BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: It Gets Really, Really Bad

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1. Joel W Posted: June 29, 2010 at 06:20 PM (#3574362)

How many wins does this cost us in objective terms?

Pedroia probably about 1.5. Victor probably about .5? Buch doesn't sound like he'll miss much time. So 2 wins? 2.5? Thoughts?

2. Dale Sams Posted: June 29, 2010 at 06:38 PM (#3574386)

Rays are coming apart at the seams...Sox would do well to put the stake in tonight and tomorrow. Time for Lackey to start earning that paycheck.

3. RJ in TO Posted: June 29, 2010 at 06:47 PM (#3574394)

Here’s the chart – it’s percentage of PA taken by the expected lineup, and percentage of pitchers games started taken by the expected rotation.

2010: 74%, 82%
2009: 79%, 72% (the year of Smoltz)
2008: 74%, 83%
2007: 84%, 86%
2006: 78%, 66%

Out of curiosity, how does this compare to other teams over that stretch, and to the league as a whole?

4. tfbg9 Posted: June 29, 2010 at 09:39 PM (#3574597)

2010: 74%, 82%
2009: 79%, 72% (the year of Smoltz)
2008: 74%, 83%
2007: 84%, 86%
2006: 78%, 66%

So, stay healthy, win Title?

BTW, we're totally screwed.

5. Dan Posted: June 29, 2010 at 09:45 PM (#3574602)

Time for Lackey to start earning that paycheck.

There is no chance Lackey allows fewer than 4 runs tonight.

6. Darren

Posted: June 29, 2010 at 10:52 PM (#3574651)

Here's something special about this year's squad: their injuries have deftly avoided the spots where they have really good depth and doubled up on other spots. So the Red Sox have not needed Mike Lowell much but they lost 3 OFs.

7. OCD SS Posted: June 29, 2010 at 11:07 PM (#3574668)

Not only that, but the entire organization is getting in on the act. Anybody in triple-A or even double-A who would've been a viable alternative had the good sense to get injured as well.

8. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: June 29, 2010 at 11:08 PM (#3574669)

So is Mike Lowell actually injured right now, or is he "injured"? If he has any ability to play, or any willingness to half-ass some LF or something, this would be a great time to give that a try.

9. Joel W Posted: June 29, 2010 at 11:58 PM (#3574715)

Lackey has been pretty good this month, at least in his peripherals.

10. Dale Sams Posted: June 30, 2010 at 12:28 AM (#3574750)

any willingness to half-ass some LF or something

Did you not see him run down the line in Colo.? Now imagine that in LF.

11. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: June 30, 2010 at 12:29 AM (#3574752)

So, stay healthy, win Title?

\

I wish the 2004 figures were there. Depends on how you figure things, but once Arroyo was put in the rotation, there was one missed start, a double header I believe. Plus, once the 3b/1b/dh positions were worked out, I don't think there were a lot of missed starts outside of Nomar.

That makes me think that the whole "expected" players is misleading. What if a team identifies a mistake and replaces him? Also, you are looking at a point where the two, possibly three, important injuries have not affected the figures. The percentages will look a lot different in a month.

12. Hugh Jorgan Posted: June 30, 2010 at 01:07 AM (#3574778)

Lackey has been pretty good this month, at least in his peripherals.

And of course he has that shiny 8-3 record! On his way to the Cy!

13. chris p Posted: June 30, 2010 at 02:11 AM (#3574854)

their injuries have deftly avoided the spots where they have really good depth and doubled up on other spots.

disagree. lowell used to be a good 3b, but the current version is no better depth than hermida, varitek, or bill hall. the problem is that the backups to the backups got hurt. shifting ells to center was the backup plan there and hermida was the backup at the corners. as it turned out, mcdonald, hall, and nava have actually been pretty damn good 6th, 7th, and 8th outfielders. really, this team had really good depth everywhere and they've really had to use it.

14. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 30, 2010 at 02:20 AM (#3574859)

So is Mike Lowell actually injured right now, or is he "injured"? If he has any ability to play, or any willingness to half-ass some LF or something, this would be a great time to give that a try.

If that were at ALL a consideration for the Sox, they'd put Lowell at 1B and have Youk play some LF again, I'm sure.

15. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 30, 2010 at 02:22 AM (#3574864)

There is no chance Lackey allows fewer than 4 runs tonight.

Well, there's some chance.

16. tfbg9 Posted: June 30, 2010 at 03:52 AM (#3574895)

Plus, once the 3b/1b/dh positions were worked out, I don't think there were a lot of missed starts outside of Nomar.

Trot was out most of the year IIRC, with Gabe Kapler getting the lion's share of his PA's.

17. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past

Posted: June 30, 2010 at 05:32 AM (#3574923)

If that were at ALL a consideration for the Sox, they'd put Lowell at 1B and have Youk play some LF again, I'm sure.

I was thinking that they might try that when they had to dig all the way down to Nava. I figured they didn't want to take Youk's glove off first.

18. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 30, 2010 at 05:54 AM (#3574927)

Well, yeah. But Nava f***ing rakes. So [forget] Lowell.

19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 30, 2010 at 03:24 PM (#3575119)

Out of curiosity, how does this compare to other teams over that stretch, and to the league as a whole?

I did just the Red Sox for two reasons. First, I don't know enough about other ballclubs to be confident in identifying their preseason expected starting lineup and rotation. Second, the Red Sox, as consistent contenders, are more likely than a normal club to have a set preseason lineup, composed of good players unlikely to get dropped out of the lineup. I'd certainly be interested to see the numbers for another club if anyone wants to run them.

I wish the 2004 figures were there.

That I can do. Here's the full chart for Theo's tenure.

2009: 79%, 72% (the year of Smoltz)
2008: 74%, 83%
2007: 84%, 86%
2006: 78%, 66%
2005: 81%, 85%
2004: 74%, 81%
2003: 79%, 86%

2003 is kind of impossible to run the numbers on, with the 1B/3B/DH carousel Theo constructed, but basically that team stayed very healthy all year, and the one guy who did get injured (Jeremy Giambi), well, no one really missed him for some reason. In 2004, not only were Nomar and Trot injured most of the year, but Bill Mueller also missed 40 games. For the pitching that year, they had 97% of their starts from the same five pitchers, but Kim was the projected #5 starter coming into the season, so I counted Arroyo's starts among the backups. (Single starts were also taken by Abe Alvarez and Pedro Astacio.)

20. SoSH U at work Posted: June 30, 2010 at 03:33 PM (#3575128)

Just curoius Mikael, was Smoltz considered the projected starter from April on, because that was obviously never part of any plan the Red Sox had for the year?

21. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 30, 2010 at 03:44 PM (#3575144)

2009 is impossible on the pitching side. Just ignore it.

22. John DiFool2 Posted: June 30, 2010 at 09:33 PM (#3575491)

The irony is that BBPro's W3 now has the Sox a hair ahead of the Yankees. I just hope the scrubs can hold down the fort until the regulars get back.

23. Textbook Editor Posted: June 30, 2010 at 10:16 PM (#3575507)

At least Pedroia's DL stint means he can also take the time to finally get the knee healthy.

[/grasping at straws]

24. Darren

Posted: July 01, 2010 at 12:53 AM (#3575613)

The other thing that isn't (and really can't be) reflected in the stats are the time that guys like Dice K spend on the roster, playing full time, while not healthy. The same goes for Cameron, Pedroia, and I don't know who else. Cameron looks like Kevin Mitchell playing CF.

25. Phil Coorey. Posted: July 01, 2010 at 05:32 AM (#3575786)

Seriously - MDC is ###### - proper ######

26. Hugh Jorgan Posted: July 01, 2010 at 06:07 AM (#3575794)

I just hope the scrubs can hold down the fort until the regulars get back.

I was just thinking of this today...who the hell are these guys and can I have my proper team back?

The pen, Phil....it's all about the pen now. Did I see MDC throw 12 pitches and give up 5 runs...how is that even possible?

27. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 01, 2010 at 02:28 PM (#3575931)

The Globe reported he is having an elbow injury looked at tomorrow. He got absolutely creamed last night, line drive after line drive. The bullpen is desperately in need of help right now but from where it will come I have no idea. At some point it might be worth giving Doubront a look out there. He looked good in his start and I'm quite certain he can pitch as badly as everyone else is out there.

28. Dale Sams Posted: July 01, 2010 at 02:39 PM (#3575941)

I'm quite certain he can pitch as badly as everyone else is out there.

Bowden can get creamed with the best of them as well.

29. Answer Guy Posted: July 01, 2010 at 05:23 PM (#3576124)

Now our boys get three home games against the Orioles, and they better propser then, because 16 of the next 20 are on the road. No Pedroia at all, and V-Mart maybe comes back for the tail end of it. It would have been nice to have grabbed a share of the lead because it might be our last chance for a while...

If they're still within 4-5 games on July 29 our chances are decent....

30. Dale Sams Posted: July 02, 2010 at 12:57 AM (#3576521)

MDC to the DL...guess Sox were lucky not to lose anyone on Tuesday.

31. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 02, 2010 at 01:11 AM (#3576532)

I have to come to the defense of MDC for last night. How often do three groundballs not go for a single out? Youk could have gotten to one and another was under the glove of Scutaro.

32. Textbook Editor Posted: July 02, 2010 at 03:23 AM (#3576622)

Jesus H Christo--now Varitek is out 6 weeks with a broken foot?

Varitek Hurt, We Trade for Kevin Friggin Cash

When do the ####### locusts start?

33. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 02, 2010 at 03:26 AM (#3576624)

It's like 2006 all over again!

What is the deal with Kevin Cash? It's like the Red Sox never miss an opportunity to acquire him. Is he married to Larry Lucchino's daughter or something?

34. Dale Sams Posted: July 02, 2010 at 03:36 AM (#3576636)

Well, like Tito said, 2006 was caused by losing Tek and the 3/5ths of the starting pitching staff.

Supposedly Cash is a good defensive catcher.

35. Textbook Editor Posted: July 02, 2010 at 03:41 AM (#3576645)

It really is unreal. Kevin Cash is going to be our C for the next 4 weeks? Ick.

It seems to be almost against the laws of physics that all 4 catchers at the ML and AAA level should be on the DL at the same time.

Really, honestly, I fully expect someone to be hit with a falling piano next.

36. Textbook Editor Posted: July 02, 2010 at 03:48 AM (#3576649)

#34, that may be well and good, but he can't hit a lick:

Lifetime slash stats of .188/,250./.291 Bleh.

Kevin Cash

Gack! He pitched an inning for Houston this year? Maybe he's also slated to replace MDC's innings as well?

37. TVerik Posted: July 02, 2010 at 05:22 AM (#3576687)

I haven't been watching. When they put Victor on the DL, did they bring up another C? I'm trying to figure out whether there was a real catcher to take his place when Varitek got hurt. Who's going to back up Cash? He can't catch 40 consecutive games.

38. L. M. Gumby Posted: July 02, 2010 at 05:57 AM (#3576697)

#37, Bill Hall? I don't know. "Now catching for the Boston Red Sox: Kevin Youkilis!"

39. SoSH U at work Posted: July 02, 2010 at 06:18 AM (#3576700)

I haven't been watching. When they put Victor on the DL, did they bring up another C?

Gustavo "Seriously, no relation. I'm not kidding dammit" Molina.

40. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past

Posted: July 02, 2010 at 06:31 AM (#3576703)

What no Doug Mirabell?

Wow, he hasn't played since 2007. Time flies.

41. Dale Sams Posted: July 02, 2010 at 06:48 AM (#3576713)

I suspect finding Mirabelli would be

quite like this

42. Joel W Posted: July 02, 2010 at 04:43 PM (#3576962)

Get well Victor! This is really unreal.

43. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 02, 2010 at 04:49 PM (#3576969)

It really is unreal. Kevin Cash is going to be our C for the next 4 weeks? Ick.

At the time Martinez went on the DL, the reports were that he should be back as soon as he was eligible - right after the All-Star break. That seems still to be the case. So Cash is the catcher for two weeks, which is better than four. But not good.

44. Darren

Posted: July 02, 2010 at 10:17 PM (#3577396)

But we all know VMart's out for the season, we'll just keep hearing he's a week away until it's October. This is really going to suck. Go pay the price for Iannetta and set yourself up for 2011. Or get crazy and try that whole gambit to get Napoli again.

45. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: July 03, 2010 at 03:35 AM (#3577579)

I don't think there's any Napoli gambit now that he's the Angels' full-time first baseman. I have no idea what realistic options are out there. Snyder/Montero? Iannetta/Olivo? The Rockies are only 4 games out, would they even listen to offers for one of their catchers? John Buck? Ronny Paulino? Doumit? Think Beane would take offers on Suzuki? I love that kid.

Just noticed this - http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/dbacks-called-red-sox-about-chris-snyder.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+MlbTradeRumors+(MLB+Trade+Rumors) according to Gammons the D-Backs called the Sox about Snyder. I didn't realize how much he cost - $2.4m left this season and $5.75 next year. Yikes.

46. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: July 03, 2010 at 03:55 AM (#3577583)

Sox in the Beerlight?

47. Dale Sams Posted: July 03, 2010 at 04:18 AM (#3577585)

Twins back-up prospect? Wilson Ramos?...

John Buck and Vernon Wells for a bag of balls if the Sox pick up the whole contract? It's just John Henry's money!! who cares??

I'm just thinking outside the box here...I'm sure the Sox will trade some crap for one of the Used To Be Uber Rangers Catchers that RSN wanted to trade Clay Buchholz for.

48. Darren

Posted: July 04, 2010 at 01:18 AM (#3578283)

That's a pretty nice contract for Snyder. I'd go after him hard assuming his defense is adequate.

I had no idea Napoli was playing 1B. That's what I get for skipping fantasy this year.

How about we trade them Lowell then!

49. ptodd Posted: July 04, 2010 at 06:47 AM (#3578330)

I was recalling 2009. At this time last year the Red Sox had the same record as now, 49-32.

2009 was a year when by this point in the season we had seen:

Papi hit his 2nd HR in June
Ellsbury was demoted from the leadoff spot after losing 10 of 17 in May due to a 335 OBP
Youkilis missing 2 1/2 weeks with Jeff Bailey as his replacement
Nick Green as SS due to injuries to Lugo and Lowrie
Daisuke on DL and Justin Masterson and Brad Penny were the 4th and 5th starters
Mike Lowell struggling in June before going on the DL end of June
OF/1B backups Mark Kotsay/Van Every/Rocco Baldelli on DL
Jason Varitek beginning his offensive slide in June with George Kottaras as backup

I actually like the Red Sox position better this year. Jacoby, Hermida and Beckett and V-Mart should be back before August. Pedroia and Tek in August.

The Yankees were beat up as well. Is seem to remember playing them in NY when they were without Swisher, Johnson, Granderson and Posada and without Aceves and Park. Injuries happen.

Red Sox now 5-1 w/o Pedroia (facing the slumping Rays/Orioles and Blue Jays before the ASB is huge)

50. The Mohole* of David Wells (* - Piehole)

Posted: July 04, 2010 at 05:19 PM (#3578460)

According to BP's Pecota-Adjusted postseason odds, the Sox now have a slightly higher probability of winning the division than the Yanks (thanks to strength-of-schedule adjustment). Eric Van has a similar thread over on SOSH, that show the Sox as being in first place, once we adjust for schedule. There's no good time for half the roster to get injured, but at least it didn't happen when they were 8.5 games back. Yanks and Rays play each other 13 times in the second half, and I'm hoping that will have a net positive effect for the Sox, and might balance out some of the bad karma they've had through the first half.

51. tfbg9 Posted: July 04, 2010 at 05:32 PM (#3578468)

#50--with all due respect to BP or whatever, any projection that has, at this moment, the Red Sox at 73%(?!) to take the 2010 AL East is all screwed-up. Does not pass the common sense test.

52. The Mohole* of David Wells (* - Piehole)

Posted: July 04, 2010 at 06:07 PM (#3578483)

Wow, those are some phenomenally bad reading skills you've got there. Try taking another look.

53. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 04, 2010 at 06:40 PM (#3578504)

Nonetheless, I remain worried as a Yankee fan. I mean, Eric Van is impressed with the Red Sox chances. And he's got numbers to back it up! We're talking about the Eric Van here, people.

54. The Mohole* of David Wells (* - Piehole)

Posted: July 04, 2010 at 07:30 PM (#3578540)

Wow, didn't expect such a bunch of stupid responses to my posting. EV's numbers are there for all the world to see and critique, as is the method that he uses. Hell, you could run it yourself if you wanted to. I was just pointing out that EV's numbers confirmed what BP had done (although EV argues that SOS measurements need to be run in multiple iterations so that you account for the SOS of the teams a particular team faces, and the SOS of each of those teams, and so on, instead of in just a single iteration). The adjusted standings of BP and EV show that if all things were equal, the Sox would be in first place by half a game for the last few days. All I was saying was that 1) it was remarkable that the Sox had made up all that ground given that they've faced the hardest schedule of any team in the majors, and 2) that we need not think that things are dire even with all these injuries. Whatever drop-off the Sox will experience because of Pedroia and Martinez (among others) being out, may actually be balanced out by the increase in SOS of the Yanks and Rays the rest of the way, so that it will be a close race at the end of the season.

Eric Van is clearly partisan to the Red Sox. But the point is that he and BP arrived at the same conclusion using different methods and different measurements.

55. Swedish Chef Posted: July 04, 2010 at 07:46 PM (#3578552)

Wasn't it Eric Van that projected them to win 130 games a couple of years ago?

56. The Mohole* of David Wells (* - Piehole)

Posted: July 04, 2010 at 07:56 PM (#3578563)

He also predicted that Lugo would lead the Sox to 10 World Series titles in 2 years, solve world hunger, fix the hole in the ozone, and find a safe way to dispose of nuclear waste. Some of the #### he says is absurd, but sometimes (maybe even rarely) he also makes sense. He's been doing this SOS thing for a few years. All he's saying now is that the Red Sox have been playing so well that they'd be a half game better than the Yankees if schedules were equal. For some reason people can't see past the point that EV said that the Red Sox are good, perhaps better than the Yankees. So forget that part of the post, and go with the part that BP says the Sox are a 1/2 game better than the Yanks right now with a 40% probability of winning the division when using adjusted standings. We can all agree that BP isn't a bunch of Red Sox fanboys, right?

57. Swedish Chef Posted: July 04, 2010 at 08:57 PM (#3578601)

Well, if Eric Van thinks the Red Sox are slightly better than the Yankees, then they'll be lucky to break .500.

58. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 04, 2010 at 09:23 PM (#3578615)

The adjusted standings of BP and EV show that if all things were equal, the Sox would be in first place by half a game for the last few days.

But so what? And I'd be saying that just as much if it said the Yankees would be up by half a game. All things aren't equal, and they won't be. The teams play different (albeit largely similar) schedules, have different health issues, etc. Right now, I think it is almost inarguable that--on account of Boston's injuries--the Yankees are a step better than the Red Sox and will be for a couple of weeks, at least. Some stat that says for the past few days, if you equalize a huge number of unequal factors, they're more-or-less even--half a game over half a season--is basically worthless, because it is telling me exactly the standings are.

59. tfbg9 Posted: July 05, 2010 at 04:09 AM (#3578695)

Uh, yeah, ahem. Whoops.

But its still nuts. The Soz do not have a better chace than the Yanks or Devil Dogs
to take the East, nor make the playoffs. Not with like 8 guys on the DL.

BTW, Eic Van...what?

60. Darren

Posted: July 05, 2010 at 01:53 PM (#3578706)

The Yankees were beat up as well. Is seem to remember playing them in NY when they were without Swisher, Johnson, Granderson and Posada and without Aceves and Park. Injuries happen.

Wait, the Yankees had to get by without Park? How did they do that? Seriously, if you're saying "injuries happen" as a response to what is going on with the Red Sox right now, it's hard to take that seriously.

61. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 05, 2010 at 04:01 PM (#3578748)

I did the numbers earlier- the Yankees have had their entire starting rotation healthy all season, and notably fewer injuries to their lineup as well.

Everyone has injuries. The 2010 Red Sox have more injuries than most.

62. RollingWave Posted: July 05, 2010 at 05:06 PM (#3578774)

aside from Johnson, Posada and Granderson have spent some time on the DL, though Thames and Cervelli were playing out of their minds during that stretch anyway so the damage wasn't very noticable, and convinently Cervelli have gone O for the century since Posada came back while Thames traded hammies with Granderson.

Still, the Yankees is getting a 140+ WRC+ from... BRETT GARDNER (and that was before Wise gifted him a inside the parker today), the guy who is suppose to be nothing in comparason to Jacoby the almighty Ellsbury, who as of now has a wRC+ half of Brett Gardner. YIKES.

The fact remains that despite whatever injury they're getting the only semi incompetent bat that has been getting playing time is Cervelli, and he isn't hitting particularly bad as far as a catcher goes either (94 WRC+ overall), not to meantion have been amazingly clutch in limited samples. Teix is still trying to fight out of a deep hole and Jeter / A-rod /Granderson have been meh (relative to their talent levels) but Cano / Posada (when in the lineup) / Gardner / Thames / Swisher are all hitting out of their minds. with Cano putting up a very legitimate MVP season so far. Posada continue to make us realize how damn good of a hitter he really is, Swisher continue to make the white sox look like idiots and Gardner simply playing out of anyone's wildest imagination.

Oh right, and so far only 2 start have not been started by their 5 main starter. *2*

63. tfbg9 Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:14 AM (#3580362)

Ian Browne twittered that Youks said he's feeling better.
Which means he blew out his achilles for sure:

Youk felt much better by end of game, Tito hopeful he can play tomorrow.

(from SOSH)

64. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:42 AM (#3580382)

If Cameron is so ####### dead he cant PH for a AA scrub we're forced to use at 1B, then put Cameron on the DL and lets trade for a serviceable player...and wtf letting that guy bat over Mcdonald too?

65. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:58 AM (#3580387)

Who the #### is Niuman Romero, and why was he batting in a one run game with the tying run on third and two outs?

66. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2010 at 04:11 AM (#3580392)

If any writer had the balls to ask Tito that, he'd probably mention that Romero was left-handed and the only 1B left. The response to that of course is 'so f%*8ing what.'

67. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 07, 2010 at 04:11 AM (#3580393)

No, no, seriously RB - this was the Red Sox lineup at the end of the night:

SS Scutaro
CF Patterson
DH Ortiz
1B Romero (Right. Who?)
3B Beltre
RF Drew
LF Nava
2B Hall
C Cash (or PH Darnell McDonald)

Actually, this lineup just makes me feel bad for Astros fans. Never mind.

68. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 07, 2010 at 04:43 AM (#3580407)

Ankle "spasm"?

Yeah, I don't understand pinch-running with Cameron. To me that's a classic overthink moment. Even a depleted Cameron *has* to be better against his own kind than a kid with a .668 career minor-league OPS.

69. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2010 at 01:35 PM (#3580484)

Francona reasoned that he would’ve been out of position players if he had hit for Romero and the Red Sox had tied the game.

“I thought what we did put us in the best position,“ Francona said. “Cam was going to steal, and they weren’t covering and it gave us a chance to have the winning run (at second base). If (Romero) dinks one in or anything, in my opinion, that gave us the best chance to win.”

"Oh noes!~If we get closer to winning the game we would be in a tight spot...so let's lessen the odds of getting closer to winning the game"

And when was Cam going to steal...?

70. Answer Guy Posted: July 07, 2010 at 01:49 PM (#3580497)

The Orioles just cut Garrett Atkins. (I only really know this b/c I live in Baltimore.) He'd be essentially free, and can play 1B or 3B poorly. He'd be a markedly better option than Niuman Romero if Youks is out for any length of time.

It's gotten to the point where taking Orioles castoffs might not be a bad idea.

71. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 07, 2010 at 01:49 PM (#3580498)

"Oh noes!~If we get closer to winning the game we would be in a tight spot...so let's lessen the odds of getting closer to winning the game"

Honestly - Romero is probably something like a .210/.250/.270 major league hitter - you may as well leave Cash in there at that point.

72. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 07, 2010 at 01:54 PM (#3580505)

Was Ed Romero available?

Too bad the All-Star break isn't a month or something.

73. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 07, 2010 at 02:17 PM (#3580539)

No, no, seriously RB - this was the Red Sox lineup at the end of the night:

Hey, I never said the Sox weren't struck by the injury bug in a bad way. And although the Sox are obviously in a worse position, what's the deal with both catchers going down at once? This happened to the Yankees (Posada and Molina) last year too.

74. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 07, 2010 at 02:19 PM (#3580542)

Francona reasoned that he would’ve been out of position players if he had hit for Romero and the Red Sox had tied the game.

Then don't pinch-run with Cameron. If your best hope for Romero was for him to "dink one in", Cameron's not going to score from first OR second. Duh.

75. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 07, 2010 at 02:35 PM (#3580562)

what's the deal with both catchers going down at once?

It's really four catchers, the two MLB catchers AND both catchers at Pawtucket are on the DL too.

The amount of energy being put into the "Niuman Romero or Mike Cameron" decision intrigues me. Really, this is where people want to focus their energy? Mike Cameron has a sub-.600 OPS against RHP this year. It's not like Tito left the 2007 version of David Ortiz on the bench to let Romero bat. Did you really want to see Cameron strike out on a slider in the dirt? Would that have made you feel better.

76. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 07, 2010 at 02:52 PM (#3580579)

And although the Sox are obviously in a worse position, what's the deal with both catchers going down at once?

Their top two AAA catchers are also down. How can an organization lose their top four catchers at the same time?

Anyway, I'm not trying to make some kind of "the Red Sxox would be better than the Yankees if blah blah blah" argument or anything like that - just making the point that it's really gotten out of hand - you know, in case that wasn't totally obvious already.

77. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:03 PM (#3580592)

Would that have made you feel better.

Yes.*

It just is a recurring Tampa thing for me. Except usually it's the best relievers Tito leaves on the bench for a situation that MIGHT occur but never does....by the way, Bard and Papelbon have appeared about twice each in the last two weeks. I'm jus sayin.

yes I know Bard's arm is about to fall off.

* Come on...we have to look at game situation. That poor kid wasn't going to get a hit in 20 ABs. And fwiw he threw that slider only three times last night.

78. Nasty Nate Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:05 PM (#3580597)

The amount of energy being put into the "Niuman Romero or Mike Cameron" decision intrigues me. Really, this is where people want to focus their energy? Mike Cameron has a sub-.600 OPS against RHP this year. It's not like Tito left the 2007 version of David Ortiz on the bench to let Romero bat. Did you really want to see Cameron strike out on a slider in the dirt? Would that have made you feel better.

what? I don't care if Cameron has a 0 OPS against righties this year in the 120 PA's he has, he is a better hitter than Romero. Why let their 2nd worst hitter bat with the game on the line? If Cameron pinch hits and they tie the game, he could switch to outfield and Patterson switch to infield for the bottom of the inning.

79. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:15 PM (#3580614)

In another quote referring to letting Cameron PH and bringing in Ortiz to play 1B he said, "I didn't want to lose the DH"

Well...at least he didn't say "I wanted to give the kid a chance to be a hero."

80. Nasty Nate Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:27 PM (#3580630)

He didn't need to use Ortiz at first if post 67 is accurate. Scutaro, Hall, or Patterson could handle first base in an emergency situation.

81. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:29 PM (#3580632)

If any writer had the balls to ask Tito that, he'd probably mention that Romero was left-handed and the only 1B left. The response to that of course is 'so f%*8ing what.'

Tito: "Who was going to play first?" Francona said. "We didn't have anybody left."

Yes, Im devoting a lot of energy. It's a slow day. I'll stop.

82. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:48 PM (#3580660)

I'm with Dale. But I wouldn't blame Tito if he temporarily lost his senses due to the Mets 2009 we are building.

83. tjm1 Posted: July 07, 2010 at 03:53 PM (#3580670)

He didn't need to use Ortiz at first if post 67 is accurate. Scutaro, Hall, or Patterson could handle first base in an emergency situation.

Yeah, Cameron to the outfield, Patterson to 2B, Hall to 1B leaves everyone somewhere he's comfortable. I guess Hall has never played first base in a big league game, but I'm sure he'd handle it.

84. Phil Coorey. Posted: July 12, 2010 at 12:48 AM (#3586379)

Can we please get an All Star Break thread - need to start planning the collapse or rise of the 2010 Sox!

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