run an old-timey night. In addition to the uniforms (ushers included), no music except for a genuine organ, Sell cracker-jacks for a quarter. Sell tickets only at the gate. Wear a tie and get 15% off.

Sounds like too much work.

If folks don't want to help us spend it

I'm pretty sure your kids and grandkids would love to help you spend it, Harv. Maybe even at the ballpark.

Yes, yes, yes, someone PLEASE do something about the incessant cacophony at these games. (For the record, I'm 36. Way too young to be a cranky old man, but old enough to remember baseball games before every spare second in a game was filled with ear-shredding noise.)

If I wanted to be overwhelmed by deafening music, I'd go to a dance club or perhaps a concert/show.

if you were of college age when Elvis Costello's "Pump It Up" ... was first popular, you are probably now eligible to join AARP.

Raises hand sheepishly.

Same here. I bought that album during my 2nd freshman semester. *sigh*

One of the advantages of following a team that is trying to alienate its fans is that A's games have less of that crap.

Wear a tie and get off.

Who am I, Michael Hutchence?

I can't guarantee that either.

San Diego deserves to get run down, considering their divisional rival, my hometown, has nearly sold out their entire weekend series vs. San Diego already. One team's fans are excited, the other can't wait to not go to Charger games.

Like I said yesterday, I like the fact you don't like SD. We have enough dumbass transplants here already, myself included.

I know you are in SF, but I thought you were a Red Sox fan. As to SF/SD, like SoSH suggests, the Giants have more of a tradition, were in it last year, etc. The Padres have been down for a few years, and it tends to take time for that to catch up. And I suspect there will be a fair number of transplanted Padres' fans at the games in SF next weekend.

As far as Sunday, it was a really hot day, so a lot of people stayed home, BBQd, and followed both the Chargers and Padres on the flatscreen. And some people hit the beach, as they do when we get a little extra beach weather.

12,446 fans came to see the Rays possibly clinch last night. 19,307 Royals fans came out to see the Royals win their 64th game of the year last night. But maybe I'm just the stereotype of a mouthy midwest team fan.

Maybe so. Like a lot of people, you seem to superimpose the demographics/baseball tradition of where you live onto other cities, and then say or imply, "Why aren't these people awesome baseball fans like me and my buddies are?"

Wasn't that twelve years ago? Isn't twelve years two thirds of their entire existence?

The 1998 fire sale, repeated ######## about getting a new stadium, another fire sale, actively shopping the team to Portland, Charlotte and Las Vegas and then finally a new ballpark for $2 billion. All the while downsizing the amenities of Pro Player to the point where there are likely more concessions at your average AA park.

Loria would have Montreal'ed this team had it not been for Beinfest et. al.

Wait, they didn't know the attendance figure of a game that took place 50 years ago? The horror.

I wasn't looking for a number; I was looking for awareness that the nobody gave a sh1t about the Red Sox in those days. They lacked it.

Or, to put it another way, there was no legitimate reason for the ballpark to be less than 1/3 full for the final game of a baseball legend and American hero like Ted Williams. It must have been embarrassing.

But I quickly found, whether it was a sold out MLB game or a A game with 1000 people or a college game with 35 people that the experience just wasn't pleasant. It was loud and most of the action was not on the field. I find watching the game on TV at home to not simply be more pleasant, but I'm actually able to see more of any particular game. Some due to replay but even without that, no one is yelling at me during crucial moments as they are in the stadium.

Hmm whereas I find the opposite. I like the shouting and cheering -- makes me feel part of the event. I can see more of what goes on, even with replay -- take football, where they show a closeup of the QB's facemask until two seconds after the snap.

But that aside, the atmosphere at a live game is so much better than being at home alone. I see games on TV all the time, there's no novelty there.

The main things keeping me from seeing games in person is not living in cities with major sports teams.

I have seen the LIGHT, oh brothers and sisters and I am starting my own internet ministry right here and right now! Please fill out those checks to "CASH."

Forget a bunch of checks, write down those prayers you want answered on the back of a hundred dollar bill and send them to me, Reverend Billy Bob, at...

Seriously, I'm closer in age to Harvey's and Andy than many of you and I agree with them 100% on the extraneous noise issue, it is just too damned loud at the ballpark. I "like" music but the last thing I want at a ballgame is to have to hear it at 120 decibels anytime there is a break in the action. I served my time in front of the amps 40 years ago and have the tinnitus to prove it; I shouldn't have to risk bleeding from the ears just to watch baseball. If its any consolation it is worse at indoor arenas; I went to a Pacers games a couple of years ago and had to leave in the third quarter, at an outdoor stadium there is some chance that the sound will travel out and away from you, indoors it just reverbrates.

Now, where is that mountain of cash that we older people are supposed to be sitting on? I seem to be trapped in the flatlands of semi-poverty.