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Too bad the O's didn't wait a bit longer. The Braves could have sent you Julio Franco.
He MIGHT be a boon to the Orioles. Tim Raines Jr. is not very far from being the Orioles' best outfielder RIGHT NOW.
Who on earth would you get to tutor a young speedy outfielder that would be a better choice than Tim Raines Sr - the greatest percentage basestealer ever.
Unfortunately for you Orioles fans, Sr. is only yours for a couple of days. He is a free-agent at the end of the season, and has expressed publicly that he wants to play again next year in Montr?al and for the Expos. Nyah! Nyah!
Play ball!
At $3 million a season, this is not a terrible move. The Orioles desperately need some offensive production from their outfield, and I do not think it would be right to make ticketholders watch Larry Bigbie play for six months. Bigbie might be a decent prospect, but he was brought up to the majors way before his time had come, and he needs another year of seasoning in AAA, in my opinion.
As for Cordova, I don't think anyone really knows what his "true level" is going to be...but judging by the overall arc of his stats, his true level is definitely NOT 2000. Not when you consider the better seasons he put up in 2001, 1999, 1996, 1995, and maybe some other seasons as well.
Anyway, at this point I think that just about every decision Angelos and Thrift make is going to be roundly ridiculed, because everyone has already determined that both of them are idiots. The only point I would make is that for a team like the Orioles, with their fan base, revenue stream, and gem of a stadium, $3 million is a drop in the bucket. I can't see that Cordova's presence is going to block the path of any legitimate prospect who is major-league ready in 2002, so I guess I just don't see much wrong with this move. It's not a great move, it's not a bad move. It's just a move. Marty Cordova is going to wear a Baltimore uniform next year. End of story.
The Orioles do desperately need offensive production from their OF; it's just that Cordova isn't it. An .800 career OPS, from a LF/DH. Hey, don't the Orioles have 7 or 8 of those guys? Might as well have kept Brady.
As for his price, this is a guy who had to take a minor league deal this past winter; the Orioles handed him a 3 year contract at age 32. Does the money matter? Is $3M trivial? Well, ask me that again when we're in the middle of yet another work stoppage.
BTW, the Orioles think Kenny Lofton will be their CF next year.
You have to stop operating under the assumption that all moves are meaningless unless they lead to a playoff berth. That assumption is false. Some moves you make because it is better to lose 95 games than to lose 102 games.
Again, the only reason to condemn the Cordova signing would be to label it a "stop gap measure"--but stop gap measures are only bad in that they prevent prospects from developing. I don't see ANY legitimate major league prospect who should be playing right field in the major leagues in 2002, currently in the Orioles system. Anyone who says Larry Bigbie obviously did not spend much time watching the Orioles this season, because Larry Bigbie was helpless, and he needs a year in AAA.
Is a Cordova signing going to mean fans have to pay more for tickets next year? Doubt it. So what's the big deal? If he A. doesn't hurt the team, B. doesn't prevent a major league ready prospect from playing and C. doesn't command a huge contract, I can't see any reason to care one way or the other about this deal. All the negative comments on this forum strike me as gratuitious, picking on a franchise for past mistakes. The Orioles are in no position to compete for a championship anytime soon, with or without Cordova.
As a fan, I want to see a team which is either (a) a contender, or (b) trying to become a contender. If (b), I want some evidence that the team knows how to accomplish that goal. Marty Cordova fulfills none of this.
If the Orioles were going to use a veteran instead of either playing a young guy or taking a shot on Roberto Petagine, then they might as well have kept Brady Anderson. At least he's a fan favorite and we have someone to root for. Who in hell wants to see Marty Cordova other than Mrs. Cordova?
Poor Marty Cordova. The guy could hit 35 home runs, bat .315, and play solid defense all season for Baltimore and you'd still thumb your nose at him, right? He could do it while getting paid approximately 1/10th of what the league's top players make, and do it in front of thousands of fans who pay tickets to watch baseball, most of whom want to see the home team win. He could help the home team win, but because he doesn't fit into a long-term plan that brings a pennant to Baltimore he might as well bat .210 with 4 home runs and strike out 236 times while making 437 errors in the field. Who cares, right?
I am now mounting a furious campaign to have all Maryland laws regarding public exposure in baseball stadiums revoked, in the event that Cordova meets the .315/35/solid defense (by range factor) criteria. Are you going to run through Camden Yards naked in the winter?
Oh no, I'm not going to be there. But I've found some guys from the nearby state prison who are interesting in going.
Does anyone know if the kids (Rowand, Simmons or Borchard) are ready to step up this season? Are any of them particularly good? Is there a backup plan in case things go badly?
On the way to work I heard a live interview with Ken Williams. When asked if the Sox were set in the outfield, he professionally avoided answering the question directly; now I know why. He was also asked about Joe Borchard and he directly stated that he would like him to have one more full season in the minors because he thinks one professional season may not be enough for him. Regardless of whether you think this is sensible or not, Borchard will not be on the opening day roster unless he makes heads spin in spring training.
What this means is that Rowand and Simmons are the CF's, which means they are 1 outfielder shy. In my opinion, Simmons is the 5th outfielder, which means the 3rd/4th outfielders are Rowand and Valentin. With Valentin taking on the Tony Phillips role, Crede will get at least 200 at bats with the White Sox this year if he's not traded. When asked about Joe Crede this morning, Williams said he would have liked to see Joe get 200 AB's in winter ball, but Joe didn't want to go. That probably means he won't be on the opening day roster unless he beats out Jeff Liefer.
But another utility infielder was all they could get for him? I thought that was why they re-signed Graffinino.....at least the Orioles weren't astute enough to ask Williams to throw in a pitching prospect.
Does that mean you approved of swapping K. Wells and Parque for Ritchie?
I am a pretty rare bird -- a supporter of both the Indians and the White Sox. This offseason has been horrendous for the Indians, and I really am starting to think that the Mark Shapiro era in Cleveland will bring a return to the dark ages. But when I look at what Kenny Williams is doing to the Sox, it looks to me like a race to the bottom. This deal, obviously, bucks that trend from the Sox's side, but it's the first intelligent thing WIlliams has done, IMO, and I'll bet the whole thing was Thrift's idea.
Good news: Chris Singleton leaves Chicago leaving playing time open for Aaron Rowand.
Bad News: Chris Singleton gets to Baltimore most likely somehow taking playing time from Jay Gibbons.
As a White Sox fan, it's always surprising to see Kenny Williams make a decent move.
Here's my park neutral projections for the two:
Singleton: .272/.316/.421
It is by and large a pointless move by the O's, but I do think it improves their outfield defense a great deal, as playing Richard and Mora in center last year was a nightmare.
I don't think age is much of a factor. Singleton has still got a lot of baseball left in him. 29 is nothing.
And Voros, I can't see how Singleton will take time away from Gibbons. Singleton will play in center field, Mora will go back to a utility role. You've still got Cordova and Gibbons to take the corner OF spots. Richard is not supposed to be ready until the All-Star break, by which time the club could reassess and deal Conine or Segui to a contender to make room for Richard and Gibbons to both play every day, should they prove deserving.
I also don't expect we'll be hearing much from Harris in the future, though you never know.
Singleton may take time from Gibbons because he adds another outfielder to the team. That can't help. And what contender would want Conine or Segui?
As for "depth" in center, I suppose that's true -- in the metaphorical sense in which a black hole is deep. Reed, Singleton, Harris, Matos -- they all have one thing in common: they can't hit. Add Bigbie, also. Raines maybe, but that's all potential.
And Mora's ZR in center was higher than Singleton's last year, FWIW.
Bottom line: the Orioles converted a nonprospect into a nonplayer.
I agree with Voros; Rowand will be fine defensively in center, and Simmons can be a defensive replacement for Lee, who is a DH in left field (Canseco may be a better defensive outfielder than Lee).
The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. Singleton had as much trade value as he was ever going to have, and since they've been talking about trading Singleton all winter, presumably they'd shopped him all over and this was the best they were going to get. Harris will probably go to AAA, and is young enough where he might make the majors. Always good to have someone else to push Hummel along in the Durham-replacement race.
The Sox are too close to the top of their division to put too many questionable starters in their rotation. Wells may wind up being a better pitcher than Ritchie when all is said and done, but they need to live for today, too. And right now, Ritchie is a better pitcher than either Wells or Lowe.
I'm in complete agreement. Add to that the fact that he is reputed to be an excellent defensive 1B, and it is clear that he is one of the Orioles' best players at the moment.
By rights he should be with a playoff contender.
"Harris was named the Orioles' minor-league Player of the Year after batting .305 with 54 stolen bases at Double-A Bowie, but pro- jects more as a utility player because of his ability to move from second base to center field."
So, let me get this straight. Because he has the ability to play more than position, that makes him only a utility player?
Just thinking about the Orioles "brain trust" is enough to send me reaching for the advil...
That's true, and a far more realistic possibility given who's running the Os. My suggestion was based on a logical, non-thriftian approach, but is obviously unlikely to happen in the real world.
The question then becomes: Was Singleton the best available option, and if not, which CF should they have gone after instead?
His real first name? Wedsel. So think of that $6.25 million as cosmic compensation for psychological damage inflicted by his parents.
Greg Franklin will now have a place as one my sig files with that comment as I almost choked to death on the fettucine alfredo I was eating for dinner.
In contrast, Thrift and Angelos seem to have a (relative to the rest of the league) large budget and no idea of how to spend it.
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You are correct. Connie Mack built two minor dynasties. The first in the early teens, built around the $100,000 infield and an excellent group of pitchers. The $100,000 infield included the brother of a great uncle of mine. He sold that team off because a) they became too expensive, or b) he believed they took a dive in their World Series loss to the 1914 Miracle Braves.
The in the late twenties and early thirties he built another great team around Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, and Lefty Grove. He had to sell that one off because he couldn't afford to pay them.
After that, he just couldn't afford to pay even a middle of the pack team.
Angelos seems like Turner in the mid '80s: a team with one stud throwing money around like mad to no good end. Angelos' stud hasn't been a stud for a few years now and is retired.
So basically it was either Logan's Run or yet another Neil Young thread - "I seen the Wedsel and the damage done...."
There's some discussion of this in response to Don's latest article on his Weblog at the BBB Web site.
Mack had a decent amount of relatively young talent waiting to step into the wings in 1914. He had five decent young pitchers ready to replace Plank/Bender/Coombs, and three full-time position players under the age of 25. Unfortunately, what happened was that the two players for whom he didn't have replacements handy - Eddie Collins and Home Run Baker - were also the two highest-paid players, and both wanted more moola. Collins, the 1914 MVP, was traded to the White Sox, and Baker held out all season. That gutted the heart of the team, but even so, they still had six of their eight position players back from a year earlier plus a young starting rotation. But the new A's stumbled out of the gate, going 13-26 in April and May as attendance fell off without the two marquee attractions. It was then that Mack, needing money, started to sell off the rest of the team. Mack had always been successful using his private network of college coaches to scout talent, and figured he could do so again - but by 1915, most of the quality talent was coming through the minor league draft, and because Mack didn't actively participate in that process until the 1920s the A's were severly handicapped in their ability to rebuild the team.
-- MWE
He is going to get a lot of money for playing baseball for the next two years.
Whatever this deal is for the Orioles, it's an excellent deal for Buddy Groom.
I guess this explains his facination with the elderly. I have this weird idea that Syd has a copy of Coccoon on all the time in his office and home, just looping away, playing forever...
Seriously, if it were for less that $3m per this wouldn't be a bad deal. Wedsel hasn't been bad in a while, he shows up and takes the ball 70 times a year, and stable average performance has value when you are trying to sort through the crap and find some new arms.
Now when the time comes to find playing time for some of these new pitchers that the Os need to produce there might be some difficulty in getting rid of a 37 YO lefty, but that's why the $3m is a problem.
What's scary is that Groom is now making as much as J. Nelson. whatever...
Thanks for the history lesson. I didn't realize that Mack was, or at least thought he was, in such a strong position in 1915.
SS Jack Barry was also gone in 1915.
Syd,
Well both Cal Ripken's and Dale Murphy's skills were certainly retarded. Cal retired, Murph was cast out and retired a few years later. I'll refrain from attempts to be clever and cryptic after midnight.
Jack Barry started the season with the A's in 1915; he left in the June purge, along with Pennock and Shawkey.
-- MWE
If Syd Thrift knocked on your front door at 3 a.m., his face bleeding and his clothes smelly and dissheveled, and he asked you for a sandwich and a glass of milk, would you give it to him?
"I'm with you, man. Someone give me the name of another reliever (l or r) that is as durable and reliable as Buddy Groom. I don't want to hear about Mariano Rivera cause he doesn't pitch in 70 plus games a year. It's a good move and 3 mil a year isn't much at all for a guy like that."
One question: Will Harold Baines be a part of the Orioles "youth movement"?
At least with being in south AZ, I won't be forced to watch the O's season play out in technicolor. That might send me into spiraling despondency leading to a stress crash or even an early death. All could be redeemed if the New York American League Baseball Club's reconstruction turns to folly. Early indications have me hoping so but fearing not... Bummer!
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........! [gargle, gargle, gag]
The question I have is this: How long will it take for someone to start referring to the Orioles as a small-market team that can't compete? The organization seems to have pretty much given up on signing big-ticket free agents, has dropped from the top third in team payroll, and nowadays seems to be focussing on wasting money on the low-end. I predict the phrase will be applied in the media to the Orioles at some point in the year 2003.
Maybe Syd is jealous that Detroit has cornered the market on multi-position guys and wants to corner the market on no-hit fleet-footed center fielders.
Or maybe he thought he was signing Sarge, Sr for some clubhouse presence.
The Werth deal was horrendous, but this is now a separate issue.
Of course the move doesn't matter at all, it just doesn't make any sense either.
"Bale came to the Orioles during the 2000 winter meetings for catcher Jayson Werth, a former No. 1 draft pick who's now rated among the Toronto Blue Jays' top prospects. Bale was recalled twice by the Orioles last season, going 1-0 with a 3.04 ERA in 14 games. He allowed three earned runs and eight hits in six innings this spring and frustrated club officials with his inability to stay healthy.
Bale complained again of stiffness in his left elbow, though a magnetic resonance imaging test and arthrogram didn't reveal any problems. He had surgery during the winter to remove a band of tissue."
So this trade doesn't make sense because they dealt one guy that they have 15 carbon copies of for another guy they have 4 carbon copies of?
I remain unconvinced that he's of any use to Baltimore, but it's not like he's completely worthless, either.
He wasn't even in the "good second tier prospect" class (Clayton Andrews was, for example).
If Werth was one of the top 100 prospects in baseball at the time of the trade, Bale wasn't in the top 250.
The Orioles turned one of their top prospects (Jayson Werth) into one of the Blue Jays' top prospects (Jayson Werth).
Not, the Orioles turned one of their top prospects (Jayson Werth) into one of the Blue Jays' top prospects (John Bale).
Mr. Dan sometimes is in sore need of an editor.
And instead of waiting for something else to come tripping down the waiver wire (I dunno, maybe someone like McKay Christensen?), they decided to cut loose a lefty reliever who sould have given them another year or two of bullpen time as the second lefty (or even third).
The only explanation is that the O's see something in Matthews that everyone else has missed. This "baseball guy" obsession with wanting to be a miracle worker, to be smarter than the next guy, is just killing teams like Baltimore.
Bale K/BB=2.03, HR/9IP=0.92, ERA=4.18
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