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— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox

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   1. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:42 AM (#2531036)
Also, I don't see a really good reason why I should give a #### about the rest of the games this year if the management doesn't. Why should I watch NESN or go to Fenway? To see the new and interesting ways the team can find to lose?
   2. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2531046)
Gagne has personally blown 4 games since coming over in August. It's hard to imagine a worse result of a deadline trade, and the season's not even over.
   3. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:48 AM (#2531049)
And where was Okajima? Did his bad appearance against the Yankees move him down to mop-up duty?
   4. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:55 AM (#2531067)
Yeah, where's those adorable little Pollyanna-Fuzzybunny twins, Bivvo And Biifo now? Huh? Laying low, that's what!!!

PANTS PISSERS!!!
   5. Guapo Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:56 AM (#2531075)
Looking forward to hearing from. . . the Yankees fans who have come on ST to deride the “pants pissers,”

*punches timecard* Mornin', Ralph.
   6. HowardMegdal Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:59 AM (#2531083)
Let me say this. Pitching Clay Buchholz down the stretch beats the hell out of pitching Brian Lawrence down the stretch.
   7. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:59 AM (#2531084)
Hey Guapo,

How are you? Is it still whining to point out that the Red Sox don't seem to be focusing on winning games?
   8. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:00 AM (#2531085)
Another year, another late season collapse.

I said two months ago that this team would need another bat, and seeing situation after situation where easy out after easy out comes up to bat with no relief in sight... it's maddening to watch.
   9. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:00 AM (#2531087)
Let me say this. Pitching Clay Buchholz down the stretch beats the hell out of pitching Brian Lawrence down the stretch.


How about not pitching him for 13 days, then pitching him? Okay, it still beats Lawrence, but not by as much.
   10. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:00 AM (#2531088)
Hey, I've been firmly entrenched in the optimists camp, but I was working under the assumption that Sox management was, you know, not going to actively try to give the division title away.

Nonetheless, I still think they'll win it.
   11. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:04 AM (#2531099)
Nonetheless, I still think they'll win it.

I can't see it. The Orioles are playing so badly right that they could lose to the '62 Mets, even though most of those players are probably dead. And that's who the Yankees have 4 more freakin' games with. You can pretty much give the MFYs 4 wins right there. And another game with KC to boot.

About the only hope we have is Texas and Toronto.
   12. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:04 AM (#2531101)
I "still think they'll win it" is a far cry from the "anyone who thinks the Yankees are catching the Red Sox is a whiny idiot" meme that most the optimists (not you) have been spewing.
   13. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:05 AM (#2531104)
Nonetheless, I still think they'll win it.


I hate this Sox team, no killer instinct at all. And I notice that B-Pro has failed to update their vaunted ELO Playoff odds.
   14. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:05 AM (#2531106)
Dear Red Sox fans,

This is my solemn promise: if the Yankees win the AL East, I will not taunt you. I will gloat outside of ST and the Sox Chatter, but I will not taunt. I will be a better man (well, in that ONE way) than those who saw fit to taunt Yankees fans in May.

Can't say the same for some of my friends, though.
   15. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:05 AM (#2531107)
Lock for the playoffs. Should the Division matter as much as getting healthy, being rested and setting up the rotaion?
   16. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:06 AM (#2531108)
About the only hope we have is Texas and Toronto.



???
   17. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:07 AM (#2531111)
Lock for the playoffs. Should the Division matter as much as getting healthy, being rested and setting up the rotaion?


How is letting Gagne lose the game tonight getting anyone healthy? How is letting Ellsbury face the lefty getting anyone healthy?
   18. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:07 AM (#2531117)
Texas and Toronto are the remaining Yankee opponenets that stand some chance of beating them, admittedly not a great chance but better than the O's or Royals for damn sure.
   19. Dan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:08 AM (#2531119)
Honestly I never thought the Yankees would catch the Red Sox, but then again I also never expected Francona to leave Okajima in after allowing 2 homeruns, and leave Gagné in after walking the bases loaded with a 1 run lead with Papelbon available. I can understand leaving him in to face Stairs, but once he throws 4 straight balls to take it from 0-2 to a walk, how can you leave him in there? Indefensible. Not to even go into leaving him in AFTER walking in the tying run. Completely and utterly incomprehensible. I've never seen anything so retarded in my whole life.
   20. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:08 AM (#2531120)
I never taunted the NYY fans this year. I assumed they'd start getting healthy and crushing the oppostion, and they did. Go back and look.

I got on their cases about 2004 a bunch of times, but c'mon, we're talking a lifetime over here.
   21. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:09 AM (#2531126)
Dear Red Sox fans,

This is my solemn promise: if the Yankees win the AL East, I will not taunt you, I will not gloat.

However, if the Yankees advance to the World Series, I will taunt loudly and mercilessly.
   22. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2531129)
And another game with KC to boot.
Wait, what? Yanks have 4 against the O's, 4 against the Jays, and 3 against the D-Rays.

Boston has the D-Rays, A's (no Haren) and Twins (no Santana).
   23. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2531131)
That's now 22-25 in one-run games. Only the woeful Orioles and White Sox have more one-run losses.
   24. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2531134)
Lock for the playoffs. Should the Division matter as much as getting healthy, being rested and setting up the rotaion?


Well we see where management falls on that question. To me and a bunch of us here who have seen the Sox finish second to the MFYs too frequently in the last 10 years, even in a World Series victory season, I think a division title is coveted more.
   25. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2531135)
You mean TB, AG.
   26. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:11 AM (#2531137)
Oops. I was looking at Baltimore's schedule. Because I have to listen to their games. My God they're terrible right now. Good thing the Oriole radio guys have a sense of humor.
   27. Textbook Editor Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:11 AM (#2531140)
The Globe was reporting that Wakefield will start in Tampa on Sunday and Schilling on Tuesday on extra rest, which apparently will also mean he'll wait around less for his start in the playoffs... to which I am resisting saying PLAYOFFS? PLAYOFFS? only because with a WC magic # of 4 I think that we are close to being guaranteed at least a WC slot... which at least makes it a better situation than the Mets, who conceivably *could* miss the playoffs if they keep losing.
   28. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:12 AM (#2531144)
I really don't know enough about Ellsbury, Darren. My instinct is Gagne should be pitching in some key situations to evaluate his post-season usage. I don't think that is unreasonable where you have basically clinched, given the lead over Detroit.

The Yanks still put Farnsworth in play. I think that is less defensible.
   29. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:13 AM (#2531146)
The funny thing about the Papelbon decision was that just a couple days ago, Papelbon was brought in with 0 outs in the 8th. Today they refuse to go to him until the 9th. Funny if it weren't so annoying.
   30. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:14 AM (#2531151)
That's now 22-25 in one-run games. Only the woeful Orioles and White Sox have more one-run losses.


And almost all of the losses for 6 weeks now have been painful rib kick types. Is that a good sign?
   31. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:15 AM (#2531155)
Is Gags pitching for a spot on the postseason roster? Maybe Tito wanted to see what he could offer in a big situation. The answer: not much.

Also, I don't see a really good reason why I should give a #### about the rest of the games this year if the management doesn't. Why should I watch NESN or go to Fenway? To see the new and interesting ways the team can find to lose?

I agree with Darren. One can stretch to think of reasons why the Sox don't care about the outcome of these games. But the way they make their money (well, one of the ways) is by NESN knowing that the Red Sox games guarantee a certain number of eyeballs, which they sell to advertisers. If the everygame product they put on the field is not everything it could be, Sox management is screwing their broadcast partners and thumbing their noses at the people who paid to attend the games.
   32. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:16 AM (#2531161)
Isn't home field advantage and choosing your schedule more important than putting Gagne into a 1-run game and leaving him in until it's a -2 run game? If it was a test to see if he could be trusted, he had failed by the time he walked the bases loaded.

And can someone explain what's wrong with Okajima?
   33. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:17 AM (#2531163)
Also, what the hell is up with Ramirez? Wasn't he supposed to be back by now?

He pulled the same #### last year, but I didn't care because the season was a lost cause by then anyway.

I'm suddenly glad that contract runs out next year.
   34. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:17 AM (#2531164)
The Yanks still put Farnsworth in play. I think that is less defensible.

Don't look now, Scori, but the Professor has been generally very good recently.
   35. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:18 AM (#2531172)
22-25 in one-run games and a -4 or -5 in the pythag--and this is with one of the best bullpens in the majors. How is this accomplished? Sheer stupidity? Horrible luck? Both?
   36. Dr. Vaux Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:18 AM (#2531173)
Yes, the Yankees are clearly going to win the World Series. The good thing about that is that they're at least a good team, unlike some of the other recent winners.
   37. aleskel Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:19 AM (#2531176)
Don't look now, Scori, but the Professor has been generally very good recently.

if you mean "make the Yankees use Mo when they start the 9th with a 5-run lead" good, than you're dead on
   38. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:21 AM (#2531182)
And almost all of the losses for 6 weeks now have been painful rib kick types. Is that a good sign?
I guess the stathead answer is yes, because of run differential and whatnot.

I dunno. The Red Sox are quite obviously a very good team. I don't think anyone is particularly skeptical of that. What we hate is what's actually happened, which has been painful to watch. It's mainly been poor play and bad timing, combined with a decision from upper management to stop caring particularly much about the regular season. It really, really sucks.

Of course, all the Red Sox and Yankees have to do is play reasonable baseball down the stretch, and Boston finally wins a division and we're all happy again. As we've seen, though, the fact that this is relatively likely in no way means it's certain.
   39. Dan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:21 AM (#2531184)
It's -5 to pythag after tonight, Darren.
   40. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:22 AM (#2531186)
Normally I will defend Grady Little type mismanagement by Francona to the death, but you guys have convinced me he should go NOW. Hire McKeon or Lou Lamoriello.

In all seriousness, I can't defend the particulars but the Sox are a lock and very formidable. Keep the faith, and I hope my team sees you in the ALCS.
   41. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:22 AM (#2531187)
Don't look now, Scori, but the Professor has been generally very good recently.


So has every ####### Yankee. Mussina was dropped from the rotation and got his spot back because of injury--he hasn't given up a run since. (This is class Torre.) Clemens was pronounced dead and still threw 94.

Molina's hitting .304 .327 .457 with the Yanks. Chamberlain and Kennedy start the year in A ball and are handed key jobs down the stretch. They of course dominate without so much as a stumble.

The Yanks played like crap for the first 1/3 of the year. They don't deserve to even be in the playoffs but the Tigers and Red Sox have handed it to them.
   42. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:23 AM (#2531190)
22-25 in one-run games and a -4 or -5 in the pythag--and this is with one of the best bullpens in the majors. How is this accomplished? Sheer stupidity? Horrible luck? Both?

Their bullpen suddenly isn't one of the best in the majors. They've given away more games in the last two months than I can count, to go with some bad breaks.
   43. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:24 AM (#2531198)
"The Professor" is a mind-bogglingly dumb nickname. First, it's simply taking a character from a mildly hip tv show and transposing the names. Second, Jack Vincennes gave him the utterly awesome nickname "Dr. Tightpants". We may be losing the division, but at least we didn't lose the greatest nickname in the history of Baseball Primer.
   44. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:24 AM (#2531199)
The Red Sox are quite obviously a very good team.

And every day they look more and more like a medicore team that had a great April/May.
   45. Dan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2531202)
The Red Sox would still have one of the best bullpens if Francona would actually use Delcarmen and Papelbon
   46. Dr. Vaux Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2531204)
I always think of Farnsworth as Dr Tightpants. Or actually, maybe it was Captain Tightpants.

Edit: I mean, of course, ever since Vincennes coined the name; I wasn't claiming to have thought of it myself!
   47. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2531205)
The Run Fairy is a better name. Farnsworth is a legitimate heir to it.
   48. Textbook Editor Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:26 AM (#2531206)
I have only one defense for the "Red Sox don't care if they win the division" philosophy--and at this point I do think it is an organizational philosophy: I am guessing/hoping that Bill James has done a comprehensive study of all playoff teams in the history of baseball, and divided it between (a) teams who had to go in fighting to the last to get in, and (b) teams who got in but had the ability to get everyone healthy before the playoffs... and that this study conclusively showed that teams in the (b) category fared better/won more postseason games/series EVEN IF THEY DID NOT HAVE HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE.

If this is their theory, well then I suppose you could say the goal is to win the WS. The division is nice and all, but getting into the playoffs is all that matters, and they've basically done that, so now they need to go about figuring out who's on the roster, who will get used and how, etc. (This is the only defense for leaving Gagne in, BTW--this was a test, and thankfully he failed, lest we be lulled into a false sense that "Gagne's fine!")
   49. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:26 AM (#2531209)
Their bullpen suddenly isn't one of the best in the majors. They've given away more games in the last two months than I can count, to go with some bad breaks.


Yes, but for the balance of the year--the one in which they've put up the 22-25 in one run games and -5 in the pythag--it's still one of the best, if not the best. It's not like they just came back to earth from their 6-1 one-run record early on. It's that they totally went in the tank in 1-run games while their pen mostly pitched great.
   50. Chip Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:27 AM (#2531214)
BJ obviously did a study that said the '06 Tigers and the '00 Yankees were the best comps for this team, and the order went down to make sure the September record was crap, so they could then turn it on in the playoffs.

Textbook slips with the same thought.
   51. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:29 AM (#2531216)
The Yanks played like crap for the first 1/3 of the year. They don't deserve to even be in the playoffs but the Tigers and Red Sox have handed it to them.

Well, Bud Selig proposed it, and the owners approved it for the 1995 season. I'll say it again - a zero-sum race between these two teams at this time of year would be stupendously better.

Molina's hitting .304 .327 .457 with the Yanks. Chamberlain and Kennedy start the year in A ball and are handed key jobs down the stretch. They of course dominate without so much as a stumble.


You're cherry-picking. Hughes came with more fanfare than either of the other pitchers, and while he may turn out to be a stud, his final season line this year will likely be south of replacement-level. Same with Edwar Ramirez, though I have a suspicion that he'll be pretty useful in the postseason. Betemit has hit poorly enough that he lost his spot to Dougie.
   52. aleskel Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:29 AM (#2531218)
They don't deserve to even be in the playoffs but the Tigers and Red Sox have handed it to them.

yeah, they just have the best record in the majors in the 2nd half. How dare they.
   53. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:30 AM (#2531219)
Yeah, where's those adorable little Pollyanna-Fuzzybunny twins, Bivvo And Biifo now? Huh? Laying low, that's what!!!

PANTS PISSERS!!!


I apologize for playing an intramural soccer game. I'll never do it again.

If I may crosspost from the game thread since this is where everyone relocated too...

I just really don't understand how you all can be so certain that we're going to lose when we're still up by 2.5 ####### games with only 10 games left in the season for us (11 for the Yankees). I thought all this whiny ######## went away after we won the ####### World Series, but apparently not.
   54. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:30 AM (#2531220)
I'll say it again - a zero-sum race between these two teams at this time of year would be stupendously better.

I guess the silver lining - the only one I could think of - would be that Francona would have been canned after last season if this system were in place.
   55. Chip Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:30 AM (#2531221)
Betemit has hit poorly enough that he lost his spot to Dougie.


Who has proceeded to hit way, way over his head since being handed the starts.
   56. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:31 AM (#2531225)
I am guessing/hoping that Bill James has done a comprehensive study of all playoff teams in the history of baseball, and divided it between (a) teams who had to go in fighting to the last to get in, and (b) teams who got in but had the ability to get everyone healthy before the playoffs... and that this study conclusively showed that teams in the (b) category fared better/won more postseason games/series EVEN IF THEY DID NOT HAVE HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE.


I cannot see how such a study would control for all the various factors that go into postseason success. For example, this team could have kept trying to win after the All-Star break and still been able set up their pitching in the last week of the season, which most teams who are fighting for their lives cannot do.

In other words, it sounds like just the kind of conclusion that the creator win shares would come to.
   57. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:33 AM (#2531235)
I guess the silver lining - the only one I could think of - would be that Francona would have been canned after last season if this system were in place.

Would the records be the same? Would desperation have made the Yankees play better, or maybe worse recently? Did the spectre of the Card give them subconscious "breathing room" to lose games at the beginning of the year?

Would the Red Sox have put the pedal to the metal in August/September if there was a realistic chance that they would be going home if they didn't hold off the Bombers?
   58. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:34 AM (#2531237)
I just really don't understand how you all can be so certain that we're going to lose when we're still up by 2.5 ####### games with only 10 games left in the season for us (11 for the Yankees). I thought all this whiny ######## went away after we won the ####### World Series, but apparently not.

Perhaps because we've been watching this team lately. They are flatlining at the moment.
   59. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:35 AM (#2531238)
I just really don't understand how you all can be so certain that we're going to lose when we're still up by 2.5 ####### games with only 10 games left in the season for us (11 for the Yankees). I thought all this whiny ######## went away after we won the ####### World Series, but apparently not.


Moving the goalposts a bit from 'we're winning the division, guaranteed.' All of a sudden is 'You shouldn't be SURE we're going to lose.' And I can't think of anyone except Wok who was in anyway sure we were going to lose. Most of the doubters have been saying that the division was still in play, something you steadfastly denied.
   60. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:37 AM (#2531239)
Would the records be the same?

Under the old system, the 2004 Sox are playing golf in October, the Comeback never happens, there's still a Curse, and the third place 2006 finish gets Francona sacked.
   61. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:37 AM (#2531240)
Yeah, Darren's right, Biff - I was expecting some righteous certainty. You've still got a good shot to be proven right. Why give up the ghost now and place the goalposts at the 30-yard line?

Also, why give the horse water that he doesn't know how to drink, and why eat Darren's cake when you already have it?
   62. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2531241)
Who has proceeded to hit way, way over his head since being handed the starts.


And who's only starting because of panic over a bad fielding game by Giambi. But all panic moves work for the Yanks.
   63. Hugh Jorgan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2531242)
I agree with Biff. We've still got the best record in baseball. Still the best pitching in the American league. All of you stop your effing whinging, I'd still rather have the lead then be 2 1/2 back with only 10 to play. I said in a post waaaay back that this is a 95-96 win team, if the MFY can beat that, then kudos to them. Besides with their overall pitching they aren't winning anything in the post season, either us, Cleveland or Anaheim will shut their arses down.
   64. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2531244)
Under the old system, the 2004 Sox are playing golf in October, the Comeback never happens, there's still a Curse, and the third place 2006 finish gets Francona sacked.

*thinks about it*

I can live with all of these things.
   65. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2531248)
By the way, the Yanks may lay down after clinching the WC. They may value rest more than the Division.
   66. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2531249)
Where in that post did I say I no longer think we're guaranteed to win the division? I'm not seeing it.
   67. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:41 AM (#2531256)
Also, I like Terry Francona. He's the best manager the Red Sox have had, at least since Jimy Williams started taking orders from the great gazoo, and probably since I was born.

He's a solid manager with a good relationship with his bosses. I wouldn't mess with that.
   68. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:41 AM (#2531260)
I can live with all of these things.

Even if it likely means one fewer ring* for your Yankees?

* Assuming Cleveland stays in the Yankees' division after 1995.
   69. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:41 AM (#2531261)
I agree with Biff.


Which Biff--the one who's certain we're going to win or the one who thinks we might not lose?

All of you stop your effing whinging, I'd still rather have the lead then be 2 1/2 back with only 10 to play.


Oh, the latter then.
   70. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:41 AM (#2531263)
I especially don't get the hand-wringing after losing to the Blue Jays. They always play us tough, this is nothing new.
   71. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:42 AM (#2531264)
By the way, the Yanks may lay down after clinching the WC. They may value rest more than the Division.
Torre's made it pretty clear they're going to try to win every single game the rest of the season.
   72. Hugh Jorgan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:43 AM (#2531270)
Biff, Darren et. al., we are winning the division. The MFY are going to Anaheim to get smacked, then Anaheim is coming to Boston to get smacked. Then whatever piss-ant team comes out of the NL, we'll take in 5 or 6 games max.
   73. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:43 AM (#2531271)
By the way, the Yanks may lay down after clinching the WC. They may value rest more than the Division.


How so? Replacing some of their $20 mil. starters with $20 mil bench players?

MCOA,

Francona's not a good manager.Let me add: if he has a good relationship with his bosses after the way he's handled this season, then it reflects badly on his bosses.
   74. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:44 AM (#2531274)
Even if it likely means one fewer ring* for your Yankees?

In seriousness, yes. That extra playoff series can be great, but the crucible of two good teams matching up 1-25 (and more), with fifth starter games counting in the standings the same as #1 starter games, with teams dramatically remaking themselves, with your team losing to bad teams and beating good teams has largely vanished from MLB.
   75. Answer Guy Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:45 AM (#2531275)
I especially don't get the hand-wringing after losing to the Blue Jays.

It's mostly about Eric Gagne, and the total of 4 runs in two games. I mean, if I'm an opposing pitcher/manager David Ortiz doesn't see a hittable pitch the whole game.

The Yankees, meanwhile, don't seem to have much trouble with the Jays.
   76. Hugh Jorgan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:45 AM (#2531276)
Which Biff--the one who's certain we're going to win or the one who thinks we might not lose?

The one who is certain! Its not like we are getting blown out. We are losing 1 run games. Games we will win easily once Manny and Youk come back.
   77. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:46 AM (#2531278)
See, Biff, that's the post I was expecting. #72 has it all - dead certainty, SoSH-clever nicknames, awesome chauvinism (there are, in the above scenario, also two other AL playoff squads) - but you instead went with a strawman pessimist who thinks the Red Sox are certain to lose. You started bashing from a position of weakness.
   78. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:48 AM (#2531280)
The MFY are going to Anaheim to get smacked, then Anaheim is coming to Boston to get smacked.
With the Tigers' loss, the playoff teams are pretty much set. But who plays who is about as far from being set as it can be.

Either the Yankees or BoSox could with the AL East. Any of the four teams could win HFA.

Nobody has any idea who they'll be playing in October right now.
   79. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:48 AM (#2531281)
Where in that post did I say I no longer think we're guaranteed to win the division? I'm not seeing it.


Biff, you were being chided because you had been deriding people for doubting the division was in the bank. You responded by saying that those people shouldn't be so sure that we were going to lose the division. Do you see how that could be read as backing off your original viewpoint?
   80. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:48 AM (#2531282)
"MFY" is SoSH-clever, while "The Professor" is mind-bogglingly dumb?
   81. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:48 AM (#2531283)
Even if it likely means one fewer ring* for your Yankees?


Actually, it starts with two fewer rings: 1996 and 2000. But then, it might get bumped back up if you replay the postseasons where the Yankees lost to wild card teams (2003, 04, 06).

Probably close to a push.

But this frigging race truly exposes how crappy the WC is. The Red Sox are clearly not as interested in winning the division title as a team should be come September.
   82. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:49 AM (#2531287)
And who's only starting because of panic over a bad fielding game by Giambi. But all panic moves work for the Yanks.


Actually he only started tonight because Giambi had a sore foot.
   83. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:50 AM (#2531289)
I still like our odds at this point. I don't like Francona going Grady Little with his pitchers, though.
   84. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:50 AM (#2531290)
MCOA,

Francona's not a good manager.Let me add: if he has a good relationship with his bosses after the way he's handled this season, then it reflects badly on his bosses.
His bosses obviously have ordered him to play it safe in September - or, rather, they've developed this September strategy together. He's not the one sitting Buchholz, certainly, or waiting forever to call up Ellsbury. I would argue he's also not the one in charge of the rotation's extra rest days, or the bullpen tryouts.

And Francona definitely is a good manager. You're wrong.
   85. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:51 AM (#2531292)
"MFY" is SoSH-clever, while "The Professor" is mind-bogglingly dumb?
"SOSH-clever" is not a compliment.
   86. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:51 AM (#2531295)
"MFY" is SoSH-clever, while "The Professor" is mind-bogglingly dumb?


Who said MFY is a good? It's right up there with the SOSH practice of referring to Yankee Stadium as "The Toilet." Get it--because toilets are yucky and so are the Yankees! Har har har, genius!
   87. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:51 AM (#2531296)
But this frigging race truly exposes how crappy the WC is. The Red Sox are clearly not as interested in winning the division title as a team should be come September.

The 2005 race, with what should have been an apocalyptic final week, really showed that to me. Instead of two very good teams doing everything they can to win the regular season, we saw two teams trying to out-rest each other.
   88. Hugh Jorgan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:53 AM (#2531300)
Agree with the positives about Francona. He's the best we've had for years and seems to have a good handle on the players. As #84 pointed out, some of these decisions cannot be only from his hand, I see upper management involved with this.
   89. Textbook Editor Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:54 AM (#2531302)
Brett Myers is doing his best Erik Gagne in the PHL-STL game... "pulling a Gagne" should just be the universal Red Sox reliever choke saying for the rest of the year.

I don't know how you'd control for all the variables, Darren, but my hunch is that what they may have looked at most is the "teams who were able to set up their pitching" vs. "teams who were NOT able to set up their pitching" because that sort of study would be easy enough to check out, even if it means a little less now that there's a DS and a CS before the WS... going to a Game 5 in a DS almost assures you having a less-than-optimal CS rotation set-up.

I do suspect that teams who were able to set up their pitching--as the Red Sox are clearly now trying to do--may have a better winning % than teams that were not able to, but really unless you sweep the ALDS, you can't set up the staff for the ALCS so the "edge" (if there was one) is kind of lost.

Like I said, I dunno if any of the above happened, I'm just hoping that it did because otherwise the team from the GM on down has no philosophy and thus just look like idiots.
   90. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:55 AM (#2531306)
And Francona definitely is a good manager. You're wrong.


I beg to differ. Francona is not good. Times infinity.

His bosses obviously have ordered him to play it safe in September - or, rather, they've developed this September strategy together. He's not the one sitting Buchholz, certainly, or waiting forever to call up Ellsbury. I would argue he's also not the one in charge of the rotation's extra rest days, or the bullpen tryouts.


I don't think all of those things are obvious. But I do think that the rest of the management is complicit in this. For example, they either decided that having a decent OF vs. the Yankees in August was not worth losing Lopez for a couple days or they let Francona decide it. Either way, it's on them to some degree.
   91. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:56 AM (#2531309)
The 2005 race, with what should have been an apocalyptic final week, really showed that to me. Instead of two very good teams doing everything they can to win the regular season, we saw two teams trying to out-rest each other.


No argument, though at least that year the teams had to play through until the last week of the season, or until Cleveland imploded. The Sox have been in some form of cruise control for quite some time.

And in my (piss-poor) defense, I only employ MFY on occasion since its simpler than typing out the Yankees, not because I think it's remotely clever.
   92. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:57 AM (#2531313)
Agree with the positives about Francona. He's the best we've had for years and seems to have a good handle on the players.


He's so good with the players that in 2005 we had to DFA an OF that we'd desperately need later.
   93. tfbg9 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:57 AM (#2531314)
And Francona definitely is a good manager. You're wrong.


You're both wrong. He's a good drummer.
   94. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:57 AM (#2531315)

It's mostly about Eric Gagne, and the total of 4 runs in two games. I mean, if I'm an opposing pitcher/manager David Ortiz doesn't see a hittable pitch the whole game.
I guess I've gotta go be optimistic for a minute.

Did you watch the ballgames? Dustin McGowan had the second-best stuff of any pitcher the Red Sox have faced all year. He was painting the corners at 95, and he had way more movement on that fastball than should be legal in a nice country like Canada. His slider was devastating, and he threw a bunch of good curves, too. Burnett tonight had a nuclear curveball, and sat 96.

What sucks about tonight's game is they got lucky, but blew it at the end.
   95. plink Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:58 AM (#2531317)
Hmmm.. I haven't been able to watch the last couple of games, but the recaps seem pretty depressing. But - I still think they'll win the division. Not only that, I think they'll have the best record in the majors at the end of the year.

It's still unclear, though, whether this team learns from its mistakes. Gagne had pitched pretty well recently, so I can kind of understand bringing and leaving him in. But it now *shouldn't* happen in the playoffs, no matter what.
   96. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 03:59 AM (#2531320)
McGowan is very tough every time the Yankees see him too. I think he's gonna go all Bedard on the league one of these years.

FWIW, I think the Sox are a stronger team with Francona in the dugout than with anyone else I can imagine.
   97. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 04:00 AM (#2531321)
Like I said, I dunno if any of the above happened, I'm just hoping that it did because otherwise the team from the GM on down has no philosophy and thus just look like idiots.


I hope that they are basing nothing on any goofy study by Bill James, and that they are doing everything they can to get Voros back in their employ.

And even if they have decided that it's the best thing to do, baseball-wise, they have to know what a PR disaster it would be to blow this lead to the Yanks. Going out in the first round, always a possibility, sits a lot better with the fans if you won the division than if you squandered a 14.5 game lead.
   98. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 19, 2007 at 04:02 AM (#2531326)
Darren, weren't you one of the ones who criticized playing Ortiz every day when the division looked completely locked? I remember others thinking that; I don't recall if you joined them.
   99. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 04:02 AM (#2531327)
What sucks about tonight's game is they got lucky, but blew it at the end.


To me what sucks is that they blew it while making it clear that they didn't care that much if they won. Like not at all.
   100. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 19, 2007 at 04:03 AM (#2531329)
That too.
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