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Transaction Oracle
— A Timely Look at Transactions as They Happen

Friday, April 02, 2004

Detroit Tigers

Released P Esteban Yan; traded OF Cody Ross to the Los Angeles Dodgers for P Steve Colyer and a PTBNL.

Wow, what an awful, pointless trade.  Ross has little star potential, but the Tigers are simply starved of offensive talent in the majors and upper minors.  And to trade their last shred of depth for an old LOOGY prospect?  As others have already chimed, the PTBNL better be fabulous.  Losing Ross isn’t a blow to the organization, but pointlessly losing him for something they don’t need is awful; LOOGYs don’t come in handy if you can’t get a lead to begin with.

Dan Szymborski Posted: April 02, 2004 at 03:34 AM | 12 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Cris E Posted: January 21, 2003 at 09:27 PM (#563816)
According to the Prospect Report dailies from Mex or PR (or where ever he was playing) Munson played 3b for about 2/3 of the season before moving back to 1b (no reason given).
   102. Cris E Posted: January 21, 2003 at 09:33 PM (#563817)
Ah, found it: 12/11/02

DET E.Munson DH 4 1 2 1 .290 - hasn't played 3B for awhile
   103. MM1f Posted: April 20, 2003 at 12:31 AM (#557261)
You know Tampa should just platoon Lombard and Josh Hamilton in right. I mean, heck, you figure at least ONE of them has to be healthy for a little while sometime.
   104. MM1f Posted: April 20, 2003 at 12:32 AM (#557262)
You know Tampa should just platoon Lombard and Josh Hamilton in right. I mean, heck, you figure at least ONE of them has to be healthy for a little while sometime.
   105. Old Matt Posted: April 30, 2003 at 07:22 PM (#565838)
Why do I have a suspicion that Paquette will be a Red soon?
   106. MM1f Posted: May 01, 2003 at 03:19 AM (#565840)
I think it was so Trammel couldn't pinch-hit him for Pena with the tying run on base again.
   107. Buddha Posted: May 01, 2003 at 03:38 PM (#565841)
Yeah, because Carlos Pena's .170 BA with 1 HR and 3 RBI's a great improvement over Paquette.

Not that I think they shouldn't waive Paquette, they should. In fact, they never should have signed him to the platoon brigade a couple years ago. But watch, he'll go the national league and hit .300. Guaranteed.
   108. MM1f Posted: May 01, 2003 at 04:55 PM (#565842)
"Yeah, because Carlos Pena's .170 BA with 1 HR and 3 RBI's a great improvement over Paquette."

Sad thing is, Pena is best Tiger (or at least the one with the most upside for you members of the Bobby Higginson fan club)
   109. Dan Szymborski Posted: May 01, 2003 at 07:39 PM (#565844)
The Tigers *do* have some a few guys they picked up in minor league free agency that can contribute, but most of them play positions that a young guy should have covered one day. I like Tom Evans and think he can contribute when he's actually healthy, but even given little as I think of Munson's professional career, he really should be at third.

The Tigers are so far in the hole right now that even if they wanted to play a bunch of veterans and have a typical Orioles finish of 70-75 wins that reflected absolutely no long-term planning, they couldn't do it at this point.
   110. MM1f Posted: May 03, 2003 at 05:14 PM (#565845)
Anyone have any info on Torres?
   111. Buddha Posted: May 05, 2003 at 05:12 PM (#565846)
Torres is a real prospect. He has always had speed but had trouble getting on base. He was the last man cut in the spring so they could try Kingsale in center. When Sir Eugene went to Aruba and Paquette was released, they recalled Torres. He was hitting around .340 in Triple A and leading the league in steals. He's shown real improvement over last year and is speedy enough to get around in the massive centerfield in Comerica.

Here's hoping he pans out.
   112. NTNgod Posted: May 12, 2003 at 03:11 AM (#565848)
Who had May 11 in the St. Louis signing Paquette pool (AAA deal)?
   113. Mike Posted: May 29, 2003 at 12:50 AM (#565984)
Ugh.
   114. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 29, 2003 at 02:45 AM (#565985)
I noted this in the Clutch Hit on the subject, but Alex Sanchez is pretty much a dead ringer for Roger Cedeno. The deal looks like a big win for the Brewers to me.
   115. Jason Posted: May 29, 2003 at 01:55 PM (#565987)
I'd hesitate to call the Brewers big winners, unless Petty turns into a pretty good pitcher or Varner surprises some people. And while the Tigers gave up stuff they did improve their team atleast somewhat based on what Alex has produced at the major league level. So I'd just call the Brewers winners and leave it at that.
   116. Buddha Posted: May 29, 2003 at 04:38 PM (#565989)
Chad Petty doesn't look like more than a fourth or fifth starter. He doesn't strike out a lot of guys and hasn't put up great numbers so far in A ball.

Noochie put up some decent numbers in Double A this year, but I don't know what his age is compared to the others in the league. He isn't putting up better numbers than someone like Cody Ross did last year or Eric Munson the year before. Knowing Dombrowski, he's probably a good athlete and not a great baseball player. He looks like an Alex Sanchez type player...only two years away from the big leagues whereas Sanchez can play right now.

We shall see if these guys ever pan out. It's obvious they weren't too high on the Tigers' list.

I wouldn't necessarily call this a "win" for the Brewers.
   117. Buddha Posted: May 29, 2003 at 04:40 PM (#565990)
And I think Sanchez will put up better numbers than either Kingsale or Torres. He has done it in the majors whereas the other two have not.
   118. Walt Davis Posted: May 29, 2003 at 05:58 PM (#565991)
Franchises like the Tigers can't afford to be trading away guys with names like Noochie. If he ever made it, imagine the crowd on Noochie bobblehead night.

But semi-seriously, I think folks are overstating Sanchez's ML accomplishments (which they're acknowledging are minor). Sanchez's ML track record is essentially 400 PA when he put up a 701 OPS; Kingsale's ML track record is essentially 240 PA in which he put up an OPS of 734. This year they both stink, though Sanchez less so.
   119. strummer Posted: May 29, 2003 at 06:06 PM (#565992)
Franchises like the Tigers can't afford to be trading away guys with names like Noochie. If he ever made it, imagine the crowd on Noochie bobblehead night.

Well, the Tigers still have Nook Logan. I know, it's no Noochie. But time will tell for the Tigers whether Sanchez and the replacement-level "k" will be enough to offset the loss of the "chie".
   120. MM1f Posted: May 29, 2003 at 08:49 PM (#565993)
But you could change "Nook" to "Nuke"
   121. Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute Posted: June 13, 2003 at 04:33 AM (#566104)
...or somewhere I can read about his whole story. I seem to recall him being in the Mariners' system back in the day, but I might be thinking of Dave Hengel.
   122. Jimbo Jones Posted: June 13, 2003 at 05:38 AM (#566105)
I'm pretty sure he got his start in the M's system. He appeared on the M's ML roster in 91 and 92 prior to a five year absense from the majors.

I know that ML players pensions vest the first day they spend on a 25 man roster (right?). I wonder how much a player like Lennon (6 seasons, 200+ PAs) will draw per month. For that matter, how much would a pension be for a guy who spend one day on a roster?

Sorry for the hijack.
   123. jwb Posted: June 13, 2003 at 07:02 PM (#566110)
More on Lennon here
   124. True Blue n/k/a "DeJesusFreak" Posted: June 16, 2003 at 04:48 PM (#566112)
<I>"For those not aware, Lennon got into some serious trouble thanks to a trumped-up gun charge."

--I know virtually nothing about Pat Lennon, so I'm trying not to have any preconceived notions, but what is the basis for the assertion that it was "trumped-up"? According to the artilce jwb pointed to, Lennon "landed in jail for two months back in 1989 while with a Double A team, after firing a handgun into the air during an altercation between a teammate and a local resident," and "was charged with reckless endangerment and illegal possession of a firearm."

Again, I know nothing about the incident or of Lennon, but this doesn't sound trumped-up to me. Can someone enlighten me?
   125. The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: June 18, 2003 at 07:00 PM (#566114)
True Blue, click the homepage link. Lennon fired a "warning shot" into the air in an attempt to break up a fight. An offense worthy of a citation and an overnight jail stay, perhaps, but not an attempted murder charge or two months in jail.
   126. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 24, 2003 at 11:17 PM (#566172)
Ron Wright's a hard working guy, and I'd like to see him make it back to the show, even if it was his back problems that shackled my team to Kevin Young.
   127. Dudefella Posted: June 25, 2003 at 04:23 PM (#566173)
Future considerations? Er, coming from the Tigers that's, like, a hot dog, right?
   128. Greg Franklin Posted: June 25, 2003 at 07:47 PM (#566174)
A hamburger, if it's a Tuesday. Dmitri needs his hot dogs.

FWIW, the same day the Indians signed Wright, they picked up OF Brant Brown, P Rafael Betancourt, and P Paul Rigdon. Betancourt is ripping it up on Akron as a minor-league reliever, but the other two guys? eh. Trade 'em to the Tigers if they're still around.

Good memory by the Oracle of Wright's 5-out performance in his first 2 ABs. That all came in one game, his first and only ML game ever. Has he ever put up a great minor-league stretch since his back problems? He did get a long look in Mariners spring training that year (2002), where it was determined he belonged in AAA.
   129. Colin Posted: June 26, 2003 at 09:21 PM (#566175)
I hated to see that Wright outed for the cycle in his only ML game. I hope he gets a chance to get back to the majors for a better memory of a career than that.
   130. Mike Posted: June 30, 2003 at 03:05 AM (#566115)
I work in the clubhouse for the LI Ducks, the indy team Lennon played for this year, and so I know him personally. From everything I know of him, it is very difficult to picture him "attempting murder." Also, I believe he played for a time with the Blue Jays, and on a side note - all those years in the minors have paid off, as I learned more about hitting in 1 night listening to him and Doug Jennings, than i have any place else.
   131. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 30, 2003 at 04:43 AM (#566232)
What's with the insane roster shuffling on bad teams this year? Between the Tigers and the Devil Rays, you'd think somebody was getting paid by the transaction.
   132. Buddha Posted: June 30, 2003 at 02:18 PM (#566233)
The Tigers are "sending a message that this type of play will no longer be tolerated." Whatever the hell that means.

They are now tied for the worst 80 game start ever.
   133. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 15, 2003 at 03:04 PM (#566583)
Benero's going to have problems in Colorado. He's given up more homers than average in Cavernous Comerica, and the thin air up there could have horrific results.
   134. Victor Posted: July 15, 2003 at 04:23 PM (#566585)
A good organization cuts its losses and gets value for its mistakes. A bad organization changes its opinion quickly without much evidence. The pragmatic results of these two theories may be the same, it is only time that will determine if this was a cut your loss decision or an impulsive one.

That said - Go Ben Patrick!
   135. H. Vaughn Posted: July 15, 2003 at 05:53 PM (#566588)
Seems a lot of highly touted catchers of the last three years or so have underwhelmed. I can only think of Ben Davis from amongst a top-of-my-head crop of Estelella, Petrick, Estrada, Meluskey, Lomasney, Mike Rivera, and Josh Bard. Is there a higher burn rate in catchers and what causes it?
   136. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 31, 2003 at 02:00 PM (#565998)
<I>Posted 11:07 a.m., May 30, 2003 (#13) - Paul O.
   137. BrandonMO (U L) Posted: December 06, 2003 at 04:22 AM (#569322)
I think my Baseball Mogul 2004 was inaccurate when it had Palmer break out for a huge year in 2003 with the Rockies.

Same goes for Mogul 2004 having years where Chris Woodward hit 50 HRs, where Greg Norton hit alot of home runs, where Jeff Francoeur hit 75 home runs (to tie the record)

Mogul also had Bellhorn hitting 80 home runs in one year.

What are some of the weirder sim projections you've seen?
   138. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 06, 2003 at 04:35 AM (#569323)
Dave, it could be, but would they bother to include incentive clauses for a token appear n' retire contract?
   139. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 06, 2003 at 11:10 AM (#569327)
Mark Thurmond... ah, memories! Can we bring Eric King and Nate Snell, too?
   140. MM1f Posted: December 07, 2003 at 05:43 PM (#569331)
Anyone ever hear the clip of the Expos French announcer making the call when Larry Walker threw someone out at first? (way back when of course)

Great stuff...
   141. Darren Posted: December 10, 2003 at 07:18 PM (#569712)
Those lines for 2004 are eerily similar. Well, it's only $3 mil./yr and it might get them up to 44 wins.
   142. Mike Posted: December 10, 2003 at 07:21 PM (#569714)
Ugh.

This is only good if Dombrowski can pawn him off in July to a contending team in search of a "proven veteran". Unlikely.
   143. Walt Davis Posted: December 10, 2003 at 07:48 PM (#569718)
Alas, two years of me at $600,000 isn't much worse than two years of Halter at $5 M. Heck, platoon me with Steve Treder (a more proven veteran) and you might come out ahead.
   144. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: December 10, 2003 at 08:21 PM (#569720)
I'm not a Tiger's fan or anything, but I was hoping they would sign Pokey Reese, who really is a good defensive second baseman and would have come cheaper than Vina, I suspect. Really couldn't hurt the development of the pitchers to have some defense behind them.
   145. bob mong Posted: December 10, 2003 at 09:20 PM (#569724)
Morris has 10 less hits than Vina, the same amount of walks, and 40 less ABs, yet he has a lower OB%?

I think there is some kind of math error here.


Actually, I can believe it. I checked the math, and assuming Vina hits around 2 SF then he would have to get plunked about 18 times to have a .327 OBP. And, what do you know, he has topped that many HBPs in 4 of his 5 full seasons. Morris doesn't get plunked nearly as often (7 times in a 1500-AB career).

Kind of weird, though.
   146. bob mong Posted: December 10, 2003 at 09:21 PM (#569725)
Aw, beat me to it, Fuzzy :)
   147. Mike Posted: December 10, 2003 at 11:02 PM (#569726)
You can't trade a guy on the DL
   148. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 10, 2003 at 11:35 PM (#569728)
Yup, it's the HBP. I can't stretch the stat lines any farther without either going down to size=1 so nobody can read it or make the columns all goofy.
   149. Mike Posted: December 15, 2003 at 09:50 AM (#570072)
A single season? They'll be lucky to do it in two.
   150. Edmundo Posted: December 15, 2003 at 12:43 PM (#570073)
Whew, that was harsh.

But funny.
   151. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 15, 2003 at 01:43 PM (#570074)
It's a trap!
   152. MNB Posted: December 16, 2003 at 12:04 AM (#570080)
I keep waiting for Detroit to announce that they've signed Fernando Tatis.
   153. MM1f Posted: December 16, 2003 at 02:43 AM (#570081)
Nice letter Dan...
   154. RickG Posted: December 18, 2003 at 06:44 PM (#570470)
Still, the dropping of Levine was a bit shocking...he went to school at my Alma Mater, Southern Illinois...St. Louis is just a couple hours away, so you'd think he'd have tried harder to stay close to home. Who knows.
   155. fables of the deconstruction Posted: December 30, 2003 at 08:57 PM (#570898)
I already stated my thoughts on this deal here.

I'll repeat:
   156. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: December 30, 2003 at 09:08 PM (#570901)
Not so fast, Mr. Estes. You'd be in that lower tier, right near the bottom. I pity the team that buys into your veteran presence, proven winner, and last start of the season (CG shutout) and signs you up for a full season of Estesmania.

It got to the point where I wouldn't even watch the beginnings of the games you were starting. I'd just expect to be able to turn it on in the 5th, find the Cubs down 6-2, and see someone from the bullpen in trying to clean up your mess.
   157. fables of the deconstruction Posted: December 30, 2003 at 09:57 PM (#570903)
Orioles counter by signing Mike DeJean.

Yah Hoo! We're rollin' now... NOT!

------------
   158. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: December 30, 2003 at 10:40 PM (#570904)
I've watched Jason Johnson alot over the last few years.

He's like a lot of mediocre players, pitchers in particular; when he's going well - feeling 100% healthy, the mechanics are working, he's getting some calls on the corners - he's damn tough. His fastball tails just enough, his command is just good enough, and his offspeed arsenal is just varied enough to get guys out.

The problem is that he gets derailed easily and has trouble getting himself into another good groove, producing lapses of 4 or 5 awful starts. Nobody cares I'm sure, but after watching him pitch as many games as I have I can at least throw a few words onto primer about him, right?

AMF Jason, good luck in motown.
   159. Eugene Freedman Posted: December 30, 2003 at 11:14 PM (#570906)
I'd much rather have Lightenberg than DeJean. So much for making progress all around. Unless he's for 2 years at Lightenberg's team option, it's a big mistake.
   160. Snowboy Posted: December 30, 2003 at 11:37 PM (#570907)
Why not $3M, with $4M option in 2005? Who exactly are you competing against for 2 years? Have you learned nothing from the dumb contracts to Danny Patterson, Bobby Higginson, Damion Easley, etc?
   161. Steve Posted: December 30, 2003 at 11:47 PM (#570908)
I hate to disagree, but, I think that this is a fair pickup. Johnson's has a problem with the home run ball and the stadium in Detroit should help. He's not an ace but is a competent starter. You could do worse.
   162. Buddha Posted: December 31, 2003 at 12:32 AM (#570910)
Johnson is an average starter and he will probably be helped by Comaerica National Park. And, let's be honest, not many of people want to go play in Detroit. In fact, not many players at all want to play in Detroit even when Detroit has made it fairly obvious they will overpay for anybody for two years.

And why two years? because it will be at least two years before any of their prospects are ready for the majors. White, Vina, Johnson are all stop gap players before any of Detroit's future players can take the field.

While this isn't a great signing, it's an improvement over what they had. It allows them to give guys like Ledezma and Roney a year in the minors to work on their stuff and other guys like Sleeth, Baugh, Zumaya and Connelly a couple seasons of work before they come up.

As far as overpaying, that's relative. By "overpaying" Johnson, who are they preventing themselves from having the budget to sign? Guerrero? Rodriguez? Tejada? Maddox? None of those players would come to Detroit without a 20 mil a year contract. And even then they might not come. Guerrero and Maddox told the Tigers to not even bother calling. Aurilia has shown little interest. Tejada told them to start the bidding at 7 years 102 mil. The Tigers WILL spend the money, but no one will take it right now.

Unfortunately, Johnson is the best they can do at the moment. They will just have to ride out a couple more bad seasons and hope the kids develop.

Either that or hope the weather in Detroit turns tropical and the state cancels its income tax. Heck, NATIONAL LEAGUE players voted Detroit the worst city to visit...and they never play there!
   163. strummer Posted: December 31, 2003 at 01:37 AM (#570911)
<i>Why not $3M, with $4M option in 2005? Who exactly are you competing against for 2 years? Have you learned nothing from the dumb contracts to Danny Patterson, Bobby Higginson, Damion Easley, etc?
   164. Snowboy Posted: December 31, 2003 at 03:41 AM (#570914)
Okay, some people around here like Jason Johnson more than I do. Maybe I'm asking the question that no one can answer, and that's fine. But I'll ask it again: overpaying is fine, but why are you overpaying for 2 years on a guy like this? If he stinks (I think good chance, others disagree), you'll be paying him $4M in 2005. Who else was going to give him a contract that guaranteed 2005? If team gives him one year with juicy $4M option in 2005, they're still in control.
   165. Buddha Posted: December 31, 2003 at 03:56 PM (#570915)
1) because you CAN sign him. Which is always important when you're Detroit.

2) Because he's decent.

3) Because you'll probably need him next year. Who knows what the market will be like next season? Not so much in terms of $$$ but in terms of talent. I know Johnson isn't a world beater but he's an ok starter. maybe next season the Tigers get Hentgen-ed again and not even average pitchers will sign here?

4) Because he might not have signed here without a guarantee of a second year.

If you look at the deal in a vacuum, without considering the Tigers position, I agree that it looks a little silly. But remember, these are the Tigers. The same Tigers who couldn't overpay Pat Hentgen or any other pitcher. I don't think it's a bad deal for them considering the state of their farm system and the fact they have money to burn.
   166. Floyd Thursby Posted: December 31, 2003 at 07:53 PM (#570919)
If Johnson is, say, 7-7 w/3.90 ERA on July 30th, he might garner a prospect from a dumber team. I think this signing makes all kinds of sense. In the risk vs. reward sense, what's the risk? Johnson makes the Tigers a terrible team?
   167. Walt Davis Posted: January 01, 2004 at 05:57 PM (#570920)
I won't say this is a bad move, for the reasons cited above -- the Tigers are pretty limited in terms of what they can do, probably do have to overpay for FA, and, assuming they're not shortchanging their minor-league system, what else were they going to spend the money on. But....

The Johnsons, Whites and Vinas of the baseball world will not make the Tigers contenders (i.e. a .500 team in the AL Central), but they will improve this team,

Don't be so sure. If ZIPs is close to right, Johnson is little if any improvement over the Tigers 2003 starters.

Vina is done. I looked at this in another thread, and I don't usually put much stock in similarity scores, but of Vina's 10 most similar through age 34, 4 had no PA after age 34 and another 4 had fewer than 350 PA after age 34. One of the remaining two was Ski Melillo, who somehow managed another 3 seasons totalling over 900 PA despite his OPS+'s of 59, 39, and 49. The only success story is Jim Gantner, who played 5 more years with an OPS+ around 83. (Note one reason I don't put much stock in sim scores is that they don't adjust for era. But that hurts Vina here because he's in the high offense era but has numbers similar to low-offense 2Bs of the past.)

Anyway, Vina's a real possibility for a line like 250/300/320, while being injured a lot.

Rondell White is a good player when healthy and I'll grant that move improved the Tigers. Assuming Higginson really isn't this bad and that Pena shows some improvement, the Tigers offense should be a little better. Of course, Young won't hit like that again and they may be dragging Vina's carcass around all year.

If Johnson is, say, 7-7 w/3.90 ERA on July 30th, he might garner a prospect from a dumber team.

Anyone want to wager that a Tiger pitcher with at least 10 starts will have a .500 record? :-)

Seriously, this is where the 2nd guaranteed year will hurt the Tigers. Let's say Johnson is a trade target come July. Whoever gets Johnson will be responsible for about $5 M in salary. It seems rather unlikely that the Tigers would get much of a prospect in return in that situation. Now if he's pitching decently in 2005, they might be able to move him for something pretty good.
   168. Mattbert Posted: January 01, 2004 at 11:49 PM (#570921)
On behalf of the greater Boston area, I say 'good riddance.'

You know all those times when the planets aligned properly and Johnson turned in a respectable outing? Check out these lines against AL East teams over the last three seasons:

vs. BOS -- 11 GS, 66.1 IP, 3.80 ERA
   169. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 02, 2004 at 03:20 PM (#570922)
I remember Johnson as a big flyball guy, so this would've made more sense before they decided to move the fences back in.

That said, I still think he's a sensible addition for a team in a bad situation, and I like him a lot more than the Vina signing.
   170. strummer Posted: January 02, 2004 at 03:53 PM (#570923)
Don't be so sure. If ZIPs is close to right, Johnson is little if any improvement over the Tigers 2003 starters.

ZIPs not withstanding, a pitcher who put up a league average ERA over the course of the past 3 season can't help but improve Detroit. The 2003 Tigers put up a collective 5.30 ERA, with 2 of their top 5 starters over 6.00 & 2 others over 5.50.
   171. BrandonMO (U L) Posted: January 15, 2004 at 04:10 AM (#571716)
Mr. Estalella, time to be introduced to park factors.

Have the Tigers tried to stock their team with flyball pitchers? (other than Jose Lima)
   172. Buddha Posted: January 15, 2004 at 03:17 PM (#571721)
They're all decent shots for possible pinch hitters and maybe a bench slot.

You all make it seem like these guys will be starting. Relax, poindexters. Norton is a possible back up to Munson at 3d or pinch hitter. Estallela starts at Triple A and is an insurance policy if they don't get Pudge. Both will not be ahead of Chris Shelton.

The others are stictly bench players and will probably be at Triple-A.

Where is this talk of them starting coming from?

Why do some people feel they have to say something negative about everything? How are these bad moves? Who do they block? Who should they have signed?
   173. MikeinMI Posted: January 15, 2004 at 06:18 PM (#571724)
DeFelice vs Estalella? Who goes north to Detroit and who goes a little less north to Toledo?
   174. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: January 15, 2004 at 08:07 PM (#571727)
If the Tigers are smart, they'll offer Estalella back to the Phillies in exchange for Millwood.

I mean, it worked once...
   175. flournoy Posted: January 15, 2004 at 08:11 PM (#571728)
Bobby Estalella != Johnny Estrada
   176. Walt Davis Posted: January 15, 2004 at 10:10 PM (#571729)
How's Ozuna's defense? His ZIPS above is about what I expect Vina to put up.
   177. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: January 21, 2004 at 08:36 PM (#571737)
Petrick's actually a pretty good outfielder. Gets a real good jump on the ball and has a good arm. His hitting is what made him a catcher.
   178. White Sox fan Posted: February 03, 2004 at 03:13 PM (#572330)
Let's see, 30 more wins means they will be, um, 73-89 in 2004.

Sadly enough, that could keep them in contention in the horrific AL Central much of the year.
   179. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: February 03, 2004 at 05:19 PM (#572333)
Celebrate all you want, Barrett and Bako, but the truth is that $40M is better spent on the two of you and Maddux than it would be on IRod at this stage in his career.

(I reserve the right to retract this statement if the Cubs choose to sit on the money and watch Houston win the division by 1 game this season).
   180. Mike Posted: February 05, 2004 at 12:15 AM (#572347)
Posted 3:45 p.m., February 3, 2004 (#10) - Inquisitive
   181. Darren Posted: February 07, 2004 at 03:06 AM (#572348)
I also looked at team winds v. salary.

I'm guessing the Chicago teams dominated.
   182. BrandonMO (U L) Posted: February 07, 2004 at 04:06 AM (#572349)
Before you get too happy about Detroit's pitching.. they're all pretty much screwed.

Maroth's k/9 ratio is horrible

Bonderman's is below average

Cornejo's k/9 sucks

basically these guys won't last long in the majors.

Sorry Tigers fans
   183. Mike Posted: February 07, 2004 at 06:00 PM (#572351)
I'm guessing the Chicago teams dominated.
   184. Mike Posted: February 08, 2004 at 12:48 AM (#572354)
Geez Mike, take a joke.
   185. Greg Franklin Posted: March 22, 2004 at 03:17 AM (#571738)
Petrick and Ozuna optioned to minor league camp....

Estalella and his tats jumped to AZ Diamondbacks camp when Pudge came on board....

Greg Norton is the Last Tiger Standing ... for now!
   186. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: April 01, 2004 at 05:21 PM (#573221)
Jeremy,
   187. MajorTom Posted: April 01, 2004 at 09:45 PM (#573223)
I think that Urbina is a perfectly fine "closer". I think the reason he gets a lot of flak around here is that he is average, or at best a bit above average. There are about a million and a half guys out there who could do a comparable job, but can do it for a hell of a lot less than 3.5 million. Possibly Fernando Rodney, for example. And one of the things that the people here analyze is cost effectiveness, and the Tigers throwing 3.5 million dollars at a guy who at best will have 30 save opps just doesn't scream financial prudence.
   188. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 02, 2004 at 02:37 AM (#573225)
From his rate stats, I think people do Urbina a disservice when they call him average.

Part of the skepticism about him may also come from his checkered injury history, though he's been more healthy in recent times.
   189. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 02, 2004 at 04:06 AM (#573248)
If they'd wanted a young LOOGY, they could've just claimed Frank Brooks on waivers a few days ago. Odd, odd move.
   190. NTNgod Posted: April 02, 2004 at 04:11 AM (#573249)
Trading Ross for him was too much, granted, but calling Colyer an 'old LOOGY prospect' seems to be an over-reaction.

He's 25, never been a LOOGY (unless all relievers who are lefthanded are LOOGYs in the new terminology), good K/9 (but shaky control), and seems to keep the ball in the yard (1 HR in 47.2 IP at Las Vegas).
   191. NTNgod Posted: April 02, 2004 at 04:12 AM (#573250)
If they'd wanted a young LOOGY, they could've just claimed Frank Brooks on waivers a few days ago.

Frank Brooks is older than Steve Colyer.
   192. Michael Posted: April 02, 2004 at 04:54 AM (#573251)
As NTNgod pointed out, Colyer is far from an old LOOGY prospect. Among other things, in 13 appearances in the major leagues last year he threw 19.7 innings. His fastball is mid to upper 90s with good motion, and he keeps it down. He is wild, but since he has low hr rates and high k rates, he is a valuable pitcher. I expect him to be a key part of the Tiger bullpen this season, and for years to come. I wouldn't even be surprised if he became their closer once Urbina is traded in July.

That being said, unless the ptbnl is somebody good, as a Dodger fan I'm pleased. Ross' obp isn't particularly good, but his power at age 22 in the IL last season was pretty nice.
   193. pyrite Posted: April 02, 2004 at 05:32 AM (#573253)
Here's the full list of Tiger hitters who have better 5-yr PECOTA forecasts than Cody Ross:

1. Dmitri Young
   194. Old Matt Posted: April 02, 2004 at 05:55 PM (#573255)
Based on what you guys are saying about Ross and what I've heard so far, this new Paulie D for the Dodgers is working out quite nicely. I like it.
   195. Buddha Posted: April 02, 2004 at 07:27 PM (#573256)
Ross isn't that much of a prospect, really. He had a little pop in his bat, but that will likely disappear in Chavez Ravine.

However, I don't like trading him straight up for a LOOGY. Especially a LOOGY with control problems.

Oh well, at least they kept Chris Shelton on the roster instead of DiFelice.

And I've read that the PTBNL is just cash. Which, if true, makes this even worse.
   196. Michael Posted: April 02, 2004 at 10:35 PM (#573257)
In what universe is Colyer a LOOGY? He showed last year that he could get both righties and lefties out, and that he could go more than one inning.

But yeah, the PTBNL apparently will either be a minor prospect, or cash. Which pleases me as a Dodger fan.
   197. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: April 02, 2004 at 11:02 PM (#573258)
FWIW, I watched Colyer blow Bonds away with high gas in a game last September. I don't know how good he'll be, but that was impressive.
   198. NTNgod Posted: April 02, 2004 at 11:05 PM (#573259)
For the record, Colyer's splits in the 2 years since he's been converted to relief:

2003-MLB(19.2 IP)
   199. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: April 02, 2004 at 11:18 PM (#573260)
how would you rank these 3 OF prospects?

Smitherman, Ross, Jonny Gomes.

I think I'd put them in the order I have listed, but they seem too close to call at this stage.
   200. Michael Posted: April 03, 2004 at 04:35 PM (#573262)
I wouldn't be too worried about that Ross. While he hits more doubles than homeruns now, he's young enough to expect some of those doubles to become hrs as he matures. I don't know what his obp or batting average would be in the majors, but if he plays regularly 25 or more homeruns a year doesn't look that unlikely in his mid 20s.

Incidentally, afaict the reason that Dodger Stadium suppresses doubles is the lack of foul ground once you get much past first or third base. The way the walls angle in they actually funnel balls hit down the line back towards the outfielders. Doubles to the gap in other stadiums would still be doubles in DS.
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