Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, July 09, 2012

You can hate La Russa, but not for this | Major League Baseball - The News Tribune

You can’t debate numbers without Baseball-Reference.com.

My prayers and thoughts are with you, Marlins fans. Just hang in there, and remember that your outrage toward Tony La Russa is shared on two coasts, and everywhere in between.

But, hey, I get the drift.

Bryce Harper, 19, a legend in the making, appointed to an All-Star Game over the 30-year old career minor-leaguer who is Justin Ruggiano?

What’s up with that?

Edit: Links to baseball-reference.com added.

Jim Furtado Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:52 AM | 51 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: all-star game, marlins

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4176819)
How many of the NL final vote guys are on the team now? 4 of the 5? That makes the whole thing extremely pointless.
   2. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4176822)
Bryce Harper, 19, a legend in the making, appointed to an All-Star Game over the 30-year old career minor-leaguer who is Justin Ruggiano?

What’s up with that?
Right! Why in the world would you want to name one of the most successful, talked-about, and exciting teenage ballplayers in decades to the All Star Game when you can invite a guy with 82 at bats?

(edit to add: Yes, I'm aware that this is not a serious question that the columnist is asking.)
   3. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 09, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4176848)
Mark Buehrle would have been a fine addition to the team. His first-half numbers are even good, but the fact that he's only 8-8 probably eliminated him from consideration.
   4. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4176892)
Bryce Harper: 283/355/475 in 273 PA, dWAR -0.1
Martin Prado: 322/382/459 in 361 PA, dWAR 0.4
Jason Heyward: 272/340/500 in 322 PA, dWAR 0.5

You can take a more deserving player, or you can take a Marlin; either way, Harper was the wrong choice.
   5. Depressoteric Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4176952)
You can take a more deserving player, or you can take a Marlin; either way, Harper was the wrong choice.
But nobody wanted to take another Brave, for Christ's sake. They're an afterthought team with enough marginal All-Star selections already.

Harper was the right choice.
   6. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4176978)
Seriously, you guys don't get to have Uggla AND Larry Jones AND Kimbrel AND Bourn AND Heyward AND Prado in the damn game. If you don't like it, you can just go stab yourselves in the neck with a giant foam rubber tomahawk.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4176988)
If you don't like it, you can just go stab yourselves in the neck with a giant foam rubber tomahawk.


For the record, I don't think that would be a very effective tool for neck-stabbing purposes.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4177006)

You can take a more deserving player, or you can take a Marlin; either way, Harper was the wrong choice.


Yea, it sucks for an All-Star game they took the star fans want to see.
   9. Tripon Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4177019)
Also, using half season defensive WAR is missing the point.
   10. AJMcCringleberry Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4177132)
Hey, I'm sure the number of people who would be excited for Martin Prado in the All-Star game is in the double digits.
   11. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4177152)
As noted in today's Washington Post, Bryce Harper is younger than all but 3 players for the Futures Game! Who wouldn't want to see him in the All-Star game, outside of the Miami-Atlanta Axis of Evil?
   12. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4177162)
Yea, it sucks for an All-Star game they took the star fans want to see.


Outside of DC there are maybe 12 people who "want to see" Bryce Harper.
   13. Srul Itza Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4177179)
Outside of DC there are maybe 12 people who "want to see" Bryce Harper.


It's one thing to be ornery. It's another to be dishonest.

You got Chipper in, and you got Bourn in. Time to shut up.
   14. Depressoteric Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4177189)
Outside of DC there are maybe 12 people who "want to see" Bryce Harper.
Obvious, tiresome troll is obvious and tiresome.
You got Chipper in, and you got Bourn in. Time to shut up.
Good luck with that, and I mean it.
   15. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4177194)
It's one thing to be ornery. It's another to be dishonest.


The idea that there's this national urge to see Harper is silly.

You got Chipper in, and you got Bourn in. Time to shut up.


I would have replaced Stanton with Anibal Sanchez.
   16. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4177228)
plonk
   17. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4177254)
Outside of DC there are maybe 12 people who "want to see" Bryce Harper.
Um, really?

All we've (baseball fans outside of DC) heard is that the guy is the 19 year old second coming of Mickey Mantle; regardless of his stats at this point in time, why wouldn't we "want to see" Harper?

Honestly, I'd much rather see Harper on the team than any other NL backup.
   18. JustDan Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4177262)
Lol.. Braves fans are scared of the Nationals.
   19. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4177265)
This is a silly argument. Everyone knows that the NL All-Star team consists of Andrew McCutchen and a bunch of guys who aren't Andrew McCutchen but wish they could be.
   20. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4177281)
Honestly, I'd much rather see Harper on the team than any other NL backup.


Okay. I guess if that's your thing. I was under the impression - hoping against the facts of humanity, perhaps - that the Harper hype had played out a la the Weiters hype from a few years ago. It's not like he's Mike Stanton or Andrew McCutchen.
   21. Depressoteric Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4177335)
Okay. I guess if that's your thing. I was under the impression - hoping against the facts of humanity, perhaps - that the Harper hype had played out a la the Weiters hype from a few years ago. It's not like he's Mike Stanton or Andrew McCutchen.
He's putting up a .282/.354/.472 line with 8 homers, 4 triples, and 27BB in 277PA, good for a 123 OPS+, as a 19-year old kid. He is, in fact, on track to have the best season of any 19-year-old in baseball history with the possible exception of Mel Ott (and he might end up beating him). He's the odds-on favorite for NL Rookie of the Year. He steals home plate after being plunked, accidentally bashes himself in the face with his own bat in frustration, and creates instant sports-meme quotes when he calls out clown questions, bro. And you know this, because you've watched him beat your team's brains in several times over the past month.

I know you have this dumb schtick where you're supposed to hate everything Nationals and irrationally boost everything Braves, but dear god is it tiresome to have to deal with someone who's not even trying to relate to others here like a human being.
   22. Moe Greene Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4177349)
Esoteric,

How did you enjoy Seattle?
   23. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4177355)
The idea that there's this national urge to see Harper is silly.


Look, I'm a Reds fan first, and a Mariners fan second. I don't have a dog in this fight. I voted for Harper in the final vote, and really do want to see him in the All-Star game. Baseball fans nationwide are excited by Harper. His story is one of the best, most exciting things that's happened to this sport in years.
   24. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4177356)
Okay. I guess if that's your thing. I was under the impression - hoping against the facts of humanity, perhaps - that the Harper hype had played out a la the Weiters hype from a few years ago. It's not like he's Mike Stanton or Andrew McCutchen.
Harper is anywhere from 1 (Stanton) to 4 (Weiters) years younger than any of those 3 were when they debuted. Further, he's hit better thus far (.826 OPS) than any of them (McCutchen .797, Stanton .711, Weiters .723) in many more PA (277, vs. McCutchen 166, Stanton 116, Weiters 117) and is playing for a winning team (NL best .590, McCutchen .432 (last in NLC), Stanton .477 (4th in NLE), Weiters .455 (last in ALE)). So no, he's not Weiters, Stanton or McCutchen - he's younger, better and played more than any of the 3 as rookies at the ASG.

And in the larger sense, I don't see the problem - the guy's hitting awfully well (123 OPS+, 127 RC+) and has been a regular since his call-up.
   25. Brian Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4177358)
As noted in today's Washington Post, Bryce Harper is younger than all but 3 players for the Futures Game!


That is the coolest thing I've learned today. Rickey, go back under your rock.
   26. Srul Itza Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4177359)
It's not like he's Mike Stanton or Andrew McCutchen.


At 19, Andrew McCutchen was putting up an .809 OPS -- between A and AA.

At 19, Giancarlo Mike Stanton was putting up an .842 OPS -- between A and AA.

   27. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4177361)
I'm not within 8 hours of DC, and I want to see Bryce Harper in the All-Star game.
   28. Depressoteric Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4177377)
Esoteric,

How did you enjoy Seattle?
Dear god it was GLORIOUS. Simply GLORIOUS. As you live there, you know how uncharacteristically perfect the weather was during the entire week, but talk about a lucky roll of the dice for us: between 66-72 degrees every day and delightfully sunny and breezy. No rain. The only clouds were picturesque ones.

Vancouver might have been even more beautiful, though. (We spent the first night in Seattle, drove to Vancouver for two nights, then spent the rest of the trip back in Seattle.) Stanley Park truly lives up to the hype -- especially in this weather -- as the most beautiful urban park in North America. The mountain & ocean scenery was breathtaking in both cities (and it was great fun driving north through WA and detouring through S.R. 11/Chuckanut Drive to get that staggering ocean cliffside view in Whatcom County), and the food was wonderful too. Spent tons of time at Pike Place in Seattle and Gastown in Vancouver...I dreamed last night of some of those meals, they were so good.

Meanwhile it was 104 degrees the whole time back home in DC, with no power until Friday. Yeah: we made the right decision.
   29. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 09, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4177418)
(and it was great fun driving north through WA and detouring through S.R. 11/Chuckanut Drive to get that staggering ocean cliffside view in Whatcom County)


I used to be the recreation co-ordinator for a senior center in Seattle. In the fall I did a day trip for the seniors where I drove the center's mini-bus up I-5, getting off the freeway at Burlington and driving north to Bellingham along that route. If you think it's beautiful now, just wait until the leaves change color in the fall...
   30. Moe Greene Posted: July 09, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4177433)
Esoteric:

Absolutely -- you couldn't have timed your trip any more perfectly. On July 3, we were still in our 10-month-long grey season. Suddenly, we hit summer on July 4, and it's been sunny & in the 70's every day since. Honestly, it's tough to beat summers here. While the PNW has a deserved reputation for gloomy weather, it is definitely not true during the summer.

And I agree with you 100% on Vancouver. What a beautiful city. If home prices weren't so ridiculous there, I'd consider moving. I enjoyed all the historic stuff in Gastown, although I found it a bit dodgy at night.

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip.
   31. geonose Posted: July 09, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4177438)
Amazingly, on Mike Ferrin's SiriusXM radio show today from FanFest, a Marlins fan also suggested that Ruggiano should have been selected when Stanton became unavailable.
   32. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 09, 2012 at 07:04 PM (#4177508)
Seattle has really been spectacularly beautiful lately. While it's gloomy and unpleasant for 9 months a year, the summers are really some of the most wonderful ones I've ever experienced.

In Mariners' season terms:
Oct-June: 2005-2012
July-Sept: 2001
   33. phredbird Posted: July 09, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4177536)
i vote we have a BTF vote. i'd rather see harper.

i was at his debut in L.A. ... very exciting player. he damn near ran out of his shoes when he got his first hit.
   34. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: July 09, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4177543)
i vote we have a BTF vote. i'd rather see harper.

Harper x 25, or however many times we're allowed to vote.
   35. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:06 PM (#4177567)
There are comments by numerous Primates sprinkled through multiple threads supporting Harper's All-Star candidacy. Noted Vulgarian Sam Hutchinson about the sole exception.

Harper in a landslide.
   36. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:22 PM (#4177589)
There are comments by numerous Primates sprinkled through multiple threads supporting Harper's All-Star candidacy. Noted Vulgarian Sam Hutchinson about the sole exception.


Thus, the problem of base populism in a nutshell.
   37. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4177607)
If you don't like it, you can just go stab yourselves in the neck with a giant foam rubber tomahawk.

For the record, I don't think that would be a very effective tool for neck-stabbing purposes.


Perhaps if it were frozen?
   38. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:38 PM (#4177625)
Perhaps if it were frozen?


Nah. It's going to crumble. It has not tension. You need tension in bladed weapons. You're better served with a ball point pen or something.
   39. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:44 PM (#4177637)
How about if it were frozen after being soaked in water?
   40. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4177643)
I haven't given enough thought to say yay or nay to a frozen tomahawk pop weapon.
   41. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 10, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4178014)
Jason Heyward is just Bryce Harper with a couple of years of hype-die-down. So decrying the suggestion that the former might have been a better choice because "we wanna see the young soon-to-be-superstar" is mildly amusing.
   42. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 10, 2012 at 08:11 AM (#4178108)
Jason Heyward is just Bryce Harper with a couple of years of hype-die-down. So decrying the suggestion that the former might have been a better choice because "we wanna see the young soon-to-be-superstar" is mildly amusing.
Except, of course, for the whole "At 19, Heyward was still in the minors" thing.
   43. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 10, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4178118)
Except, of course, for the whole "At 19, Heyward was still in the minors" thing.


So this "19" thing is what you're all hanging your hats on? I suppose you must own every Carly Rae Jepsen album, *ever.*
   44. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: July 10, 2012 at 09:07 AM (#4178134)
I know you have this dumb schtick where you're supposed to hate everything Nationals and irrationally boost everything Braves, but dear god is it tiresome to have to deal with someone who's not even trying to relate to others here like a human being.

Just enjoy watching the Nats kick the teeth out of Atlanta's heads again and again and again, like they've been doing all season.
   45. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 10, 2012 at 09:19 AM (#4178141)
Yea, that's it.

Because the All-Star Game isn't a popularity contest. I mean, we don't have fans vote for the starters, or the players vote for most of the back-ups (EDIT: Or a manager who's known to hold grudges pick the pitchers and rest of the bench). No, we pick our All-Stars purely on merit.

Which is why Roy Halladay (72 IP, ERA+ 100) was named to the team and Johnny Cueto (120 IP, ERA+ 175) wasn't.

You're either an idiot or obtuse, and I can't decide which. Bryce Harper is a star in a professional sport at an age the vast majority of players are still in A ball (notice the post above where he's younger than all but 3 of the players in the Futures Game). He's the only high school player anyone had ever heard of who wasn't the son of a former big leaguer, and he made good on the hype right out of the box.

Despite being in the league 2 years longer (and not being a teenager), Heyward just isn't any better than Harper. I know the truth hurts sometimes.
   46. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 10, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4178149)
Despite being in the league 2 years longer (and not being a teenager), Heyward just isn't any better than Harper. I know the truth hurts sometimes.


Heyward's been better than Harper this year, but don't let facts get in the way of your throat-gargling, bro.
   47. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 10, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4178317)
Heyward's been better than Harper this year, but don't let facts get in the way of your throat-gargling, bro.[/q]Heyward's been a better fielder this year, if you can believe half of a season of defensive metrics can tell you anything (especially the first half season of Harper's career). Offensively, they're the same player other than playing time:

wOBA: Harper .360, Heyward .362
wRC+: Harper 127, Heyward 129

Prefer the way BBRef calculates value?

oWAR: Harper 1.4 in 277 PA, Heyward 1.7 in 327 (remember, WAR is a counting stat so the difference is entirely playing time).

I'm actually now convinced you're being obtuse, because no one is this stupid.
   48. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4178372)
Heyward's been a better fielder this year, if you can believe half of a season of defensive metrics can tell you anything (especially the first half season of Harper's career). Offensively, they're the same player other than playing time:


I was under the impression that fielding mattered.
   49. cardsfanboy Posted: July 10, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4178441)
oWAR: Harper 1.4 in 277 PA, Heyward 1.7 in 327 (remember, WAR is a counting stat so the difference is entirely playing time).


Allen Craig 1.9 in 199 pa, if TLR wasn't such an anti-homer he would have picked him instead. Or even John Jay with his 1.3 in fewer plate appearances than Harper.

Maybe people need to realize that Harper is a bigger name than Heyward, and that does have something to do with him being in the game, who, outside of maybe Braves fans, wouldn't want Harper in the game?
   50. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: July 10, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4178802)
Only 32 players in baseball history have qualified for a batting title at age 19, and 22 of them were pre-1900. Only three 19-year-old position players since 1900 had a 2 WAR or better:

Mel Ott, 1928 (3.7 WAR)
Ken Griffey Jr, 1989 (2.9)
Ty Cobb, 1906 (2.3)

In a half a season, Harper's at 1.5, which already ninth on the list.

Yeah, he's something special, people. Enjoy.

   51. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 10, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4179366)
Except, of course, for the whole "At 19, Heyward was still in the minors" thing.


And the number 1 prospect in baseball, just like Harper. And at 20 he was a MLB All-Star. Not all that different. I'm glad to see Harper in the game, but let's not be silly.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Martin Hemner
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogPrado at second base not how Yanks Drew it up
(49 - 10:11am, Aug 21)
Last: Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 8-21-2014
(5 - 10:10am, Aug 21)
Last: Batman

NewsblogLester return to Boston a long shot; Cubs, Yankees are likely players
(30 - 10:05am, Aug 21)
Last: RickG

NewsblogOT: Politics, August 2014: DNC criticizes Christie’s economic record with baseball video
(4619 - 10:03am, Aug 21)
Last: Ron J2

NewsblogPosnanski: The Royals might actually know what they are doing
(49 - 10:00am, Aug 21)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

NewsblogAstros slugger Chris Carter: The most 2014 player of 2014
(3 - 9:59am, Aug 21)
Last: Bug Selig

NewsblogCurt Schilling Reveals He Was Diagnosed With Mouth Cancer in February, Believes Chewing Tobacco Was the Cause
(29 - 9:56am, Aug 21)
Last: Rusty Priske

NewsblogSabermetrics Gets Soft «
(6 - 9:54am, Aug 21)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread August, 2014
(457 - 9:46am, Aug 21)
Last: CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo

NewsblogSellout Crowd Turns out in AAA Charlotte for Native Son Carlos Rodon
(7 - 9:30am, Aug 21)
Last: TJ

NewsblogLA Times: Angels' Garrett Richards Suffers Knee Injury in Win Over Red Sox
(14 - 9:23am, Aug 21)
Last: jacksone (AKA It's OK...)

Newsblog[Ubaldo] Jimenez to the bullpen
(18 - 9:04am, Aug 21)
Last: Yeaarrgghhhh

NewsblogBrisbee: The 10 most underrated players in baseball, part 2
(24 - 8:52am, Aug 21)
Last: Rants Mulliniks

NewsblogGiants plan to protest bizarre loss at Wrigley
(78 - 8:24am, Aug 21)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - August 2014
(278 - 4:39am, Aug 21)
Last: RollingWave

Page rendered in 0.2919 seconds
53 querie(s) executed