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Friday, December 06, 2013

Yankees agree to three-year contract with Carlos Beltran

The Yankees have agreed to a three-year contract with Carlos Beltran, reports Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News .

Repoz Posted: December 06, 2013 at 10:57 PM | 102 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. frannyzoo Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4612745)
Beltran turns 37 a few weeks after Opening Day, 2014. Only three years, Yankees? C'mon you could easily go five or six.

What is the highest average age of a baseball team in MLB history?
   2. J. Sosa Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4612748)
Oof. I'm not the swiftest when it comes to keeping up with salary inflation, but 3/45 sounds like a lot. Is that a lot? I don't think more than 2/24 would be all that great. 3/45... I dunno. It may be my Red Sox tinted glasses.
   3. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:11 PM (#4612750)
Seems like a surplus of outfielders.
   4. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:19 PM (#4612753)
Such a shame. I used to like Beltran too.
   5. Urkel's Boner Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:22 PM (#4612754)
I can only hope this will be followed by an announcement that Alfonso Soriano will be moving back to second base.
   6. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4612760)
Damn. So now what are the Royals going to do?
   7. catomi01 Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:30 PM (#4612761)
I can only hope this will be followed by an announcement that Alfonso Soriano will be moving back to shortstop.
   8. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:33 PM (#4612766)
So now the Yankees have Ellsbury, Gardner, Beltran, Soriano, Ichiro!, and Wells to rotate between three OF positions and maybe DH. Is someone going to get traded?
   9. cardsfanboy Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:35 PM (#4612767)
3 years? Really.... I know it seems miniscule but I would have signed him for two with a vested option for a third, but no way do I give a three year guarantee.

Well good luck, hopefully his second bite of the Apple does enough to cement his hof legacy (but I'm hoping he doesn't get a ring in that time frame.)
   10. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:37 PM (#4612768)
The youth movement has begun!
   11. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:37 PM (#4612769)
Ellsbury - CF
Jeter-SS
Beltran - RF
Tex - 1B
McCann - C
Soriano - DH
Johnson - 2B
Gardner - LF
Nunez - 3B

That infield doesn't exactly make one tremble.

   12. Shoebo Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4612773)
So Alfonso Soriano is available ?

   13. jacjacatk Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:43 PM (#4612775)
What is the highest average age of a baseball team in MLB history?


'06 Giants were 34.1.

   14. SG Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:44 PM (#4612776)
(but I'm hoping he doesn't get a ring in that time frame.)


Pretty sure you'll get your wish unless he gets traded to a contender.
   15. Shoebo Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:45 PM (#4612777)
Oliver 5 year projections

wRC+ projection next 3 years, 119,109, 98

Feels about right. Steamer projects 123 for 2014
   16. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4612778)
What is the highest average age of a baseball team in MLB history?



'06 Giants were 34.1.


How so? According to BBREF, their batters averaged 33.6 and the pitchers 28.7. The 05 Yankees were 32.4 and 34.2
   17. haven Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4612779)
Can't believe there is any quibbling about this deal. 3/45 for Beltran seems incredibly cheap to me compared to Granderson 4/60. Sadly I view this as great deal for the Yankees. So much better than the Mariners Cano debacle it is ridiculous. And people here are worried about PT for Ichiro/Wells. Really?
   18. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:55 PM (#4612781)
Granderson is 4 years younger than Beltran and can still play defense.
   19. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4612782)
#16--I think it's because there are different ways to calculate, depending on how or whether you weight by playing time.
   20. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: December 06, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4612783)
Granderson is 4 years younger than Beltran and can still play defense.

Beltran's '14 defense shouldn't be an issue; the following two years might, however.
   21. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:00 AM (#4612784)
So now the Yankees have Ellsbury, Gardner, Beltran, Soriano, Ichiro!, and Wells to rotate between three OF positions and maybe DH. Is someone going to get traded?


Why would you worry about "rotating in" Ichiro or Wells? You bench or release them.
   22. jacjacatk Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4612786)
How so? According to BBREF, their batters averaged 33.6 and the pitchers 28.7. The 05 Yankees were 32.4 and 34.2


Just going off this, http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2006.shtml, not sure if they're weighting it or something. Must be doing something weird, given that it lists a different average for both teams if you look at the list for player fielding or player value.
   23. jacjacatk Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:07 AM (#4612790)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/misc_glossary.shtml

The pitching team ages are a bit complicated to compute, so I'll start with the batting ages. For batting, I just used the weighted average of the ages of each player on the roster. The age was weighted by the player's at bats + games. This gives a bit of a boost to widely used bench players.

For pitching age, I weighted the ages by 3 * GS + G + SV, so a starter's results will be weighted by 130 or so, a good reliever by 60 and a closer by 90 or so. I like the values this gives to various members of the pitching staff.
   24. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:07 AM (#4612791)
Just going off this, http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2006.shtml, not sure if they're weighting it or something.


When you go to Franchise Encyclopedia, it gives 33.6 for the batting age for the same team.
   25. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:12 AM (#4612793)
'06 Giants were 34.1.


John McGraw really loved his veterans.
   26. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:15 AM (#4612796)
the Mariners Cano debacle


Aw, blow it out your butt.
   27. Döner Kebap Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:49 AM (#4612814)
Can't believe there is any quibbling about this deal. 3/45 for Beltran seems incredibly cheap to me compared to Granderson 4/60. Sadly I view this as great deal for the Yankees. So much better than the Mariners Cano debacle it is ridiculous.


Hilarious.
   28. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:52 AM (#4612816)

YankeeSource 11:14pm via Web

Carlos Beltran in the postseason (51 games): .333/.445/.683/1.128 16 HR, 40 RBI, 35 BB, 24K.

..........

don't underrate this issue - the neanderthals who call WFAN always complain about Cano, Tex, Swisher and postseason, mainly because the team didn't win that year.

of course, if Beltran goes 0 for 5 in Game 1 of ALDS in 2014, cancel the goodwill and he's not a true Yankee...

   29. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:53 AM (#4612817)

website doubled me up...
   30. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:00 AM (#4612822)
of course, if Beltran goes 0 for 5 in Game 1 of ALDS in 2014, cancel the goodwill and he's not a true Yankee...

Because they will have traded him?
   31. Boxkutter Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:30 AM (#4612832)
As a Mariner fan, I much rather would have preferred for us to have signed Granderson and Beltran for their combined $105MM and 30MM a year for only 4 years (3 for Beltran). Shoot, and then we could sign Choo too. I wouldn't mind seeing an OF of Beltran-Granderson-Choo for the next 3-4 years in Seattle. It's not like we have any OF prospects to block or anything worth a snot on the ML Roster. Of our top 10 prospects, 7 are pitchers according to Fangraphs. Of the three hitters, one is a 1B/3B, one is a SS, and Austin Wilson, at #10, is an OF and likely 2-3 years away.
   32. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:38 AM (#4612835)
And people here are worried about PT for Ichiro/Wells. Really?
No, not really. They're questioning the decision to spend $200 million to upgrade an OF that's cromulently full when the infield, rotation and bullpen are a mess (they did sign McCann + Kuroda, fair enough).
   33. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:47 AM (#4612837)
They're questioning the decision to spend $200 million to upgrade an OF that's cromulently full when the infield, rotation and bullpen are a mess


This.

With Cano gone, Jeter & ARod sclerotic, and Tex at the depressing part of his career, the Stinks really needed a solid patch in the IF, especially because Jeter & ARod are going to need reps at DH and should probably both be playing 3B when they're in the field. Honestly, I expected them to make a play for JJ Hardy or Stephen Drew this offseason. I guess it's not out of the question, but Beltran was really not a dude they needed.
   34. bobm Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:50 AM (#4612839)
Seems like a surplus of outfielders.

Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of outfielders?
   35. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2013 at 02:37 AM (#4612844)
Maybe they will make either soriano or beltran the DH
   36. Walt Davis Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:40 AM (#4612855)
I can't keep up with all the Cano threads so I'll dump this here.

ZiPS projections for Cano are: 5.5, 5.2, 5.0, 4.6, 4.0, 3.3, 2.8, 2.2, 1.6, 1.1

That comes out to 35 WAR ... as the mean (or median projection).

No f'ing way. No way.

As a "realistic upside" ... maybe. Not as the expectation. No way.

That WAR count would be the 22nd greatest age 31-41 WAR of the expansion era. Only 10 players have topped 40 -- which, for a 10-year projection, has to be substantially less than a single standard deviation. Boggs, Molitor, Chipper and Morgan are the only "Cano types" that have topped 40 and Kent is the only other one to reach 35.

Again, sure, it's certainly a reasonable possibility that Cano will match those guys ... but it can't possibly be the expectation.

He is #11 in WAR (post-expansion) from ages 27-30. As is often the case, he is as close to #3 and he is to #21. Boggs and Morgan are ahead of him and they did well. Utley's ahead of him too and he's quite unlikely to reach 30 much less 35. Ripken's ahead of him but ... not so much. ARod -- 30 and counting. Carew is just behind him but he only made it to 30.

You do have to fall back quite a bit to start finding other decent comps. Trammell at 23 WAR 27-30, added another 19. Brett at 23 added another 29. Tejada, Rolen.
   37. Morph Posted: December 07, 2013 at 05:31 AM (#4612858)
Year one could be really good with Beltran being able to DH, and right field at Yankees Stadium not very defensively demanding. Two and three are way more dicey. Would have preferred a two year deal, but the market is insane. Maybe my "idea" of Carlos Beltran is interfering with a truly rational analysis. I'm a huge fan, admittedly. Think this first year should be fun, at least. If the Yankees finish their offseason by signing Infante and Tanaka, I believe that's a competitive team. Obviously, Tanaka still needs to be posted. Sure, the next couple of years might be disappointing. Everything might break wrong. Life goes on. Losing a player to a crazy offer is nothing to weep over. What? You heard me crying earlier? That wasn't me.

Consider this when comparing Beltran and Granderson: the former has played in pitcher's parks in recent years, while the latter has enjoyed a stadium perfectly tailored to his swing. Granderson is younger and still has defensive value. I wouldn't be surprised to see Beltran have a superior offensive season in 2014, however. Also: Granderson is younger, but he isn't that young anymore. Not trying to knock Granderson. I hope he hits thirty five for the Mets this season. They should hit him second, IMO.
   38. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 07, 2013 at 06:03 AM (#4612859)
the Stinks really needed a solid patch in the IF


That doesn't even rhyme with Yanks! It doesn't rhyme!
   39. Blastin Posted: December 07, 2013 at 07:36 AM (#4612862)
People seem to be speaking about this entire offseason as if it is in the past. No, the infield and rotation aren't very good RIGHT NOW. It's December 7th.
   40. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 07, 2013 at 08:44 AM (#4612869)
This is disappointing. Cardinals then Yankees? Why is Beltran trying to make me hate him?
   41. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 09:16 AM (#4612871)
Maybe they will make either soriano or beltran the DH


They'd actually make a pretty damn good, if fantastically expensive, platoon. Beltran's a switch hitter in theory but sucks pretty bad against lefthanders.

Ichiro seems to be the forgotten man here. Isn't that odd?
   42. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: December 07, 2013 at 09:39 AM (#4612874)
Ichiro could be remembered if he wanted to?
   43. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: December 07, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4612877)
That doesn't even rhyme with Yanks! It doesn't rhyme!


OK. The Stanks.
   44. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4612900)
This is disappointing. Cardinals then Yankees? Why is Beltran trying to make me hate him?


Bonus: he took less money to come to the Yankees. Which is the second time he's offered that (he called Cashman just before signing with the Mets and offered to take less to be a Yankee).
   45. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 11:09 AM (#4612935)
Carlos is probably one of my five favorite Royals of all-time, but three years would have been crazy for KC. Yanks can afford carrying him that third year when he's a 1 WAR player who needs to DH, but that would have killed the Royals. Good luck Carlos, hope you play well but your team sucks.
   46. Colin Posted: December 07, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4612957)
So if A-Rod beats (or shortens) the suspension, Brian McCann would be the youngest player in their lineup? Wow.
   47. Banta Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:01 PM (#4612970)
This is disappointing. Cardinals then Yankees? Why is Beltran trying to make me hate him?


It makes calling him Piss Tits seem almost derogatory now!
   48. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4612979)
That doesn't even rhyme with Yanks! It doesn't rhyme!


It's short for Stinkees.
   49. Conor Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4612981)
They'd actually make a pretty damn good, if fantastically expensive, platoon. Beltran's a switch hitter in theory but sucks pretty bad against lefthanders.


For his career he's been better as a right handed hitter. 847 OPS as a left handed hitter, 878 as a right handed hitter. He wasn't all that great against them last year, but he was better from the right side of the plate in both 2011 and 2012. (Not much though, because he's Beltran and he's awesome at everything). I haven't followed him as closely as I did when he was a Met, but is there any reason to think the split last year was anything other than a small sample size deal?
   50. salvomania Posted: December 07, 2013 at 12:43 PM (#4612996)
Beltran's a switch hitter in theory but sucks pretty bad against lefthanders.

I think it was a random thing---He was better from the right side for several years before last year, and he still slugged .450 vs LHP last year, but his walk rate plummeted so his OBP was low, dropping his OPS.
   51. Scott A Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4613019)
questioning the decision to spend $200 million to upgrade an OF that's cromulently full


Disagree totally:

1) You think before adding Ellsbury/Beltran, an OF of Gardner (solid), Soriano (strong hitter, bad defense), and 2 replacement-or-worse oldies (Wells & Ichiro) was "full," much less so "cromulently" full you had to break out the thesaurus to describe how full it was?

2) What other FA should they have spent $200m on -- or even $50m on -- for the IF? The IF free agent pickings lack any real star, and (a) they signed Kelly Johnson; (b) they'll probably add Mark Ellis or Infante (I'd prefer Ellis).

3) My guess is they decided that with the FA IF pool weak, they'll sign the strong FA C/OF folks, and trade for whichever of 3B/2B (maybe one of their 4 spare catchers, Cervelli or the prospects) they can.
   52. puck Posted: December 07, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4613040)
much less so "cromulently" full you had to break out the thesaurus to describe how full it was?

Someone looked up "cromulently" in the thesaurus?
   53. PreservedFish Posted: December 07, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4613046)
Scott A must have assumed that it was an obscure and ancient word.
   54. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4613053)
The Yankees have embiggened their payroll.
   55. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4613058)
they'll probably add Mark Ellis or Infante (I'd prefer Ellis).


I think I'd prefer Infante because I think he could handle SS in a pinch. Then if Jeter can't play SS *at all*, they can play Infante at SS, Johnson at 2B, and bring in Ryan in the last couple of innings for defense.

I would sign Eric Chavez to play 3B -- Johnson can give him regular rest, and if A-Rod gets a short-ish suspension, Chavez will still be able to play fairly regularly when A-Rod DHs. That gives them an acceptable infield, and a hell of an outfield.

I'd look around and see what kind of return they can get for Gardner, partially because he's the most likely to get them something valuable in return, but also out of respect for Gardner, so that he can be in a strong position to get a good contract next season.
   56. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4613074)
Scott A must have assumed that it was an obscure and ancient word.


I wonder if he knows where that word comes from. It's possible he was making a joke about looking it up in the thesaurus or it's possible he didn't know the origin of the word, it could go either way I guess(nothing wrong if he didn't know of course, just would be surprised of anyone on here not knowing that word)
   57. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4613075)
No, not really. They're questioning the decision to spend $200 million to upgrade an OF that's cromulently full when the infield, rotation and bullpen are a mess (they did sign McCann + Kuroda, fair enough).


A week ago the OF featured Gardner, Soriano, Wells, and Ichiro. That is a mess on its face. A bloody mess. Only Gardner is someone you want to feature in an OF. Soriano -- Yankees fans seem to have forgotten this because he played well in his 250 PA for the Yankees -- is barely playable. As is Ichiro, who set career lows in BA/OBP/SLG (and EqA, OPS+, whatever you want to name - though I grant that bWAR shows him as good in fielding, baserunning, and DP avoidance, which is literally all he has left at this point although he simply didn't look good in the field towards the end of the year). Wells isn't playable at all. And these guys are virtually certain as a group to decline, since they're 40, 38, and 35 years old.
   58. Greg K Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4613076)
I wonder if he knows where that word comes from. It's possible he was making a joke about looking it up in the thesaurus or it's possible he didn't know the origin of the word, it could go either way I guess(nothing wrong if he didn't know of course, just would be surprised of anyone on here not knowing that word)

It wouldn't surprise me if one could find it in a thesaurus these days. The revolution has succeeded!
   59. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:09 PM (#4613082)
I can't keep up with all the Cano threads so I'll dump this here.

ZiPS projections for Cano are: 5.5, 5.2, 5.0, 4.6, 4.0, 3.3, 2.8, 2.2, 1.6, 1.1


This is no knock on Dan since, well, if you want to have a rational projection system what else is it supposed to do, but all ZiPS has done here is draw a straight line down for Cano, which any of us could have done ourselves given 60 seconds and a pencil. The only interesting thing here is that ZiPS starts the projections at 5.5 WAR even though Cano has averaged about 7 WAR over the past three seasons. So I'd probably have started at about 6.5 WAR. And I'd have sprinkled in some up and down seasons along the way, since players don't really age exactly in a downward slope from season to season unless the player is just completely shot; the slope is generally downward over a period of years. The variance in BABIP alone tends to ensure that.

A good player projection system churns out results that are very boring and that look fake since they actually aren't all that reflective of what actually happens in real life (such as above where ZiPS projects a 0.4-0.7 WAR drop each and every season for a player in his 30s). But on average the projections will be close to real life when you grade it on the basis of how it projected many players as a group, which is what the designed of a projection system is going for if he wants to be taken seriously in the field.

The more interesting projection system to me is one that takes chances, that is aggressive in predicting breakouts or steep drop-offs. Of course, such a system will be wrong a lot more than ZiPS will be.

If I wanted to project a player in my head I'd take a three-year weighted average and add an age adjustment and come up with a number. I imagine most projection systems go further to look at BABIP and such, but a three-year average of some sort is going to get you pretty close anyway.

(As an aside, something really odd is going on with Seattle's park such that it is really difficult to hit there and it's stalled a few careers recently. I would have thought long and hard about that were I Cano, although probably not too long or too hard once "240 million" made an appearance.)
   60. SteveF Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:18 PM (#4613092)
I think Walt's more or less right on the money about that projection. It's not crazy to think that Cano could end up having that career. What's crazy is the idea that he's as likely to exceed those numbers as he is to fall short of them.
   61. greenback likes millwall Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4613093)
all ZiPS has done here is draw a straight line down for Cano

ZiPS projects on an aging curve, not the trend over the last X years.

Beltran didn't look like he could hold up for a full season during his time in St. Louis. I would be aggressive about letting him DH as much as possible, because he still has the talent to go bonkers if he gets the rest he needs.
   62. Greg K Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4613095)
Beltran didn't look like he could hold up for a full season during his time in St. Louis. I would be aggressive about letting him DH as much as possible, because he still has the talent to go bonkers if he gets the rest he needs.

Problem is you could say the same thing about A-Rod (or even McCann). Only so many DH at bats to go around!
   63. greenback likes millwall Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4613100)
Problem is you could say the same thing about A-Rod (or even McCann). Only so many DH at bats to go around!

Yes. I guess the takeaway is that the Yankees aren't such a great fit for Beltran. Somebody like Dexter Fowler probably makes more sense, but that's not the way the Yankees work.
   64. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 03:48 PM (#4613112)
Would Shin-Soo Choo at a higher AAV and probably twice the years have made more sense?
   65. BourbonSamurai Is a Lazy Nogoodnik Posted: December 07, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4613138)
I would've really liked to see him as a Royal again but I think he'll do well as a Yankee.
   66. DL from MN Posted: December 07, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4613147)
Don't they just cut Vernon Wells and all the problems are solved? An OF of Ellsbury, Gardner and Ichiro is above average defensively. They can rotate Soriano and Beltran at DH. Somebody is bound to be injured at any given time. Soriano used to play 2B, any reason he can't play at 1B now?
   67. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4613150)
Don't they just cut Vernon Wells and all the problems are solved? An OF of Ellsbury, Gardner and Ichiro is above average defensively. They can rotate Soriano and Beltran at DH. Somebody is bound to be injured at any given time.

Jeter's going to play a lot of DH.
   68. DL from MN Posted: December 07, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4613152)
I'm not convinced Jeter's going to play a lot, period.
   69. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: December 07, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4613155)
Would Shin-Soo Choo at a higher AAV and probably twice the years have made more sense?

There's the $189M payroll limit, otherwise, yes. It's strange to see the Yanks pursue the inferior player possibly because of payroll constraints.
   70. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 06:12 PM (#4613166)
There's the $189M payroll limit


Goal not a mandate.
   71. cmd600 Posted: December 07, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4613167)
There's the $189M payroll limit, otherwise, yes. It's strange to see the Yanks pursue the inferior player possibly because of payroll constraints.


I'm pretty confident that once all their expenses are accounted for (mainly arbitration to Gardner, Robinson, and Nova and the $10M in benefits) they're over $189M.
   72. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4613168)
There's the $189M payroll limit

Goal not a mandate.


An admirable goal by all accounts, nobody wants to have money confiscated by a a third party hell-bent on undermining your success.
   73. cmd600 Posted: December 07, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4613171)
An admirable goal by all accounts, nobody wants to have money confiscated by a a third party hell-bent on undermining your success.


Since you think it bears repeating, then it bears repeating that the Yankees make more than enough money under the current setup that despite the confiscation, they can afford to spend more foolishly than anyone else and barely feel the sting. Poor them.
   74. Zach Posted: December 07, 2013 at 06:42 PM (#4613179)
I'm a big Carlos Beltran fan, and I would have loved to see him with the Royals again, but I was getting antsy at the thought of a three year contract. The Yankees can swallow $15 million a year for a veteran on the downside of his career (do they do anything else nowadays?), but the Royals would need him to deliver in the third year as much as the first.

I was always mystified why the Yankees didn't try to get him 10 years ago.
   75. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 07:02 PM (#4613181)
I was always mystified why the Yankees didn't try to get him 10 years ago.


Because they had set a budget and used it up on Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright, in an effort to win the 2004 ALCS in 2005.
   76. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 07:09 PM (#4613182)
An admirable goal by all blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


Yes, we all know the stupid #### you believe on this subject.
   77. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4613189)
Yes, we all know the stupid #### you believe on this subject.


And boy, between you here and Sarah Palin everywhere else there's no shortage of authorities on stupid #### preening for all to see.
   78. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 09:04 PM (#4613231)
And boy, between you here and Sarah Palin everywhere else there's no shortage of authorities on stupid #### preening for all to see.


You're not a bad guy, but the "poor little Yankees" act is way, way beyond old at this point. It's just acting like a jerk for the sake of acting like a jerk.
   79. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 09:20 PM (#4613234)
Yeah, I'm the jerk for pointing out the institutional inequity, not the guys hurling the invective and personal insults. Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
   80. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 07, 2013 at 09:47 PM (#4613240)
I don't understand why you haven't blocked him.
   81. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:04 PM (#4613250)
On all subjects other than the luxury tax, YR is an interesting, valuable poster. It's just this one subject on which he's a ridiculous pain in the ass.
   82. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:05 PM (#4613251)
I don't understand why you haven't blocked him.


Because it's an interesting point of view, even if it's 90% wrong.

An admirable goal by all accounts, nobody wants to have money confiscated by a a third party hell-bent on undermining your success.


The choice was a hard cap or a soft cap with some type of penalty. I much more prefer the soft cap idea, as it still allows the owners freedom of choice, and of course a hard cap has pretty much ruined all the other sports. I still wish there was more teeth in the leagues ability to force the low spenders to attempt to be competitive, but that is much harder thing to do. A salary floor is idiotic as the A's, Rays and other low cost teams have proven, it would be stupid for them to be forced to spend a minimum if they can be competitive on a budget.

Of course I think that if a team hasn't posted a .500 record in 3 seasons and has a salary below 50mil, there is an argument they should be required to spend more...drawback is that there is no way to absolutely guarantee they can get the players in free agency that they need and if they have to reach a budget through trade, they could be mortgaging their future.
   83. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4613253)
Yeah, I'm the jerk for pointing out the institutional inequity, not the guys hurling the invective and personal insults. Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.


A) The primary institutional inequality in this situation is the Yankees' ability to triple the payroll of small-market teams, as you of course know full well. The Yankees have benefitted immensely from this inequality over the years.

B) There's a difference between advocating a point of view and repeatedly shoehorning that topic into every discussion to which it has even a tangential connection over a period of several years, and derailing actual conversation on the real topic.
   84. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4613258)
B) There's a difference between advocating a point of view and repeatedly shoehorning that topic into every discussion to which it has even a tangential connection over a period of several years, and derailing actual conversation on the real topic.


You know what derails actual conversations on real topics? Snivelers initiating personal insults unprovoked.

I'd love to stay and trade barbs with y'all but I've got a date with some mutants. See ya on STEAM!
   85. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4613259)
And C), the guy describing other posters as "authorities on stupid #### preening for all to see" should not be complaining about people spreading invective and personal insults.
   86. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:42 PM (#4613264)
You know what derails actual conversations on real topics? Snivelers initiating personal insults unprovoked.


If a series of otherwise-reasonable people are directing insults at you over this particular stance and the form of your advocacy for it, you might want to stop for a minute and think about why that is.
   87. PreservedFish Posted: December 07, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4613265)
I actually appreciate the effort that YR puts into registering his repetitive complaints with fresh language.
   88. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 07, 2013 at 11:40 PM (#4613285)
I was always mystified why the Yankees didn't try to get him 10 years ago.

Because they had set a budget and used it up on Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright, in an effort to win the 2004 ALCS in 2005.


Don't forget Tony Womack!

In the "sign anybody who once did something against us in October" sweepstakes, the only surprising thing about the 2005 Yankees front office is that they didn't make a bigger push to sign Pete Incaviglia, who'd hit .500 against them in the 1996 ALCS.
   89. Dale Sams Posted: December 08, 2013 at 01:50 AM (#4613349)
SO....

McCann: "Yes he McCann!!"
Ellsbury: "He Ellsburies it into the right field bleachers!"
Beltran: "Another notch on the belt for Beltran!"

Brendan Ryan:"....What. The. F**K."
   90. tshipman Posted: December 08, 2013 at 02:09 AM (#4613359)
I'm pretty confident that once all their expenses are accounted for (mainly arbitration to Gardner, Robinson, and Nova and the $10M in benefits) they're over $189M.


Yeah, this. I don't see how they're not over 189.
   91. PreservedFish Posted: December 08, 2013 at 02:14 AM (#4613361)
If I knew anything about 40s and 50s Broadway I would come up with better Sterling possibilities.
   92. RollingWave Posted: December 08, 2013 at 02:15 AM (#4613362)
of course, if Beltran goes 0 for 5 in Game 1 of ALDS in 2014, cancel the goodwill and he's not a true Yankee...


Playoffs? we talking about Playoffs? for a 85 win team with a 79win pythag, who had their 7 win 2nd baseman sign with another team, a combined 5 win retire in Mo and Pettitte, and their 2nd highest WAR coming in the form of 38 year old Hiroki Kuroda?

PLAYOFFS???!?!?!

Not so bold prediction, Carlos Beltran will never get a post season plate appearance in Yankee uniform.
   93. Dale Sams Posted: December 08, 2013 at 02:33 AM (#4613370)
If I knew anything about 40s and 50s Broadway I would come up with better Sterling possibilities.


"Dinger dinger dinger goes the home run, clang, clang, clang goes Beltran."
   94. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: December 08, 2013 at 02:55 AM (#4613377)
Yeah, this. I don't see how they're not over 189.

If my crude, crude math is accurate, and assuming they are on the hook for ARod (which is a huge wildcard) they have about 16m left for 12 roster spots. 3 of whom will probably be getting about 4-5m each in arb money.
   95. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 03:16 AM (#4613380)
I only skimmed it but I have no idea what YR and Vlad are fighting over.
   96. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 07:16 AM (#4613400)
I only skimmed it but I have no idea what YR and Vlad are fighting over.


We aren't fighting. He started in on his "revenue sharing is theft" riff, Joost got pissed off, and YR acted like he had no idea why he was upset. So I told him.
   97. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 10:09 AM (#4613433)
Yeah, this. I don't see how they're not over 189.


They seem to be operating under the assumption The Centaur's money won't be counted, no?
   98. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 11:16 AM (#4613470)
If a series of otherwise-reasonable people are directing insults at you over this particular stance and the form of your advocacy for it, you might want to stop for a minute and think about why that is.


Let me think about it...

We aren't fighting. He started in on his "revenue sharing is theft" riff, Joost got pissed off, and YR acted like he had no idea why he was upset. So I told him.


The fact that you pumpkins still can't tell the difference between the Yankee Tax and Revenue Stealing tells me all I need to know about the seriousness with which you approach these topics.
   99. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4613471)
And C), the guy describing other posters as "authorities on stupid #### preening for all to see" should not be complaining about people spreading invective and personal insults.


Did I initiate the invective, or did I respond using the specific language directed at me? I just want to get some idea of whether or not you personally think people are allowed to defend themselves in kind against unprovoked slurs.
   100. GeoffB Posted: December 08, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4613541)
SO....

McCann: "Yes he McCann!!"
Ellsbury: "He Ellsburies it into the right field bleachers!"
Beltran: "Another notch on the belt for Beltran!"

Brendan Ryan:"....What. The. F**K."


First Cano HR upon his return to Yankee Stadium:

"Robinson Cano!!! Where d'ya go???"
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