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   1. Dale Sams Posted: July 03, 2011 at 03:44 PM (#3868319)
On a slightly-related note...I think Bartolo Colon is the only player in MLB I actively wish injury upon. I just can't stand to look at his fat, smug face.

For years now, when the end of the rotation consisted of such wild-cards as Wakefield, and Dice-K...all I've asked for is a competent guy who gives up 4 runs over 6.1 innings. Not one who gives up those 4 runs in the first inning.
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 03, 2011 at 03:56 PM (#3868324)
On a slightly-related note...I think Bartolo Colon is the only player in MLB I actively wish injury upon. I just can't stand to look at his fat, smug face.


In other words, you can't stand to look at the NY on his cap.

The only player in MLB I actively wish injury upon is Derek Jeter :-) At least insurance would pay off some of his contract.
   3. Dale Sams Posted: July 03, 2011 at 04:05 PM (#3868326)
In other words, you can't stand to look at the NY on his cap


That's part of it....yes.
   4. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: July 03, 2011 at 04:20 PM (#3868330)
so, when the guy's fastball sits 92-94, touching 96, he looks good. and when he has trouble breaking 92, he doesn't. sage stuff there.

he gave you 6 innings last night, allowing 2 runs. he got 9 groundouts, including 3 double plays, and he only threw 85 pitches. and he did it without anywhere near his best stuff.


the main question at this point would seem to be whether the drop in velocity is a blip on the radar over 2 starts, or if the drop is a symptom of an injury, or if it's just a situation where you're not gonna know where he'll sit going from start to start.
   5. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 03, 2011 at 04:50 PM (#3868334)
Given what the Yankees are getting from Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon, it would only be fair if Miller stays good.
   6. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: July 03, 2011 at 04:58 PM (#3868335)
so, when the guy's fastball sits 92-94, touching 96, he looks good. and when he has trouble breaking 92, he doesn't. sage stuff there.

Maybe so. Still contains more insight than all the posts you've ever made on this site combined.
   7. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 03, 2011 at 05:17 PM (#3868341)
I'm a Miller skeptic, leopards don't change their spots. I doubt his improved control is a real thing but I hope it is. I think it's worth pointing out that his first three starts have been against very poor offensive clubs, the deck has been stacked to success for him so far.
   8. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:01 PM (#3868358)
so, when the guy's fastball sits 92-94, touching 96, he looks good. and when he has trouble breaking 92, he doesn't. sage stuff there.


Maybe so. Still contains more insight than all the posts you've ever made on this site combined.
you've never entered the basketball thread, have you?


the truth is that the baseball part of this site seems to be loaded with pedantic ##### such as yourself, and the lack of original content has really driven this site into it's very own groundhog day.


i mean, you can call me out for a lack of insight, but that's not what this site is about anymore. at this point, BBTF exists almost solely as a means of perpetuating a series of inside jokes that have accumulated over its ~10 year existence. moneyball, ichiro, liberals, david cameron, billy beane, zip codes, republicans, steve phillips' bowel movements, libertarians, gay marriage. that's what this site is now.
   9. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:07 PM (#3868361)
So what's your goal, to heighten the contradictions by making everything SO IRRITATING that everyone decides to disband and join other baseball discussion boards?
   10. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:22 PM (#3868366)
So what's your goal, to heighten the contradictions by making everything SO IRRITATING that everyone decides to disband and join other baseball discussion boards?
i tried to do something about the lack of insightful comment last offseason, but your opinion apparently won out, so i stopped bothering.


since then, i've really tried to stay away from commenting on anything related to baseball, except in the cases of players or teams that i like.
   11. Raskolnikov Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:38 PM (#3868371)
i mean, you can call me out for a lack of insight, but that's not what this site is about anymore. at this point, BBTF exists almost solely as a means of perpetuating a series of inside jokes that have accumulated over its ~10 year existence. moneyball, ichiro, liberals, david cameron, billy beane, zip codes, republicans, steve phillips' bowel movements, libertarians, gay marriage. that's what this site is now.

Where have all the Great Posters Gone?
   12. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:50 PM (#3868378)
It's a bizarre complaint to make in a thread about a topic that only a quite obsessive baseball fan could care about.

Anyway, I see my job here not so much as being a fascinating blogger that everyone awaits to drop new insights, and much more as opening discussion on topics that obsessive Sox fans like myself will care about. I try to aggregate some interesting facts, add a little bit of opinion, hopefully a joke if I think of one, and let the community have at it. If I had to wait until I had a legitimate insight before I wrote a post, we'd get one every couple months or so.
   13. RJ in TO Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:55 PM (#3868380)
that's what this site is now


You forgot baseball to the groin.
   14. Greg K Posted: July 03, 2011 at 06:55 PM (#3868381)
Where have all the Great Posters Gone?

Sorry, I've been out of town this weekend, BTF should return to its glory days on Monday.
   15. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 03, 2011 at 07:06 PM (#3868385)
Steagles complaint is bizarre. This is a red sox blog at BTF and Andrew miller is surely one of the issues of the day. Matt's posts as often as not exist not just to express opinion but to generate discussion. I'm not sure why Steagles feels the need to turn this into a thread about the state of BTF. There are ample places to do that.
   16. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: July 03, 2011 at 07:18 PM (#3868393)
Steagles complaint is bizarre. This is a red sox blog at BTF and Andrew miller is surely one of the issues of the day. Matt's posts as often as not exist not just to express opinion but to generate discussion. I'm not sure why Steagles feels the need to turn this into a thread about the state of BTF. There are ample places to do that.
i came here to do two things, talk about andrew miller and chew bubble gum. i was all out of bubble gum, and FPH called out my on-topic post, so this is what you got instead.
   17. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: July 03, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#3868438)
I would rather talk about Andrew Miller.

I am pleased with the acquisition. Considering the Marlins released Dustin Richardson and Andrew Miller has made three quality starts, the Red Sox have already won this trade.
   18. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: July 03, 2011 at 09:15 PM (#3868452)
What a surprise, another masterful start by Freddy Garcia today.
   19. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 03, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#3868461)
and FPH called out my on-topic post
Right, it was the on-topic stuff that won you his flame post, not the needless swipe at MCoA.
   20. ian Posted: July 03, 2011 at 09:51 PM (#3868482)
Miller came to Detroit with great expectations but I felt even in terms of potential he was underwhelming. His command and guile were lacking, maybe those improve with age, but his stuff was less than advertised as well. Supposedly he has a sharp slider but that doesn't seem to help him show a platoon advantage against LHB and I don't recall being much impressed by his breaking stuff.
   21. Hugh Jorgan Posted: July 03, 2011 at 10:22 PM (#3868495)
Where have all the Great Posters Gone

Between Greg in the UK, myself and fellow Aussie Phil Coorey, we'll lift that overseas quality you've been searching for..but first let's have a serious discussion on socialised medicine and gun ownership!
   22. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: July 03, 2011 at 10:26 PM (#3868496)
you've never entered the basketball thread, have you?

I have. Blatant homerism is not insightful.


Between Greg in the UK, myself and fellow Aussie Phil Coorey, we'll lift that overseas quality you've been searching for..

I would campaign to be included in that group, but I can't pull it off with a straight face...
   23. Textbook Editor Posted: July 03, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#3868518)
The bar for Miller is rather low: be better than Wakefield and be better than Aceves. If he does these two things, then he should have the 5th spot (assuming Lackey is able to hang on to a spot).

I, for one, rather hope to see an experimentation with a 6-man rotation once Buchholz is back, where Wakefield is the swing man and they try to steal extra days of rest for Beckett and Lester.

I'm also not sure I understand what everything else seems to be referencing in this thread, though admittedly I stick mainly to Red Sox-related threads, Game Chatters, and the Soccer thread, so I don't usually wander into the 2,000 post threads on liberals v. conservatives, etc. Saves a lot of time to just stick to baseball stuff (and soccer stuff).
   24. chris p Posted: July 03, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#3868523)
i still haven't seen andrew miller pitch. if he has trouble keeping his velocity up as a starter, he might still be useful as a reliever. so yeah, i'll sign on as an optimist regarding miller.

you've never entered the basketball thread, have you?

in defense of the basketball thread, if you ignore STEAGLES' up-to-the-minute 76ers updates, there's a ton of good stuff in there.
   25. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: July 04, 2011 at 01:17 AM (#3868548)
in defense of the basketball thread

Defense?! In the NBA? Don't make me laugh!
   26. Darren Posted: July 04, 2011 at 01:51 AM (#3868560)
Anyway, I see my job here not so much as being a fascinating blogger that everyone awaits to drop new insights...


That's good. It'd be confusing if there were two of us.

I was really annoyed at first that they used Miller as a starter, but it soon dawned on me that Miller had some leverage and probably demanded that. So far, I'm pretty happily surprised that this is working for him. Even if it lasts, he'll have to figure out a way to not wear himself out despite throwing an extra inning before any game. It would be nice if one of these guys would work out while they were actually with the Sox.
   27. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: July 04, 2011 at 02:33 AM (#3868573)
I wish I could just click 'like' on some posts are write LOL more often...

:)
   28. Dan Posted: July 05, 2011 at 01:09 AM (#3868951)
How much longer can they seriously keep running Lackey out there? He's been well below replacement level. It's halfway through the season and he has an ERA over 7 in a depressed offensive environment! That's just absurdly awful.
   29. tfbg9 Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:20 AM (#3868980)
28-one more stinker, and he will be DL'd or something.
He can probably survive a couple few "meh" type starts.

But I'd be surprized as hell if he tosses another game like today's and they don't make an adjustment to the rotation.
   30. Hugh Jorgan Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:23 AM (#3868984)
It's halfway through the season and he has an ERA over 7 in a depressed offensive environment! That's just absurdly awful.

ERA+ of 59!! Woohoo. $18 mil per, man that is one big effing boat anchor.

I agree, you just can't keep running him out there, it's not even one of those things were you think it might work. You just know he'll get hammered. If he's got issues, sit the man down and give someone else the ball.

What would be fun though, just for the heck of it, is make him pitch the whole 9 innings. I'd just be curious if a team could get over 20 hits and 20 runs against him. Yep, that's how bad I reckon he's become.
   31. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:39 AM (#3868992)
What would be fun though, just for the heck of it, is make him pitch the whole 9 innings. I'd just be curious if a team could get over 20 hits and 20 runs against him. Yep, that's how bad I reckon he's become.


Living out here has made you a sadistic bastard!
   32. OCD SS Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:50 AM (#3868997)
Realistically you'd need to wait until the Rosters expand in September so that your starting squad doesn't suffer the fatigue and risk of injury of playing defense for 6 hours.
   33. Hugh Jorgan Posted: July 05, 2011 at 03:07 AM (#3869001)
#31
And thanks Phil for the update regarding Buchholz's back...not good. That makes Miller the #3 guy right now. No way you can consider either Lackey or Wake ahead of him.
   34. Textbook Editor Posted: July 05, 2011 at 03:48 AM (#3869024)
I'm starting to get the sense we're going to be in the market for a starter come 7/31.

I would not be surprised at all for Lackey to get 1 more start and that's it. If he is pitching with some kind of elbow issue, are they running him out there because they know the alternative is Tommy John surgery?

Aceves moves back into the rotation if Lackey goes, right? Or is he not stretched out enough now, so they'd invoke The Milwood Option?

Egads... This is shaping up to be like 2002 all over again... Two great starters and ??? for the other 3 spots.
   35. Dan Posted: July 05, 2011 at 04:38 AM (#3869040)
I'm starting to get the sense we're going to be in the market for a starter come 7/31.


I'd like to see Weiland get a shot. He's been pitching great in Pawtucket.

I would not be surprised at all for Lackey to get 1 more start and that's it. If he is pitching with some kind of elbow issue, are they running him out there because they know the alternative is Tommy John surgery?


They need to just send him to Dr. Andrews to get TJ so that he can hopefully be fully healthy for ST in 2013. I find it hard to believe that he's pitching this poorly without his elbow being damaged enough to require surgery.

Egads... This is shaping up to be like 2002 all over again... Two great starters and ??? for the other 3 spots.


Wakefield was also great in 2002. Only 15 starts but he had a 164 ERA+, good for third in the AL behind Lowe and Pedro.
   36. Textbook Editor Posted: July 05, 2011 at 05:29 AM (#3869047)
I had forgotten about Wakefield's 2002...
   37. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 05, 2011 at 01:24 PM (#3869105)
Before we get to Weiland/Millwood/etc...why not throw Aceves back in there? He looked pretty good to me and while I like his bullpen work I think he's more suited as a starter.

Lackey needs to go to the bullpen or the DL. I don't think you release a guy at this stage of this contract but you can't keep giving games away. Right now I think the post-Beckett/Lester group is (in order);

Wakefield
Miller
Aceves
Doubront
Weiland
Millwood

Obviously I disagree with Hugh on Miller. I'm still a bit of a skeptic. He was fortunate to not get lit up Saturday night and while some of that is by design (ground ball pitcher = double plays) I want to see him either have a strong outing or pitch modestly well against a non-lousy offensive team. All three teams he has faced are in the bottom third of runs scored in MLB and two of his three starts were in NL ballparks.

EDIT: I don't think the top four are especially different. I think the gap comes between Doubront and Weiland but I'm a Doubront fanboy.
   38. toratoratora Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:45 PM (#3869163)
Just saw an interview with Lackey in which he says that he feels much better since returning from the DL and that, and I quote, "Nothing, nothing will keep me from pitching."

Aye caramba.
   39. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:52 PM (#3869169)
Just saw an interview with Lackey in which he says that he feels much better since returning from the DL and that, and I quote, "Nothing, nothing will keep me from pitching."

Aye caramba.


Love the attitude.

Now can someone get Tonya Harding on the phone? She seems to have that kind of "can do" spirit that this situation calls for.
   40. Jay Seaver Posted: July 05, 2011 at 02:59 PM (#3869175)
Just saw an interview with Lackey in which he says that he feels much better since returning from the DL and that, and I quote, "Nothing, nothing will keep me from pitching."

Is that a threat, or a challenge?
   41. Norcan Posted: July 05, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#3869232)
and his fastball velocity has decreased with every start, to the point that last night he was barely above 90 in average velocity.


His fastball was around 90 in the fourth and fifth innings but the four fastballs he threw in the sixth came in at: 93, 92, 91, 93. I actually don't mind that he throws in the low 90s or at 90 rather than in the mid-90s like he's capable of or as advertised. I think he's more effective when he takes something off the fastball. He has more control and gets through innings quicker because he deduces a ton of groundballs. Against Pittsburgh, he threw a bunch of 95-96 mph fastballs and they weren't all that effective, with most of them being out of the strike zone or fouled off.

I remember seeing an interview with him before the draft, when he was the hot, no.1 prospect. He said he became a much better pitcher his junior year, able to go deeper in games and walk a lot less batters, because he dialed down his velocity into the 89-92 range instead of trying to light up the radar gun. He's more comfortable working at a lower velocity yet because he can throw so hard, especially as a lefty, he's often pushed to do so. There was a game against the Angels when he was a Tiger and I remember one of the Angels coaches (it was Fox game) commenting on Miller's lack of velocity. He thought Miller should just let it go. That's the kind of mentality he's faced throughout. Instead of being Randy Johnson, I think he's more suited to being a Derek Lowe, a groundball specialist.
   42. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 05, 2011 at 10:32 PM (#3869408)
Is every team this bad at judging free agent pitchers? Seriously, it seems like every single FA starter the Red Sox sign ranges from woefully disappointing to disaster. Most of them seemed like good to not terrible ideas at the time, but man, Theo & Co. just seem to absolutely suck at it.

FA starters off the top of my head:
Burkett (maybe a Duquette signing?): bad
Clement: bad/hurt
Wells: yuck
Dice-K: disappointing/hurt
Lackey: disaster/hurt?

At this point, I'm just going to assume that no matter who the Red Sox sign, it's going to be the wrong guy who will get hurt or just immediately start sucking once he joins the team. Fortunately, homegrown starters have been pretty good. Imagine if Masterson was still around!
   43. Darren Posted: July 06, 2011 at 02:04 AM (#3869649)
Burkett was a Duq signing. He was one of the ones people forget when they praise Duq for getting Damon.

Clement was good, then hurt. Wells was gross.

There are way more than you list here, too. Many of them were rehab types, but they did sink a ton of money in those guys too.
   44. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 08, 2011 at 12:04 AM (#3871374)
In other words, you can't stand to look at the NY on his cap.


In point of fact, when the Red Sox had Colon, he went AWOL on the team when they needed him to pitch in relief. Didn't tell anybody. So he's an ass separately from the cap.
   45. Darren Posted: July 16, 2011 at 03:16 AM (#3878814)
Bad news: Andrew Miller is the new Andrew Miller.
   46. tfbg9 Posted: July 16, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#3878815)
Maybe the reason the Sox got Andrew Miller for almost nothing is because he's a shi1tty starter?

I dunno...
   47. John DiFool2 Posted: July 16, 2011 at 12:23 PM (#3878874)
Perhaps Doubront deserves a chance now (tho his AAA control record isn't any better).

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