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— A Timely Look at Transactions as They Happen

Sunday, July 30, 2006

Yankees - Acquired Abreu

New York Yankees - Acquired OF Bobby Abreu and P Corey Lidle from the Philadelphia Phillies for SS C.J. Henry, P Matt Smith, P Carlos Monasterios, and C Jesus Sanchez.

Looking at this trade, I’m thinking that maybe I should have traded for Abreu as I think the various trinkets and googaws in the trunk of my car could form the basis of a better package for the Phillies. 

OK, perhaps this is a little mean, even if my Rand McNally Road Atlas, my leather porkpie drinkin’ hat, and my leather conditioner are all fine, quality products.  C.J. Henry’s the biggest name here and while scouts have liked his upside, the fact remains that there’s a very long voyage from hitting 237/326/350 in the Sally League to playing in the majors.  There’s still plenty of time, however, but I generally prefer my low level prospects to be hitting.  I’m hitching my Henry wagon instead to the Pirate SS in the Venezuelan Summer League, the awesomely named Henry Henry, who’s hitting 384/514/500.  I’d be more excited if “C.J.” were in fact “F.J.” which we couldn’t find when we were going down the alphabet a couple years ago.

Next on the list is Matt Smith.  He’s earned a look after two solid seasons since switching to relief.  He’s got a pretty good injury history, but he could be a decent reliever for the Phils, though not the building block you’d want for someone as good as Abreu.  Then again, the Phils and Philadelphia residents don’t seem to generally appreciated that Abreu was that great a player, usually complaining about his defense.  I’m guessing that Matt Smith’s ability level is a little bit worse than the 0.00 ERA he has in 12 major league innings and he probably can’t maintain a .138 BABIP, especially without having Derek Jeter~! behind him on the field.

The other two are more speculative, low level prospects that haven’t been particularly heralded.  Based on play, Monasterios is the more interest prospect, having pitched very well in the GCL.

What does this trade do for the Yankees?  Duh.  They have Bobby Abreu’s bat in the outfield and will hope that Lidle isn’t too horrible in the rotation the rest of the way.  While I don’t root for the Yankees, I do hope that Abreu has super offensive games when Mike Mussina is pitching because I really want Moose to win 20 this year.

Dan Szymborski Posted: July 30, 2006 at 10:27 PM | 125 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. OlePerfesser Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:11 PM (#2118670)
Speaking as a Red Sox fan, crap. I really don't like adding a .427 OBP to that lineup; they are gonna chew up pitching staffs.

Speaking as Steinbrenner's banker, crap. But nobody cares about ROI, just R.
   2. Raleigh Horn Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:17 PM (#2118674)
Whomever gets the best player in a trade wins. So what is it that one team gets the two best players in the trade?
   3. Raleigh Horn Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:18 PM (#2118675)
And oh yeah, they get two high draft picks if they don't resign Abreu
   4. Buzzards Bay Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:19 PM (#2118676)
outside of yankeeville this is perfect,the masterwork,the uber-move..the deal that panders to self-pity and at the same time is giddy with hubris..consistent with the yankee oeuvre..the light bulbs will flash and in tampa and ny it will be said well done and well said welcome aboard..........fertile ground for cynicism--no?--
   5. Robert S. Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:19 PM (#2118677)
He's just another guy for Jeter to bunt over.
   6. jonm Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:31 PM (#2118682)
Great witty comment, Dan. You're dead-on right.

The other thread is focused on the Yankees it seems, so I'll try to get a Phillie angle here. What is wrong with the Phillie organization? This strikes me as a Dallas Green-type trade. Does he still have influence? Why do the Phillies over-value toolsy guys like Henry?
   7. J. Michael Neal Posted: July 30, 2006 at 11:43 PM (#2118688)
The problem is that the Phillies seem to think that they play in a small market, and need salary relief at all times.
   8. CiC Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:01 AM (#2118703)
outside of yankeeville this is perfect,the masterwork,the uber-move..the deal that panders to self-pity and at the same time is giddy with hubris..consistent with the yankee oeuvre..the light bulbs will flash and in tampa and ny it will be said well done and well said welcome aboard..........fertile ground for cynicism--no?--

I'm rather indifferent. Can Abreu save pitch in the 7th inning?
   9. CiC Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:05 AM (#2118709)
save pitch? What the hell..

Can Abreu pitch in the 7th inning is my damn question.
   10. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:06 AM (#2118710)
I can't believe that Chase Utley is going to waste away his prime years with that malfunctioning organization. That seems wrong somehow.
   11. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:10 AM (#2118718)
Speaking of which, I wonder if the Phils are interested in unloading Burrell. I'm sure that a half-dozen teams, including my Mets, would be happy to put together a "package" of minor-leaguers for him.
   12. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:28 AM (#2118735)
According to Gillick, he had 4 teams to trade with, as Ed Wade not only gave generous contracts, he liked to include no-trades too. I would look at it differently than Gillick did. I would eat salary to get talent, albeit projected talent, rather than dumping talent and salary as he did.
I'm very dubious of signing free agents these days, as they are overpaid and signed for too long and very often become albatrosses. I'd just as soon have Abreu for the next 1.3 years and take the 2 draft picks when he walked, if I had the caj*nes to offer 12 mil in arbitration.
Certainly Lidle could have brought some Class A player with some upside by himself.

Abreu's power loss is a concern for the Yankees. I wonder if pitchers will start to go after him more. I had not seen it this year but in that lineup, he might be the guy you go after.
   13. 1k5v3L Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:34 AM (#2118749)
It really sucks that the Red Sox won't make the playoffs this year... not.
   14. Bobby Savoy Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:48 AM (#2118782)
I had not seen it this year but in that lineup, he might be the guy you go after.

I'm not saying that this won't happen, but it's a pretty messed up baseball world where Bobby Abreu is the guy in the lineup that you go after.
   15. Banta Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:54 AM (#2118793)
Abreu slugging % by month:

April .550
May .471
June .404
July .313
   16. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:57 AM (#2118804)
I'm not saying that this won't happen, but it's a pretty messed up baseball world where Bobby Abreu is the guy in the lineup that you go after.

I'm thinking that each of the Yankee starters can have their own personal servant bringing them hor d'oeuvres in between at-bats in the dugout. And a personal caddy to bring each his bat on the on-deck circle. A-Rod can spare his extra one to serve Cano. That would be so cool.
   17. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:02 AM (#2118823)
I refuse to believe this is the best the Phillies could get for Bobby Abreu. I'm sure the Mets would have made a better offer.
   18. fuzzycopper Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:02 AM (#2118825)
Speaking of which, I wonder if the Phils are interested in unloading Burrell. I'm sure that a half-dozen teams, including my Mets, would be happy to put together a "package" of minor-leaguers for him.

If Abreu is worth A-ball quality players, that must mean Burrell is worth two American Legion players and the slugging beer-bellied first baseman on the company softball team.
   19. Gaelan Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:11 AM (#2118844)
Yet again teams bend over to give the Yankees what they want. Selig should have vetoed this trade.
   20. Banta Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:14 AM (#2118850)
I refuse to believe this is the best the Phillies could get for Bobby Abreu. I'm sure the Mets would have made a better offer.

I agree. I also think that I read somewhere that the Mets were one of the teams that Abreu would have gone to.

This leads me to believe that Abreu might be a touch in the done column.
   21. The Ghost of the Bearded Wizard Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:35 AM (#2118903)
Yet again teams bend over to give the Yankees what they want. Selig should have vetoed this trade.


On what grounds could this be vetoed? What is this, a roto league? Maybe all the other owners should get togther and vote on every deal.
   22. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:35 AM (#2118904)
Don't f0rget that Abreu is also a gold-glove outfielder. Nice to get Bernie out of right field. And even better getting Phillips out of the line-up.
   23. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:38 AM (#2118912)
Abreu slugging % by month

Get ready for the plexiglass principle to take effect.
   24. John Reynard Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:47 AM (#2118920)
Don't f0rget that Abreu is also a gold-glove outfielder. Nice to get Bernie out of right field. And even better getting Phillips out of the line-up.

You've never seen Abreu play if you think he's gold-glove caliber. He's better than Pat "I field and hit like Incaviglia" Burrell but thats no great feat. I'd say Abreu is a slightly below-average fielder with a good throwing arm from watching him 60-70 games a year -- so right about average all together.
   25. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:49 AM (#2118921)
I'd say Abreu is a slightly below-average fielder with a good throwing arm from watching him 60-70 games a year -- so right about average all together.

Which makes him about a million times better in the field than Bernie Williams.
   26. Banta Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:51 AM (#2118924)
Get ready for the plexiglass principle to take effect.

Over his last 601 ABs, Abreu has a slugging percentage of .424. The bounce back may not be very large.
   27. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:54 AM (#2118928)
Which makes him about a million times better in the field than Bernie Williams.

Which still does not make him any more a Gold Glove outfielder than Gary Sheffield.
   28. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:03 AM (#2118947)
Over his last 601 ABs, Abreu has a slugging percentage of .424. The bounce back may not be very large.

Giambi can help Abreu with that. Abreu has a vitamin deficiency.
   29. fuzzycopper Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:09 AM (#2118956)
You've never seen Abreu play if you think he's gold-glove caliber

Man, did you nail that one on the head. He has a decent arm and fair range, but he fields fly balls like a kid in school prematurely woken up from a daydream (this also happens on the basepaths: see Friday's game when he was picked off first), from throwing to the wrong base to getting atrocious jumps on balls hit his way. He's a helluva hitter but merely an average fielding RF and was crucified in Philly for, among other things, seeming to not care whether he won or lost and playing below his perceived talent level.
   30. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:15 AM (#2118971)
I'm not reading the other thread.

Does anyone know Abreu's relationship with Bowa, with whom he's gonna share a dugout?

Is Abreu on a HoF path? I understand he's having a bad year, but if that's an isolated thing, would he be otherwise HoF bound?
   31. Robert S. Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:23 AM (#2118993)
I thought Abreu was making a nice run at a VC selection. I've been a bit surprised to see a power/speed guy break down like Abreu has - power first. If he has fallen off a cliff, I don't think he merits much discussion.
   32. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:24 AM (#2118995)
would he be otherwise HoF bound?

Not with the ASG snubs, I wouldn't think.
   33. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:35 AM (#2119010)
I want to say this again. It's not right that Chase Utley should be wasted on a team like the Phillies.
   34. Sam M. Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:41 AM (#2119013)
I'm sure the Mets would have made a better offer.

I'm not. And even if they would have, I'm not sure the Phillies really would care. They wanted the salary dump, period. The talent was totally irrelevant here. So if they could get the salary dump from the Yankees, why strengthen a team in their own division instead?

The reason, by the way, I'm not sure the Mets would have made a better (or any) offer is because I think they'd have insisted on the Phillies eating some of the dollars. Omar wants so save some of his Matsui/Floyd contract savings for 2007 for FA shopping; I don't think he wants to give it all up right now on Bobby Abreu.
   35. JC in DC Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:42 AM (#2119015)
I'm just saying, but I SWEAR everytime I read defensive analysis of players at this site, the players are immediately downgraded upon being shipped to the Yankees.
   36. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:45 AM (#2119018)
Dial rated Abreu as -3 over 150

That doesn't include his arm, BTW
   37. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:47 AM (#2119019)
Abreu is terrified of outfield walls. It is almost comical.

The Phillies didn't get much but I understand why the Phillies made this deal. The Phillies are less than the sum of their parts and have been so for a few years now. There's no reason a team with that amount of talent should be closer to last place than first place. I guess management grew tired of waiting for the Phillies to break through.
   38. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:47 AM (#2119020)
I'm sure the Mets would have made a better offer.

I'm not. And even if they would have, I'm not sure the Phillies really would care. They wanted the salary dump, period. The talent was totally irrelevant here. So if they could get the salary dump from the Yankees, why strengthen a team in their own division instead?

The reason, by the way, I'm not sure the Mets would have made a better (or any) offer is because I think they'd have insisted on the Phillies eating some of the dollars. Omar wants so save some of his Matsui/Floyd contract savings for 2007 for FA shopping; I don't think he wants to give it all up right now on Bobby Abreu.


Yeah, I'm torn about tying up so much salary in Abreu for next year. This year I don't mind, but I don't want Omar hamstrung in his pursuit of the top FAs this offseason. It's only the Yankees that can offer a player 10+ million and not blink an eye in benching him if it doesn't work out.

I've heard that many teams are in good financial shape. The contracts offered this offseason should be bumped up accordingly.
   39. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:51 AM (#2119028)
This year I don't mind, but I don't want Omar hamstrung in his pursuit of the top FAs this offseason.

Which top FAs are these? Somebody around here listed the guys who are hitting the market this winter and it's none too inspiring, beyond Lee and Soriano.
   40. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:51 AM (#2119029)
I've heard that many teams are in good financial shape. The contracts offered this offseason should be bumped up accordingly.

Here is a list of the FAs: link

Weakish class and tons of money to be spent.

The market $/win is going to get crazy.
   41. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:53 AM (#2119032)
I don't want to hijack this thread but do you think the Mets are going to increase their payroll next season? The 2006 season has been a tremendous success for the Mets on and off the field. Their new station has probably made a ton of money and the Mets are probably going to draw around 3.5 million fans. There's really no reason why the Mets can't boost their payroll by a significant margin next season.
   42. Rob Base Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:56 AM (#2119037)
Carlos Lee + Schmidt or Zito make Base a happy boy.
   43. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:03 AM (#2119050)
I think that list is a little fishy, it lists Griffey as a FA this offseason and I'm pretty sure that's not right.
   44. John DiFool2 Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:05 AM (#2119054)
Haven't seen much in the way of stats for the guys the Phillies are getting-blue chips,
stiffs, or something in between?
   45. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:07 AM (#2119058)
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2000/04/possible-free-agents.html

This is a great site for info about contracts, salaries, etc.
   46. John DiFool2 Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:10 AM (#2119062)
NVM, read the intro (yawn) g'nite all. Hope the Sox have something to answer this.
   47. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:11 AM (#2119063)
Stiffs.
   48. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:17 AM (#2119069)
This year I don't mind, but I don't want Omar hamstrung in his pursuit of the top FAs this offseason.

Which top FAs are these? Somebody around here listed the guys who are hitting the market this winter and it's none too inspiring, beyond Lee and Soriano.


The Mets will need 1-2 frontline pitchers, depending on whether Glavine returns. And of course, there's that tasty Cuban IFer/OFer who is rumored to be offering his services.

I aim for Gourriel, Matzusaka, and either Schmidt or Zito. That's a heavy bill.
   49. chris p Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:20 AM (#2119073)
I'm just saying, but I SWEAR everytime I read defensive analysis of players at this site, the players are immediately downgraded upon being shipped to the Yankees.

what happens is that players get worse defensively as they age, but sometimes you forget to re-evaluate a guy each year. then he gets traded to the yankees and you look up his stats and you realize he's like 55 years old, well past time to take another look at his defense. you look at his defense and you realize that he's not quite as good as he was when he was 24--hence, the immediate downgrade upon being shipped to the yankees.
   50. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:21 AM (#2119075)
Has Matsuzaka truly decided to come to the US?

That guy will get at least $12MM/yr I would imagine.
   51. Spivey Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:31 AM (#2119090)
The Phillies fans have always been down on Abreu's defense. I don't think you've actually been reading the comments on his D, JC. It's ok my son, I forgive you.
   52. Rodder Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:31 AM (#2119091)
This will be a very interesting offseason for Philly & Gillick. About $35 million to spend (depending on arbitration increases) a need for an outfielder, third baseman, catcher, 2 starting pitchers, & at least 2 relievers.
   53. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:34 AM (#2119095)
Has Matsuzaka truly decided to come to the US?

That guy will get at least $12MM/yr I would imagine.


He hasn't made that choice yet, but it would be the first year he will be eligible to be posted. Since all the big stars from Japan have taken the challenge, I would imagine that Matzusaka will as well. Yeah, I also think he is going to be expensive.
   54. Darren Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:37 AM (#2119099)
Don't forget to add in what you have to pay his team. One fun exercise for a team like Boston or NY, would be to offer $50 mil. for the rights to negotiate with Matsuzaka. Then you simply offer him a league minimum salary, and he goes back to Japan, and you're not overpaying, and no one else gets him.
   55. Spivey Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:40 AM (#2119102)
Then you simply offer him a league minimum salary, and he goes back to Japan, and you're not overpaying, and no one else gets him.

Couldn't someone else just negotiate with him next year?
   56. Raleigh Horn Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:42 AM (#2119106)
Yeah, and you can kiss off ever doing business in the Japan leagues again or of ever signing an Asian free agent.
   57. Darren Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:46 AM (#2119111)
I know you'd be screwing your self, but it'd be fun.
   58. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:46 AM (#2119112)
The Japanese team can always breach the contract. The US team would then have to prove damages to recover anything and the lack of a good faith offer on their part could mean that number is zero.
   59. Sam M. Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:47 AM (#2119115)
Then you simply offer him a league minimum salary, and he goes back to Japan, and you're not overpaying, and no one else gets him.

I know baseball has an exemption from U.S. anti-trust laws, but I doubt they have one from Japanese laws. Of course, I have no idea whether Japanese laws would cover this, but it's worth noting that such conduct would be a blatant restraint of trade under U.S. anti-trust law, if it could apply.
   60. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:57 AM (#2119124)
I aim for Gourriel, Matzusaka, and either Schmidt or Zito. That's a heavy bill.

If Gourriel has defected it sounds like he'll be a Yankee, and I think if Matsuzaka is posted he will be to since the Yankees are doing all the right things to make nice with Seibu and I've haerd Matsuzaka would like to join Matsui on the Yankees. I think you'll get at least one of either Schmidt or Zito, though, and I still wouldn't be surprised about Sori or Lee playing LF next year in Shea.

Then you simply offer him a league minimum salary, and he goes back to Japan, and you're not overpaying, and no one else gets him.

And you're out $50 million since you pay the money to the team and it doesn't matter whether you sign him or not. Also, the team that wins the bidding wil be hand picked by the team with no outside forces influencing their decision. Because of this the team that is the winner is the team that does things the way Seibu ownership likes and will have the final shot to win.
   61. NJ in DC Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:57 AM (#2119125)
The Yankees have already made a move towards acquiring Matzu...
   62. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 31, 2006 at 03:59 AM (#2119127)
Holy #### my grammar in that last post was awful.
   63. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:03 AM (#2119132)
If Gourriel has defected it sounds like he'll be a Yankee,

He's been in Cuba, shut off from news about the US. He hasn't been told that the young and rising team in NYC are the Mets. El Duque will explain that to him.


Because of this the team that is the winner is the team that does things the way Seibu ownership likes and will have the final shot to win.

Time for the Mets to flash some diplomacy skills. Convince Seibu that the Yankees are like the evil Yomiuri behemoths - why feed the monsters?
   64. Шĥy Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:07 AM (#2119137)
If Gourriel has defected it sounds like he'll be a Yankee

I know a lot of people think highly of Gourriel, but is he really ready to dislplace a future HOF like Cano?
   65. FJ Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:37 AM (#2119167)
I’d be more excited if “C.J.” were in fact “F.J.” which we couldn’t find when we were going down the alphabet a couple years ago.


I know. Everyone wants to be me.

It's a tough life to live, but someone's got to do it.

F
   66. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: July 31, 2006 at 05:58 AM (#2119253)
Jesus Christ, the Red Sox are proper ###### now and they'll be praising Cashman for pulling the trigger like they did with ####### Justice in the 90's.

That's right...proper ######
   67. J. Cross Posted: July 31, 2006 at 06:26 AM (#2119265)
1) Gourriel hasn't defected. If he had, I think he would be a tremendous pickup.

2) Matsuzaka rocks and wouldn't cost two draft picks. I think he's the guy who has a chance to be Pedro-like (recent Pedro, not peak Pedro) both in his performance and his ability to bring excitement and a crowd.

3) I like Floyd; enough that I'm sort of hoping that we bring him back and ditch Nady. Floyd-Beltran-Milledge with Chavez as the 4th gives us the best defensive combination.
   68. Walt Davis Posted: July 31, 2006 at 06:59 AM (#2119273)
It's only the Yankees that can offer a player 10+ million and not blink an eye in benching him if it doesn't work out.

They could afford it but they (a) almost never do it because (b) they almost never have to do it. For god's sake, so far even the Giambi contract hasn't been that bad. They may overpay, but they know talent and they make very few big mistakes when it comes to big-money players.

is he really ready to dislplace a future HOF like Cano?

Well, he's certainly not going to replace Cairo because Cairo does all the little things you need to do to win.
   69. Raskolnikov Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:08 AM (#2119277)
They may overpay, but they know talent and they make very few big mistakes when it comes to big-money players.


Big Unit, Contreras, Pavano, Wright, Vazquez, Mondesi, Aaron Boone, Lofton, Lawton, Canseco ... it's just selective memory at work. You don't remember their busts because they can clean it up easier than any other team.
   70. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:18 AM (#2119281)
Big Unit, Contreras, Pavano, Wright

These were terrible, though I still contend that Contreras was a good contract ruined by bone-headed coaching.

Aaron Boone, Lofton, Lawton, Canseco

Lawton and Canseco were on the team for about a month and a half apiece and were hardly costly. Lofton's contract was nothing remarkable, either. Boone blew out his knee before we could figure if the contract was reasonable or not and they voided it for not too much.
   71. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:19 AM (#2119282)
Even some of those aren't total busts. Johnson gave them a good 3/4 season last year, and has been all right for the past couple of months. Contreras had a reasonable half-season in 2003, I seem to remember. Wright's performing as a decent back-of-the-rotation starter. Vazquez was good for half a season, then bought Johnson. Boone hit one huge home run. Lofton was a decent part-timer. Canseco hit well, but Torre wouldn't use him.
   72. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:19 AM (#2119283)
You also forgot Womack, who was far worse than Lofton, Canseco, or Lawton. What a terrible player.
   73. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:21 AM (#2119284)
Weaver and Brown were busts. Rondell White was a semi-bust.
   74. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:22 AM (#2119285)
Brown had a good year in 2004.
   75. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:24 AM (#2119286)
Brown had a good year in 2004.

When he was able to make his way to the mound. And he blew Game 7 of the ALCS early. They were cooked the minute he stepped on the mound.
   76. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:25 AM (#2119287)
They may overpay, but they know talent and they make very few big mistakes when it comes to big-money players.

ridiculous.

They're worse than any other team at big-money players.

Kevin Brown, Jaret Wirght, Irabu, Karsay, Womack, Loaiza, Ventura, Drew Henson, Neagle
   77. Morph Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:30 AM (#2119289)
Big Unit, Contreras, Pavano, Wright, Vazquez, Mondesi, Aaron Boone, Lofton, Lawton, Canseco ... it's just selective memory at work. You don't remember their busts because they can clean it up easier than any other team.


Canseco? Come on now. He was a waiver claim. Nobody was expecting 40/40 out of the juice head. Lofton didn't cost that much. And who would have thought Javy's career was set to spiral down the crapper? So strong was the legend of Javy that people STILL think he's good to this day.

I say you're right about Johnson, sort of, he'll have 15 wins this year but a high ERA. They don't make the Post-Season last year without him, though. Jaret Wright... yuck. He'd actually be a decent back end guy if he cost 3 Mil instead of 7.

Who's this Carl Pavano you speak of?
   78. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:32 AM (#2119290)
Loaiza, Ventura

Loaiza was on the team for two months. He wasn't big-ticket. Ventura was pretty good. Certainly not egregiously overpaid. The Yankees have certainly overpaid for at least their fair share of under-performers, but those two aren't them.
   79. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2006 at 07:33 AM (#2119291)
I say you're right about Johnson, sort of, he'll have 15 wins this year but a high ERA.

I predict that his August/September ERA will be around 6. He sucks.
   80. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: July 31, 2006 at 08:05 AM (#2119308)
I think some people have a very bit definition of big ticket. I would call Giambi, Damon, ARod, Sheff, Mastui, Mussina, Clemens, Brown (sort of), Vazquez, Cone, maybe a few more. In other words we are tlkaing guys who m ake about 10 mil or higher, Brown is sort of because his was a trade in which the Yankees also got rid of Weaver, who was bad. Maybe Pavano.

Still, that is only Vazquez, Brown, and Pavano that haven't worked out and one could say that Vazquez is questionable since he had a decent year and was traded right away.

In other words, Walt is right. The Yankees are usually right on the big ticket guys, the only resaon we can name a few busts is because they do the big ticket thing so often.
   81. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: July 31, 2006 at 08:37 AM (#2119315)
yeah, but almost by definition you don't become a big ticket guy if you stink, the fact that any $10m guys implode isn't good.
   82. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2006 at 08:46 AM (#2119316)
2) Matsuzaka rocks and wouldn't cost two draft picks. I think he's the guy who has a chance to be Pedro-like (recent Pedro, not peak Pedro) both in his performance and his ability to bring excitement and a crowd.


I want to see Shonsuke Watanabe in the Sox pen next year.
   83. "Andruw for HoF" sure died down Posted: July 31, 2006 at 08:48 AM (#2119317)
I can't believe we're talking about Yankees busts and no one's mentioned Kenny Rogers.
   84. "Andruw for HoF" sure died down Posted: July 31, 2006 at 08:48 AM (#2119318)
I can't believe we're talking about Yankees busts and no one's mentioned Kenny Rogers.
   85. NBarnes Posted: July 31, 2006 at 09:28 AM (#2119325)
Not much to see here. The Yankees paper over their offseason failures to plan for adequate backup outfielders (Bernie Williams was good enough in 1999 and he'll danm well be good enough this year!) with big fat Benjamins. Afterwards, Yankees fans will pretend that it was the team pulling together and playing the game right.
   86. Steamer46 Posted: July 31, 2006 at 10:10 AM (#2119333)
Hey - what about some equal time here? All we hear about is the Yankees' bloackbuster acquisitions and not a word about the Sox huge trade to get Brian Corey???
   87. Harris Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:22 PM (#2119370)
I'm a Phillies fan who's not all that sad to see Abreu gone. He had a great run with the team, always seems to get on base, but until the last couple months, he was ridiculously overrated. He feared playing the wall. That frequently cost the team runs. His arm was strong but inaccurate. For someone with his speed and presumed power, you'd expect a few more triples out of him, but he was always content to coast into 2nd base. He walked alot, but when you've got a guy on second in the ninth and your down a run, it's really frustrating to see him "work the count" while watching a 2-0 meatball split the heart of the plate.

The fella who posted about this team just needing to shake things up had it right. There's too much perceived talent all over this club to have it suck the way it does. Howard and Utley are studs. Burrell, Rollins, Rowand, and the catcher spot have been average (they all have their faults tho..), Bell was a debacle, the starting pitching has been poor, and the bullpen overworked.

If they only could have gazed into the crystal ball and seen that they should have traded Abreu at the middle of last year, they'd have gotten something better in return. They forgot to buy low and sell high. Once it became apparent that Abreu was on the decline with performance they decide to move him and frankly he's just not worth as much as this point.

Lidle had actually been a good SP of late. He was very consistent. I don't have his log right here, but I think for the season 90% of his starts were about about 5-6 innings, 3-4 runs. Of late, he'd done a lot better. I imagine they had to throw him into the deal to get the yanks to take Abreu's salary (or at least that's what Cashman sold, and the Phils bought it!)
   88. Bad Doctor Posted: July 31, 2006 at 12:46 PM (#2119382)
Certainly Lidle could have brought some Class A player with some upside by himself.

Yeah, that sounds about right ... Lidle would've fetched Monasterious himself.

Henry and Sanchez, their production has been pretty lousy so far, but their talent level is pretty similar to the first and sandwich pick the Phillies would get for keeping Abreu until he left in free agency.

So basically, the Phillies traded a borderline Hall of Famer who is only 32 and, even if his power is sapped, would still make for the premier leadoff hitter in baseball right now for a decent lefty set-up man. Ed Wade lives!!!

This is basically malpractice by Gillick, unless the other shoe to drop is that the Phillies are cutting back payroll pretty drastically next year, and hence his hands were tied. For all the salary dump screeching, this wasn't a Todd Helton contract ... the Phils were in for one more year at $15M, and a $2M buyout after that. They already had $30M to spend (based on this year's budget) before this move. Based on what Gillick said last week, he's not going to spend heavily on starting pitching, which is what they need, and based on what he said yesterday, it seems like he's not even going to spend to compete in 2007. So why clear off $45M if you're not going to spend? Methinks some of the owners want new shore houses.
   89. ColonelTom Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:13 PM (#2119400)
It's a great trade for the Yankees, obviously. But I'm OK with it from the Phils' perspective. They didn't get much talent-wise, but I suspect they'll try to use the savings to (1) get some veteran help in the rotation and (2) lock up Utley and Howard long-term in the next year or so.

That said, I'd love to see them offer Baltimore Pat Burrell and Jimmy Rollins for Tejada. If the Phils took Rodrigo Lopez off their hands, I wonder if Baltimore might bite. Of course, then they'd have to convince Burrell to go to Baltimore. (Thank you Ed Wade for those stupid no-trade contracts....)
   90. SG Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:29 PM (#2119411)
Afterwards, Yankees fans will pretend that it was the team pulling together and playing the game right.
Far be it from me to deny the Yankees employ a huge payroll advantage, but you do realize that sans Abreu the team is tied for first in the loss column despite losing their two starting corner OF, right?

Great trade for the Yanks. Looks like somewhere in the neighborhood of two wins over the remainder of the season. For the Phillies, I don't think it makes much sense, but apparently Cashman was insistent on Lidle if he was going to take Abreu's contract.
   91. Harris Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:30 PM (#2119413)
They've already tried to get Burrell to waive his ntc to go to Baltimore and he declined.
   92. Harris Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:35 PM (#2119416)
If the yanks can convince abreu to bat leadoff and take walks its a good fit because the yankees can mvoe him around the bases. I'd often heard that Abreu was unwilling to bat leadoff.
   93. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: July 31, 2006 at 01:58 PM (#2119438)
They didn't get much talent-wise, but I suspect they'll try to use the savings to (1) get some veteran help in the rotation and (2) lock up Utley and Howard long-term in the next year or so.

Two problems:

1) Gillick has said he won't go after free agent pitching.

2) Utley and Howard aren't due major raises for a couple years; by that point ABreu's contract would have been off the books anyway.

Shore houses is dead on.
   94. Fat Al Posted: July 31, 2006 at 02:42 PM (#2119479)
If the yanks can convince abreu to bat leadoff and take walks its a good fit because the yankees can mvoe him around the bases. I'd often heard that Abreu was unwilling to bat leadoff.

I would expect Abreu to bat third or fifth. Torre ain't taking Damon out of leadoff, Jeter will stay in the 2-hole, then I would put Abreu 3d, Rodriguez at cleanup, then Giambi. I guess you could put Abreu 5, with Giambi at cleanup, but that doesn't seem as good to me, because it would be nice to actually have the first 4 hitters in the lineup be guys who can actually run the bases a bit.
   95. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:01 PM (#2119599)
I'd flip Jeter and Abreu in that lineup. But other than that, I don't mind it.
   96. Mister High Standards Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:11 PM (#2119614)
column despite losing their two starting corner OF, right?


While I have no problems with the move I do want to point out that I think the argument quoted above is BS, the major advantage of the Yankees and to a lesser but still true extent the RedSox should be to inulate themseleves from injury by having better backups on hand. The Yankees didn't, and that isn't a reason to rally behind this scrappy bunch, but another reason to accuse the FO of piss poor talant managemnet.

The Red Sox are also guilty of this.
   97. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:17 PM (#2119618)
While I have no problems with the move I do want to point out that I think the argument quoted above is BS, the major advantage of the Yankees and to a lesser but still true extent the RedSox should be to inulate themseleves from injury by having better backups on hand. The Yankees didn't, and that isn't a reason to rally behind this scrappy bunch, but another reason to accuse the FO of piss poor talant managemnet.

MHS, a logical extension of this is that if someone carelessly smokes in bed, starting a house fire, you wouldn't want to help him out of the fire.

Helping this person out and being glad he's OK is completely separate from condemning him as stupid for causing that situation. But all he and you can do after the fire has started is to fix/minimize the damage.

Sure, both of our FOs have built flawed teams. But all they can do now is to improve them, and they should be commended for that if it works.
   98. The Original SJ Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:22 PM (#2119626)
So they need to add 2 men to the 40 man roster, and are only taking off Smith correct?

DFA Ponson and retro 60 day DL Sheffield?
   99. SG Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:24 PM (#2119629)
DFA Bubba.
   100. The Original SJ Posted: July 31, 2006 at 04:28 PM (#2119635)
Did they do that already? Because that would be exciting.
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