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   1. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:36 AM (#1512024)
Waaay better then Bigbie. You kind of got the feeling somebidy like Epstein would recognize the value in Cruz Jr.

Anybody remember when Toronto traded for him and it was considered a steal?
   2. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:37 AM (#1512025)
How many OF's can the Sox cycle through their 40 man roster in a week?
   3. Darren Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:38 AM (#1512026)
Let's find out, Mitch!
   4. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:39 AM (#1512028)
So, Adam Hyzdu was DFA'd for Kapler.

Now 40-man spots have to be created for Cruz AND Papelbon.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:41 AM (#1512030)
Bono's even better than the real thing.
   6. tfbg9 Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:42 AM (#1512033)
Cruz is a halfway decent OF'er,right? Hits asa RHB passably...
   7. Urban Faber Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:42 AM (#1512034)
Anybody remember when Toronto traded for him and it was considered a steal?

In a deal that had Mike Timlin going the other way.
   8. JMM Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:43 AM (#1512035)
Well, he does have mysterious ways.
   9. philly Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:44 AM (#1512037)
Certainly a whole lot cheaper than Shoppach/Bigbie for a better player in 2005. Though I suppose it's possible that Bigbie blossoms and is nice to have around in 2006 and beyond when Cruz is gone.

Perez is still reasonably young at 23, but he's never cracked a 750 OPS and was demoted this year back to AA for a repeat year that isn't going well. Small chance to be a utility infielder.

Bono was an 8th rd pick last year, but he was very good in the Cape that summer out of the pen (worked as a starter in college) and the Sox signed him for 400+k, which is roughly 4th rd money.

He's pitched all year out of the Wilmington pen. He's had a lot of Ks (56 in 48.2 IP), but also 32 BB and 5 HR which is pretty high for the Carolina League.

I think he's pitched better of late and been stretched a little for some 2 and 3 IP stints. Slightly better than a generic arm strenght guy I guess. About what you'd expect for a DFA'd player.
   10. Darren Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:45 AM (#1512039)
Yeah, we're going to need two spots on the 40 and 1 on the 25. The Red Sox could have avoided much of this headache by calling up Abe Alvarez (who they could have held out Thursday, no?), who's already on the 40. And therefore, I think a deal of some kind is currently in the works.
   11. Joel Barrett Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:45 AM (#1512040)
"Now 40-man spots have to be created for Cruz AND Papelbon."

Well, they could give Adam Stern back to Atlanta. Keeping him on the 25-man roster is not exactly helping them.
   12. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:47 AM (#1512042)
AP finally mentioned this deal in their daily trade wrapup:

The Red Sox did complete one deal, getting outfielder Jose Cruz Jr. and cash from the Arizona Diamondbacks for minor league infielder Kenny Perez and right-handed prospect Kyle Bono.
   13. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:49 AM (#1512045)
SportsTicker also finally updated:

Red Sox acquire OF Cruz from Diamondbacks
   14. Darren Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:49 AM (#1512046)
Nice wrapup Philly. Good info.
   15. Buster Olney the Lonely Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:50 AM (#1512049)
paging levski, you're wanted in the therapy ward.
   16. Darren Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:51 AM (#1512050)
Levski only likes to show up when ST is getting too Red-Soxy.
   17. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:54 AM (#1512054)
From what I remember when the Royals had them as an affiliate, Wilmington is one of the most extreme pitcher's parks in the country.
   18. covelli chris p Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:05 AM (#1512070)
well they have to pay cruz.
   19. Nobody ##### with DeJesus Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:07 AM (#1512072)
No other team was willing to offer more than this? I find that difficult to believe.
   20. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:09 AM (#1512074)
No other team was willing to offer more than this? I find that difficult to believe.

On Baseball Tonight, they were speculating it was because of Cruz' bad back.
   21. Honkie Kong Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:12 AM (#1512083)
Kenny Perez and Kyle Bono.
i see U2 rendition of the Gambler coming up! Still waiting for the day when someone is going to be name d Kyle Perez!
If nothing, Kyle should be traded to the Mets, so they have someone to sing "Sunday Bloody Sunday"!
   22. philly Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:12 AM (#1512085)
well they have to pay cruz.

One report I saw had AZ sending "cash considerations" so maybe not so much.
   23. Chip Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:18 AM (#1512092)
Yeah, we're going to need two spots on the 40 and 1 on the 25. The Red Sox could have avoided much of this headache by calling up Abe Alvarez (who they could have held out Thursday, no?), who's already on the 40. And therefore, I think a deal of some kind is currently in the works.

A logical conclusion might be that Alvarez, Shoppach, and perhaps Stern are being packaged for somebody. But for a hitter, or for pitching?
   24. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:22 AM (#1512095)
ProJo finally updated...

Sox get their outfielder: D'backs send Cruz to Boston

On the Bigbie deal that wasn't:

On Friday night, the Rockies dealt outfielder Eric Byrnes to Baltimore for Bigbie with the express purpose of flipping him to the Sox for Shoppach and Stern. The two teams had completed the necessary paperwork with the commissioner's office, but the Sox pulled out of the deal.

According to multiple baseball sources, the deal was killed by Red Sox ownership, which reportedly objected to the sheer number of players coming and going from the organization as the team discussed multiple trades involving slugger Manny Ramirez.

The Rockies refused comment on the breakdown of the deal, but one baseball official with knowledge of the deal: "They're livid -- and that's an understatement."
   25. Law Boy Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:23 AM (#1512097)
I think part of the reason the Sox got him was to block the Yankees from getting him.
   26. Zach Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:28 AM (#1512101)
That's pretty bush league. If you let your trading partner pull the trigger on the first half of a string trade, you shouldn't get cold feet based on general principles.
   27. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:29 AM (#1512104)
It does seem the Red Sox ownership/FO is in a bit of a flux at the moment with all that's going down... who's captaining the Boston ship is an interesting question.
   28. Chip Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:33 AM (#1512108)
I wonder if the fact that the Sox are basically paying B.K. Kim to pitch for the Rockies had some influence on their actions here, rightly or wrongly.
   29. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:35 AM (#1512113)
I consider Bono a sleeper ... I'm not sure if that stats bear this out, but I believe that a lot of his control problems occurred early in the year (his first full pro season). He was very good on the Cape (as philly mentioned), and in his few innings in the NYP last year and for Central Florida.

"From what I remember when the Royals had them as an affiliate, Wilmington is one of the most extreme pitcher's parks in the country."
This is correct.
   30. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:35 AM (#1512114)
I guess Chastity was unavailable. And Sonny was dead. All in all, then, the Diamondbacks got the best Bono possible.
   31. JMM Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:38 AM (#1512117)
Still waiting for the day when someone is going to be named Kyle Perez!

I seriously doubt there aren't a few of them roaming around out here (CA) somewhere already.
   32. JMM Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:39 AM (#1512118)
I guess Chastity was unavailable. And Sonny was dead. All in all, then, the Diamondbacks got the best Bono possible.

Steve Bono did alright for himself for a few years.
   33. JMM Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:40 AM (#1512119)
   34. Norcan Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:40 AM (#1512120)
"I think part of the reason the Sox got him was to block the Yankees from getting him."


I hope not. He's terrible. His Iso slugging is impressive but it can't make up for batting .215. He's only 31 but he plays like he's 39. Are there any Arizona fans that actually liked watching him play?

I can see him being DFA again in a month.
   35. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:41 AM (#1512122)
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!


NO Huff! NO blue chippers being traded for AAAA guys! NO trading Manny (it appears)! YES!
   36. GGC Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:42 AM (#1512125)
Bono is rusty anyways. He hasn't played in 6 years.
   37. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:47 AM (#1512131)
A logical conclusion might be that Alvarez, Shoppach, and perhaps Stern are being packaged for somebody. But for a hitter, or for pitching?

That's not goign to get any player that's any good, you know that right?
   38. shoewizard Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:48 AM (#1512133)
Cruz vS RHP .835 OPS Vs. LHP .595 OPS

Last year he had a better OPS vs. lefties and than righties. Perhaps it hurts him more to swing righthanded. (His back injury)

Red Sox would be wise not to use him against lefties.
   39. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:49 AM (#1512135)
Cruz also, supposedly, is only recently feeling healthy for the first time all year, having injured himself in a team-mandated golf tourney.
   40. Chip Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:50 AM (#1512138)
That's not goign to get any player that's any good, you know that right?

I'm not saying it is. I'm just looking at what they might do to create roster spots for Cruz and Papelbon.
   41. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:51 AM (#1512142)
Cruz also, supposedly, is only recently feeling healthy for the first time all year, having injured himself in a team-mandated golf tourney.

Yeah, I chuckled when I read the reports of his injury occurred at a charity golf outing.

I had visions of him chatting it up with Alice Cooper, teeing up, and all of a sudden 'Son of a...'

:)
   42. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:52 AM (#1512143)
Bono's even better than the real thing.


CATORCE MOTHER F!@#
   43. Rally Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:53 AM (#1512145)
No other team was willing to offer more than this? I find that difficult to believe.

Health problems and brutal defense hurt Cruz's value. MGL posted his UZR the other day, I can't remember exactly what it was but it was real ugly.

This is a salary dump for Arizona, since the already dfa'd him. I wonder if they will still pay part of the contract.
   44. b Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:56 AM (#1512147)
My impression was that Cruz wasn't healthy yet. It might have made sense for the Yankees to get him and DL him in the hopes he might recover enough to help in the stretch. For an immediate need, I'm not sure. Per a discussion about him the other day, mgl had him at something like -63 UZR per 150 in CF this year. As a point of reference, Bernie was at -28.
   45. 1k5v3L Posted: July 31, 2005 at 05:00 AM (#1512150)
Heh

I'm ok with this. Perez is a filler at 2b, might be a Matt Kata one day. With more power. Bono might pan out as a reliever. You can never have too many sinker ball pitchers at the BOB. AZ was going to lose Cruz anyhow. Good for Theo; at least NYY didn't get Cruz. I think AZ is sending some cash to BOS, I am not sure how much. I'm just happy to see Conor Jackson with the Dbacks today; he'll be a stud. Next up, DFA McCracken, call up Carlos Quentin.
   46. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2005 at 05:06 AM (#1512157)
I saw Perez hit a game winning home run in extra innings last week.

...I have nothing productive to add to this topic.
   47. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 31, 2005 at 05:10 AM (#1512162)
...I have nothing productive to add to this topic.

"And the beat goes on."
   48. SM in DC Posted: July 31, 2005 at 05:15 AM (#1512165)
This strikes me as a defensive move by Boston in the same way that Byrnes to B'more was... Keep the Yanks from improving their CF situation. Both those guys would have done that.
   49. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2005 at 05:19 AM (#1512167)
If MGL's UZR numbers are accurate, he wouldn't be much of an improvement over Bernie, if any.
   50. bibigon Posted: July 31, 2005 at 05:51 AM (#1512196)
eh?

UZR loves Cruz...
   51. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2005 at 06:02 AM (#1512208)
Not according to the numbers MGL posted for this year. That could be just the back thing, though.
   52. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: July 31, 2005 at 06:11 AM (#1512218)
I didn't think UZR was meaningfully predictive in small samples (less than ~100 games). Midseason UZR numbers may not tell us much about how a player will perform in the ~60 games after the deadline.

-63 isn't very encouraging, though.
   53. b Posted: July 31, 2005 at 06:41 AM (#1512247)
Since we know that Cruz is hurt, I'd venture that there is some value in trying to measure the extent to which the injury is effecting him even if the amount of data is not optimal.
   54. Jose Clutch (Replacement Level Poster) Posted: July 31, 2005 at 06:55 AM (#1512273)
I didn't think UZR was meaningfully predictive in small samples (less than ~100 games)

MGL has suggested that it's more like 300
   55. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 07:31 AM (#1512303)
This transaction must not have been considered a big deal by the Phoenix media; it got a whopping one paragraph buried towards the bottom of the daily D'back notes page in the Arizona Republic:

The Diamondbacks traded outfielder Jose Cruz Jr., who was designated for assignment, to the Red Sox for minor leaguers Kenny Perez (infielder) and Kyle Bono (pitcher) and cash considerations.

It was considered less important than a possible Tony Clark extension :)
   56. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: July 31, 2005 at 07:38 AM (#1512304)
MGL has suggested that it's more like 300

EV claimed to find statistically significant season to season correlation in UZR starting at around 100 games (UZR games rather than actual games) per season a couple years ago. I'm not sure where that thread is now, though (it was on SoSH which just moved).
   57. NTNgod Posted: July 31, 2005 at 07:59 AM (#1512309)
More on the Bigbie 'deal' from the Denver Post:

Enthusiasm for Quintanilla's debut, however, could not ease the sting of losing Shoppach. The Rockies believed they had a deal for the 25-year-old catcher in exchange for Bigbie, pending Red Sox ownership approval Saturday.

Boston wasn't willing to sign off until exhausting all efforts to package Shoppach for Tampa Bay's Aubrey Huff.

If that trade fizzles, there's a slim possibility Colorado could revisit talks for Shoppach today.
   58. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 31, 2005 at 09:00 AM (#1512323)
I really wish we could kill the rumor of trading ANYTHING OF VALUE for Larry Bigbie.
   59. J. Cross Posted: July 31, 2005 at 10:10 AM (#1512345)
Don't know if it means much to folks here but Cruz's PrOPS numbers are excellent.

0.252/0.369/0.495 for this year.
   60. Sexy Lizard Posted: July 31, 2005 at 11:27 AM (#1512362)
PrOPS?
   61. Mikαεl Posted: July 31, 2005 at 11:40 AM (#1512365)
Basically, PrOPS is an expected batting average number based on LD% and GB/FB.

I'm worried about Cruz' defense, but I guess you have to assume that the Red Sox front office has their own version of UZR - James and others have made that pretty clear - so, well, yeah. Doesn't mean Cruz is a stud, but hopefully he's vaguely competent.

I had dreams last night about the trading deadline. I specifically remember a report that the Red Sox traded Miller to Seattle for "Cuaradso", which I quickly figured out meant Guardado. I was happy about that trade, but worried about the starting rotation.
   62. Mikαεl Posted: July 31, 2005 at 11:43 AM (#1512367)

According to multiple baseball sources, the deal was killed by Red Sox ownership, which reportedly objected to the sheer number of players coming and going from the organization as the team discussed multiple trades involving slugger Manny Ramirez.


Along with the Daily News piece yesterday, that's now two significant reports of infighting in the Boston front office.

Is anyone going to the game today? I wanna see a sign that reads "Fire Larry Lucchino"
   63. Russ Posted: July 31, 2005 at 12:30 PM (#1512398)
I had dreams last night about the trading deadline. I specifically remember a report that the Red Sox traded Miller to Seattle for "Cuaradso", which I quickly figured out meant Guardado. I was happy about that trade, but worried about the starting rotation.

I wish my team (the Pirates) were good enough that I would actually dream about the trading deadline.

To be honest, the Pirates are in severe trouble. They had managed to claw their way back to relevance during the NHL strike, but with Sydney Crosby almost officially a Penguin (just needs to sign the deal) and the Steelers likely to make another playoff run, the Pirates will again be teetering their way off of the radar in Pittsburgh.

God... the Penguins present the perfect contrast to the Pirates... they were both good at around the same time (early 90's), both teams had the best player in their sport, but the Penguins went for broke (literally) and won for longer and now they've rebuilt the team into a competitor faster than the Pirates. In fact, if Howard Baldwin hadn't been such an idiot with the rest of his businesses, the Penguins would never gone bankrupt in the first place.
   64. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: July 31, 2005 at 12:42 PM (#1512400)
With Colorado spurned by Boston in the Byrnes thing, it might be a nice time for the Yankees to swoop in; it's logical to assume that the Rockies are on "tilt" and may not act completely dispassionately in this.

Similar to the A-Rod deal, which I'm convinced would not have happened as it did if Boston didn't lay the groundwork and then the trade didn't happen.
   65. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: July 31, 2005 at 12:56 PM (#1512410)
I could have sworn that mgl had Cruz at -33 per 150 games. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.
   66. Josh Posted: July 31, 2005 at 01:05 PM (#1512416)
I could have sworn that mgl had Cruz at -33 per 150 games. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

As a CF (in roughly 1 season's worth of of data). + 17 as a RF (with the same size data).
   67. Artie Ziff Posted: July 31, 2005 at 01:49 PM (#1512434)
Another seemingly pointless deal for Boston this season. You get the feeling Epstein thinks he is playing video game baseball.
   68. Mikαεl Posted: July 31, 2005 at 02:02 PM (#1512437)
The Red Sox don't have a right fielder. Theo traded for a right fielder, and he ave up very little.

I'm all up for criticizing Theo, but I don't see the problem with this move.
   69. philly Posted: July 31, 2005 at 02:50 PM (#1512469)
It's a little hard to get worked up over the "mgl/UZR hates Cruz defense" complaints because so far amongst the alternatives we know about are:

a) Matt Lawton whose defense also sucks by UZR and will probably cost much more in prospects and/or cash

b) Larry Bigbie who would have cost a pretty solid prospect in Shoppach.

c) fulltime Kapler or whatever internal options the Sox were considerig (a little Stern, some Millar)

So far, I'll take d) Jose "none of the above" Cruz without a second thought.
   70. Darren Posted: July 31, 2005 at 02:58 PM (#1512476)
latest data from UZR that I have (2003, listed in /162 games) says Cruz was +22/162 in RF (157 games).
That's hardly "hating Cruz." 2002 was +4 in RF (42 games), +15 in LF (56 games), -26 in CF (19) games. Cruz was terrible in CF in 01, but that's an awfully long time ago.

If I were to draw a conclusion from UZR, I'd say it was that Cruz is a bit above average as corner OF and maybe a bit below in CF.
   71. Raines30 Posted: July 31, 2005 at 02:58 PM (#1512477)
Great move from Theo. He gets a RF/backup OF and keeps the Yankees from improving with the same player. Gave up 2 players that probably won't have half the career of Cruz if in fact they make it to the bigs at all. What's the problem?
Russ, the player is SIDNEY, not Sydney. The next Stevie Yzerman.
   72. OlePerfesser Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:00 PM (#1512480)
Amen, Mikael. As long as you don't fool yourself into thinking Cruz is a CF at this stage, he's a nice, cheap fill-in for Trot.

ONE NOTE, HOWEVER: I've heard Cruz is a pain in the ass. Chronic complainer; ego out of proportion to his skills. IOW, a perfect new element to pour into this test-tube of a clubhouse right now, eh?

Is anyone going to the game today? I wanna see a sign that reads "Fire Larry Lucchino"

Double amen, Mikael. Trading Manny is certainly defensible on economic and sabermetric grounds. But good executives figure out how to SOLVE people problems, not pour gasoline on 'em and lighting matches. Lucchino's behavior with Nomar and now Manny has been absolutely incomprehensible. What a freakin' A$S.
   73. Jim Wisinski Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:24 PM (#1512513)
Cruz's 2004 UZR was -7 which, from watching him all season, seems pretty accurate to me. He didn't come in on balls very well.
   74. philly Posted: July 31, 2005 at 03:52 PM (#1512545)
If I were to draw a conclusion from UZR, I'd say it was that Cruz is a bit above average as corner OF and maybe a bit below in CF.

mgl posted his 2005 UZR in some random thread and it was awful in CF and slightly less awful in the corner. I assume that's mostly back injury related, but with a negative UZR in 2004 as well, it would appear that his defense has taken a pretty big nose dive the last couple of years. Not clear how relevent the 2000-03 numbers are any more.

And in general that's going to become an increasing problem in terms of discussing UZR at all. If a player is 31 in 2006 are we going to still talk about his UZR from 2000-03 when he was 25-28?
   75. covelli chris p Posted: July 31, 2005 at 04:03 PM (#1512559)
so now we have 2 right fielders with bad backs?
   76. Darren Posted: August 01, 2005 at 12:39 AM (#1514046)
but 00-03 is all I've got. I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO! (/Richard Gere)
   77. NTNgod Posted: August 01, 2005 at 12:48 AM (#1514067)
Considering Lucchino's status and the circumstances of the ownership deal, I wouldn't place bets on anyone opposing him in a power struggle.

The Axe isn't going anywhere unless he wants to.
   78. Backlasher Posted: August 01, 2005 at 01:29 AM (#1514136)
The Diamondbacks think its a Beautiful Day because Cruz was really Bad. When the D'backs was asked their thoughts on the deal, they said the pitchers could be as good as the one in Oakland who has no name. Epstein expressed his Desire to have outfield help to get him to October. Epstein did not think Cruz was a Lemon, and proclaimed, I Will Follow the advice of my statistical consultants. Cruz became worried that the Sox weren't done with outfielder deals, but Epstein told him All I Want is You. When he asked Theo if he was the missing piece, Theo showed his Pride and proclaimed, "We will win the world series With or Without You. And when New Year's Day rolls around, our second championship will be The Sweetest Thing."

That's all from the Spy Glass.
   79. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 01, 2005 at 02:54 AM (#1514272)
Well this is one thread I got stuck in and can't get out of it.
   80. Darren Posted: August 01, 2005 at 10:42 AM (#1514709)
You've got to get yourself together, Ironchef.
   81. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: August 01, 2005 at 11:29 AM (#1514713)
He didn't come in on balls very well.

<Jerry Lewis> Klayman!!</Jerry Lewis>

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