1)I like Pedroia in the 9th spot, he's hit well there, no need to pile all this pressure on him by making him hit at the top of the order. Besides as "the book" says, there's a second leadoff man effect.

2) I really want to try Wily Mo Pena hitting SECOND and see what happens. He's got the ability now to not swing at pitches 2 feet off the zone, so he'll walk if they throw junk. He also K's a lot, which means he doesn't DP, which is a nice thing to have in the second spot. If he's in front of Papi, they'll throw him fastballs.

That being said:

Jennifer Dillon - Wily Mo - Papi - Manny - Youkilis - Lowell - Varitek - Lugo/Cora - Pedroia

Coco Crisp comes in to pinch-run/defensive sub as needed almost every game.

Thoughts?

i thought i read on here that lugo hit best over his career in the #9 spot; coco hit best in the #2 spot; and youkilis hit best in the #2 spot, but is no slouch in the leadoff spot. checking the splits on baseball-reference, it appears to be true. although the difference for lugo doesn't amount to a whole lot, what it indicates is that moving him will make NO difference to his production and may actually help the team. youkilis needs to lead off, and coco should remain 2nd in the lineup. i still believe in coco.

kevin:

I wanted to follow up briefly as I saw Wily Mo play multiple times during his stint with the Reds, and I think what Red Sox fans are seeing is an incomplete view.

Wily has never had any time to be an "apprentice". He has been in the big leagues in some role or another almost his entire career. Yet despite teams wanting to have him around he rarely has been given a chance to play on a regular basis. In Cincy he was stuck behind Junior/Dunn/Kearns. Now in Boston it is a similar situation with the DH role held by the most popular player in the league who also happens to hit a little.

To compound the matter Pena is the exact profile of the type of player who REALLY needs to play regularly to have the team see maximum results. As a hitter, Pena is a streak power hitter. Well, you will never see the "good" streak if you don't play the guy. All you will see too often is a guy striking out at sliders in the dirt in his desperate attempt to impress the boss. Saw it with Gorman Thomas, who finally got his shot. Saw it with Rob Deer, who finally got his shot. Saw it with Russ Branyan who never really got a chance. I am sure you can name ten of these guys yourself. Streaky power hitters HAVE TO PLAY. Otherwise, they stink.

I also firmly believe that Wily, if given regular playing time, WILL develop better control of the strike zone. Again, right now he knows those sporadic 4 at bats a night are all he might see for two weeks. So walking really isn't that appealing. Give him 50 straight games and you will see a guy who will draw some walks because he will almost certainly have cranked enough homers to garner some respect AND he won't be worried about coming to the ballpark and sitting on the bench. I saw it in Cincy. In his second month of playing time his OBP crawled up to the .340 level whenever the Reds had an injury resulting in Wily getting some playing time.

Similar situation with respect to defense. Wily clearly never did well in geometry as he is terrible with the angles. He needs live play to help correct that. But even more than that the team needs to risk putting him in centerfield. The Reds saw a WORLD of difference in his play over time when Pena was in centerfield versus either corner position.

Finally, I think it's cruel to see this lad waste productive years of his career playing caddy for someone else. He can play baseball. I mean REALLY, REALLY PLAY. Wily Mo Pena will hit 40 homers in a season for a big league club if they gave him 500 odd plate appearances. His defense will start as BAD and progress to blah by the end of the season. His on-base percentage will be in the .270 range the first two months and inch upward to .330 or so by season's end.

It will be a peculiar site having a rhino rumbling around in centerfield. But it would be best for everyone long-term.

FREE WILY MO!!!

FREE LESTER!

If everything you've said is true, Harvey's, then I think (and this is not a new thought) that Wily Mo is probably miscast for this team. Put him on a non-contending team with an unsettled outfield situation and see what happens. I don't think the Sox this year are in a spot to put on an experiment like this.

Going into the year, I thought that Drew's injuries would be all strung together - he'd miss a month or two straight instead of a day off here and there. So I thought WMP, as a 4th OF with potential, would be a perfect fit. He could emerge as a healthy "JD Drew". But it hasn't played like that.

kevin:

I am repeating myself but the lack of range you witness is the result of Wily's lack of confidence. Play him every day come what may and 30-40 games in you will see real improvement. No, he is not a future Gold Glover. But he will cover his share of ground, challenge any wall (and dent a few), and his arm will nab you a few extra outs.

Erik:

My guess is that Sox leadership keep him around anticipating the Drew injury or Crisp not EVER hitting. Which works for the Red Sox but is rough on Pena.

My guess is that Sox leadership keep him around anticipating the Drew injury or Crisp not EVER hitting. Which works for the Red Sox but is rough on Pena.

he gets regular playing time if drew, manny, or ortiz get hurt and part time duty if crisp gets hurt. ortiz and manny (when he wants to) have been pretty durable, but that's still 3 1/2 spots for wily to get backup playing time, so there's a good chance he gets a few weeks of playing time in a row.

as far as darren's original question, my thinking is that to >.300 obp's in the top 2 spots is bad.

My guess is that Sox leadership keep him around anticipating the Drew injury or Crisp not EVER hitting. Which works for the Red Sox but is rough on Pena.

Assuming Drew stays healthy (or, depending on your view of the current situation, doesn't get any more injured) it'll be interesting to see what the Red Sox do with Crisp. Since they're definitely not going to be hearing footsteps any time in the near future, and almost certainly won't hear them period they certainly could goof around with someone who is basically around replacement level as a starter for the season. (Of course, Crisp could start hitting at least a little, which renders this all moot).

That said, I can't imagine the braintrust actually doing that. So either Pena will get some time, they'll call up Ellsbury or they'll make a trade, probably in that order of liklihood. Unless Theo puts together some sort of ######' A trade for Ichiro or something

I don't think Theo would mess with the chemistry here unless the division lead is under 5 games.

I think Boston's fan base (and maybe their ownership; I'm not sure) has a hearing aid about footsteps.

I think Boston's fan base (and maybe their ownership; I'm not sure) has a hearing aid about footsteps.

nah we aren't worried. just trying to set the roster for october.

Ellsbury and Pena for Ichiro if we can get an extension worked out?

i know Ellsbury is supposed to be very good, and getting better, and he's under control for a long while, but Ichiro is a legitimately excellent player.

The funny thing about Crisp is that, even as terrible of a hitter as he is, he's still playing above replacement level because of his amazing defense. Bpro has him currently at 1.3 WARP1, which included +9 so far on defense (which is pretty close to what UZR and Dial's #s say, IIRC). By year's end that would be around 3 1/2 WARP, which is a reasonably average, if not better, player. So as much of a disappointment as his hitting has been, Coco is not really a problem on this team, he just shouldn't be batting at the top of the order.

Ellsbury and Pena for Ichiro if we can get an extension worked out?

i know Ellsbury is supposed to be very good, and getting better, and he's under control for a long while, but Ichiro is a legitimately excellent player.

This is from a few days ago, but MCOA just posted Ellsbury's MLE: 315/380/417, and his defense is considered off the charts, which probably puts him a tick below Ichiro. Ichiro's also 10 years older.

How much better is Ichiro going to be overall? Would it be worth 6 year, $100 mil he's going to be seeking. I think that money could be better spent in a lot of ways.

The funny thing about Crisp is that, even as terrible of a hitter as he is, he's still playing above replacement level because of his amazing defense.

UZR had him at +4 at the end of May, I haven't seen much of Crisp but I'm not sure I buy he's +9 on defense for a third of a season, espcially given BPro's numbers. If pushed to the wall, I'd say he's a lot closer to replacement level than average. Like I said though, not something the Sox need to worry about.

This is from a few days ago, but MCOA just posted Ellsbury's MLE: 315/380/417, and his defense is considered off the charts, which probably puts him a tick below Ichiro. Ichiro's also 10 years older.

Even if Ellsbury is everything Sox fans think he is (and more!) it's all a moot point because there's just no way Seattle is trading Ichiro when they're tied on the loss side with the Wild Card leader. I can't see them falling far enough out of the race to give up their marquee guy, espcially for "a minor leaguer and a fourth outfielder."

Ichiro is not worth an Ellsbury/Pena package.

I would not be opposed to a Another-OF/Pena/Pitching prospect package though. Although I woudl HATE to be giving up on Wily Mo now.

Ichiro extension: if we get one, that woudl be awesome, if not, we'll get 2 1st rounders out it anyway.

Wok, how many times do you have to be told? Pena is a horrible defender. His bat can't carry his glove.


I'm not asking him to play gold glove defense. I'm asking him to play DECENT (which he is capable of if he gets more playing time) defense for 6-7 innings in which his bat has justified his existence in the lineup, for Coco to come in and defend in some higher-leverage situations. We're not sending Coco to Iraq.

Even worse, you have him hitting second. There is no hitting profile worse for the 2-hole than the one pena carries. He has no concept of the strikezone and swings and misses way too much.

It was just a semi-throw-away idea. With Papi behind him, they're gonna throw him fastball after fastball. Wily Mo Pena after comign to the Red Sox 1) has shown he can work a walk 2) has become more patient. I think it can improve further.

As for the lack of contact, well, Marky Mark told us what that meant. And Wily Mo jacks'em further than Marky Mark.

It's was a semi-throwaway idea. In a non-experimental lineup, I'd have Youkilis in that spot and Wily Mo further down.

FREE WILY MO

Since they're definitely not going to be hearing footsteps any time in the near future

Uh, with Mike Timlin coming in today in that inherited runner situation, I'm nudging my Yellow asss to the Panic button again.

Also, is it just me, or is BostonDirtDogs run by a bunch of morons? I read it daily to judge the "casual Red Sox fan" if you will.

They were taking dumps on Dice-K today! DICE-K!!! He gave up 2 runs in 6 innings! HE ATE 6 INNINGS AND ONLY GAVE UP 2 RUNS!! HOW ARE THEY TAKING DUMPS ON THAT!!!

What starter was consistently giving us 6 innings last year? David Wells? Timmy? Lester? Beckett?
C'mon, and you know I like Timmy, and love Lester.

"If pushed to the wall, I'd say he's a lot closer to replacement level than average."

Just looked at his offensive numbers, a 54 OPS+? Seriously, there's no way his D is making up for that, even at SS or catcher I would be skeptical. Bpro has him at -12.3 above average at the plate for a CFer, 4.3 below replacement level. I'll believe the UZR number, I have a hard time believing the Bpro number, he's only 4th in ZR in the AL. I'll lean towards replacement level too.

Yeah, if you add up BPro's offense and defense, he comes out 3 runs below average total, so definitely comfortably below average. I also agree that UZR is far more trustworthy, so you're then looking at +4 on defense (which I guess I had remembered wrong), and -12 on offense (how is that possible???), for a total of -8, or something like -22 for the season. That's got to be closer to replacement than average. Moving him down in the lineup would result in less ABs and boost that number, but it's still pretty dismal.

Why is everybody ignoring my suggestion that we start Wily Mo, but sub in Coco later?

Also, is it just me, or is BostonDirtDogs run by a bunch of morons? I read it daily to judge the "casual Red Sox fan" if you will.

It is not you. The guy behind BDD has made many questionable decisions in the past. He was the one who got duped by the emailer who wrote that Nomar didn't want his ring.

They were taking dumps on Dice-K today! DICE-K!!! He gave up 2 runs in 6 innings! HE ATE 6 INNINGS AND ONLY GAVE UP 2 RUNS!! HOW ARE THEY TAKING DUMPS ON THAT!!!

Matsuzaka did not look good yesterday. He lacked control, which made him able to get through only six and led indirectly to Timlin. Also, he was not 'missing bats.' He would get two strikes and couldn't get the fastball by the batter or the batter would foul off the offspeed stuff.

presented without comment:

Top 7th: Boston
- J. Peguero relieved R. Johnson
- D. Pedroia singled to center
- A. Cora hit for D. Matsuzaka
- A. Cora sacrificed to pitcher, D. Pedroia to second
- J. Lugo grounded out to third
- C. Crisp flied out to deep center

0 runs, 1 hits, 0 errors
Boston 1, Arizona 2

BDD is a known idiot. My opinion is that he's also a racist, but that's another story. (look at the players he always gives a pass to and which ones he bags on). Of course, I'm basing this on past performance as I've avoided his page like the plague for the last couple of years.

www.joyofsox.com instead ;)

Jennifer Dillon - Wily Mo - Papi - Manny - Youkilis - Lowell - Varitek - Lugo/Cora - Pedroia

Jennifer Dillon? I think the proper female nickname for JD Drew is Hillary Clinton. It's Hillary-ous.

I could understand if Francona wanted to leave Pedroia in the 8 or 9 hole all year long, so as not to put too much pressure on him, but having already moved him up there once, I don't see the reason not to put him back up there. Of course, there's always the question of comfort levels when it comes to lineup spots, which I can understand the manager responding to-- and I don't mean what the numbers show, because I don't trust those (nearly always too small a sample to be meaningful), but rather the matter of clubhouse chemistry, which I think the manager does need to keep in mind.

That said, so long as those aren't an issue, Youkilis/Pedroia/Ortiz/Manny/Drew/Lowell/Varitek/Lugo/Crisp is really what Francona should be running out there. If he insists on putting Pedroia on the bottom, then stick Drew at #2 behind Youkilis and move the 6-9 batters up a spot. I understand that lineup construction is generally seen to make a slight difference if any, but the fact that this team is already underperforming on runs scored given its peripherals seems like a red flag. I know 9.5 games is a big lead but it is not too early to make this change.

Maybe flip Lugo and Crisp to avoid the RRR series of Lugo/Youk/Pedroia, though that strikes me as a pretty minor consideration.

Hey, how about letting Coco hit with 2 outs in the 9th yesterday while David "leading the league in OBP" sat on the bench? Brilliant.

The only change I would make are:
1) Swap Lugo and Dusty. If Lugo must stay #1 so be it.
2) When Youks gets pushed down to lengthen the chain Dusty hits 2 instead of crisp.

Matsuzaka did not look good yesterday. He lacked control, which made him able to get through only six and led indirectly to Timlin. Also, he was not 'missing bats.' He would get two strikes and couldn't get the fastball by the batter or the batter would foul off the offspeed stuff.

Yeah, all those non-missed bats added up to a mere 9 K in 6 innings. Sure his pitch counts were a bit high but he was solidly on his "B" game.

I'm still sold on Dice-K: said it before but he just needs an adjustment period and that ERA will easily drop below 4.

I just think that watching the game there were a lot of AB's in which Matsuzaka got ahead and either could not get the batter out or the batter fouled off a lot of pitches.

Pena needs to go to a team that can afford to play him regularly, because the Red Sox are not that team. Even if Crisp is awful at the plate, I agree with kevin's statement that his bat can't make up for his outfield butchery.

I also think Crisp will hit. But he belongs batting 9th until he does, and Pedroia should be hitting 1st or second in front of or behind Youkilis, with Lugo batting 8th.

I'd love to see Ichiro here. I'd like to see the Red Sox win this year, and Ichiro would make them very tough to beat. Damn the future!

I could understand if Francona wanted to leave Pedroia in the 8 or 9 hole all year long, so as not to put too much pressure on him, but having already moved him up there once, I don't see the reason not to put him back up there.

Well, yeah, that and the fact that Pedroia has shown, after a rough intro, that he can actually hit major-league pitching. There's no need to protect him by putting him down in the lineup. I suspect you would agree with this - I'm just venting a bit about Francona's mystifying refusal to acknowledge that Pedroia is just flat-out a better hitter than Crisp. That said, I do put more stock than most in the "manager's decision" rationale, since (in this case): Terry Francona is not a moron; AND Terry Francona knows a lot more about baseball in general and the 2007 Red Sox in particular than I do.

Better still, why not bring up Ellsbury and bat him leadoff:


Dammit what part of "let him beat the krap out of AAA" do you not understand? Stop rushing, the time will come.

Bring up Murphy/Moss first, who are both ahving good seasons in AAA. It's only fair to promote the guys that are having GOOD seasons, and will motivate Ellsbury to work harder. Sends a message really: if you play well, you'll get called up, doesn't matter what your "status" is.

I thought that the Boston Dirt Dog site closed down after we didn't trade for A Rod, right?

That was his promise, IIRC.

Clearly, Tito lurks here.

To follow up on teddy, here's the Globe report in question:

Terry Francona said he before tonight's game he contemplated making a lineup shift during the Sox recent road trip to Oakland and Arizona, but waited until the team returned to Fenway before announcing that he was moving second baseman Dustin Pedroia his lead-off man over shortstop Julio Lugo, who had struggled with a .247 on-base percentage and hit .130 (12 for 92) in his last 22 games.
...
``My point is that we want to try and increase the positives and decrease the negatives, that's pretty much what we're trying to do,'' Francona explained. ``Again, you never know who's going to get hot and who's going to get cold, but the possibility of Pedroia and [Kevin] Youkilis seeing a lot of pitches and getting on base, should help us.''

Sounds even like Youkilis back to #2, which makes a lot of sense.

sweet!

"Putting Coco [Crisp] and Lugo towards the bottom, even if they end up being together some nights, that can also work in our favor.

"If they're not getting on base right now as much as they want, the stolen bases are still good and we can free them up to run a little bit more when they're at the bottom [of the order]."

Exactly. About time.

Manny Ramirez is 2nd among outfielders in All Star balloting, but even more suprisingly:
Drew is 8th, Crisp 12th, Lugo 4th among SS - even though none of them deserve any votes.
It's good to be a Red Sox player - the fans vote early and vote often

I don't know, it just seems a little suspicious that I put this thread up on Sunday and the next day they have a game they change the lineup. Maybe I should be on the payroll like Eric M--you know, to counteract things like his .900 OPS projection for Lugo.

I don't have a problem with them doing this, but like I said above, I don't think it was necessary. Lugo and Pedroia project to be similar hitters. If this shakes things up, I guess it's good. Most important, to me, is getting Coco down in the lineup. He's not hit in over a year now.

Putting Coco [Crisp] and Lugo towards the bottom, even if they end up being together some nights, that can also work in our favor.

I don't love the way he said this--it sounds like he's trying to keep them separated, which he did tonight, sticking big fat Mirabelli between them. These two should be back-to-back, stealing, hitting and running, and generally trying to make up for their current lack of hitting.

"Lugo and Pedroia project to be similar hitters."

Lugo's career OBP is .335, and that's without a lot of variance-- outside of 2005, his OBP for a season has always been around that number.

Pedroia doesn't project to have a higher on-base percentage than .335?

ZIPS saw it this way coming into the year:

Pedroia .274 .347 .394
Lugo .292 .355 .407

The results so far this year tilt that a bit, but not enough to make them likely to be terribly different. And on the bases, Lugo's much better.

Well, it sort of worked out last night as the runs were generated by Lugo, Youkilis, and then Pedroia. Butthis team has to start hitting again soon.

If Lugo had a OBP of .335 none of us here would be that angry with him.

I still think Lugo's a pretty good hitter. He's still putting together solid at-bats, he's not missing by much, and he's a great baserunner. I think he'll be a solid contributor during the second half of the season - in the 750 OPS range.

Lugo and Crisp share a freakishly low LD% - under 15%. I don't know what that means exactly over ten weeks of play, but it suggests that they both just haven't been hitting the ball. Somehow, Lugo looks like he should be hitting the ball better, whereas I'm surprised every time Coco gets good wood on a pitch.

Testing tables in posts
Value of Sox Players by Linear Weights and UZR:
<table x:str border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width=719
collapse;table-layout:fixed;width:539pt'>
<col width=215 >
<col width=56 span=9
width:42pt'>
<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 width=215 >Player</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >Team</td>

<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >pos</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >PA</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >LW</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >Pos</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >UZR</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >Catcher</td>

<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >vs AVG</td>
<td class=xl2222971 width=56 >vs REPL</td>
</tr>
<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Ortiz,David</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>DH</td>

<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>236</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>22</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-3</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>19</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>26</td>
</tr>
<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Youkilis,Kevin</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>1B</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>243</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>17</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-3</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>4</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>18</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>25</td>

</tr>
<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Pedroia,Dustin</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>2B</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>157</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>6</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>4</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>10</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>15</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Lowell,Mike</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>3B</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-7</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>8</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>15</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Cora,Alex</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>SS</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>89</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>1</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>2</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>4</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>7</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>10</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Varitek,Jason</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>C</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>5</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>3</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>12</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Pena,Wily_Mo</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>OF</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-1</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-1</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
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</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Crisp,Coco</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>CF</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-8</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>2</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>4</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>4</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Lugo,Julio</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>SS</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-9</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>3</td>
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<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>5</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Mirabelli,Doug</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>C</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>53</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-4</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>1</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-1</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-4</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Hinske,Eric</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>OF</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>67</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-5</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-1</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-8</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-6</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Ramirez,Manny</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>OF</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>241</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>6</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-13</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-9</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-2</td>
</tr>

<tr height=17 >
<td height=17 class=xl2222971 >Drew,J.D.</td>
<td class=xl2222971>Rsox</td>
<td class=xl2222971>OF</td>
<td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num>191</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-6</td>

<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-1</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-10</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>0</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-17</td>
<td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num>-11</td>
</tr>

<![if supportMisalignedColumns]>
<tr height=0 >
<td width=215 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>

<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
<td width=56 ></td>
</tr>
<![endif]>
</table>

well, that didn't work
my apologies

ekogan, for one thing, I believe this site requires code to be bracketed by the two buttons to the right of your "P" key, not those the right of your "M" key.

Nerdy, nerdy geeky-geeks.

Nerdy, nerdy geeky-geeks.

Oh yeah? What do the sheets say about Nehantic Cat?

Eleven minus, twelve and a half, hasn't run since 9/06. You owe us $25!

Second try
[table x:str border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width=719 style='border-collapse:
collapse;table-layout:fixed;width:539pt']
[col width=215 style='mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:7862;width:161pt']
[col width=56 span=9 style='mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2048;
width:42pt']
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 width=215 style='height:12.75pt;width:161pt']Player[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']Team[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']pos[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']PA[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']LW[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']Pos[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']UZR[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']Catcher[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']vs AVG[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 width=56 style='width:42pt']vs REPL[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Ortiz,David[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]DH[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]236[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]22[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-3[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]19[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]26[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Youkilis,Kevin[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]1B[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]243[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]17[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-3[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]18[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]25[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Pedroia,Dustin[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]2B[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]157[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]6[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]10[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Lowell,Mike[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]3B[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]220[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]15[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-7[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]8[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]15[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Cora,Alex[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]SS[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]89[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]7[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Varitek,Jason[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]C[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]176[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]5[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]3[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]7[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]12[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Pena,Wily_Mo[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]OF[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]83[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]1[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Crisp,Coco[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]CF[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]208[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-8[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]4[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Lugo,Julio[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]SS[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]240[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-9[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]3[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Mirabelli,Doug[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]C[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]53[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-4[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Hinske,Eric[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]OF[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]67[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-5[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-8[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Ramirez,Manny[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]OF[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]241[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]6[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-13[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-9[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-2[/td]
[/tr]
[tr height=17 style='mso-height-source:userset;height:12.75pt']
[td height=17 class=xl2222971 style='height:12.75pt']Drew,J.D.[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]Rsox[/td]
[td class=xl2222971]OF[/td]
[td class=xl2222971 align=right x:num]191[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-6[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-1[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-10[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]0[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-17[/td]
[td class=xl2322971 align=right x:num]-11[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Third Try

that doesn't work too well either

And you spelled it wrong!

[tt]
Player Team pos PA LW Pos UZR Catcher vs AVG vs REPL
Ortiz,David Rsox DH 236 22 -3 0 0 19 26
Youkilis,Kevin Rsox 1B 243 17 -3 4 0 18 25
Pedroia,Dustin Rsox 2B 157 6 0 4 0 10 15
Lowell,Mike Rsox 3B 220 15 0 -7 0 8 15
Cora,Alex Rsox SS 89 1 2 4 0 7 10
Varitek,Jason Rsox C 176 5 3 0 -1 7 12
Pena,Wily_Mo Rsox OF 83 -1 -1 0 0 -2 1
Crisp,Coco Rsox CF 208 -8 2 4 0 -2 4
Lugo,Julio Rsox SS 240 -9 3 4 0 -2 5
Mirabelli,Doug Rsox C 53 -4 1 0 -1 -4 -2
Hinske,Eric Rsox OF 67 -5 -1 -2 0 -8 -6
Ramirez,Manny Rsox OF 241 6 -2 -13 0 -9 -2
Drew,J.D. Rsox OF 191 -6 -1 -10 0 -17 -11
[/tt]

ekogan - the site doesn't like tabs. format using spaces in courier, then paste that in using the code tags. That will get you your table.

[font size=+1]

[/font]

Source of the data

Manny is listed as 454th of 489 players.
JD Drew is 488th of 489, only Jason Kendall is worse

Tonight's lineup:

J.D. Drew, RF
Dustin Pedroia, 2B
David Ortiz, DH
Manny Ramirez, LF
Kevin Youkilis, 1B
Mike Lowell, 3B
Jason Varitek, C
Coco Crisp, CF
Julio Lugo, SS

I'm in favor. Drew has actually done a reasonable job getting on base (.344 OBP) so far, and I think he'll do a better job going forward. Youkilis can be an RBI man behind Ortiz and Manny.

And it is such, such a relief to see Coco and Lugo down at the bottom.

I'm not in favor. Drew may actually be coming out of his slump--no reason to move him around right now, especially into the one spot that seems to change both the batter's and pitcher's approach. There's no reason not to go with Pedroia/Youkilis/Ortiz... but Tito seems deathly afraid of that.

Humorously, Pedroia has now batted first in 1 of 3 games since Tito declared him the new leadoff man.

Line-up's irrelevant when the team isn't hitting period...

I didn't mind Coco and Lugo sucking when the team was doing a little better, but since they haven't been scoring many runs lately, I've begun to really lose patience with them. Lugo's got some boos at the Rockies games this week after making outs. It's probably just a handful of jerks, but it's there. I don't like booing players, but I do curse them under my breath.

I didn't mind Coco and Lugo sucking when the team was doing a little better, but since they haven't been scoring many runs lately, I've begun to really lose patience with them. Lugo's got some boos at the Rockies games this week after making outs. It's probably just a handful of jerks, but it's there. I don't like booing players, but I do curse them under my breath.

I booed Javy Lopez at McAfee last year, he was soo useless.

The line-up is brilliant!