I thought this was an ok deal for the O's. I understand Benson isn't the best of starters and that he's above 30, but at least he's got some experience. I mean, what else could you get for Julio and Maine?

That said, the O's offseason makes me think a lot about the Pirates' or the Royals' offseason. A lot of moves that won't pay much in the end. Sad.

I am glad you still call the Blue Jays smart.

That's a lot of strikeouts projected for Maine.

Don't the Mets really need an extra averagish starter?

If Maine comes close to that projection I'll donate $100 to BTF.

You might think so, greenback, especially after Seo's departure for middle relievers.

A hallmark of good teams is using younger starters as relievers -- this is great insurance against injury or declining performance. Seo's & Benson's being traded mean that Seo and Heilman can't be on hand for insurance. Was Julio a converted starter?

hahaha that Maine projection is hilarious

While I understand Dan's disappoint in the Orioles complete lack of direction, this move makes very little sense for the Mets, unless it's a precursor to another one.

So the Mets essentially traded Justin Huber for Maine and Julio. We'll see.

Maine looks like another guy who can't find home plate. Maybe Rick Peterson can fix him in twenty minutes.

The Mets have taken a very cavalier approach to their starting pitching. I don't think that there have been too many .500 teams that took major steps forward after downgrading their starting pitching. They didn't help their starting pitchers by trading Cameron either.

I agree with Dan. This trade makes sense for the Mets-less salary and I believe Heilman is ready to start. Heilman has been waitng in the wings for a few years now since his stellar collegiate career. He has done better as a reliever, but that doesn't mean he is not ready to step it up as a starter.

I just have a hard time believing the Mets front office have turned face on the question of Heilman starting so abruptly. Did his "start me or trade me" threats really lead them to ditch Seo and Benson just to create an open spot for him? That seems extreme.

I don't think that there have been too many .500 teams that took major steps forward after downgrading their starting pitching.

You said this before and it didn't make any sense then either.

2005 rotation:

Pedro
Glavine
Benson
Zambrano
Ishii/Seo/Trachsel

2006 rotation:

Pedro
Glavine
Heilman
Zambrano
Trachsel

What downgrade exactly?

What downgrade exactly?

I'm not sure the Mets are done making moves on this front, but for what it's worth, I wouldn't count on Glavine being as good as last year or Trachsel pitching enough to obviate the need for another starter to throw a significant number of innings. That was fine with Seo and Heilman in the quiver, but Heilman's probably going to start anyway, and Seo's gone. Heilman's likely to be a moderate upgrade over Benson, but at best this strikes me as a wash.

That said, there are of course Jeff Weaver and Barry Zito rumors pinging around all over the place; if one of those things happens, we'll have to rejigger our calculations completely.

You don't think Heilman is a big fat question mark?

You don't think Zambrano is worse than Trachsel? If Trax can pitch, he'll be better than Z.

Some don't think Seo's ERA was real because it was 90 IP. But they do think Heilman's was - at 108 IP. That's a little iffy, in my book.

I think Seo was a significantly better bet than Heilman, so that's a downgrade.

OTOH, I guess I agree - it isn't a downgrade yet. Not keeping Seo is the mistake - I really see a lack of upgrade - no downgrade.

I didn't say the rotation had problems, but I also thought it had problems last year. It's misleading to say that these trades downgraded the rotation. Now, maybe it's a downgrade on what the rotation should have been last year and this year -- I would have liked to have seen Seo, not Ishii, for the entire year, and perhaps Heilman over Zambrano. But you can't pretend all of those starts wasted on Ishii didn't happen.

They should have upgraded the rotation this offseason and clearly didn't, but I don't see it as appreciably worse off than the rotation that actually was last year.

Of course I meant to say "I didn't say the rotation didn't have problems." Bleh.

I think why people like Heilman better than Seo is that H struck out 106 in 108 innings last year, while Seo struck out 59 in 90 innings. Seo's K/BB was a little better, but I'd rather have the guy with more K's when both guys are hovering around 3.00 K/BB

One possibility that no one's mentioned (and I didn't think of it either, my friend Chris did) is that perhaps the Mets can put some of the money saved by getting rid of Benson into getting someone to take Kaz Matsui off their hands.

What I find exceedingly ironic is that the Mets continue to put all of their proverbial eggs in the Rick Peterson basket, although he's revealed himself to be a miserable failure. They acquire Julio with the hope that Peterson can turn him around. Of course, they are giving up Benson, a pitcher that didn't make any strides thanks to Peterson. Indeed, no Mets' pitcher has developed due to Peterson. They got rid of Seo, a guy that Peterson disslikes, but one who did well. They still have Zambrano, who has not been helped at all by Peterson as he is still wild, still inconsistent and, at best, a back of the rotation starter. Peterson helped him so much that by the end of the year, Zambrano was out of the bullpen and relegated to long relief. Suddently, Zambrano's place on the staff is gold. I don't get it. But that's not the point. The point is that Met management doesn't get it with respect to Peterson.

s.

They acquire Julio with the hope that Peterson can turn him around.

Ah, false premises. Sure you're a lawyer?

perhaps the Mets can put some of the money saved by getting rid of Benson into getting someone to take Kaz Matsui off their hands.

They already have to pay Matsui's salary so they could only save money in a Matsui trade. They're not going to pay a team to take Matsui while the Mets pay his full salary.

Mr. Base:

I am sorry that I am not some small time guy that would be better suited for cleaning toilets. I would refer you to Julio's stats from last year as it is quite clear that he needs to be "turned around". Of course, being a loser in your own field, a near 6 ERA may seem like a wonderfully acceptable thing to you.

s.

They already have to pay Matsui's salary so they could only save money in a Matsui trade. They're not going to pay a team to take Matsui while the Mets pay his full salary.

I think the point was that the Mets might be willing to take on a more significant chunk of Matsui's contract in order to make a deal now than they were previous to this trade.

-- MWE

I am sorry that I am not some small time guy that would be better suited for cleaning toilets. I would refer you to Julio's stats from last year as it is quite clear that he needs to be "turned around". Of course, being a loser in your own field, a near 6 ERA may seem like a wonderfully acceptable thing to you.

RDF.

I think the point was that the Mets might be willing to take on a more significant chunk of Matsui's contract in order to make a deal now than they were previous to this trade.

But that doesn't make any sense, which was my point.

I am sorry that I am not some small time guy that would be better suited for cleaning toilets

What do you have to say to those of us who aren't failures but can still detect the odor of blithering idiot about you?

Mr. Base:

I am sorry that I am not some small time guy that would be better suited for cleaning toilets. I would refer you to Julio's stats from last year as it is quite clear that he needs to be "turned around". Of course, being a loser in your own field, a near 6 ERA may seem like a wonderfully acceptable thing to you.

s.

Come on, Ira, I'm young. Maybe with hard work and guile, I too can someday be a real estate lawyer on Long Island. And then I can invent Rick Peterson conspiracy theories on the internet!

ZiPS likes Maine surprisingly much - no doubt due to his periphs in Ottawa during his disappointing 2005 not as bad as you would think from the ERA.

My quick dips calculator came up with a 3.77 for Maine in AAA last year (actual ERA 4.56)
he let 72 runs score on just 128 hits and 41 walks (13 HR)
that is a bit high, either his bullpen support was brutal or he had a knack for giving up hits with men on (or both)

Personally, as a Met fan, I look at Maine's career numbers and think, well losing Gaby Hernandez will probably not be a big thing afterall

I guess I'm alone here, but I'm kind of glad to have gotten Benson. I don't know if he's worth the money - or especially adding Maine into the original deal - but I think he's a better pitcher than he was last year. What's more, I think he's a classic Mazzone special - a guy who's got great stuff, shown flashes of brilliance, but always underacheived. I think we could see Benson's career year, simply through the Mazzone affect.

And, while we have some more young pitchers on the way, they aren't ready yet. A year or two of a decent pitcher over 30 is something we kinda do need (veteran presence is usually overplayed, but I don't think we had anyone over 30 on the staff save Chen. When you've got a bunch of young kids, it does help to have at least one guy to show them the way things're done. Not that Benson is going to be some Clemens or Key kinda role model - but he sure makes Ponson look like... well, Ponson).

If anyone thought Tejada was mouthy, get ready for the era of Anna. She is going to hate it here (for both real and imagined reasons), and we're all going to know about it soon enough.

Of course, Angelos will surely be disappointed by Benson because I doubt he takes time to consider park and league affects - factoring those in, if Benson just holds his ERA, that's almost equivalent to Mazzone's .50 ERA reduction. Yet I could see the 2006 roundup going like this:

PA: I don't like this Mazzone. He's costing me an arm and a leg and what's he done so special?

MF: Well, almost every pitcher we had showed marked improvement compared with 2005.

PA: Oh sure, our young guys improved, but they're young, that's to be expected. How about this Benson? You told me to go get this Benson, Mazzone would fix 'im, and his ERA increased!

MF: No, it didn't, Benson actually pitched -

PA: What do you mean it didn't?!! I've got it right here!!!!

MF: That's unadjusted-you have to remember Shea is a pitcher's-

PA: Are you talking imaginary and hypothetical numbers again?!!! I told you never to do that!!! I want facts, not those stupid imaginary numbers!!!

MF: Am I fired now?

PA: Damn straight. And take that Mazzone trash out with you.

Don'y know why you think Benson has "great stuff." Didn't notice that while he was with the Mets. Have you seen him pitch?

What's more, I think he's a classic Mazzone special - a guy who's got great stuff, shown flashes of brilliance, but always underacheived. I think we could see Benson's career year, simply through the Mazzone affect.

I disagree. To my eye, Benson already does almost exactly what Mazzone preaches: he's a classic low-and-away, contact pitcher. Easy delivery, reliably repeatable. I think Benson is already getting as much out of his stuff as the Mazzone principles will allow; he just got there without working with Leo directly.

His problem is that he doesn't maintain his stuff well either in games, or throughout the season. I wouldn't be surprised if he's outstanding in the first half of the season -- and everybody jumps on the Mets for the trade and/or credits Leo for helping him -- but then by the end of the year, he's the same old Kris Benson. OK, but nobody's top-of-the-staff guy.

"I wouldn't be surprised if he's outstanding in the first half of the season -- and everybody jumps on the Mets for the trade and/or credits Leo for helping him -- but then by the end of the year, he's the same old Kris Benson. OK, but nobody's top-of-the-staff guy."

If this actually happens, the O's could make out like bandits if they trade him in July to some team who thinks he's finally blossomed.

That would probably require, of course, that the O's not be even near the WC by the season's mid-point-- otherwise they'll probably trade a prospect for veteran help or something.

If this actually happens, the O's could make out like bandits if they trade him in July to some team who thinks he's finally blossomed.

Helllooo Suppan trade.

I wouldn't count on Glavine being as good as last year or Trachsel pitching enough to obviate the need for another starter to throw a significant number of innings.

It is an even-numbered year, so the Mets have that going for them.