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Sunday, June 24, 2012

Youkilis traded to White Sox

The Red Sox have reached a deal to trade Youkilis to the White Sox, sources told CBSSports.com’s Jon Heyman on Sunday afternoon.

Talks between the Red Sox and White Sox heated up Saturday, sources say, with the two teams haggling over how much of Youkilis’ contract (about $8 million remains) that the White Sox would pay. It’s not clear yet how much of the money the White Sox will be responsible for, or who the Red Sox will get in return.

The Red Sox have been determined to trade Youkilis, who lost his full-time job with the emergence of rookie third baseman Will Middlebrooks.

Youkilis’ presence in the lineup Sunday was something of a surprise, but it provided him with an emotional Fenway Park send-off. Youkilis went 2 for 4, and when he was removed for a pinch runner after a seventh-inning triple, he received a huge ovation.

Thanks to Pete.

Repoz Posted: June 24, 2012 at 05:10 PM | 162 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, white sox

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   101. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4165617)
the concern i would have as a white sox fan is boy does this make the lineup stocked with slow guys. dunn. konerko. aj. viciedo. ramirez isn't slow but his into a fair number of double plays.


I'm fine with a bunch of slow guys as Robin Ventura hasn't really figured out a way to best utilize the running game.

But yeah the double plays are annoying. I think the Sox hit into about 15 of them this weekend.
   102. Guapo Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4165626)
They obviously know the inner workings of the clubhouse better than I do but it is hard for me to imagine what Youk could be doing/would eventually do that would be so detrimental to the team as to just give him away.


Unauthorized Dancing In Clubhouse
   103. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4165628)
Except, as we saw with Ellsbury earlier, he was a huge pain in ### in the clubhouse and this time with his livelihood threatened he might be even worse.


And Ellsbury was so despondent over whatever Youk said/did that he had an MVP caliber season last year.
   104. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4165629)
youkilis is 33 and what, probably 225 on a 6'1" frame?

playing third base regularly is a loopy idea now that he has developed chronic injuries
   105. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4165636)
playing third base regularly is a loopy idea now that he has developed chronic injuries


Correct. They should've done something during the offseason as Youk has worked his way into 1b-dh status.
   106. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4165638)
And Ellsbury was so despondent over whatever Youk said/did that he had an MVP caliber season last year.


How did the team do?
   107. Lassus Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4165639)
Which multiple teams? We have no idea if that was the Red Sox blowing smoke or reporters making up stories.

Based on nothing, where multiple = more than two teams, I have a rather easy time believing that three teams called the Boston FO to enquire about Youkilis.
   108. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4165651)
I have a rather easy time believing that three teams called the Boston FO to enquire about Youkilis.


Maybe. We have no idea. Nor do we know if what was asked in return they were willing to give.

I'm not defending what they received but as this played out they had no leverage unless they were willing to develop leverage and the only way to do that was to put him in the lineup, which meant sitting better players. They want to win and winning meant keeping him on the bench.
   109. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4165659)
a good organization doesn't dump plan a until plan b is clear. did the sox have a clear plan b to youkilis to start the season?

i get the trade now if they think middlebrooks is any kind of for real because he is then a legit plan b

but trading youkilis in the offseason when you don't have a clearly defined plan b is very risky and is typically the sign of bad management.

ex: the guy we have driving the forklift is a bum. fire him. (1 day later) why is the warehouse all backed up? what do you mean nobody else is forklift certified and nobody can find a temp certified to drive a forkflift? what idiot allowed that to happen?

   110. ThisElevatorIsDrivingMeUpTheWall Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4165660)
How little did the Dodgers and Indians have to offer to make this deal look good?
   111. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4165662)

How little did the Dodgers and Indians have to offer to make this deal look good?


I wonder if they only offered minor leaguers, and Boston felt they had to get MLB-type talent in return to "help" this year's club, so as to not seem like they were totally punting on this season.
   112. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4165664)
but trading youkilis in the offseason when you don't have a clearly defined plan b is very risky and is typically the sign of bad management.


I didn't suggest trading him in the offseason. I suggested they had to do something about 3B in the offseason as Youk wasn't going to last there. One easy way would've been to keep Lowrie and see if he could handle the position.
   113. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4165666)
How little did the Dodgers and Indians have to offer to make this deal look good?


Did they offer anything?
   114. Nasty Nate Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4165668)
I suggested they had to do something about 3B in the offseason as Youk wasn't going to last there. One easy way would've been to keep Lowrie and see if he could handle the position.


It seems like the performance of Middlebrooks shows that they didn't have to do something about 3B in the offseason.
   115. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4165670)
I wonder what the odds are of Youkilis outhitting Middlebrooks over the rest of the season. Pretty good, I'd guess.
   116. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4165671)
boond

wasn't specifically responding to your post but thanks for the feedback

once they traded lowrie the sox tied themselves to youkilis at third base it would appear

   117. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4165675)
I'm not defending what they received but as this played out they had no leverage unless they were willing to develop leverage and the only way to do that was to put him in the lineup, which meant sitting better players. They want to win and winning meant keeping him on the bench.

Of course they had leverage! It's called walking the ### away. Nine times out of ten, when you do that, the party that's been low-balling crawls back with a better offer in hand. Because getting a lesser bargain is still infinitesimally better than getting no bargain at all.
   118. calhounite Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4165677)
Price negotiation is all about expectations. The price is the lowest the seller is willing to take that the buyer is willing to pay If the seller is KNOWN to be a distressed seller, ie, the good are useless, and, in fact, the continued possession of which is detrimental to the seller, ALL potential buyers will factor in this expectation in their evaluations of what the seller is willing to take, and, automatically, a drop in market value incurs.
   119. Fanshawe Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4165679)
And Ellsbury was so despondent over whatever Youk said/did that he had an MVP caliber season last year.


Well, right. But that's why you keep Ellsbury and trade away the guy who acted like a dick, had trouble staying healthy this year and has a history of injury problems, was mediocre at best when he actually made his way onto the field this year, and whose contract is about to expire.
   120. calhounite Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4165681)
hey, won't let me fix grammer.,.
   121. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4165687)
hey, won't let me fix grammer.,.

While I agree that Kelsey Grammer is a big a###### and should sire no children, there are laws and conventions that keep us from neutering him.
   122. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4165696)

Well, right. But that's why you keep Ellsbury and trade away the guy who acted like a dick, had trouble staying healthy this year and has a history of injury problems, was mediocre at best when he actually made his way onto the field this year, and whose contract is about to expire.


The bolded item is part of why you are in no rush to trade him. You aren't stuck with this guy for the next five years, he's not Alfonso Soriano (I hear the Cubs would listen if a team called) or Vernon Wells, he's a rental. If he truly becomes a jackass you have the option of releasing him or trading him for this sort of lousy package in a month, the White Sox aren't going to pull Brett Lillebridge off the table.

In order to justify this deal as it was made someone needs to be able to say with certainty that Kevin Youkilis is going to actively cost the Boston Red Sox games by being a spectacular ass in the clubhouse. I'll concede that that is a possibility but the two players we can say with certainty he had issues with during his tenure were Manny Ramirez who played at an incredibly high level and Jacoby Ellsbury who played at an incredibly high level. We also have comments from the man who took Youk's job saying in the Boston Herald the other day
“He’s been awesome,” Middlebrooks said. “He’s helped me out so much, man — not just baseball, but off the field, how to handle everything.” .


Given the evidence that I have at my disposal, I have a difficult time believing Youk is causing tangible problems.

Youk
   123. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4165714)
I'm not going to read this thread now. I'm angry and sad. This trade is bullshit.
   124. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4165729)
Did Jose just sign his post as if he were actually Kevin Youkilis?
   125. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4165730)
I don't know what happened there. For the record I am not Kevin Youkilis.
   126. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4165732)
We are all Kevin Youkilis now.

Youk
   127. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4165737)
I've decided that today I'll sign all my work emails thusly.

Youk
   128. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4165750)
It seems like the performance of Middlebrooks shows that they didn't have to do something about 3B in the offseason.

I don't know, Middlebrooks has a .380 BAbip this season, 37 strikeouts and 8 walks... that .365 OBP is kind of empty.

Youk
   129. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4165753)
We are all Kevin Youkilis now.
And Mike Crudale.

Youk
   130. Zipperholes Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4165757)
Agree with Jose. Especially when there are supposedly multiple interested teams... you just have to some away with something... anything.
They're gaining about $1.5M cash and the services of two players (to whom they have to pay a prorated salary).
   131. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4165761)
They're gaining about $1.5M cash and the services of two players (to whom they have to pay a prorated salary).


Neither player is going to play a meaningful role if the Sox are going to contend (this year or in the future). The $1.5 M could come in handy I suppose but I'm not counting on that being a difference maker.
   132. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4165770)
I hate when Albert Belle and we are all Kevin Youkilis.
   133. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4165784)
Neither player is going to play a meaningful role if the Sox are going to contend (this year or in the future).
While I mostly agree, I'll also point out that at the beginning of the year we would have said the same about Cody Ross, Daniel Nava, Podsednik, Middlebrooks...
   134. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4165785)
I don't know, Middlebrooks has a .380 BAbip this season, 37 strikeouts and 8 walks... that .365 OBP is kind of empty.
I think you mean "inflated", not "empty." Middlebrooks has hit for excellent power, so he's not lacking in the secondary skills department.
   135. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4165787)
Neither player is going to play a meaningful role if the Sox are going to contend (this year or in the future).

While I mostly agree, I'll also point out that at the beginning of the year we would have said the same about Cody Ross, Daniel Nava, Podsednik, Middlebrooks...


What?
   136. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4165812)
What?
I think as the year started, we would not have expected those guys I listed to be meaningful contributors to this year's team. Ross may be a bad example as he was on the opening day roster and playing nearly every day from the start, but the others...would you disagree that it's surprising that the other three have a) played as much and b) played as well as they have so far? Something like 4+ combined wins so far?
   137. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4165818)
Cody Ross, when signed, was the 3.5th outfielder and was reasonably expected to play a meaningful role on a contending team this year. WMB was one of the top (and closest to ML-ready) prospects in the system and as such was reasonably expected to play a meaningful role on a contending team in the future.

Podsednik I'll give you. I don't recall that he was even connected to the Sox prior to Opening Day but I could be wrong about that.

As for Nava we'd have to split hairs. I expected to see him in Boston at some point this season. Meaningful role? Perhaps not.

The original point about the guys acquired in the Youk deal remains true - they're filler. Junk. The same cannot in any sense be said about at least half of the guys you mentioned.

I don't even know why I'm arguing about this like it matters. Sorry. Bad day all around so far.
   138. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4165824)
I don't think it was a huge reach for Ross (as you note) or Middlebrooks to play a big role. He came to camp as the team's #1 prospect according to Baseball America playing a position where the incumbent has had injury issues in recent years. He's been better than expected but that Middlebrooks spent 6 weeks as a starter early in the season because Youk was on the DL was hardly a surprise. Nava and Pods...agreed.

Having said that I stand by my statement. It's possible that Lillebridge might hit .380 in a sample size fluke but I'm not expecting it.
   139. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4165829)
I think you mean "inflated", not "empty." Middlebrooks has hit for excellent power, so he's not lacking in the secondary skills department.

Yes, that makes more sense.
   140. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4165830)
I don't even know why I'm arguing about this like it matters. Sorry. Bad day all around so far.
No worries. My comment (like many of mine) was a pretty pointless throwaway -- with any point I did have probably being more along the lines of "Hey, we've gotten some damn good work from guys you wouldn't have expected it from."

Even Ross--yeah, SSS and all but a .581 SLG over 40+ games? How likely was that?
   141. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4165835)
Of course they had leverage! It's called walking the ### away. Nine times out of ten, when you do that, the party that's been low-balling crawls back with a better offer in hand. Because getting a lesser bargain is still infinitesimally better than getting no bargain at all.


They don't have leverage if everyone knows they want to get rid of him. Yes, the Red Sox could walk away but they have to look at that miserable ######## on the bench pissing and moaning. All the while, stories that they've passed him around like a hooker at a bachelor party are flying fast. And there are stories that the locker room is a mess. Who is the reason the locker room is a mess? Could it be the guy who lost his job with the bad attitude and who's already been called out by the manager? Youk isn't gaining in value, he's losing value and everyone knows it. They moved Youk as if one more day with him was one day too many.
   142. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4165842)
It's possible that Lillebridge might hit .380 in a sample size fluke but I'm not expecting it.[/q

Lillebridge's upside is a better fielding Jeff Keppinger. There's value in that if he can hit as consistently as Keppinger does, especially against lhp. Stewart? Who knows.
   143. rlc Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4165845)
I am he as Youk is he as Youk is me and we are all together.
See how he hits like it's a hockey stick, see how he bobs.
I'm crying.

Chicken rolled in cornflakes, waiting for the beer to come.
Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody monster.
Josh, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow wide.
I am goose eggman, they are goose eggmen.
I hit the wall-ball, Youk Youk achoo.


Best Regards,
Youk
   144. veer bender Posted: June 25, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4165855)
If he truly becomes a jackass you have the option of releasing him or trading him for this sort of lousy package in a month, the White Sox aren't going to pull Brett Lillebridge off the table.


This is the part that I truly don't get. Ok, let's just grant that it's understood that the presence of Kevin Youkilis is closely correlated with the incidence of clubhouse cancer (CC). Why not wait and see if the CC ever actually emerges* before removing the compromised, but still useful organ? Everyone knows that CC clears up immediately following Youkectomy, so what's the rush?

* The diagnostic symptom being the losing of games at a rate out of proportion with the talent on the roster, which the sox were clearly not suffering from in recent days.
   145. booond Posted: June 25, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4165872)
Everyone knows that CC clears up immediately following Youkectomy, so what's the rush?


From their actions they wanted him gone before it spread. I wonder if he spread word that there were clubhouse issues.
   146. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: June 25, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4165883)
I suspect that I'm trying to hold back an ocean with a teaspoon, but I hate hate hate "WMB" as a nickname. Hate.
   147. Zipperholes Posted: June 25, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4165885)
If he truly becomes a jackass you have the option of releasing him or trading him for this sort of lousy package in a month, the White Sox aren't going to pull Brett Lillebridge off the table.
If they go out and acquire Chase Headley in the meantime, of course they are.
   148. Nasty Nate Posted: June 25, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4165890)
I suspect that I'm trying to hold back an ocean with a teaspoon, but I hate hate hate "WMB" as a nickname. Hate.


I agree.

As an alternative, I suggest Wily Mo Middlebrooks
   149. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 25, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4165901)
If they go out and acquire Chase Headley in the meantime, of course they are.


Then so be it. The Red Sox are getting very little benefit out of this trade so that's a minimal risk. Chicago pulls Lillebridge, oh well, find another team willing to give up a utility man and a crappy minor league pitcher for Youk. Can't find one and he's become an incredible pain in the ass? Release him. The saving of $1.5 million plus Stewart and Lillebridge is just not a reason to strike while the iron is hot.

In the meantime if Middlebrooks stops posting a .390 BABIP or someone gets hurt or maybe Youk starts to hit then you've got an awfully good fall back position. I just don't see the rush on this deal.
   150. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 25, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4165924)
I continue to agree with every word Jose has ever published on the Youk Question.

I don't think "WMB" is a nickname. Nobody CALLS him that. It's just internet shorthand. He does need a nickname. I think I may call him Levi. Kid's got the baseball body. Between that, prospect status, utter lack of control of the strike zone, and now all this CC -> Youkectomy drama, he really is the anti-Youk.
   151. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 25, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4165926)
I think I may call him Levi.


But Youkilis was the Jewish one!
   152. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 25, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4165940)
It's not worth starting up yet another Youkilis thread for it, but Michael "Ken Tremendous" Schur had a nice requiem for Youkilis on Grantland.
   153. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: June 25, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4165941)
He does need a nickname.
Volition Centerstreams.
   154. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: June 25, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4165948)
They don't have leverage if everyone knows they want to get rid of him. Yes, the Red Sox could walk away but they have to look at that miserable ######## on the bench pissing and moaning.

They got next to nothing in this trade. If the trade market is that screwy, then they are better off sitting on him, and getting nothing. At least the next time you are in a "must trade" situation, other teams will have to respect that leverage.
   155. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4166076)
They got next to nothing in this trade.

They could have had Alfonso Soriano.

Yuk.
   156. zonk Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:50 PM (#4166221)
They could have had Alfonso Soriano.


I'm not saying it would have been a better deal, but after getting hot in May, Soriano really hasn't stopped hitting yet.... He looked like he was going to do the swan dive back to dead cat bounce land a couple weeks back, but he's picked it back up the last week.

If it weren't for the two years left after this one, I think the Cubs would legitimately be able to find some takers for him at this point without having to eat much salary. His OPS+ in May was 154 and 153 this month. If it weren't for his absolutely putrid April (and first week or so of May), he'd be a legitimate all-star candidate. As it is, I think it will be an open question as to whether the Cubs' one rep is him, Castro, or LaHair. I'd like to see LaHair, but current trends for all regarded continue - I think fonsie might well deserve the trip.
   157. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 25, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4166227)
He does need a nickname.


Brooks Schmidt.
   158. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 25, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4166246)
They don't have leverage if everyone knows they want to get rid of him. Yes, the Red Sox could walk away but they have to look at that miserable ######## on the bench pissing and moaning. All the while, stories that they've passed him around like a hooker at a bachelor party are flying fast. And there are stories that the locker room is a mess. Who is the reason the locker room is a mess? Could it be the guy who lost his job with the bad attitude and who's already been called out by the manager? Youk isn't gaining in value, he's losing value and everyone knows it. They moved Youk as if one more day with him was one day too many.


Why so much hate for Youk? I really don't get it...yes, the guy is rather intense, yes he clashed with Manny, yes he clashed with Ellsbury at one point. So what? I am solidly in line with Youk on the Youk-vs-Valentine front (obv as much as can be known). Let's see - manager pulls a dick move and calls Youk out, who is then immediately defended by other players and Valentine tries to retreat from his statement. Youk is then upset Valentine didn't come talk to him about playing time. Valentine said he though someone else had talked to Youk. WTF does a manager do if they don't even talk to a player about playing time? Then, when Youk is traded, everyone asked about it says what a great guy he was, including the player replacing Youk. So again, why is he a bad guy?
   159. madvillain Posted: June 27, 2012 at 02:48 AM (#4167463)
Just looking at this from the White Sox' angle, this is a helluva trade. Lillibridge is versatile, but he can't really play anything other than LF, 1B, and maybe CF at anything better than replacement level. His bat, while carrying a bit of pop, has no value either, due to his inability to make enough contact. He's a decent bench player, nothing more. Stewart, well, Stewart is horse #### right now. He has a 90mph straight as an arrow fastball and no off speed pitches he can consistently throw for a strike.

He's a guy that lives on the margins on MLB and it requires him to throw harder than 90mph. His velocity is down this year, so maybe it will bounce back, but even then he's still, at absolute best, a middle reliever.

Meanwhile, White Sox 3b have combined for something around -2 WAR so far, even finding a 1 WAR player (and maybe that's what Youk is now) is helpful. Also helpful is that there is now no need to rush Morel back from his injury.
   160. JJ1986 Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4184121)
And now the return is just Zach Stewart:

#RedSox Lillibridge's locker has been cleared out. Will be designated for assignment.
   161. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4184128)
Does Ben Cherington last a year?
   162. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4184129)
Youkilis has a 400/475 line in two weeks with the White Sox.

Gordon Edes has published a piece on Youkilis' clashes in the clubhouse with both Valentine and a number of his teammates. I think we can say pretty clearly that this trade was not about Youkilis being a bad player, and all about the clubhouse. (It wasn't, apparently, only about the Youk-V relationship.)

What a shitty trade.
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