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So if these reports are to be believed, A-Rod left around $24 million on the table. Ha! Eat it Boras.
Ownership leaks figures intended to make agent look bad, fanboys on Internet message boards actually believe them. And then write posts like this.
And that's why I wrote if newspaper reports are to believed dickweed. That's all we have to go by at this point, as someone else pointed out.
Doesn't that depend on what the final purchase price is?
But your p.ov. in your analogy is a little odd. Only one side issued an ultimatum, and that side is the one that retracted the ultimatum. A-Rod didn't say he wouldn't continue to negotiate; the Yankees did. And the Yankees are the ones backing out of that commitment. What stance did ARod "blink" from?
Well, all the figures are plants in that they're strategic pieces of information to accomplish a particular goal. I don't know if there is a "there there" that we've ever going to get at, just competing testimonies of what actually happened. Damn, I've gone pomo.
You're right Kevin - $27.5 million this year to JD Drew, Julio Lugo, and Edgar Renteria was a significantly better use of resources.
Cmon, the Sox are the better team, and I for one am glad about it- you don't have to an ####### about it.
I believe the information in the plant. I think that the Yankees would have given him the extra two years. But, that's less interesting than the timing of the plant. Had A-Rod already contacted the Yankees when that was planted in Madden's column? Or was the information in the plant something that spurred A-Rod to contact the Yankees?
The story today does imply rational behavior for both parties. A-Rod may have seen that the money wasn't out there in the market and the Yankees may have seen the 3B replacement market as worse than they had expected.
Where's the "about it"?
As has been pointed out, dickweed, the reports you're believing, such as they are, involve entirely hypothetical numbers attached to entirely hypothetical negotiations. Which didn't happen during the exclusivity period before opt-out.
And your response is the ownership fanboyism, "Ha! Eat it, Boras." Which makes you perfectly suited for sports talk radio, but not for discussions on this site.
Better you should stop trying to find ways to defeat the nanny, and start trying grasp not-so-complex thoughts like an adult.
200+ IP, 108 ERA+, 6.5 WARP1. Easily worth $16 mil/year to a team with a $150 mil payroll. Nice try though.
I don't know why anybody cares. They're the Yankees. They make more money than any other team. They ought to be spending big money on good players. If they weren't, they'd be cheating their fans.
Well, there are the only numbers we have out there, as I already pointed out.
And your response is the ownership fanboyism, "Ha! Eat it, Boras."
It isn't fanboyism, but it is a silly remark. I'll admit I hate Boras.
and start trying grasp not-so-complex thoughts like an adult.
I learned it from watching you alright!
A-Rod threads always bring out the best in everyone.
Ain't that the damn truth.
Team payroll has to do with what a team can afford to pay. The Red Sox can afford to pay $2.5 mil per WARP.
According to MORP, the market thinks it is.
A 108 ERA+ isn't worth that much. A 108 ERA+ for 200 IP is worth that much. There aren't many pitchers who do that so there there aren't an awful lot of pitchers receiving that much money.
I can't believe you're trying to argue this. You picked the wrong guy to pick on. Change your snarky comment to Julio Lugo and move on.
He didn't make $16M -- or, rather, the Red Sox didn't spend $16M -- because his 108 ERA+ in 200 IP was worth $16M; he "made" $16M because the Red Sox thought he'd be a better pitcher than that.
Roy Halladay has topped 100 ERA+/200 IP four times in the past six seasons. He makes $12.7 million. If you'll forgive the near misses (198 or 199.3 IP here, 99 or 98 ERA+ there), Greg Maddux has met these standards for twenty consecutive seasons. He makes $10 million. Save one 95 ERA+, Mark Buehrle has met these standards for seven consecutive seasons. He makes $9.5 million. Jon Garland has done it for the last three years, four if you waive his 95 ERA+ in 2004. He makes $10 million. Tom Glavine has done it about 15 times (allowing for a few close calls). He makes $7.5 million. Tim Hudson has done it five times, and since 2000 has been no further than 188 IP once and a 91 ERA+ once. He makes $8.5 million. John Smoltz has done it every year since returning to the rotation, and numerous times before that. He makes $8 million. Roy Oswalt has done it five of the past six years. He makes $13 million.
Edit: Two pitchers who did sign in the last offeason, IIRC:
Andy Pettite, 110 ERA+, 215 innings, 16 million dollars.
Barry Zito, 96 ERA+, 197 innings, many millions of dollars (at least by AAV).
Obviously Matsuzaka had exclusive access to sell on top of ability, so his was a unique situation. But it's a tough premise to sell: that Dice-K is market value, and therefore 95% of the other "100+/200"-level starters in baseball are a relative bargain.
Not that it matters, but every report indicates that it was A-Rod who came to the Yanks and offered to absorb the lost Texas money. The exact price of the deal may be related to the Yanks' initial negotiating position but there is no way for us to know for sure. However, we do know the deal is mutually agreeable and for considerably less $$ than what Boras, MCoA, and many others here suggested. How is that not a plus for the Yanks?
The Captain?
Fair enough. I don't know the numbers do very well. I do know, however, that I was hoping for bigger things from Matsuzaka in 2007, and am certainly hoping for better things over the next few seasons. If he doesn't improve, he can still help the team win, but he would have to be called a disappointment, I think.
That seems likely. Those guys are like the bestest of friends, I hear.
Does it mean that ARod is going to come back to the Yankees for $20M less than what they offered him before he dropped out? No, it doesn't. What it means is that the Yankees are now planting ex post facto stories claiming that they were going to offer him some very large number (a number far beyond what was reported they were going to offer at the time), and now he'll take $20M less than that.
They were offering somewhere in the neighborhood of $225M. Now they're offering something like $275M, but to save face they're pretending that this $275M is really $295M-$20M. (If the dealer wants to pretend that the car price is $25K and your trade-in is a $2K credit, is that any different than the car price being $23.5K and your trade-in being a $500 credit? Not for you, no. And this is from the dealer that told you last week that if you walked away, it wouldn't sell you a car at any price.)
The Yankees would get a superstar; it's hardly a bad deal. But since they're the ones who insisted that they'd never negotiate with him if he opted out, they're by definition the side that blinked.
And if it happens, that's the only thing that really matters. It's still a big "if," though.
David,
How do you get that number? In other words, what's your evidence for that?
It strikes me that you're playing a little fast and loose with your numbers.
Anyone else notice that he didn't allow a single UER last year? 100 Runs allowed, everyone earned. 204.7 IP, not a single UER. There's gotta be a record in there somewhere.
Look, 200 IP is nice, but he was freaking 41st in the majors in win shares (among pitchers) in 2007.
Interesting, but the Red Sox did finish 5 game under their pythag. Only the Giants and Royals were worse off.
Cashman: We can't let you rent out the Stadium during the offseason for Fetish Fairs, Scott.
Boras: Cashman, tell Hank we'll only drop the Fetish Fair demand if he gives us his private jet.
A-Rod: You using that jet for anything, Hankeroo?
Hank S.: Cashman, tell Alex I like to brush my teeth in that jet every morning.
Cashman: Tell him yourself. You're ignoring Scott, not Alex.
Hank S.: Alex, thank Cashman for pointing that out.
Cashman: Hank, you're not not talking to me, and secondly, I heard what you said.
Hank S.: Scott, tell Cashman to get off my case.
A-Rod: Umm, Scott's the one you're not talking to.
Hank S.: Alex, go to your room!
Boras spins back! Take that, Randy Levine!
I'm not saying you're doing this because I trust your intellectual integrity, but couldn't one say you're cherry picking numbers. Certain sources are reporting he's taking less (ESPN, Maddon above) than what was offered during pre-opt out, other people are saying he's actually taking more. None of us are actually in the position to corroborate anything we hear. Social scientists often like to say a proposition needs to be falsifible in order to be considered scientific. At this point, I don't think we have much basis to falsify anything, just competing numbers that different parties have a vested interested in planting. Let's say that A-Rod and Boras actually misjudged the market and now A-Rod wants to return to the Yanks (and I'm not saying this is even the case). How would have the media game played out?
Like a Curt Schilling style, World Series win bonus , I assume???
Obviously we can never be sure which reports to believe; only the final contract is a hard fact. But I would find a lot more credible a report from October 31 saying, "The Yankees are about to offer $300M" than I do a report from November 14 saying, "The Yankees would have offered $300M if it weren't for that evil Boras but now they'll only offer $280M because ARod has come crawling back to us." (I'm not accusing Maddon of lying; I just think he's uncritically reporting Yankee propaganda.)
I so agree. I am in awe watching him work. Master salesman. Master!
oh and according to post 353 up there, he just might get that $300 million yet.
Plus, you guys are forgetting something. Scott has not taken that publiczed $300 million out into the market yet.
Theo, Coletti, and who ever the hell is running Anaheim now, lets just say Moreno, well now they know what it is going to take to sign Alex Rodriguez .. 300 fricking million dollars. Just Like Scott Boras said.
Thank you New York Yankees .. .. again!
They could be the stupidest organization .. ever!!
Last night you all went to bed with A Rod and NY not talking .. ever! ..
24 hours later, Scott Boras has news reports of a 300 Million dollar deal that he can take to the other organizations ..
who is the fool?!!!
This could make the Mets signing Todd Zeile to play 1B look smart.
I see you've been to northern Canada...
damn he is good. 48 hours ago every news media outlet in the world said he would never get it ...
48 hours ago.
anybody have a link to that story, i would like to read it. :)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/14/bc.bba.yankees.rodriguez/?cnn=yes
ESPN doesn't quote numbers but they say, "Rodriguez will be asked by the Yankees to take some $20 million less than they were willing to pay before the slugger opted out of his previous deal."
its a ploy
Edit: Man Jon Heyman makes it sound like it is a done deal.
I hope that is not true ...
Either way, Scott got his 300 million.
By the way, if when you say ESPN you mean Buster Olney's piece, he doesn't exactly contradict me; what he says is that they made the offer I recited -- $140-$150/5 + $80 -- and that it was their "intention" to increase their offer to $260/9 or $290/10. He doesn't suggest they actually made such an offer. Which makes the number completely illusory.
What's amazing to me is how the Yankees are trying to spin an enormous defeat (*) -- the bottom line is, ARod is going to get something close to $30M/yr for 10 years -- as though they "beat" Boras. ARod had a $250M/10 contract, which everyone said was ridiculous. He gambled by opting out in mid-contract. And now he's likely to significantly top that -- putting him far ahead of every other player in the game in both total and average value -- and somehow the Yankees defeated him? Boras is a freaking genius. By spending nothing beyond his media reputation, he gets the Yankees to dig deep into their pockets and manages to convince them to feel good about it because they got ARod for less than the $350M number Boras pulled out of his ass?
(*) Again, an enormous negotiating defeat, not a real defeat. Getting A-Rod is a good thing, not a "defeat."
Yeah, sorry can't do that, I'm just going by what with Buster said. I've got to say, reading ESPN's story and the SI story posted by Gambling Rent back to back is really enjoyable. Two totally different stories. In the ESPN story (i.e. Stein/Cashman's story), the Yanks look like badasses by "penalizing" A-Rod $20 million. In the SI story (Boras' story), Team Boras looks like the badass. No sources in the SI story, a "source" is mentioned in the ESPN story.
And if Boras is very much in command, doesn't the next part of the script involve him shopping his offer for a day or two?
Dammitall, I'll question $275 mil. Arod, very very likely entering his decline phase, is worth around 120/6. I'm delighted to see the Steingrabbers self-imposing their own stupidity, I mean luxury, tax.
The free agent market has been open now for a little over 50 hours. The villian, Scott Boras has already got a reported $300 million dollar offer, from the Yankees no less ... :)
what an idiot!
The Captain?
Kevin Long.
Terence Long.
Is that even legal?
It's also possible that Rodriguez simply decided screw Bora$, I'm going to be a good guy for once, or even that this is a carefully deployed tactic to get an offer from the Yankees to take to other teams, but... I doubt both of those scenarios.
Also, in the realm of negotiating, the Yankees got ##### slapped on this one. My guess is there was a bit of chaos with new ruling scheme and it took them a while to get their crap together. Boras and The Rod have made them look like Keystone cops on this one. Their team will benefit, though.
In my 22 years of existence I have NEVER been to the Olive Garden. My buddy said when I visit the States next year it'll be his God-given duty to take me to one.
I went once. Prepare for heartburn. The food isn't as bad as people say but it left me...unsettled afterwards.
Seinfeld? Check
Monty Python? Check
Simpsons? Check
Aaaaaaaaaaaannnnd...we're done.
Everyone? Maybe at one time, but there were a lot folks here whose recent posts insisted that MLB revenues had increased to such a degree that A-Rod would have no trouble getting $300M or even $350M. Seems like those folks should congratulate the Yanks for getting a "bargain".
Kevin Long.
Mitch Modell. Or somebody from Goldman Sachs. Seriously.
what I'm looking for is a story that was published at the time he opted out which claims that the Yankees had made or were going to make that offer.
By the way, if when you say ESPN you mean Buster Olney's piece, he doesn't exactly contradict me; what he says is that they made the offer I recited -- $140-$150/5 + $80 -- and that it was their "intention" to increase their offer to $260/9 or $290/10. He doesn't suggest they actually made such an offer. Which makes the number completely illusory.
Of course, ALL of these numbers are completely illusory until there's actually a signed document. But I think it's fair to ask you to hold yourself to the same standard you demand of others -- so please show me a report at the time of the opt out that says the 5/150 was an absolute, final, take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that they were willing to negotiate up from that during the ten days that the prior contract allowed. YMMV.
Theo, Coletti, and who ever the hell is running Anaheim now, lets just say Moreno, well now they know what it is going to take to sign Alex Rodriguez .. 300 fricking million dollars. Just Like Scott Boras said.
Thank you New York Yankees .. .. again!
They could be the stupidest organization .. ever!!
Last night you all went to bed with A Rod and NY not talking .. ever! ..
24 hours later, Scott Boras has news reports of a 300 Million dollar deal that he can take to the other organizations ..
who is the fool?!!!
Even if this is true, which seems unlikely given the latest reports, how, exactly does this hurt the Yankees?
If the Angels pay $50M more than they would have, doesn't that help the Yankees by weakening a potential competitor?
You're risking your life if you go past the bread sticks and ice water.
As for their pastas and entrees - eh - pretty mediocre.
This is, of course, why the Yankees have caved and started negotiating with ARod again - whoever signs ARod wins the offseason (barring Cabrera/Santana trades). So, the Yankees have the most money, and they're going to spend it on the best player
So, even supposing the Yanks bluffed and were called on it, what makes sense now? Negotiate with ARod or not? The only thing to gain from not negotiating is feeling like you "beat" Boras, which is pointless. If you do negotiate for him, you either retain him at the price you want, or you push up his price for your opponents. I can't see how they've lost credibility in the market such that future players won't take them seriously. The situation is just too unique.
Funny, though, how the non-Yankee-fan reaction to ARod opting out was how awful this was for the Yanks, and now that it looks like he's coming back, the reaction is how awful this is for the Yanks. Almost like they're trying to convince themselves.
It needed to be said.
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