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Monday, July 07, 2014

Yankees Fan Caught Sleeping In Stands Sues Everyone For Defamation

What a dope.

Jim Furtado Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:35 PM | 89 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: lawsuits, yankees

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   1. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:42 PM (#4745701)
Vinko Bogataj should come to this guy's door, laugh in his face and leave.
   2. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:44 PM (#4745703)
Top of the 4th, Red Sox/Yankees.... it was probably getting on to 11:30 Eastern time. I can understand being sleepy at that hour.
   3. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4745705)
It's been a long time since my Law of Mass Communications class in college, but...this is a giant load of crap that's going nowhere, right?
   4. Fat Al Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4745713)
You really really have to peruse the complaint. I don't know who Valentine A. Okwara is, but the idea that he or she is a practicing (and I use this term very loosely) member of the New York bar is frightening.

   5. Transmission Posted: July 07, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4745719)
Thanks for the tip, # 4. That's fantastic.

"Nothing triggered all these assertions only that the plaintiff briefly slept off while watching the great game something or circumstance any one can easily found them self."

"John Kruck in his verbal attack insinuated that the plaintiff is individual that know neither history nor understood the beauty or rivalry between Boston Red Sox and New York Yankee."
   6. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 07, 2014 at 10:10 PM (#4745722)
The U.K. has figured out loser pays, but nope, not here. The trial lawyers lobby is no joke.
   7. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 07, 2014 at 10:14 PM (#4745724)
What a dope.

Looks like another lawsuit is on the way.
   8. JE (Jason) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:01 PM (#4745760)
Watching that video reminds me of a vintage Warner Wolf telecast. ("And Mr. G was at the game!")
   9. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:05 PM (#4745763)
This'll go about as far as Boehner's threatened lawsuit against Obama.
   10. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:36 PM (#4745786)
You really really have to peruse the complaint. I don't know who Valentine A. Okwara is, but the idea that he or she is a practicing (and I use this term very loosely) member of the New York bar is frightening.
Admitted in 2013. Attended the "University of Buckingham." It's not the worst grammar I've ever seen from a lawyer, but it's close.
   11. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:38 PM (#4745788)
This'll go about as far as Boehner's threatened lawsuit against Obama.
ALL THE WAY TO BENGHAZI?!
   12. Greg K Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4745791)
"University of Buckingham."

Its website claims it is the only independent university in the UK. So that's something. The Quality Assurance Agency in the UK rates their degrees as "limited in confidence".

On the plus side, nearby Milton Keynes is home to one of the best baseball teams in the country.

   13. tshipman Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:57 PM (#4745797)
This'll go about as far as Boehner's threatened lawsuit against Obama.


Remember a little while back, Andy, when you claimed you never tried to hijack threads that were not political already?

This is a great example of your common practice.
   14. boteman Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:03 AM (#4745804)
IANAL, so I'm curious if that could have been written by an intern or clerk or other flunky with dim prospects of going much further?

If I'm the client, I'm looking for a new attorney at that point. But then again, this client doesn't strike me as the sharpest razor in the box, either.
   15. theboyqueen Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:27 AM (#4745814)
If you're the client, what the hell other attorney is going to file a suit this stupid?
   16. madvillain Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:43 AM (#4745821)

If you're the client, what the hell other attorney is going to file a suit this stupid?


Heck, it's already worth it's weight in gold for both of them pub wise. Kid prolly gets a talk show or two in NYC about it and the lawyer as well. What else they got going on?
   17. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:47 AM (#4745824)
The lawyer alternately spells Kruk's name correctly and then as "Kruck."

But then, against all odds, the lawyer both uses the word "vituperative" and spells it correctly.

   18. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:05 AM (#4745830)
I'm not sure about NY, but the lawyer might be censured for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Because this is a ####### joke.

Also, I didn't know that someone from the UK could take the bar without going to a US law school. That's not the case for other foreign nationals who I know who had law degrees from overseas.

eta: Huh: http://www.nybarexam.org/Foreign/ForeignLegalEducation.htm
   19. shoelesjoe Posted: July 08, 2014 at 02:20 AM (#4745844)
Lionel Hutz: And so ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I rest my case.

Judge Snyder: Hmm. Mr Hutz. Do you realize you're not wearing any pants?

Lionel Hutz: I... Ahh!

[David Crosby shakes his head in shame]

Lionel Hutz: I move for a 'bad court thingy'.

Judge Snyder: You mean a *mistrial?*

Lionel Hutz: Yeah! That's why you're the 'judge' and I'm the 'law talking guy?'

Judge Snyder: The *lawyer?*

Lionel Hutz: Right.
   20. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 08, 2014 at 02:28 AM (#4745845)
Top of the 4th, Red Sox/Yankees.... it was probably getting on to 11:30 Eastern time. I can understand being sleepy at that hour.


Nope.
From the look of him he's probably just tired from that 20K run he did that morning followed by the cross training session in the afternoon.
   21. baerga1 Posted: July 08, 2014 at 06:24 AM (#4745852)
You all should lay off the lawyer. He obviously wrote it in his sleep, so cut him some slack.
   22. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 06:30 AM (#4745853)
Good look with this, tubby.
   23. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 08, 2014 at 06:36 AM (#4745854)
This attorney will be some cable news network's newest legal analyst in three, two, one...
   24. Captain Supporter Posted: July 08, 2014 at 06:59 AM (#4745856)
Good look with this, tubby

Careful, he'll sue you.
   25. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 08, 2014 at 07:04 AM (#4745857)
If you're the client, what the hell other attorney is going to file a suit this stupid?
Ms McGunnigle was recently a juror on a civil trial, in which a woman sued her daughter because the woman allegedly stepped in a hole under a bush in the daughter's yard, and this somehow led to chronic headaches. The defense presentation concluded with the lawyer waving a piece of paper and saying, "I have numerical numbers with information!"
   26. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: July 08, 2014 at 07:19 AM (#4745861)
I don't know who Valentine A. Okwara is, but the idea that he or she is a practicing (and I use this term very loosely) member of the New York bar is frightening.

Dude, have you been paying attention to some of the idiots here on this site who claim to be lawyers?
   27. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 07:27 AM (#4745863)
Good look with this, tubby

Careful, he'll sue you.


It'll never make it to a trial, the courthouse has stairs.
   28. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:01 AM (#4745871)
america has always been litigious. i have read articles on the number of lawsuits filed in the mid-1800's and on a per capita basis it makes today look like the rookie league. i particularly liked the ones filed because someone claimed that so and so put a hex on a relative and now the relative is a financial burden on the family.

on a side note, agree with tship. this political stuff has a home for pete's sake. crawl there and stay there already.
   29. bunyon Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:16 AM (#4745873)
I thought anyone could take the bar. Do you have to be a law school graduate to do so?
   30. Lassus Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:25 AM (#4745879)
Eh. It's a frivolous lawsuit that shouldn't have been brought, but it's not close to the worst I've ever heard of. I know none of you would sue if you were publicly mocked as a fat sleeping slob on national television, but it isn't like every last one of you here would be laughing with everyone at the joke either.
   31. Scott Lange Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:31 AM (#4745880)
Am I the only one getting just three pages of the complaint? Does anyone know where I can see the whole thing?
   32. villageidiom Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:39 AM (#4745885)
Careful, he'll sue you.
It's not defamation if it's true.
   33. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:47 AM (#4745889)
fat sleeping slob

insert caucasian in the mix and that captures the bulk of bbtf, correct?
   34. BrianBrianson Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:52 AM (#4745892)
No Harvey, I'm awake.
   35. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:56 AM (#4745894)
#30 - it's not the frivolousness folks are reacting to, it's the pleading. This "lawyer" gets everything wrong.
   36. Fat Al Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:58 AM (#4745896)
I thought anyone could take the bar. Do you have to be a law school graduate to do so?


Rules vary state by state. In NY, you have to either graduate from an accredited law school or do an apprenticeship (which I have heard is subject to fairly onerous rules and standards). You generally can't just take the bar. It would put law schools out of business (without expressing any opinion on whether that would be a good or a bad thing).
   37. JE (Jason) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:03 AM (#4745898)
The lawyer alternately spells Kruk's name correctly and then as "Kruck.

"Crock" would be more accurate.
   38. Fat Al Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:06 AM (#4745900)
Am I the only one getting just three pages of the complaint? Does anyone know where I can see the whole thing?


I haven't been able to find a complete version either.
   39. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4745911)
I know none of you would sue if you were publicly mocked as a fat sleeping slob on national television, but it isn't like every last one of you here would be laughing with everyone at the joke either.
Except that he wasn't; during the telecast he was mocked only for sleeping.
   40. Howie Menckel Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:26 AM (#4745919)

not that I believe the complaint for a second, but it claims words were "stupor, fatty, unintelligent, stupid" used by John "Kruck."
   41. McCoy Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:29 AM (#4745923)
Was Kruk talking about himself? Maybe that is where the confusion lies.
   42. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:31 AM (#4745926)
17. Plaintiff alleges that MLB.Com, juxtapositions of photos and text of two men kissing each other and caption "sleeping Yankee's Fan cares not for your rivalry talk" falsely implied that plaintiff engaged in that type of conduct described or portrayed by the picture. In light of all the surrounding circumstances.


In other words, new #### has come to light
   43. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4745933)
Isn't this more of a misappropriation of his image for a public purpose type cause of action? I know there are waivers in the very tiny print on tickets, but I think that if you're just a dude, and nothing newsworthy relating to the game is happening around you, and then they focus on you for a long time and talk about you and post pics of you and clips of you to the internet, all the while making money off of how ridiculous you looked (which is essentially what happened here), that's really a misappropriation cause of action rather than defamation.

   44. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:47 AM (#4745940)



Was Kruk talking about himself? Maybe that is where the confusion lies.


Did he say:

fat sleeping slob with one ball


?
   45. winnipegwhip Posted: July 08, 2014 at 09:53 AM (#4745947)
I know how this will end:

Judge: Will the plaintiff and defense please rise.

ZZZZZZZZZZZ
   46. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4745964)
not that I believe the complaint for a second, but it claims words were "stupor, fatty, unintelligent, stupid" used by John "Kruck."
None of those words were used during the broadcast.

EDIT: One thing I did read yesterday (Yahoo? Sportsline?) suggested that the things mentioned in the lawsuit were in the comment sections of a couple of websites that posted the video, not the video itself. But how could anyone sued (ESPN, MLB, the commentators) have any control over anonymous online commenters on unaffiliated websites?
   47. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4745973)
It's a frivolous lawsuit and the lawyer will probably be sanctioned for not doing the most basic research to accurately state what Kruk and Shulman said on the broadcast. The lawyer did not make a reasonable inquiry into the facts and had zero basis to state some of what is alleged in the complaint.
   48. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:39 AM (#4745974)
But how could anyone sued (ESPN, MLB, the commentators) have any control over anonymous online commenters on unaffiliated websites?


Because INTERNET and MONEY and STUFF!
   49. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:41 AM (#4745976)
This guy was aware that teh Derek Jeter was playing right?
   50. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4745978)
Also, I didn't know that someone from the UK could take the bar without going to a US law school. That's not the case for other foreign nationals who I know who had law degrees from overseas.


The requirements vary from state to state. In California you can sit for the bar with nothing more than a law license from a foreign country - but then again, CA is the toughest exam in the country. New York's requirements are also fairly lenient - I think a foreign law license plus a US LLM, as long as you have a handful of core class requirements in your LLM, will allow you to sit. A handful of other states have similar requirements. In many states you have to have been practicing law for 5 out of the last 7 years in your home country.
   51. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4745986)
In California you can sit for the bar with nothing more than a law license from a foreign country - but then again, CA is the toughest exam in the country.


It's been (oh, god) eight years since I took the NY bar and six or seven since I paid any attention to bar news (looking up the NY bar's released essay questions because I'm fun), but is it that CA has the most difficult exam or that your first point really controls and a lot more peeps take that state's test (foreign, unaccredited law schools, etc.) and bring down the passing average? I recall CA and a few other states (TX? LA?) having three day exams, which sounded miserable, but I don't knwo if CA's exam itself was any more challenging than others.
   52. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4745989)
It's frankly a bizarre filing and sort of feels like it was done to harass the defendant, given the craptastic spelling/punctuation mistakes and such. If you're going to try to spin this smelly straw into gold you should at least put more effort into trying to come up with a legal theory, or at least into making the thing look professional. Step one is getting the basic facts right. Step zero is using proper spelling and grammar.

Defamation? What was the false statement of fact that harmed the plaintiff's reputation? I think the lawyer would have been better off trying for some sort of misuse of likeness claim.

A seventh grader could have turned in a better complaint.
   53. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 08, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4745992)
It's been (oh, god) eight years since I took the NY bar and six or seven since I paid any attention to bar news (looking up the NY bar's released essay questions because I'm fun), but is it that CA has the most difficult exam or that your first point really controls and a lot more peeps take that state's test (foreign, unaccredited law schools, etc.) and bring down the passing average? I recall CA and a few other states (TX? LA?) having three day exams, which sounded miserable, but I don't knwo if CA's exam itself was any more challenging than others.

I believe CA has a bunch of unaccredited law schools (IIRC they can be admitted to the bar in CA but not other states) which are the real money-grab in legal education.

Given that the accredited law schools churn out far more grads than the economy demands, an unaccredited institution is a poor gamble.
   54. I Am Not a Number Posted: July 08, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4745993)
This guy was aware that teh Derek Jeter was playing right?

That explains why Jeter wasn't getting to those balls hit to short.
   55. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 08, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4746012)
is it that CA has the most difficult exam or that your first point really controls and a lot more peeps take that state's test (foreign, unaccredited law schools, etc.) and bring down the passing average?


Probably both. CA is indeed a three-day exam with an extra day of essays, so I'd say that's objectively more difficult than other states' in that you're less able to punt, say, wills/trusts or commercial paper because it's twice as likely (ish) to come up on the exam. But of course the scoring is scaled against CA test-takers, so that's a different concept for relative difficulty.

That explains why Jeter wasn't getting to those balls hit to short.


Jeter playing short explains why Jeter wasn't getting to those balls hit to short.
   56. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4746022)
But how could anyone sued (ESPN, MLB, the commentators) have any control over anonymous online commenters on unaffiliated websites?


Heck, under current law you can't even sue the unaffiliated websites for what their commenters say.

is it that CA has the most difficult exam or that your first point really controls and a lot more peeps take that state's test


It's the hardest test in the country by a significant amount. When you look at CA passage rates for very good schools they're much lower than those schools usually do. Columbia, for example, is a top 6 law school in the rankings. It had a passage rate of 73% (32 of 44 takers) for first time applicants in 2013.

   57. boteman Posted: July 08, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4746032)
@djsziff: If "Napping Yankee fan" lawsuit is real, then (1) why no case number on Compl., (2) why no sig. page, and (3) why: http://t.co/FDDnEe0upm

And yous guys call yourselves "lawyers"???
   58. BDC Posted: July 08, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4746036)
I'd feel embarrassed if somebody video'd me staying awake at a Ranger game this year.
   59. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4746045)
@djsziff: If "Napping Yankee fan" lawsuit is real, then (1) why no case number on Compl., (2) why no sig. page, and (3) why: http://t.co/FDDnEe0upm


1: It hasn't been filed
2: No one scanned in the signature page

   60. haggard Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4746050)
If someone called me a "Yankee fan", I'd want to sue.
   61. Rennie's Tenet Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4746068)
So it looks like George had a case?

Costanza eating ice cream on TV
   62. Srul Itza Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:50 PM (#4746101)
But then, against all odds, the lawyer both uses the word "vituperative" and spells it correctly


Spellcheck recognizes vituperative and knows how to correct it.

Spellcheck does not always recognize proper nouns and capitalized words, and sometimes is set to ignore it.
   63. Srul Itza Posted: July 08, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4746105)
For those who do not know New York law (and maybe it has changed), New York WAS (when I practiced there) one of the few states where you do not have to file the complaint initially. You started it by serving the summons and complaint, and then file the lawsuit (by buying an index number, and later by filing a "Request for Judicial Intervention" if you wanted to file a motion. You could start a lawsuit, take discovery, and settle the matter, without any public knowledge of the action, if you never needed to go to Court to resolve something.

Is it still like that?
   64. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4746149)
Isn't this more of a misappropriation of his image for a public purpose type cause of action?
No. The relevant cause of action here would be the use of his image for trade or advertising purposes, but that's not what happened here. (And, no, the mere fact that it is a commercial broadcast does not make it for trade or advertising purposes.)
   65. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4746155)
Srul: you're correct for NY.
   66. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4746176)
america has always been litigious. i have read articles on the number of lawsuits filed in the mid-1800's and on a per capita basis it makes today look like the rookie league.

It's a grand tradition we get from Ye Olde Countrie. One of the only reasons we know anything about the lives of most writers in Elizabethan and early Stuart England is that they were constantly in court for one thing or another. They were constantly suing each other, being sued by each other, getting sued by creditors, suing debtors, suing to get out of debtors prison, getting sued by people they had threatened violence against (there was a restraining order taken out on Shakespeare), and so forth. And that's not including the straight up crimes -- Ben Jonson's murder conviction, Christopher Marlowe's sideline in counterfeiting. Court was a major spectator sport, and the plays of the period are riddled with technical legal terminology that the writers probably picked up watching from the galleries. People seem to love the Common Law and want to use it as much as possible.
   67. Adam G Posted: July 08, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4746236)
How do you guys think something like this starts? Do we think that some lawyer approached him? Or is it more likely that he went out looking for someone to take this case for him?

I'm having a hard time imaging either one of those things playing out, just curious what everyone else thinks or if anyone knows what is more common?
   68. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 03:05 PM (#4746243)
How do you guys think something like this starts?


Mockery when he waddled into work the next day.
   69. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 08, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4746250)
Is it still like that?

No, The State Supreme Court level* which is where this complaint purports to be from is a file and then serve court, so te lack of an index number would indicate it hasn't been filed, and if it hasn't been filed it can't be served.

In the City Civil Court and State District Courts you can still do serve and then file, but those courts have a much lower $ jurisdictional limit.

Previously online docket information was available only after an RJI was filed, but now electronic filing is making its way into the State Court system- so for those cases online information and documents is available before an RJI is filed.

*In New York the Supreme Court is not the highest court, it's the basic trial level court. Most counties in New York have a "Supreme Court," below the Supreme Court level you have the various lower level City Courts, District courts, Justice Courts etc., above the Supreme Court Level you have 4 Appellate Divisions and the above them you have New York's Court of Appeals.
   70. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 08, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4746257)
How do you guys think something like this starts? Do we think that some lawyer approached him?


We once dealt briefly with the lawyer discussed at this blog.
After that lawyer's brief moment of internet infamy his client fired him, he later told us he'd hired the guy after meeting him in the elevator in his building- the lawyer was dating one of his neighbors or something like that.


   71. Srul Itza Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4746308)
No, The State Supreme Court level* which is where this complaint purports to be from is a file and then serve court, so te lack of an index number would indicate it hasn't been filed, and if it hasn't been filed it can't be served.


When did they change that?
   72. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4746340)
The defense presentation concluded with the lawyer waving a piece of paper and saying, "I have numerical numbers with information!"

Obviously a sabermetrician.
   73. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4746349)
We once dealt briefly with the lawyer discussed at this blog.
After that lawyer's brief moment of internet infamy his client fired him, he later told us he'd hired the guy after meeting him in the elevator in his building- the lawyer was dating one of his neighbors or something like that.

Rakofsky v. Internet was a truly impressive clownshow.

It's terrifying how people find lawyers. Seems like many people get popped for a DUI (or whatever), and just go home and Google "DUI / attorney / [location]" and call whoever has the best SEO. And then they're surprised when the lawyer is better at SEO than representing clients.
Free Advice from your Friendly Neighborhood Criminal Defense Lawyer: personal referrals are solid gold. And this chart is always useful.
   74. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4746377)
I believe CA has a bunch of unaccredited law schools (IIRC they can be admitted to the bar in CA but not other states) which are the real money-grab in legal education.

You don't have to attend any law school (or college) to take the CA Bar.

That probably knocks down the pass rate a few points every year, but it also means you get highly motivated people figuring their own thing out. My favorite is Barry Melton: from smoking a joint onstage at Woodstock (Melton was "The Fish," in Country Joe & the Fish), to a correspondence program through La Salle Extension University, to passing the CA Bar and becoming a kick-butt public defender for 30 years.
A hippie's vengeance: getting paid by The Man to stick it to The Man.
   75. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4746378)
The defense presentation concluded with the lawyer waving a piece of paper and saying, "I have numerical numbers with information!"

Obviously a sabermetrician.

He should get out of his mom's basement and watch some trials.
   76. Srul Itza Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4746387)
personal referrals are solid gold.


That works if you are a career criminal. Between what you have seen, and your professional peers, you can get a lot of information and advice about which criminal defense attorneys are good.

But for the guy for whom this is his first real interaction with Criminal Injustice System, and who does not have a lot of repeat offenders among his peers, it may be a little harder to get that kind of insight.

And even if you have a regular attorney for civil matters, that may not help. I have been practicing for 30+ years, over 25 of them here, and if I had to give a referral to a good criminal attorney, or a DUI specialist, I would not know who to pick, other than the guys who are always in the news.

Some of them have a cross-over practice into civil, but mine is a commercial/construction civil practice. The cross-over guys are more likely to be into Personal Injury and the like, and when I have seen them in the commercial or construction arena, I have been less than impressed, largely because they are often really out of their element.
   77. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4746391)
When did they change that?
at least 20 years ago...


   78. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 08, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4746409)
And even if you have a regular attorney for civil matters, that may not help. I have been practicing for 30+ years, over 25 of them here, and if I had to give a referral to a good criminal attorney, or a DUI specialist, I would not know who to pick


I've been admitted for 20 years, if asked for a criminal lawyer referral, well one of the guys I hung out with in Law School worked in a DA's office for 10 years... I'd have to ask him for some names.

What happens a lot is kind of like Law Office spam, I and 30 other lawyers will be copied on some other lawyer's email asking if anyone knows an immigration lawyer.
   79. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: July 08, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4746426)
What happens a lot is kind of like Law Office spam, I and 30 other lawyers will be copied on some other lawyer's email asking if anyone knows an immigration lawyer.

Yeah, I hate those emails.
Awhile back, when I realized I'd be getting questions about referrals outside my practice area, I started a kind of referral Rolodex - starting with attorneys I know & trust (professionally, personally, or both), asking them for further-out referrals if necessary, and keeping the list updated. So now, if a client calls & says "Thanks so much for helping with my criminal case awhile back, now I have a contract issue [or whatever], who should I call?" I'm often ready with an answer.
   80. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 05:20 PM (#4746461)
I keep my criminal defense rolodex fresh, though they are usually 'what if' questions, and as a former prosecutor I try to filter those, before sending them to a referral, as I always tell people your 4th amendment rights have a 100000X greater chance of being violated than your 1st amendment rights on any given day.

side note: I can't speak to very many jurisdictions outside the two I've practiced, but a fair number of defendants could do much worse than their appointed public defender, some are simply outstanding. It's pretty scary what passes for criminal defense work within the private bar.
   81. Buzzkill Posted: July 08, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4746583)
About 3/4 of the way through the video the Blond mother bites off a serious yawn. I was wondering why the crack Broadcast team didn't humiliate her as well.
   82. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: July 08, 2014 at 07:25 PM (#4746598)
I can't speak to very many jurisdictions outside the two I've practiced, but a fair number of defendants could do much worse than their appointed public defender, some are simply outstanding. It's pretty scary what passes for criminal defense work within the private bar.

Agree completely.
I know a lot of public defenders, over a half-dozen Bay Area counties, and mostly they are terrific. I don't have any problem telling prospective clients that, if you really can't afford a lawyer, go to court and get a public defender appointed to your case - they won't have time for a lot of hand-holding, but they will know their stuff. Plus, around here anyway, they tend to be dedicated, energetic, crazed 6th Amendment nuts.

Hell, if it's a really minor case, look into law school clinics: those kids are generally well-supervised, and extremely motivated to fight for their clients.
   83. Srul Itza Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:05 PM (#4746622)
at least 20 years ago...


I left NYC in 1989, so I can see how it could be that long.
   84. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4746630)
rolodex fresh

oxymoron alert
   85. boteman Posted: July 09, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4747172)
But wait! There's more...

@djsziff: The excellent @UWGallagher got the full "Napping Yankee Fan" complaint, here: http://t.co/IBAMhtM8Fe A highlight: http://t.co/ufmjS928UZ

The jokes, they write themselves!
   86. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 09, 2014 at 04:08 PM (#4747208)
But wait! There's more...


Good god, it looks like that turd was filed...

and plaintiff's law "firm" is "Okwara & Associates, PC"

which would seemingy imply that Valentine Okwara has other lawyers working for him... that does not seem likely.
   87. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 09, 2014 at 04:19 PM (#4747231)
I assume "Confused disgusted and socially bankrupt" will be a BBTF username by the end of the day.
   88. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: July 09, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4747241)
i call the fatty cow one
   89. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 09, 2014 at 04:23 PM (#4747242)
I assume "Confused disgusted and socially bankrupt" will be a BBTF username by the end of the day.


It's pretty tempting

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