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Tuesday, November 06, 2018

Yankees GM takes dig at Hall voting while praising George Steinbrenner

“I think he is a Hall of Famer,” Cashman said. “Whether he’s been inducted yet or not, I think it’s important. I believe that committee and the people who have the power of votes would be hard-pressed not to acknowledge this was a transformative figure in all of sports, not just baseball. I can’t imagine that he doesn’t warrant [induction], but again, it’s very political at times, this voting. Just like everything else. So there’s some powerful people that view it differently, I’m sure.

“But again, he was a transformative figure in this sport. Sometimes in a really good way and sometimes in a really difficult way. But the bottom line, he was very impactful. Both for this franchise and this industry and clearly a Hall of Famer from my viewpoint. But I don’t have a vote.”

The committee that does have a vote is comprised of members of the Hall of Fame, baseball executives and writers.

Jim Furtado Posted: November 06, 2018 at 09:29 AM | 38 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brian cashman, george steinbrenner, hall of fame

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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5782798)
If you were banned from baseball at one point, you're probably not a HoFer.
   2. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5782813)
Yankees GM takes dig at Hall voting while praising fellating George Steinbrenner's molding, maggot-ridden corpose


Fixed.
   3. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5782814)
I like the HOF better with Dave Winfield in it and George Steinbrenner out of it.
   4. Blastin Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5782827)
What would he deserve induction for? Spending money poorly until smarter people made better decisions with his money?
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5782839)
What would he deserve induction for?

I would make that argument for every owner, unless they actually played a direct role in managing the team's baseball operations.
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5782841)
If you were banned from baseball at one point, you're probably not a HoFer.
A lot of Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle fans would likely disagree.
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5782845)
A lot of Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle fans would likely disagree.

First, they were already in when banned. Second, no one considers those real bans. They were never accused of any actual wrongdoing, and had no relationship with MLB at the time they were banned, so had no actual duty towards MLB. In other words, it was a complete farce.
   8. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 06, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5782850)
If you were banned from baseball at one point, you're probably not a HoFer.

or banned twice, as he was
   9. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: November 06, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5782891)
What would he deserve induction for?

Steinbrenner paid off a small-time crook for dirt on the Yankees best player, establishing the precedent for MLB to pay off several small-time crooks for dirt on the Yankees best player.
   10. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 06, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5782895)
^ yup

"When the commissioner does it, it is not illegal."
   11. Perry Posted: November 06, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5782904)
I dunno. My first thought was, his only qualification is that he was, in fact, famous, which is no qualification at all. My second thought was, well, could you reasonably tell the story of baseball, especially baseball in the 70s, without him in it? I don't think you can. It's not as easy a call as I thought. I guess it comes down to the old question of whether Hall election is meant to confer honor, pretty much the same question you have with the steroid guys.
   12. JL72 Posted: November 06, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5782923)
My second thought was, well, could you reasonably tell the story of baseball, especially baseball in the 70s, without him in it? I don't think you can.


But that only makes him part of the museum, not a HOFer.
   13. villageidiom Posted: November 06, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5782929)
I think the excerpt at the top of the thread works better if you imagine he's talking about Marvin Miller instead. That is fitting, because Steinbrenner likely would not have been a HOF contender if not for what Marvin Miller accomplished.
   14. SandyRiver Posted: November 06, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5782930)
IMO, nobody other than players/managers should be selected by that committee until one far more impactful than Steinbrenner (Marvin Miller) is inducted. In terms of the effect on today's game, Miller might rank 3rd, behind the "R" boys.

Carbonated liquid of choice to VI.
   15. Srul Itza Posted: November 06, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5782958)
behind the "R" boys


??
   16. Red Voodooin Posted: November 06, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5782977)
Robinson and Rickey? Ruth?
   17. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: November 06, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5783001)
Lou WhitakeR and Bobby GRich?

But I'm guessing Rickey and Robinson are the answers.
   18. Captain Supporter Posted: November 06, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5783028)
IMO, nobody other than players/managers should be selected by that committee until one far more impactful than Steinbrenner (Marvin Miller) is inducted. In terms of the effect on today's game, Miller might rank 3rd, behind the "R" boys.


George would not get my vote. But neither would Marvin Miller. Miller definitely was an enormous help to the players, but the game itself was a better game before Marvin Miller. Put him in a labor union Hall of Fame, but keep him out of the baseball one.
   19. jmurph Posted: November 06, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5783031)
What would he deserve induction for? Spending money poorly until smarter people made better decisions with his money?

I've never understood this, either. Does John Henry go in? Is just being the owner of and spending money on a successful team what gets an owner in?
   20. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: November 06, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5783038)

I've never understood this, either. Does John Henry go in? Is just being the owner of and spending money on a successful team what gets an owner in?

It seems to be. I look forward to the SF Giants ownership conglomerate's election to the HOF in 15 years.
   21. Rally Posted: November 06, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5783046)
Does John Henry go in? Is just being the owner of and spending money on a successful team what gets an owner in?


He was never parodied on Seinfeld, so no.
   22. jmurph Posted: November 06, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5783067)
He was never parodied on Seinfeld, so no.

He's far too boring to parody, I imagine.
   23. villageidiom Posted: November 06, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5783073)
I've never understood this, either. Does John Henry go in? Is just being the owner of and spending money on a successful team what gets an owner in?
Early adopter of free agency. For many years was essentially the sole owner willing to pay players more in line with their financial value. That, in turn, forced other teams to seek alternatives to just paying peanuts, which after a few illegal iterations resulted in every team having to pay to get free agent superstars.

Seriously, the landscape changed massively because of Steinbrenner. But he couldn't have done any of it without Marvin Miller.
   24. SandyRiver Posted: November 06, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5783082)
Robinson and Rickey? Ruth?

Not Rickey.
IMO, the 3 biggest changes in MLB play, once things like pitching distance and number of balls/strikes were settled, were the lively ball, integration, and free agency.

Mirabelli Dictu's comment, stolen from the "Superstar" thread:
"Add to this, of course, the fact that Ruth was doing things previously considered impossible. In 1927, he had just hit 60 home runs and out-homered every other TEAM in the AL for the second time. Trout differs from other players by degree; Ruth differed by kind."
   25. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: November 06, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5783088)
But I'm guessing Rickey and Robinson are the answers.


It took me too many re-readings to realize that the person in question was not Rickey!
   26. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: November 06, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5783097)
It took me too many re-readings to realize that the person in question was not Rickey!

It took me a few reads, too.
   27. jmurph Posted: November 06, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5783103)
Early adopter of free agency. For many years was essentially the sole owner willing to pay players more in line with their financial value. That, in turn, forced other teams to seek alternatives to just paying peanuts, which after a few illegal iterations resulted in every team having to pay to get free agent superstars.

Seriously, the landscape changed massively because of Steinbrenner. But he couldn't have done any of it without Marvin Miller.

This is interesting. But as far as I can recall you're the first person I've seen make this particular case for him. Usually it's just count the rings/$$$.
   28. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 06, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5783105)
For many years was essentially the sole owner willing to pay players more in line with their financial value. That, in turn, forced other teams to seek alternatives to just paying peanuts, which after a few illegal iterations resulted in every team having to pay to get free agent superstars.


I don't think this is quite true. While Steinbrenner was signing Catfish Hunter and Reggie Jackson, Gene Autry was signing Don Baylor, Bobby Grich and Joe Rudi, and Ted Turner was signing Andy Messersmith and Gary Matthews. Steinbrenner was by far the most successful with this strategy, but there were other owners with him nearly from the beginning.
   29. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: November 06, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5783106)
No one remembers now, but Montreal offered Reggie nearly the same amount of money as New York and Reggie almost went there.
   30. villageidiom Posted: November 06, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5783223)
I don't think this is quite true. While Steinbrenner was signing Catfish Hunter and Reggie Jackson, Gene Autry was signing Don Baylor, Bobby Grich and Joe Rudi, and Ted Turner was signing Andy Messersmith and Gary Matthews.

12/31/74 Catfish Hunter: $3.2m/5y ($640k AAV)
04/10/76 Andy Messersmith: $1m/3y ($333k AAV) (purchased by NYY after 2 seasons)
11/16/76 Don Baylor: $1.6m/6y ($267k AAV)
11/17/76 Joe Rudi: $2.1/5y ($420k AAV)
11/17/76 Gary Matthews: $1.2m/5y ($240k AAV)
11/29/76 Reggie Jackson: $3.0m/5y ($600k AAV)
11/24/76 Bobby Grich: $1.4m/5y ($280k AAV)

11/22/77 Goose Gossage: $2.8m/6y ($458k AAV)

11/21/78 Tommy John: $1.7m/3y ($575k AAV)

11/08/79 Bob Watson: $1.7m/3y ($570k AAV)
11/16/79 Bruce Kison: $2.5m/5y ($493k AAV)
11/20/79 Al Hrabosky: $2.2m/5y ($440k AAV)

11/15/80 Claudell Washington: $2.7m/4y ($675k AAV)
12/02/80 Geoff Zahn: $1.25m/3y ($417k AAV)
12/11/80 John D'Acquisto: $1.1m/4y ($275k AAV)
12/15/80 Dave Winfield: $23m/10y ($2300k AAV)

After the first offseason of free agency, the Yankees continued to sign players to rich multiyear contracts. While the Yankees did this, the Angels and Braves didn't. In fact it took until after the Yankees repeated as 2-time World Champions (and 3-time AL champions) and then signed Bob Watson for those two teams to pull the trigger on deals that were (squinting) comparable to Watson's.

That said, by the end of 1980 the Angels had yet to sign someone for a contract as rich (in AAV) as the Catfish Hunter deal six years earlier. The Braves almost lasted as long, signing Claudell Washington to a high-AAV deal in November 1980, a month before Steinbrenner blew that away with the Winfield deal.

Steinbrenner was on another level with this.
   31. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 06, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5783238)
That's very impressive, the way you did that with the colors. Yes, you're right, Steinbrenner did a lot more of this than any other owner, but I still don't think it's completely accurate to say he was "the sole owner willing to pay players more in line with their financial value."
   32. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 07, 2018 at 07:43 AM (#5783514)
Mr. Steinbrenner made a baseball franchise so popular and successful thst the entire league said it needed to completely dismantle its economic model. He’s the executive equivalent of Lew Alcindor making the NCAA ban the dunk.
   33. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: November 07, 2018 at 08:32 AM (#5783522)
You can add to the green ledger in [30] that Don Gullett signed with NYY for $2m/6y ($333k AAV) after the '76 season.
   34. villageidiom Posted: November 07, 2018 at 08:49 AM (#5783525)
Let me re-sort the list from above, by AAV instead of chronology:

12/15/80 Dave Winfield: $23m/10y ($2300k AAV)
11/15/80 Claudell Washington: $2.7m/4y ($675k AAV)
12/31/74 Catfish Hunter: $3.2m/5y ($640k AAV)
11/29/76 Reggie Jackson: $3.0m/5y ($600k AAV)
11/21/78 Tommy John: $1.7m/3y ($575k AAV)
11/08/79 Bob Watson: $1.7m/3y ($570k AAV)


11/16/79 Bruce Kison: $2.5m/5y ($493k AAV)
11/22/77 Goose Gossage: $2.8m/6y ($458k AAV)
11/20/79 Al Hrabosky: $2.2m/5y ($440k AAV)
11/17/76 Joe Rudi: $2.1/5y ($420k AAV)
12/02/80 Geoff Zahn: $1.25m/3y ($417k AAV)


04/10/76 Andy Messersmith: $1m/3y ($333k AAV) (purchased by NYY after 2 seasons)
11/24/76 Bobby Grich: $1.4m/5y ($280k AAV)
12/11/80 John D'Acquisto: $1.1m/4y ($275k AAV)
11/16/76 Don Baylor: $1.6m/6y ($267k AAV)

11/17/76 Gary Matthews: $1.2m/5y ($240k AAV)

To say that the Angels and Braves were right there with the Yankees in paying players is almost like saying I'm just like Usain Bolt because I went for a run the other day. Every team participated in free agency, because every team lost players to free agency and had to replace them somehow. Eventually pretty much every team signed someone to a rich contract. The Yankees were on another level, pretty much from the start.
   35. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 07, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5783557)
To take this in a little different direction, what the chart shows in 34 is that the Yankees were better at this than any other team. There are four Hall of Famers on that list, and all four of them were signed by the Yankees.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 07, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5783572)
There are four Hall of Famers on that list, and all four of them were signed by the Yankees.

And Tommy John, who is HoVG, and wouldn't be out of place in the HoF.
   37. RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball Posted: November 07, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5783989)
Steinbrenner in the HoF? Sure, why not? They gave Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize, didn't they?
   38. Srul Itza Posted: November 07, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5784049)
Apropos the rivalry -- If they can put Tom Yawkey in the HOF, whose signature achievements were holding the Red Sox back for years by refusing to sign African American players and never winning a World Series in the 44 years he owned the team, then they can find room for Von Steingrabber and his team's 16 AL East titles, 11 American League Pennants, and 7 World Series championships.

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