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Wednesday, October 07, 2009

Predicting the 2009 Playoffs

Over the past couple of years, I have added to the original work of Vinay Kumar (whom last time I saw him put in appearance

around here went by the name Harold) in trying to find the statistical categories that have the most value to a team in the

postseason. Vinay’s work first appeared in an article at The Hardball Times web site

href=”http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/so-billy-what-does-work-in-the-playoffs”>“So Billy, What Does Work in the

Playoffs?” about how regular season statistics for a team could forecast its chances of success in the postseason.

Vinay’s work has stood the test of time, although with one or two minor changes. The result is a system that does work quite

well at identifying the teams that will reach the World Series. Its record in the finals themselves is not very good, and

this year it became apparent to me that there is an issue related to the difference between the two leagues. National League

teams have won twice (2006 and 2008) when they should have lost, and American League teams once (2004). For the World Series

itself, different rules seem to apply.

The Categories

Vinay used 30 categories in his original research. But rather than using the data straight up, he used minimum splits between

two teams in order to eliminate about half of the results, to ensure that the data only reflected when a team had distinct

advantage over its opponent. The columns below show the winning percentage in each category through 2007, and how the 2008

results changed them. The numbers in parentheses indicate how many series these categories were a factor. In the case of

Won-Lost Record, 50 series featured one team having an advantage of five wins over its opponent.


Team totals:              through 2007 adding 2008
Won-lost record (50)                  .600             .580
Runs Scored/Runs Allowed (48)            .565             .563

Batting records:
Runs scored total (47)                  .419             .426
Batting average (54)                  .450             .440
On-base percentage (51)                .468             .451
Slugging percentage (42)                .452             .476
Doubles (58)                        .453             .448
Triples (63)                        .448             .484
Home runs (48)                      .477             .479
Batter walks (49)                    .543             .551
Batter strikeouts (fewer) (59)            .577             .559
Stolen bases (47)                    .477             .511
Stolen base attempts (more) (49)          .522             .551
Net stolen bases (52)                  .396             .442
Stolen base Average (59)                .327             .373
Caught stealing (fewer) (54)              .396             .426

Pitching records:
Runs allowed (48)                    .638             .646
ERA (49)                          .592             .592
Pitchers strikeouts (50)                .551             .540
Pitchers walks (fewer) (44)              .550             .523
Hits allowed (fewer) (48)                .739             .729
Home runs allowed (fewer) (37)            .600             .595
Complete games (51)                    .617             .608
Pitchers’ shutouts (55)                .667             .673
Saves (56)                          .480             .482
Saves by team leader (53)                .574             .566
Bullpen ERA (61)                      .545             .574

Fielding records:
Errors committed (fewer) (50)            .660             .680
Defensive efficiency (52)                .667             .654
Fielding double plays (54)              .500             .500

Over the years there have been fluctuations in the ranking of the categories. Vinay caught the speed indicators at a high.

After his 2003 snapshot, they started to fall and only reversed the decline last postseason. They’ve recovered a little bit

of ground, but the running game isn’t all the significant for postseason success. Bullpen depth continued its rise. Vinay

found the Bullpen ERA winning percentage was .471. It’s added over 100 points in the last five seasons. The top three gainers

since 2003 have been Bullpen ERA, Home Runs and Slugging Percentage. The worst three losers have been Batter Strikeouts

(whiffing isn’t such a penalty), Stolen Bases and Triples.

Two seasons ago I divided the categories into strong and weak ones, the strong ones being those where the teams holding the

advantage have won more than half the playoff series. This creates a set of super categories. It is beginning to look like it

might be worth jettisoning some of the worse performing categories. Batting Average, for example, has never looked like

getting close to the .500 level. In fact, there is very little movement across the .500 boundary, all of two categories. But

that’s enough to keep me from reducing the number of categories.

Here are the strong categories, ranked by their winning percentage:


Hits allowed
Errors committed (fewer)
Pitchers’ shutouts
Defensive efficiency
Runs allowed
Complete Games
Home Runs Allowed (fewer)
ERA
Won-lost Record
Bullpen ERA
Saves by team leader
Runs Scored/Runs allowed
Batters’ strikeouts (fewer)
Batters’ walks
Stolen Base Attempts
Pitchers’ strikeouts
Pitchers’ walks (fewer)
Stolen Bases

Stolen Bases returns after a season out of the list. Let’s carry this information forward and profile the 2009 Divisional

Series. I’ve put the strong categories in italics.

Minnesota Twins vs New York Yankees

The Twins had to win one of the greatest baseball games of all time in order to get humiliated by the Yankees. I’m on record

as saying that the 2010 British General Election will be a good one to lose, and I think the same applied to the playoff game

between the AL Central’s postseason candidates.

Twins’ advantages


Triples
Pitchers’ Walks

Yankees’ advantages


Won-Lost Record
Runs Scored/Runs Allowed

Runs Scored
On-Base Percentage
Slugging Percentage
Doubles
Home Runs
Batters’ Walks
Net Stolen Bases
Pitchers’ Strikeouts
Hits Allowed
Defensive Efficiency

PREDICTOR PICK: NEW YORK YANKEES

Hedging my bet: St Jude, ora pro geminis.

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim vs. Boston Red Sox

This has become a perennial postseason match-up, and each year the Red Sox’s fan wave a friendly farewell to the Rally Monkey

as they celebrate moving on to the next round. Last season, the Angels should have won, and didn’t. This time have the Angels

finally found a recipe to keep that Rally Monkey jumping around past the Boston series?

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim advantages


Batting Average
Triples
Batters’ Strikeouts
Stolen Base Attempts
Shut Outs

Saves
Saves by Closer
Double Plays

Boston Red Sox’ advantages


Doubles
Home Runs
Batters’ Walks
Net Stolen Bases
Stolen Base Percentage
Caught Stealing
Pitchers’ Strikeouts

PREDICTOR PICK: LOS ANGELES ANGELS of ANAHEIM

Hedging my bets: The Red Stockings seem to have a hoo-doo over the Angels.

Colorado Rockies vs. Philadelphia Phillies

The Phillies are out to avenge 2007. (Has anyone else noticed that this is the third year in succession the Phillies have

made the postseason? Wasn’t Disco music fashionable the last time the Phillies were this consistent? Maybe B.T. Express

should have the last word on that.) This Colorado team, though, is very different to that 2007 National League Champion. It

doesn’t have the bullpen and that is the fashionable accessory for the playoff team du jour.

Rockies’ advantages


Triples
Batters’ Walks
Home Runs Allowed

Double Plays

Phillies’ advantages


Home Runs
Batters’ Strikeouts
Net Stolen Bases
Stolen Base Average
Caught Stealing
Shut Outs
Complete Games
Bullpen ERA

PREDICTOR PICK: PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES

Hedging my bet: That’s an uninspiring set of advantages the Phillies have. This is the first decisive prediction I’ve seen in

three seasons that I have no confidence in.


Los Angeles Dodgers vs St Louis Cardinals

Tony La Russa’s team hits for power and they are fiends on the basepaths. What’s missing? They don’t get on base. The Dodgers

come with tons of pitching and some defence. This could be more of a mismatch than the predictor suggests. 
Dodgers’ advantages


Runs Scored/Runs Allowed
On-base Percentage
Batters’ strikeouts
Caught Stealing
Pitchers’ Strikeouts
Pitchers’ Walks
Hits Allowed
Bullpen ERA

Errors
Defensive Efficiency

Cardinals’ advantages


Doubles
Home Runs
Stolen Bases
Stolen Base Attempts

Net Stolen Bases
Stolen Base Average
Complete Games
Shut Outs

Double Plays

PREDICTOR PICK: LOS ANGELES DODGERS

Hedging my bets: La Russa’s teams always do the opposite of the numbers, losing to the Red Sox they should have beaten in

2004.


Peering Further Ahead

Wow, the network bosses will be rubbing their hands with glee. Look at the size of those media markets in the Championship

Series! And it’s a gift that keeps on giving as we go back to the 1950s for a Dodgers vs Yankees World Series. How will that

turn out? Well, let’s see a little closer to the date if I can’t give you better information about what does work in the

World Series.

fra paolo Posted: October 07, 2009 at 01:52 PM | 58 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 07, 2009 at 02:25 PM (#3343557)
Twins over Yankees
Red Sox over Angels
Red Sox over Twins

Cards over Dodgers
Phillies over Rockies
Cards over Phillies

Cards over Red Sox in 7
   2. JMPH Posted: October 07, 2009 at 02:32 PM (#3343569)
Twins over Yankees

I like you.
   3. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2009 at 02:51 PM (#3343590)
Obviously the following is mostly fanboyism, but...

Two of the big advantages for the Angels over the Red Sox are shutouts and saves by closer. These are, I assume, rough measures of the quality of the frontline starting pitching and the quality of the ace reliever. In both cases, though the Angels score higher, the Red Sox are clearly the superior club.

To make a substantive argument, what I'm interested in here are less the quantitative relations between stolen base attempts and playoff success (.53 or .47?), but the more general claims we can make from this data about what works in the playoffs.

It seems like what we learn is, mostly, that pitching and defense win championships. There are mild exceptions (batter's walks), but mostly, it's better to be a run prevention team than a run scorin team in the playoffs. That's definitely interesting. The specifics look to me to get to fluctuate-y to say a lot about individual categories.
   4. sunnyday2 Posted: October 07, 2009 at 02:56 PM (#3343601)
Yankees 3 Twins 0
Angels 3 Red Sox 2

Cards 3 Dodgers 2
Rockies 3 Phillies 2

Yankees 4 Angels 2
Rockies 4 Cards 3

Yankees 4 Rockies 0
   5. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3343610)
As I had the Twins in the other thread, here are my predictions again...

Red Sox 3 Angels 2
Yankees 3 Twins 1

Cardinals 3 Dodgers 2
Phillies 3 Rockies 0

Red Sox 4 Yankees 3
Cardinals 4 Phillies 2

Red Sox 4 Cardinals 2

FWIW, my q'n'd log5 numbers also have the Red Sox / Angels and Phillies / Rockies as a toss, with the Yankees as massive favorites and the Dodgers as moderate favorites.
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:02 PM (#3343614)
Twins over Yankees

I like you.


I BELIEVE!

Its more wishful thinking than anything. Obviously the Yanks look heads and tails better than the Twins. But that Metrodome does not want to go down without a fight.
   7. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:04 PM (#3343617)
Yankees 3 Twins 0
Angels 3 Red Sox 2
Cardinals 3 Dodgers 1
Phillies 3 Rockies 0

For what it's worth I think there is a real chance that the Angels/Red Sox series takes its place alongside the great five game series with Houston/Philly '80 and New York/Seattle '95 to name a couple. I think it's a compelling, somewhat nasty matchup with two extremely good teams.

Yankees 4 Red Sox 1
Cardinals 4 Phillies 2

Yankees 4 Cardinals 2
   8. jmurph Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:04 PM (#3343618)
Yanks 3-0
Angels 3-2

Cards 3-0
Phillies 3-1

Yanks 4-2
Cards 4-2

Yanks 4-2; jmurph sad
   9. Guapo Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:08 PM (#3343626)
Twins over Yankees

I had the Twins winning in the other thread. Here's what I foresee happening.

Yankees win Games 1 and 2 easily.

Yankees take late inning lead into Game 3- then something screwy related to the Metrodome occurs. Flyballs get lost in the roof, balls start bouncing all over the field, keying an amazing Twins comeback to keep their season alive.

Game 4- Twins fans show up and go bonkers. Sabathia is rocked and A-Rod goes 0 for 4 and commits 2 errors. Twins win easily.

Game 5- Facing enormous pressure, the Yankees start A.J. Burnett in this must-win game. Need I say more? Sometime around the 7th inning, Fox cameras catch Jorge Posada choking Joe Giradi in the Yankees dugout.

Yes, I am a Yankees fan.
   10. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:09 PM (#3343628)
I wonder if there's a way to do a little park-adjusting on these figures. The Rockies, for example, get the edge in triples, and Coors Field is a good triples park, while they lose out in shutouts. Coors is of course a horrible park for shutouts. Both teams had two road shutouts, but the Phillies get a big advantage here by out-shutouting the Rockies at home, 3-0.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:09 PM (#3343630)
Yankees 3 Twins 0
Angels 3 Red Sox 2
Cardinals 3 Dodgers 1
Phillies 3 Rockies 0

For what it's worth I think there is a real chance that the Angels/Red Sox series takes its place alongside the great five game series with Houston/Philly '80 and New York/Seattle '95 to name a couple. I think it's a compelling, somewhat nasty matchup with two extremely good teams.

Yankees 4 Red Sox 1
Cardinals 4 Phillies 2


I think if the losing team advances to the ALCS, it will undeniably go down as one of the most memorable. ;-)
   12. The cushions are crowded for Edmundo Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:13 PM (#3343642)
out-shutouting
I love how English grows as a language.
   13. GuyM Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:19 PM (#3343653)
For the World Series itself, different rules seem to apply.

It's not the WS, per se, but the difference in league strengths. For the past decade or so, the AL has been a much stronger league. So to compare the AL champs' stats to those of the NL champs, you should first adjust for the quality of the competition. Otherwise, the NL team will tend to look more competitive than it really is.
   14. puck Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:26 PM (#3343663)
Why do people think the Phillies will sweep the Rockies?
   15. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:29 PM (#3343667)
Why do people think the Phillies will sweep the Rockies?

Colorado is west of the Mississippi.
   16. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:37 PM (#3343679)
Why do people think the Phillies will sweep the Rockies?
-Far superior frontline starting pitching
-got bored of picking 3-2 series
   17. puck Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3343687)
Do the Phillies have a strong bullpen advantage? The 2nd half CO pen was almost completely different from the group that started the season. The park adjusted 2nd half CO pen ERA is almost identical to the Phillies' pen's season ERA. Naturally, the guys who actually made the post-season roster are better than that. However, perhaps the Phillies have made similar adjustments.
   18. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3343696)
-Far superior frontline starting pitching


Maybe. Going by this year alone, the Phillies project to be starting pitchers with ERA+s of 126-99-146-106, while the Rockies will have 130-108-104-111. That's probably an edge to the Phillies, but not a huge one.

What worries me about the Phillies is that they'll start three lefties. At this point, Tulowitzki is the Rockies' only big righthanded bat.
   19. flournoy Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3343697)
Dodgers 3 Cardinals 2
Rockies 3 Phillies 1
Angels 3 Red Sox 1
Twins 3 Yankees 0

Dodgers 4 Rockies 2
Angels 4 Twins 3

Dodgers 4 Angels 2
   20. Rusty Priske Posted: October 07, 2009 at 03:56 PM (#3343709)
Yankees 3 Twins 0
Angels 3 Red Sox 0 (Biggest 'surprise' series)
Phillies 3 Rockies 1
Cardinals 3 Dodgers 2 (Best Series)

Angels 4 Yankees 3
Phillies 4 Cardinals 1

Angels 4 Phillies 2
   21. puck Posted: October 07, 2009 at 04:06 PM (#3343721)
-Far superior frontline starting pitching

Maybe...That's probably an edge to the Phillies, but not a huge one.


The Phillies' starters probably worry me a bit more than Tom. Hamels and Lee have "shut down" stuff. The Rockies' guys after Ubaldo don't really have that. I'm a little worried that this could turn out like those late-season road San Francisco series.

I'd still be surprised and disappointed at a sweep.

At this point, Tulowitzki is the Rockies' only big righthanded bat.


Have you noticed that since Helton's 2004/2005 power outage, he turns into Luis Castillo when he's batting against lefties? I added it up once and 2006-2009, Helton's something like .375 OBP/.355 SLG against lefties.
   22. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 07, 2009 at 04:08 PM (#3343726)
Red Sox
Yankees
Dodgers
Phillies

Dodgers
Yankees

Dodgers
   23. Guapo Posted: October 07, 2009 at 04:09 PM (#3343729)
BOS over LAA (3-0)
MIN over NYY (3-2) (I have a bad feeling about this)

PHI over COL (3-1)
LAD over STL (3-2)

BOS over MIN (4-3)
LAD over PHI (4-1)

LAD over BOS (4-2) aka "Manny and Torre's Revenge"
   24. It's just Steve Posted: October 07, 2009 at 05:20 PM (#3343803)
Red Sox over Angels (4)
Yankees over Twins (5)

Phillies over Rockies (3)
Cardinals over Dodgers (4)

Red Sox over Yankees (7)
Cardinals over Phillies (5)

Cardinals over Red Sox (6)
   25. PepTech Posted: October 07, 2009 at 05:28 PM (#3343814)
Yankees (4)
Angels (5)

Rockies (4)
Cards (3)

Yankees (5) (dammit)
Cards (6)

Cards (7)
   26. Quaker Posted: October 07, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3344179)
Philly (4)
Dodgers (4)
Yankees (4)
Angels (5)

Angels (6)
Phillies (7)

Phillies (7)
   27. fra paolo Posted: October 08, 2009 at 12:06 AM (#3344507)
Otherwise, the NL team will tend to look more competitive than it really is.

The problem is that two of the three reversals during 2004-8 have been the NL team (St Louis, Philadelphia) beating the AL team (heavily favoured Detroit, marginally favoured Tampa Bay). The quality of the AL only applies in the case of Boston over St Louis in 2004.

I have a hypothesis, and I'm going to try and work through data before the World Series starts and come back with a 'What works in the World Series' study.

The specifics look to me to get to fluctuate-y to say a lot about individual categories.

Just eyeballing the fluctuations (I have year-to-year figures) leads me to think that there are upper and lower limits involved. In other words, as we get more data, we will be able to eliminate some categories (eg, Doubles) from consideration.
   28. philistine Posted: October 08, 2009 at 09:20 AM (#3344768)
My gut predictions would follow paolo's science with the possible exception of Angels vs Red Sox which I'd have to toss a coin for. It has nothing to do with the fact that the other three picks of his won game 1 yesterday (honest), more that those winning teams seem better than the opposition.

It gets more difficult in the Championship Series, as it should. Here goes anyway:

Phillies
Dodgers
Red Sox (the coin was heads)
Yankees

Phillies
Yankees

Yankees
   29. Srul Itza Posted: October 09, 2009 at 02:27 AM (#3345626)
as we go back to the 1950s for a Dodgers vs Yankees World Series


Why so far back? In the five years from 1977 through 1981, the Yankees and Dodgers played in 3 World Series.
   30. Rusty Priske Posted: October 13, 2009 at 12:31 PM (#3350726)
Yankees 3 Twins 0
Angels 3 Red Sox 0 (Biggest 'surprise' series)
Phillies 3 Rockies 1
Cardinals 3 Dodgers 2 (Best Series)


I got 3 out of the 4 series EXACTLY right! (The fourth was sepctacularly wrong, however.)


Next up, I'll stick with Angels over Yankees in 7 but with the Dodgers in, I will say Phillies in 6, instead of 5.

Still the Angels over the Phillies in 6 for the WS.
   31. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:00 PM (#3350736)
It's not the WS, per se, but the difference in league strengths. For the past decade or so
For the past decade or so? Wow, that's growing.

For the past decade or so (this century), the WS has split: NL, AL, NL, AL, AL, NL, AL, NL.

Yes, that is a delightfully selected endpoint, but "for the last decade or so", the WS is evenly decided. So, if the WS is "different" it seems that some mythical "AL is so much stronger" doesn't work in the WS, and so I don't know if "adjusting for league strength" is warranted, or even makes sense.
   32. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:14 PM (#3350744)
Niec work, fra, you nailed it. OTOH, I think you did take the home team in all the series...
   33. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:35 PM (#3350773)
Yes, that is a delightfully selected endpoint, but "for the last decade or so", the WS is evenly decided. So, if the WS is "different" it seems that some mythical "AL is so much stronger" doesn't work in the WS, and so I don't know if "adjusting for league strength" is warranted, or even makes sense.

Well, here are the last five years of interleague play results:

Year AL NL
2005 136 116
2006 154 98
2007 137 115
2008 149 103
2009 137 114
Total 713 546

That's a .569 winning percentage, and that recent AL superiority is no myth. To argue against that you have to go back past 2005, not to mention write off the last 21 years of All-Star games, where the AL is 18-3-1.

Oh, and in the last five World Series, the AL has won 14 of 22 games, including three sweeps.
   34. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:50 PM (#3350781)
To argue against that you have to go back past 2005
Perhaps you aren't familiar with what a "decade" is.
   35. Jeff K. Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:50 PM (#3350783)
not to mention write off the last 21 years of All-Star games

All other points aside for a moment, are we not mentioning this because it's obvious it should never have been on the books (in order to be written off) in the first place?
   36. bunyon Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:57 PM (#3350789)
The AL's #### doesn't work in the playoffs.
   37. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 01:57 PM (#3350790)
It's 2006 that turned the tide. Through 2005, the NL had won 9 more IL games. One could argue that it "started" in 2005, but that's not remotely close to a decade.
   38. Jeff K. Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:03 PM (#3350800)
The AL's #### doesn't work in the playoffs.

Someone care to check home-field records in the WS (adjusted for relative qualities of team, of course) for the last 15 years or so? Because I imagine you'd find at least a little evidence that this isn't really a joke, and that NL teams win more of their home games (no DH) than they otherwise should.
   39. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:06 PM (#3350805)
that NL teams win more of their home games (no DH) than they otherwise should.
And vice versa? I'd think that the DH advantage is larger than the pitcher-hitting advantage.
   40. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:09 PM (#3350810)
Since I never argued the "decade" bit, I have no problem with saying that the AL's marked superiority (713-546, .569) in interleague play only goes back to 2005. The All-Star gap goes back a lot longer than that, and IMO when it's that lopsided it can't be brushed aside, but obviously the interleague results give us a far larger sample size.

Of course all this doesn't mean a whole lot in a short series, since it's two teams and not two leagues. And on paper the Dodgers have a huge pitching edge over either of the AL teams, even allowing for league difference. So as a predictor in a World Series, the AL's superiority doesn't help us much more today than the NL's superiority did from the mid-50's through the mid-70's.
   41. Jeff K. Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:10 PM (#3350811)
And vice versa? I'd think that the DH advantage is larger than the pitcher-hitting advantage.

It's not the pitcher-hitting advantage that's most key. It's the not-having-a-DH disadvantage, most highlighted on teams with true DHs. If the Sox make the WS they have to both juggle half the lineup and then deal with the nightmare that is "David Ortiz, fielding man" and deal with a pitcher hitting. In contrast, an NL team in the AL park just has to tell its best guy on the bench (and it's not like they're stuck roster-wise and end up with 6 slap-hitting MIF) "Okay, you pinch-hit 4 times this game instead of 1."
   42. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:26 PM (#3350822)
Since I never argued the "decade" bit,
You argued againt my statements which are based on the decade comment, so yes, you did.
   43. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:28 PM (#3350823)
and IMO when it's that lopsided it can't be brushed aside, but obviously the interleague results give us a far larger sample size.
Right, and like other analyses, when we have the large sample, the ASG *can* be brushed away, and thus is from 1997 to 2005.
   44. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:42 PM (#3350834)
Since I never argued the "decade" bit,

You argued againt my statements which are based on the decade comment, so yes, you did.


That wasn't my intention, and anyway, I explicitly referred to the interleague results from 2005-2009 when I made my case for AL superiority.

The All-Star gap goes back a lot longer than that, and IMO when it's that lopsided it can't be brushed aside, but obviously the interleague results give us a far larger sample size.

Right, and like other analyses, when we have the large sample, the ASG *can* be brushed away, and thus is from 1997 to 2005.


Well, if you're trying to say that for the past decade the historical results are murkier, that's one thing. But if you're trying to say that 2005-2009 results shouldn't be weighted over those from 1997-2004, that's little more than a way of evading the two leagues' relative current strength, which is what the whole point (at least my point) is about.
   45. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 02:51 PM (#3350845)
Andy I am not saying that. I am saying the AL recent superiority isn't "a decade or so". It's very recent phenomenon.
   46. GuyM Posted: October 13, 2009 at 03:06 PM (#3350857)
Wow, Chris, you sure know how to pick a nit. I threw out the "decade" comment because I was too lazy to check when the AL superiority emerged. If you want to say it only applies for 2005-2009, that's fine. From 2000-2004, the AL won interleague 3 times, the NL once, and one tie. But the overall AL edge was small. The AL talent advantage may have been a bit larger than the record indicates just by chance -- after all, it seems unlikely this advantage appeared suddenly in just one season -- but I don't care enough to research the 2000-2004 stats.

The important point is that when league strengths differ, Vinay's method should take account of that rather than just comparing stats which came under differing levels of competition. If you were trying to estimate the likelihood of a AAA team beating an MLB team, you wouldn't just compare the regulare season strikeout rates of the two pitching staffs, right?

And when you refer to "mythical 'AL is so much stronger,'" you aren't seriously questioning whether the AL has been better over the past 5 years are you?
   47. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: October 13, 2009 at 03:13 PM (#3350862)
Andy I am not saying that. I am saying the AL recent superiority isn't "a decade or so". It's very recent phenomenon.

I'm okay with that. No harm, no foul.
   48. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 03:14 PM (#3350863)
First, I don't consider it a "nit". You are a VERY respected poster wrt research, so what seems to be a throwaway for you will balloon. Same with Tango. Sorry, but with great power comes great responsibility.

Second, my quibble is with the "so much". It's a little stronger, and the top teams may not be at all. the difference is small enough that these aren't likely to matter in the WS.

It was the whole "decade" thing.
   49. GuyM Posted: October 13, 2009 at 03:36 PM (#3350884)
I somehow doubt that a comment which had elicited zero responses for six days (until yours today) was going to unleash a tidal wave of misunderstanding re: historical league strengths. But in any case, point taken. FYI: MGL did a nice 3-part series on this at THT in 2006 -- from his analysis, it seems likely the AL talent edge emerged in 2004 (but probably impossible to say precisely).

I don't think there's any reason to think the advantage is any less at the WS level. The AL payroll disparity is slightly larger than the NL's, even accounting for the higher average salary in the AL. You'd have to check, but I think you will find that the disparity in win% in the AL in recent years has been at least as large in the AL, probably larger. So if anything, the AL likely distributes its talent less equally than the NL, and so the AL talent advantage may be magnified in the postseason.
   50. fra paolo Posted: October 13, 2009 at 04:21 PM (#3350912)
Vinay's method should take account of that rather than just comparing stats which came under differing levels of competition.

Only if the results of prediction vs outcome cannot be explained except by taking the apparent disparity into account. Based on my preliminary research, I'm not sure that this is the case. If anything, at first glance the AL's superiority seems to have little influence on the outcome of the World Series.

It's the not-having-a-DH disadvantage, most highlighted on teams with true DHs.

This may be more important, but not necessarily in the way Jeff K is arguing. I'm not ready yet to commit to any hypothesis. Again, at first glance, it does seem that 'run prevention', which appears powerful in the LDS and LCS, has less influence on the World Series. That implies the DH rule gives an advantage to AL teams. But there could be another explanation, which I haven't formulated yet. The problem is that NL teams are more successful in the World Series than they ought to be.
   51. Joe Dimino Posted: October 13, 2009 at 04:34 PM (#3350924)
So what does the system say for the LCS's, for those of us too lazy/busy to figure it out on our own . . .
   52. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 04:36 PM (#3350926)
GuyM - people don't comment on things that confirm their position. Most people agree the AL has an advantage now. Later they'll say "a decade". Why? I read it somewhere and Guy wrote it, so it must be true.

We're good on that.

WRT the MGL study, the Beltre taint has me concerned about that.
   53. Chris Dial Posted: October 13, 2009 at 04:36 PM (#3350927)
Andy,
agreed.
   54. fra paolo Posted: October 13, 2009 at 04:40 PM (#3350931)
So what does the system say for the LCS's

Re-read the final paragraph! Or are you demanding a complete breakdown of advantages?
   55. GuyM Posted: October 13, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3350942)
Only if the results of prediction vs outcome cannot be explained except by taking the apparent disparity into account.

I would disagree. You have only 14 WS outcomes to work with here (assuming you're looking only at post 1994 postseasons). Your goal should not be "explaining" those, because there's so much luck involved. If you believe these variables are telling you something real based on the larger sample of playoff results (I'm agnostic), then the logical thing to do for the WS is to compare the teams as accurately as you can on those same dimensions. So actually you need two adjustments: 1) normalize these by league (for example, strikeout rates are higher in NL because pitchers hit), and then 2) adjust for overall league quality.
   56. Jeff K. Posted: October 13, 2009 at 05:14 PM (#3350959)
This may be more important, but not necessarily in the way Jeff K is arguing. I'm not ready yet to commit to any hypothesis. Again, at first glance, it does seem that 'run prevention', which appears powerful in the LDS and LCS, has less influence on the World Series. That implies the DH rule gives an advantage to AL teams. But there could be another explanation, which I haven't formulated yet. The problem is that NL teams are more successful in the World Series than they ought to be.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not saying that what I said is 100% certain to be correct, but I think this drastically overstates the case that can be made from the numbers above. There is no on-field rule that applies in a stadium in October that doesn't apply to the same one in May. Given that, inputs with dramatically different run predicting ability/causation in the WS vs. the regular season should warrant a very close examination, and "run prevention" is so fundamental a piece that there's almost zero chance of my accepting numbers from small-sample size WS histories that aren't exceedingly close to regular season numbers. Just like if a guy has 1000 PAs against lefties and sucks but then hits HR in 3 consecutive PA, I'm not breaking that out from the 1000.

The first thing I would look at there would be the decision to use minimum splits, which not only further reduces sample size, but very well may mask what is a sizable and measurable effect of run prevention that has rapidly diminishing marginal returns. That would not be at all hard to believe, especially in short series of games, and would match the numbers.
   57. fra paolo Posted: October 13, 2009 at 10:17 PM (#3351337)
I should have used 'suggesting' rather than 'arguing'. I didn't mean to imply that Jeff was committed to a hypothesis.

The evidence available is limited in quantity, and therefore all that we have learned so far suffers from a tremendous handicap. The problem with being too sceptical is that it does seem to have a predictive power based on experience over the last three postseasons. Is that significant yet? Not mathematically, but for practical purposes I'm inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.

However, it is clear that using this predictor as I have done above is no better than flipping a coin when it comes to the World Series. Already, however, I've detected two odd consistencies about World Series winners, but I'm not yet convinced it's meaningful, because the research is still very preliminary.
   58. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: October 22, 2009 at 04:43 AM (#3361809)
Gee, you guys didn't nail this. Not at all. Is there a similar one for the championship series'?

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