Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Transaction Oracle > Discussion
Transaction Oracle
— A Timely Look at Transactions as They Happen

Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Astros - Acquired Jennings

Houston Astros - Acquired P Jason Jennings from the Colorado Rockies for P Jason Hirsh, OF Willy Taveras and P Taylor Buchholz.

I would’ve liked this trade better for the Rockies if they hadn’t picked up Taveras - his BA and OBP are just not-terrible-enough that he’ll look marginally useful for the Rockies and with his defensive reputation, which seems to have been earned solely by virtue of him being fast and a bad hitter, will make him look like a solution to the Rockies and eventually, some other stupid team.  Coors is no longer the Best Hitters Park Ever, but it’s still a decent hitters park and increases hits of all types, not just homers.  I could start writing the entry for the Taveras free agent signing now and open it up come December 2010, I think.

Hirsh, of course, is the prize of this trade.  He’s a good pitching prospect, though not on the Hughes/Bailey level and Buchholz has potential, if some injury concerns, but I’m not sure I’d do this if I were the Rockies.  You have a starting pitcher who can survive in Coors and you’re going to cash him in and start over?  Kind of risky.

I think this works for the Astros.  The Lee signing is no longer needlessly blocking their young outfielders, the only thing the farm system has to offer.  Taveras was simply in the way - getting another real bat into the outfield is very important when you’re going from Clemens/Pettitte to Jennings/Williams.  The Astros would be smart to get Jennings signed to a long-term contract as soon as possible.  After all, he’ll cost some dough now and when was the last pitcher to have his stock fall after leaving Coors?  The Astros will not be able to replace Jennings easily.

2007 ZiPS Projections
———————————————————————————————————
Player     AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB   BA   OBP   SLG
———————————————————————————————————
Taveras     549 98 167 23 4   4 36 37 86 35 .304 .353 .383

 

2007 ZiPS Projections
——————————————————————————————-
Player     W   L   G GS   IP   H   ER HR BB SO   ERA
——————————————————————————————-
Buchholz   7   9 26 22 130 137   70 20 48 85 4.85
Jennings   10 10 29 29 192 187   89 19 75 131 4.17
Hirsh     10 12 30 30 167 170   90 21 75 119 4.85
——————————————————————————————-

 

Dan Szymborski Posted: December 13, 2006 at 02:56 PM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 03:53 PM (#2259972)
I wonder if Colorado would have taken Patterson and Birkins for him?
   2. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 03:58 PM (#2259983)
Birkins. Yeah.

I meant Britton, the guy they sent to NYY for Wright.
   3. Spahn Insane Posted: December 13, 2006 at 03:59 PM (#2259984)
Interesting idea. Patterson probably would be as valuable at Coors as he'd be anywhere.
   4. Rivers McCown Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:14 PM (#2260005)
The general consensus seems to be that the Astros gave up too much here, but assuming they are locked into Brad Ausmus at catcher for some reason, getting rid of Taveras is a good way to expand the offense a little bit; assuming Burke plays as well as people think he should. Garner was too attached to Willie's speed game to not give him the majority of the at-bats.

That said, he could've just shopped Taveras individually instead of taking 1 year and the right of first refusal to pay Jason Jennings a lot of money for 6 years of Jason Hirsh.
   5. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:14 PM (#2260007)
Mmm, yeah, I'd say that deal would have been better for the Rox. Jennings doesn't look great in HOU, either. In fact, he looks a bit like Kris Benson.

Who are the Astros playing in CF now?
   6. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:16 PM (#2260010)
Oh, it'll be Burke, then?
   7. Rivers McCown Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:18 PM (#2260013)
I'm assuming.

Theres been some talk of Jason Lane playing center too, but I think everyone remembers the Craig Biggio "experiment" pretty well, and doubt that will last.
   8. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:20 PM (#2260014)
Lane, ooooch.

I think we're seeing the 4th-OF stage of his career. I think the starting OF stage only lasta bout two years anyway, no?
   9. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:21 PM (#2260017)
I meant Lane's days as a good starting OF only seemed to last about two years.
   10. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:30 PM (#2260029)
Actually, I must stand correctd on my JJ-Benson statement. By ZiPS, JJ with HOU looks quite a bit better than Benson with BAL.

I would have been OK with C-Pat and Britton for Jennings. Not ecstatic, but OK. Maybe the O's then could have gotten Church away from the Nats and stuck him in CF.

I'll stop now.
   11. a wider scope of derision Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:32 PM (#2260031)
...but it's still a decent hitters park and increases hits of all types, not just homers.


Didn't all the Rockies starters have HR/F rates at or below league average last year? Seems a little suspicious... And how will Jennings' 7% HR/F translate to the Juice Box? (Answer: Not well.)
   12. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:36 PM (#2260036)
So you think he'll do worse than the 4.17 ERA that Dan has up there?
   13. John M. Perkins Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:45 PM (#2260050)
Howzabout adding Ascencio to this ZiPS transaction?

Hunter Pence looks like the CF to me.
   14. a wider scope of derision Posted: December 13, 2006 at 04:53 PM (#2260062)
So you think he'll do worse than the 4.17 ERA that Dan has up there?


Ummm.... Maybe? (How's that for decisiveness?) Humidor or no, I'll not quite sure what to make of Colorado's park-factor this year, and how that it translate to Minute Maid.
   15. Mike Green Posted: December 13, 2006 at 05:11 PM (#2260083)
Tavares performed well in 2006 on all the defensive metrics that I could find- Dial, PMR, BP's Rate. At age 24, he improved his W rate, his K rate and his base-stealing effectiveness. Yes, he could be Juan Pierre in 3 years, but in the meanwhile he is a valuable player.
   16. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 13, 2006 at 05:16 PM (#2260091)
Hunter Pence looks like the CF to me.


No, it's probably going to be Burke.

-- MWE
   17. shoewizard Posted: December 13, 2006 at 05:19 PM (#2260097)
Shouldn't Houston just go and offer to up Jenning about 2 million in 2007, and then offer 4/48 for 2008-2011, with negotiating room to go to 4/52?

The two million bump THIS year, plus the security through 2011 might make him bite and pass up free agency.

If guys like Pettitte and Zito are worth 16 million or more in this market, it sure would seem like a good idea to enter these negotiations right now, instead of waiting. Maybe that would look to anxious, but they could sell it as "committed".

How much do you guys think it would take to extend Jenning right now? Am I estimating too low? How high would you go?
   18. Rivers McCown Posted: December 13, 2006 at 05:28 PM (#2260110)
I couldn't see giving him more than 4/54-56. Preseason anyway. Then again, I am not really sure how his numbers will translate down from Coors, and thats what would scare me about committing the kind of money that would tell him that he's better than Gil Meche.
   19. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 13, 2006 at 05:32 PM (#2260117)
Tavares performed well in 2006 on all the defensive metrics that I could find- Dial, PMR, BP's Rate. At age 24, he improved his W rate, his K rate and his base-stealing effectiveness. Yes, he could be Juan Pierre in 3 years, but in the meanwhile he is a valuable player.

And even if he does turn into Juan Pierre, don't you think that will make him attractive as trade bait to some tools obsessed GM looking for speed at the top of his lineup?
   20. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 13, 2006 at 05:34 PM (#2260119)
Tavares performed well in 2006 on all the defensive metrics that I could find- Dial, PMR, BP's Rate.

And pretty poorly in 2005 (and 2006 was above-average, but hardly Erstadian). And despite the improvement in his walk-rate from terrible to a bit less terrible, he was actually worse offensively in 2006 than he was in 2005. When we're talking a guy 4 or 5 runs above replacement level offensively, I want serious defense before I care about him.
   21. Suff Posted: December 13, 2006 at 06:45 PM (#2260211)
I watch almost every Astros game, so here is my scouting report on these players...

If you actually watch Taveras play, it's pretty obvious that he's improved defensively. He's always had a good arm and pretty good range, but in '05 he had the annoying habit that only popped up occasionally in '06 to come out of nowhere to catch up to a flyball, only to have it bounce out of his glove. Also, for some reason in the first half-to-100-games of '05 he forgot how to judge a flyball completely at times. He literally looked more lost in the OF than any major leaguer I had ever seen (and as an Astros fan I've seen Biggio, Daryle Ward, and Mike Lamb try of play the OF). But he worked that out. I consider him a good OF right now. As a hitter, he's still better when he gets fooled, sticks his butt out, chops it somewhere, and beats it out. When he's hot (like during the 30-game hit streak last year), he'll hit looping liners into right center a lot, and he bunts effectively. It's really not that he has no power (one of his HR his rookie year was one of the biggest of the year by an Astro); he just can't make solid contact, and a lot of time it works for him. He's also a very bad basestealer, for his speed. His numbers don't look as bad, because he's learned to go when there's no way he'll get caught. But if I needed a clutch steal, I would have rather had Burke or Bruntlett out there.

The problem with Buchholz is that he's a mental midget who doesn't know how to not throw a thigh-high fastball down the middle when things start to go bad, which is why he has 2-inning, 11-run outings.

I really wish they could have traded someone other than Hirsh in this deal. He had a hard time learning that major leaguers don't swing through high 92-mph fastballs as often as AAA hitters, but his minor league record is too good (in my estimation) to trade him away so quickly, along with others, to get Jason Jennings.
   22. Suff Posted: December 13, 2006 at 06:46 PM (#2260217)
From everything I've heard, Hunter Pence can't play CF, and Chris Burke is being handed the CF job, with Jason Lane on hand for when Burke plays 2B.
   23. AROM Posted: December 13, 2006 at 06:53 PM (#2260227)
I meant Lane's days as a good starting OF only seemed to last about two years.

Good starting OF? I missed that completely.

Tavares probably won't benefit much from Coors field. Doesn't he get more bunt and infield hits than anyone in baseball? Coors won't help with those. It didn't help Pierre either.
   24. Mike Green Posted: December 13, 2006 at 06:57 PM (#2260234)
The major reason for Taveras' very slight decline in offensive performance in 2006 was his BABIP decline. Given his speed and age and declining K rate, the ZIPS projection looks good to me. Even in Coors, that's adequate production for a fine-fielding centerfielder. Ideally, you stick him in the #8 slot in the lineup, or if you want to be truly avant-garde, have the pitcher bat 8th, Taveras 9th and stick a fine hitter in the leadoff slot.

It's true that most managers will have him bat leadoff and that diminishes his value, unless he makes a leap forward offensively.
   25. Boots Day Posted: December 13, 2006 at 06:57 PM (#2260235)
Last year the Rockies had Cory Sullivan in center for most of the season. He played decent defense, put up a 79 OPS+, and lost his job by season's end. So they trade for Willy Taveras, who played decent defense in Houston and put up a 72 OPS+.

The one good thing about Taveras is that he's still pretty young, will be 25 next season, so the Rockies should get the most valuable chunk of his career, such as it is.
   26. Mister High Standards Posted: December 13, 2006 at 07:09 PM (#2260243)
Seems like a win/win.

The trade completely hinges on two things:

From the Rockies perspective: How well Hirsh's stuff translates to the majors. If it translates as well as a typical pitcher then, this is a great move for them.

From the Astros perspective: If they can lock up the 28 year old Jennings to a long term contract, at or below the market rate. As the NL central looks winnable it makes sense for the Astros to be resistant to going into the season with 3 young pitchers in the rotation. As it stands now, they look like a much better bet.
   27. stubbyc Posted: December 13, 2006 at 07:10 PM (#2260245)
From everything I've heard, Hunter Pence can't play CF, and Chris Burke is being handed the CF job, with Jason Lane on hand for when Burke plays 2B.

Pence will be the CF in RR at the start of the year in my best estimation. Purpura even made the comment that Taveras was likely to be "pushed" from CF by Pence eventually.
   28. Rear Admiral Piazza Posted: December 13, 2006 at 07:18 PM (#2260261)
Some random thoughts:

I think Jennings will be better than Pettitte next year.

It's also no coincidence that Jennings is from Texas.

I like Hirsh, though, but you are talking about the number five starter this year and the number three next year, maybe.

Taveras was wildly overrated and frankly clearing up the outfield works perfect, so long as it doesn't mean more Jason Lane.
   29. Suff Posted: December 13, 2006 at 08:21 PM (#2260398)
The major reason for Taveras' very slight decline in offensive performance in 2006 was his BABIP decline.

I truly believe that this is because he was hitting the ball BETTER. Taveras is so far from being an actual good hitter, it benefits him more to make worse contact. He can beat out a slow roller to the left side, but a hard grounder to short is an out.
   30. 33Boots Posted: December 13, 2006 at 10:49 PM (#2260591)
If Buchholz gets put in the bullpen he can be a force. He was dialing it up to 96 early in the year in the pen, and he was blowing hitters away. Hate this deal for the Astros, a lot.
   31. peter21 Posted: December 14, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2260786)
Teams don't trade players, they trade contracts.

And if you're going to give up a 0-3 pitcher with an excellent chance to be at least average during his 0-3 years, you'd better get back either a top-of-the-line player, or someone who you can control for more than one year.

I would not have dealt Hirsh straight up for Jennings. And while Taveras and Buchholz aren't use pieces, their inclusion just adds to the pain for the Astros (if for no other reason than they cannot be included in a different trade).

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to pay Andy Pettitte an additional $2 mil?
   32. stubbyc Posted: December 14, 2006 at 08:33 AM (#2261045)
Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to pay Andy Pettitte an additional $2 mil?

Why are people staying this? It was the player option not the 2 million dollars.
   33. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: December 14, 2006 at 09:06 AM (#2261053)
Coors is no longer the Best Hitters Park Ever

Do you mean that it's not as good as Coors of years' past, or do you mean that there's another park that's better? If so, which one?
   34. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 14, 2006 at 09:21 AM (#2261055)
Arizona's gotten close. They were even last year, but that's with the anomolous first half for Coors.
   35. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: December 14, 2006 at 09:24 AM (#2261056)
Do you mean that it's not as good as Coors of years' past, or do you mean that there's another park that's better? If so, which one?

IIRC, Chase is now the most hitter-ific park.
   36. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: December 14, 2006 at 09:25 AM (#2261057)
Arizona's gotten close. They were even last year, but that's with the anomolous first half for Coors.


If I were you, I would listen to Vaux and not me.
   37. CoastalFan Posted: December 15, 2006 at 02:35 AM (#2261898)
I hate this trade as a Hirsh fan, but it's lovely to get Taveras off the roster. Burke in center I can deal with - that will put Luke Scott, Lee, and some Lane won't be bad - he has hit decent in the past.
   38. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 15, 2006 at 03:22 AM (#2261948)
Do you mean that it's not as good as Coors of years' past, or do you mean that there's another park that's better? If so, which one?

Old-fashioned Pachinko Palace Coors.

And anyone who replies with "Lake Front Park" totally gets whomped next time I see them.
   39. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 16, 2006 at 07:44 PM (#2263239)
Good news: The Astros get a power-sinker pitcher to pitch in front of perhaps the best defensive SS in the game (Everett) and a pretty good 3B (Ensberg).

Bad news: the Astros get a power-sinker righty to pitch in front of Craig Biggio....
   40. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 06:21 AM (#2263613)
and a pretty good 3B (Ensberg).

Bad news: the Astros get a power-sinker righty to pitch in front of Craig Biggio....
The worse news: the Astros drastically underrate Ensberg and their is a good chance he's not going to be starting for them all year.
   41. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 06:28 AM (#2263616)
BTW-I think this is a terrible trade for the Astros. Jennings posted the lowest babip (which largely depends on luck during a season) of his career by about 20 points. Fly ball pitchers do have a little bit better babip, and Jennings did give up more fly balls last year, but not enough to warrant that type of change. Also, home runs allowed are largely a function of fly balls allowed, and Jennings gave up HRs at a lower rate than he had previously by far (1/13 innings vs 1/8 innings). So he experienced some hit luck and HR luck last year. His only genuine improvement was cutting his walk rate.

I don't see much difference between Taveras and Juan Pierre except age; and Pierre got a 5/45 million dollar deal. Hirsh is probably not going to be an ace but is perhaps one of the best bets

So four years of a below market paid Taveras, six of a below market Hirsh, and Bucholz-not quite a boondoggle, for one year of Jennings. Terrible. I wouldn't have done Hirsh straight up for him.
   42. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 06:31 AM (#2263617)
I think this works for the Astros. The Lee signing is no longer needlessly blocking their young outfielders, the only thing the farm system has to offer. Taveras was simply in the way - getting another real bat into the outfield is very important when you're going from Clemens/Pettitte to Jennings/Williams
This is a non-sequitur; the logic here is equivalent to saying that you should throw away something that you don't want, even if other people value it highly. You should sell that thing you don't want but somebody else does at market value.
   43. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 06:33 AM (#2263618)
I don't see much difference between Taveras and Juan Pierre except age; and Pierre got a 5/45 million dollar deal. Hirsh is probably not going to be an ace but is perhaps one of the best bets
to be a decent MLB starter of all SP prospects.
   44. Miko Supports Shane's Spam Habit Posted: December 17, 2006 at 06:49 AM (#2263629)
I wouldn't have done Hirsh straight up for him.

Do you have similar issues with Hirsh's AAA numbers? 7.73K/9, but only 94 H and 5 HR in 137 IP. Those numbers don't seem to go together.

What is Hirsh like, scout-wise. Sickels describes him as someone who now consistently hits 90-93 with the fb and has a "plus slider."

Does he project as well as Jeff Francis did (who is much different stuff-wise, but seemed like a more-heralded prospect)?
   45. stubbyc Posted: December 17, 2006 at 06:56 AM (#2263632)
The worse news: the Astros drastically underrate Ensberg and their is a good chance he's not going to be starting for them all year.

Sigh. Purpura has been sending out not so subtle messages all offseason that Ensberg will be the third baseman next year and that he will most likely bounce back. I don't know where the notion started that the Astros are drastically trying to rid themselves of Ensberg but it seems widespread.
   46. stubbyc Posted: December 17, 2006 at 07:07 AM (#2263638)
What is Hirsh like, scout-wise. Sickels describes him as someone who now consistently hits 90-93 with the fb and has a "plus slider."

I'd say that's pretty accurate from what I saw at the ML level from him. He's more often on the low side of that though. 90-91 and occasionally at around 94. The 6'8 frame should make it tougher for hitters to pick the ball up though. His slider was his main strikeout pitch but his control of his slider was horrendous. The other secondary stuff (change, curve) was weak. I think he has a decent shot at being a middle of the rotation guy, but his upside isn't all that high. I just got the feeling (for better or worse) that the Astros were never big on Hirsh. His attitude problems didn't help either.

Buchholz is the complete opposite. He has outstanding stuff. Low to mid 90s fastball, plus curve, plus slider, good changeup. The results have not measured up with the stuff mainly becuase he fell apart whenever he got runners on base last year. He has had injury issues that were enough to cause the White Sox to nix the Garland deal. I would say he has less of a chance to last as a ML pitcher than Hirsh, but he has a higher upside.
   47. base ball chick Posted: December 17, 2006 at 11:05 PM (#2263922)
burke will play center. he is pretty good - takes good routes to the ball, unlike willy, and he can come forward to catch a ball. unlike willy. and he never miss the cutoff man. unlike willy.

bruntlett can back him up. i have watched bruntlett play center a few times and he was surprisingly good. actually i thought he was better in center than he is at ss. and he is supposed to be a good fielding infielder.

pence has not played center before. a few guys i talked to in corpus who go to hooks games said that pence is not a good fielder. so we will have to see how he does in round rock.

back on willy and his hitting - he does best when he deliberately tries to get infield hits. he is terrible at getting good clean hits thru the 5.5 hole and to right. i think that after he hit those long doubles in the series last year, he decided to try to keep hitting like that and he got worse. and for some reason he just can't lay down a bunt for a squeeze. or hit with MOB.

- as for ensberg, the FANS drastically underrate him. best i can tell, most fans want him gone and replaced with aubrey huff. i am NOT joking. but i have heard ALL the columnists say that we need to "solve third base" for next year. i would not be even a little bit surprised if the stros WERE shopping ensberg. who is a pretty darn good fielder, too.

hirsh i watched all 9 of his starts. it ain't the speed it's the motion. there is none. he better learn to locate that FB in colorado is all i can say. buchholz has much much better stuff. ELECTRIC. seriously. he was another guy who was hurt who didn't tell anyone last year. (finger blister or tendon or something...)

i am not understanding all ths jennings extension talk. WHY does everyone think he is that freaking stupid? he's watching gil freaking meche get 55 mil for FIVE years. WHY is he gonna pass up free agency and sign a FOUR year contract for only 10 or 12 mill a year? cmon. jennings wouldn't sign an extension with the rockies - said he wanted to go to FA. so WHY would he sign one with houston?
   48. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 11:24 PM (#2263930)
I wouldn't have done Hirsh straight up for him.

Do you have similar issues with Hirsh's AAA numbers? 7.73K/9, but only 94 H and 5 HR in 137 IP. Those numbers don't seem to go together.
Yes, I do. Hirsh is not quite as good as his 2.10 ERA at AAA last year suggests, either; if he was then he would be arguably the top pitching prospect in the universe. But Hirsh's 05 is better than any season Jennings ever had before 06 as well (2.87 ERA; 4/1 kbb ratio, 12 hrs in 172 IP at AA; it was at a park that isn't good for home run power, fyi).

Keep in mind that minor league numbers are just as good at predicting future performance as major league numbers, once you account for league and park effects; as long as the numbers aren't being put up by a 28 year old in his fourth season at AAA.
   49. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 11:32 PM (#2263934)
The worse news: the Astros drastically underrate Ensberg and their is a good chance he's not going to be starting for them all year.

Sigh. Purpura has been sending out not so subtle messages all offseason that Ensberg will be the third baseman next year and that he will most likely bounce back. I don't know where the notion started that the Astros are drastically trying to rid themselves of Ensberg but it seems widespread.
Sigh. Ensberg has been in the big leagues for four years. In half of those years, he was even more explicitly touted as the full time starter, and twice he was not actually used full time (06 and 04) in order to get Lamb and Huff at bats, two players who are worth twenty runs less per 150 games then Ensberg just on defense. His supposed decline due to injury last year is no excuse: the man had a .396 OBP.

Papura can say whatever he wants. The fact is is that the Astros don't understand how good Ensberg is.
   50. Astro-Bonilla Posted: December 17, 2006 at 11:37 PM (#2263938)
I wish we could edit...anyway, Ensberg does not need to bounce back in order to be a considerably above average 3bHe had a .463 slugging percentage last year as well. Just the language used "he will most likely bounce back" shows that the Astros have no clue; an absurd overestimation of the importance and usefulness of batting average as a stat is the only way to come ot the conclusion that Ensberg needs to bounce back.
   51. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: December 18, 2006 at 12:09 AM (#2263950)
pence has not played center before. a few guys i talked to in corpus who go to hooks games said that pence is not a good fielder. so we will have to see how he does in round rock.

Pence did play some center last year, though mostly right, and did pretty well.
   52. base ball chick Posted: December 18, 2006 at 01:13 AM (#2263981)
kevin
the rockies definitely have a point. willy is VERY good chasing down deep fly balls. VERY good

astro-bonilla
i agree with you 100% about mo ensberg. i personally have thought for a LONG time that the astros organization are stupid about mo. i wrote this at least a few times in my column. i think it got something to do with the hold up back in 2000 - they got rid of all the other guys who were there within a year. best i can tell they ALWAYS been looking for an excuse to bench him, platoon him. i am not surprised he tried to keep injuries to his own self and play hurt anyhow.

best i can tell most fans are mad at him because he won't swing at pitches out of the strike zone. and hasn't nobody ever explained to me why that is a good thing to do because almost no pitches out of the strike zone are actually hit let alone go for hits
   53. stubbyc Posted: December 18, 2006 at 02:20 AM (#2264016)
Sigh. Ensberg has been in the big leagues for four years. In half of those years, he was even more explicitly touted as the full time starter, and twice he was not actually used full time (06 and 04) in order to get Lamb and Huff at bats

In '04 he lost his playing time because he was awful for most of the year. He didn't hit a homer the entire first half and he covered up an injury the entire year. His defense was awful in '04 too. He hit .275/.330/.411 which was worse than what Lamb hit and still received the full time job going into the playoffs and the full time job in '05. In '06 he was replaced first because he went on the DL. He still played against LHP. Huff was quite simply a better option against RHP last year at 3b.

two players who are worth twenty runs less per 150 games then Ensberg just on defense.

Huff sure as hell wasn't.

The fact is is that the Astros don't understand how good Ensberg is.

The fact is you have made up what the Astros stance is on Ensberg and run with it.

He had a .463 slugging percentage last year as well.

He had a .335 slugging percentage after May. If he continues that into next year do you think pitchers are going to start challenging him more often?

shows that the Astros have no clue

Again. Absurd arrogance. How many straight winning seasons does it take to realize they might have a ####### clue what they're doing?

an absurd overestimation of the importance and usefulness of batting average as a stat is the only way to come ot the conclusion that Ensberg needs to bounce back.

Which is why Ensberg has the job going into the next year over a guy who out hit him by 70+ points last year?
   54. stubbyc Posted: December 18, 2006 at 02:44 AM (#2264030)
best i can tell most fans are mad at him because he won't swing at pitches out of the strike zone.

The fans are ridiculous, but they are not mad because he doesn't swing at pitches out of the strike zone. There could have been runners on 2nd and 3rd last year and Ensberg would take a fastball right down the middle on a 3-1 count without flinching. There were times last year when I thought he was just taking because he knew his batspeed wasn't there.

The talk shows are the worst. They think Ensberg is Purpura/Garner's love child and "can't believe" he hasn't been released yet.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
A triple short of the cycle
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.6919 seconds
47 querie(s) executed