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Friday, January 13, 2012

Yankees trade Jesus Montero to Mariners for Michael Pineda

Jay Buhner was unavailable for comment.

Gamingboy Posted: January 13, 2012 at 08:26 PM | 111 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mariners, yankees

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   101. Randy Jones Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:36 AM (#4037309)
As pointed out in the fangraphs page, the cutter really doesn't work for Pineda as a 3rd pitch because it's too similar to the slider. Maybe as a 4th pitch once he develops his change, but he really needs to develop that change-up first. Last year per Fangraphs he only got it over the plate roughly half the time, and when he did get it over hitters mashed it. I agree that this definitely isn't a "he only needs plate discipline" issue in that it's one skill Pineda needs to add, not several ("plate discipline" includes eye but also things like wrist strength and the ability to foul off pitches on 2-strike counts).


I think the cutter could be more effective for him than the slider against LH hitters.
   102. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4037324)
This is absolutely untrue. Many, many pitchers are able to develop new pitches as their careers progress. Both old and young pitchers. Also, maybe Mo can teach Pineda the cutter. He's taught it to a number of other pitchers that have come to the Yankees.
He taught the cutter to Roy Halladay, as well. Thanks, #######.
   103. Squash Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4037332)
This is absolutely untrue. Many, many pitchers are able to develop new pitches as their careers progress. Both old and young pitchers. Also, maybe Mo can teach Pineda the cutter. He's taught it to a number of other pitchers that have come to the Yankees.

Yes, but they don't learn changeups, except in very, very rare cases. A cutter is a fairly easy pitch to learn. A splitter is a fairly easy pitch to learn. A changeup is a feel pitch, and extremely difficult to master unless you've "got it". It also happens to be one of the very, very best weapons a pitcher can have. That's why it's like plate discipline - sure it would be great if a guy developed it, and every so often they do, but we toss it off like it's no big thing ("he just needs to master this extremely difficult skill that history shows is very rarely mastered unless it's already part of a young player's game") when in fact it is a very, very big thing. The list of power pitchers, especially fastball/slider guys, who then develop a consistently useable changeup is tiny. I can't even think of one off the top of my head. Though I'm sure suggestions will follow.

EDITED
   104. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4037337)
A bunch of power pitchers have developed a splitter, though, which can be used in a lot of the same counts and situations as a change. It bears significantly more injury risk, but it's a much more learn-able weapon.
   105. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4037339)
Throwing 97 MPH is a rare skill, too.
   106. Walt Davis Posted: January 15, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4037386)
Nonsense. Pitchers learn changeups all the time. The circle change became a big hit because of how easy it is to learn. And pitchers with changeups develop them over time. You really think Maddux was throwing THAT changeup from day one? Pedro? Hoffman? Doug Jones?

I find the position a very strange concept. A pitch which requires "feel", misdirection, etc. can't be taught/learned? It's a natural ability?

Throwing 97 is natural ability (assisted by good mechanics). How to pitch, which is what a changeup is all about, is learned.
   107. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4037390)
Nonsense. Pitchers learn changeups all the time. The circle change became a big hit because of how easy it is to learn. And pitchers with changeups develop them over time. You really think Maddux was throwing THAT changeup from day one? Pedro? Hoffman? Doug Jones?

I find the position a very strange concept. A pitch which requires "feel", misdirection, etc. can't be taught/learned? It's a natural ability?

Throwing 97 is natural ability (assisted by good mechanics). How to pitch, which is what a changeup is all about, is learned.


Concur. The changeup is probably the second most "learned" pitch after the knuckleball.

Do we ever hear about an 18 or 19 y.o. with a plus, plus change?
   108. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4037391)
Throwing 97 MPH is a rare skill, too.

Not to mention being 6'7" and throwing that hard.

All else being equal, pitches from a tall guy with long arms will have more effective velocity b/c they are released closer to home plate.
   109. Squash Posted: January 15, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4037405)
Nonsense. Pitchers learn changeups all the time. The circle change became a big hit because of how easy it is to learn. And pitchers with changeups develop them over time. You really think Maddux was throwing THAT changeup from day one? Pedro? Hoffman? Doug Jones?

I find the position a very strange concept. A pitch which requires "feel", misdirection, etc. can't be taught/learned? It's a natural ability?

Throwing 97 is natural ability (assisted by good mechanics). How to pitch, which is what a changeup is all about, is learned.


Those guys came in with a changeup. A guy who has no changeup whatsoever almost never develops a good changeup. A changeup is easy to learn. It's incredibly difficult to throw. If it was so easy everyone would have one because it's the most effective pitch. A great changeup is a gift just like throwing hard. Anyone can throw one, just like anyone can throw a fastball. Or a curve, or a splitter. But throwing a good one is extremely difficult.

Pineda might indeed develop a good changeup. But he'll be beating the odds, just like a hitter who has no plate discipline might develop plate discipline. If it's so easy, golly why don't they all throw one?

And the circle change is most definitely not an easy pitch to throw. It's one of the most difficult. It may look simple, but it ain't simple.

A bunch of power pitchers have developed a splitter, though, which can be used in a lot of the same counts and situations as a change. It bears significantly more injury risk, but it's a much more learn-able weapon.

That is usually what they do.
   110. Dr. Vaux Posted: January 15, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4037441)
What I've seen is that Pineda has a changeup, but only threw it 10% of the time last year and had a hard time commanding it. But that's a changeup he already has and can work on improving, not no changeup at all.
   111. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4037449)
Pineda also had a 3.45 FIP against LHB last years. K/9 7.8, BB/9 2.6.

It's not like he was hopeless.
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