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   1. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 10, 2009 at 06:57 AM (#3408814)
Does anyone know what happened to Ramirez in 2009? What a disastrous year.

The utility of this trade depends on Lowell's health and the evaluation of Ramirez, and I don't know much about either. Getting a young kid who was at least recently a kickass prospect is cool, though $12M is seriously pricey.
   2. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:06 AM (#3408820)
I remember when the Red Sox made the Hanley-Beckett deal, there was a lot of talk of them just eating Lowell's contract. I guess they finally did although they sure have to be happy with what they got out of Lowell no matter what Max Ramirez does for them.
   3. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:19 AM (#3408826)
Now Robothal is backing off. Let's revisit this one tomorrow afternoon.

Lowell hip, thumb issues could derail trade to Texas. "This thing could still blow up," one source said.
   4. lonestarball Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:19 AM (#3408827)
Ramirez had a wrist injury. He and Jed Lowrie can compare notes in Pawtucket next year.
   5. Lassus Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:20 AM (#3408829)
For a split second, I really thought this was Lowell to the Dodgers for M. Ramirez and actually coughed as a physical reaction of total shock.
   6. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:21 AM (#3408830)
Is Ramirez still actually a catcher? Could him catching, Victor Martinez at first and Youkilis at third be at possibility?
   7. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:25 AM (#3408832)
Is Ramirez still actually a catcher? Could him catching, Victor Martinez at first and Youkilis at third be at possibility?


Over on SOSH they're saying his defense is not good. He's really a 1B/DH type, and may be the 2011 and beyond backup catcher.
   8. JB H Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:48 AM (#3408840)
It sure seems like the Red Sox think they have an edge over the rest of baseball when it comes to valuing injured players.

Max Ramirez pretty much sucks but as a guy with no service-time he doesn't have to do much to be worth Mike Lowell's 2010 season
   9. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:21 PM (#3408867)
Maybe I'm missing something here, since I don't follow minor leaguers all that closely. Is Lowell such a pariah that it's worth paying nearly his entire contract and taking a player that BBTF seems to think is basically worthless? It sounds like you could shake a tree and have a half-dozen Max Ramirez' fall out.
   10. Raskolnikov Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:40 PM (#3408873)
Max Ramirez has a lot of upside. I love the deal for the Sox.
   11. Sean Forman Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:49 PM (#3408878)
Year   Age       Tm    Lg         Lev     Aff   G   PA   AB   R   H  2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG   OPS
2004    19   Braves  GULF        Rook     ATL  57  230  204  20  56  16  1  8  35  19  50 .275 .339 .480  .820
2005    20 Danville  APPY        Rook     ATL  63  278  239  45  83  19  0  8  47  31  41 .347 .424 .527  .952
2006    21  2 Teams  1 Lg           A ATL
-CLE 117  487  394  69 115  23  1 13  63  84  99 .292 .417 .454  .871
2007    22  2 Teams 2 Lgs       A_adv CLE
-TEX 109  480  391  62 119  30  0 16  82  74 102 .304 .419 .504  .923
2008    23  3 Teams 3 Lgs AA
-AAA-Rook     TEX  81  337  285  58  99  19  2 19  57  42  69 .347 .439 .628 1.067
2009    24  2 Teams 2 Lgs    AAA
-Rook     TEX  80  334  287  30  66  15  0  5  45  36  93 .230 .318 .334  .653
6 Seasons                                     507 2146 1800 284 538 122  4 69 329 286 454 .299 .398 .486  .884 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/10/2009.

Those are very good numbers for a catcher. Very good numbers. You probably can't find too many catches with four years of .870 or higher OPS from 20-23.
   12. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:51 PM (#3408879)
Maybe I'm missing something here, since I don't follow minor leaguers all that closely. Is Lowell such a pariah that it's worth paying nearly his entire contract and taking a player that BBTF seems to think is basically worthless? It sounds like you could shake a tree and have a half-dozen Max Ramirez' fall out.


Ramirez is a catcher who absolutely mashed in the minors until last year, when he was playing hurt. His bat should allow him to play first base if he can't make it as a catcher. The downside is that he's 25 and hasn't broken through in the majors yet, and reportedly isn't very good defensively. Lowell's problem is that if the hip doesn't get better, he's a tweener. He doesn't hit enough to be a good DH/1B type, except maybe in a platoon role, and he's so bad defensively that you can't really put him at third base. Also, he's old enough that he's only of any value to a team that's contending now, and has a hole for a right-handed DH. The Red Sox could actually use a player like that to platoon with Ortiz, but I'd rather have Max Ramirez.
   13. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:55 PM (#3408881)
In my mind this deal hinges on the other shoe. If they get Beltre for a reasonable years/price (two years ideally) or if they can land Nick Johnson I'm OK with it. Otherwise I don't quite see the benefit of this. I do wonder if the Sox have medical reports or opinions telling them that Lowell just ain't playing more than 75 games this year.
   14. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:55 PM (#3408882)
You probably can't find too many catches with four years of .870 or higher OPS from 20-23.


I think this also raises Ramirez's main weakness. If you have a catcher who hits like that, normally, he'll be promoted so agressively that he's not in the minor leagues long enough to have 4 seasons of .870+ OPS. For that to happen, you need either a very conservative organization - which the Rangers aren't, with Elvis Andrus being case in point - or a guy who really has serious defensive deficiencies. The Rangers also have other good catchers, but nobody good enough to block Ramirez if he were even a little below average defensively. Now, the player with the most similar minor league numbers to those I can think of is Carlos Delgado, who quickly stopped catching, but who has been an incredibly valuable player despite moving off the catcher position.
   15. Mattbert Posted: December 10, 2009 at 01:57 PM (#3408883)
#9: Lowell is no pariah. I believe he's one of the best-liked players in the game. If this deal goes through as articulated--Lowell for Ramirez straight up, with Boston paying all or nearly all of Lowell's salary in 2010--then I think there are a couple potential explanations.

1. Boston's medical staff thinks Lowell is thisclose to being completely cooked and will therefore contribute very little in 2010 because of his health.
2. The FO really, really likes Max Ramirez. Who, to be fair, lit up the minors for five straight years--and got better each year--until 2009 when he fell on his face.

Or some combination of less extreme versions of the above. Although I guess the Sox could be utterly terrified by the absence of any catching prospects in their system coupled with the very possible scenario of V-Mart and Tek both being gone for 2011. And so they're willing to make this move to give themselves an option beyond 2010.

In any case, don't think Henry would sign off on eating $12M for Lowell unless he was pretty convinced that Theo and the gang had done their due diligence on Ramirez. So I'm optimistic that he'll be a respectable major league hitter regardless of whether or not he can stick as a full-time catcher. I mean, there's a hell of a lot to like in Ramirez's track record prior to last year. Which sounds more than a bit like what was said about the guy he's allegedly being traded for, circa 2006.
   16. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:00 PM (#3408885)
In my mind this deal hinges on the other shoe. If they get Beltre for a reasonable years/price (two years ideally) or if they can land Nick Johnson I'm OK with it. Otherwise I don't quite see the benefit of this. I do wonder if the Sox have medical reports or opinions telling them that Lowell just ain't playing more than 75 games this year.


There are other options. For example, a Kotchman-Varitek platoon, with Martinez shuffling between positions. Maybe the Sox think Max Ramirez is already capable of playing at the big league level at first. None of these options are nearly as good as bringing in a Nick Johnson or Adrian Beltre, but it's not like the Sox are completely lost without making another move.
   17. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:04 PM (#3408888)
Now, the player with the most similar minor league numbers to those I can think of is Carlos Delgado, who quickly stopped catching, but who has been an incredibly valuable player despite moving off the catcher position.
Delgado's numbers, in context, were far superior - he put up consistent 950-1000 OPS numbers in a much lower-offense era.

I can see the case that this deal makes sense for the Red Sox if they believe in Ramirez, but Ramirez has a lot of question marks. Well, two, but they're big ones. If he's not a catcher, he needs to be a heckuva hitter, and he just spent his age 24 season being useless. He needs a full recovery, and even if he recovers fully, he'll be a 25 year old in the minors. The Red Sox track record with minor leaguers and trades isn't bad, but it's nothing special - I don't see a lot of reason to give them major benefit of the doubt.

I can see the case that this deal makes sense for the Red Sox if they believe Lowell's cooked. If that's the case, though, it's quite bad news that Lowell's cooked, because we were counting on him for 100 games of pretty good production. Now the baseline for the 2010 Red Sox is notably lower than we thought previously.
   18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:07 PM (#3408890)
None of these options are nearly as good as bringing in a Nick Johnson or Adrian Beltre, but it's not like the Sox are completely lost without making another move.
He never said they were "completely lost" - he said the trade, given the expense of paying (most of?) Lowell's contract, wasn't one he liked if the Red Sox didn't make a good move to upgrade Lowell's position.

If the Red Sox make downgrades at both 1B/3B and LF, that'll suck up a good chunk of the expected upgrades at SS and the back of the rotation. (And every club's fans think their team will improve becuase they'll shore up the back of the rotation - I tend to be very skeptical of such claims.)
   19. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:09 PM (#3408892)
There are other options. For example, a Kotchman-Varitek platoon, with Martinez shuffling between positions. Maybe the Sox think Max Ramirez is already capable of playing at the big league level at first. None of these options are nearly as good as bringing in a Nick Johnson or Adrian Beltre, but it's not like the Sox are completely lost without making another move.


I agree but I think they are a contender with Beltre, Johnson, or a Lowell playing 115 or so games like last year. I don't think a Kotchman/Varitek platoon is enough. I think it gives back the gains made at shortstop.

Despite what Darren and Matt have been saying (and Shaughnessy in today's Globe) I still think this is a team capable of winning in the low to mid 90s in 2010. I think with Tampa and maybe Seattle and Texas there will be enough competition that giving away wins is not a good idea. Part of my problem is I'm not convinced Ramirez is an answer at catcher so I'm not sold this deal helps them long term.
   20. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:10 PM (#3408893)
Despite what Darren and Matt have been saying (and Shaughnessy in today's Globe) I still think this is a team capable of winning in the low to mid 90s in 2010.
To be clear, I don't expect the Red Sox to be an 86-win team. I think low 90s sounds about right, if they make the projected, less aggressive, "retooling" moves. I think, with the Red Sox core and with their payroll capabilities, we should expect more.
   21. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:23 PM (#3408900)
I agree but I think they are a contender with Beltre, Johnson, or a Lowell playing 115 or so games like last year. I don't think a Kotchman/Varitek platoon is enough. I think it gives back the gains made at shortstop.


That's probably right. If they go with Kotchman+Varitek, then they need everything else to break right to make the playoffs.
   22. karlmagnus Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:28 PM (#3408906)
I think it's very clear the Sox are being damn careful this year. Henry's hedge fund is 1/10 of its former size, so he doesn't have huge non-Sox reserves any more. The team therefore needs to make money year-to-year, and revenues are down. This looks to me like a carefully hidden economy drive. I think 90 wins is optimistic, more like 85. And I think Beltre would do damn all to address the problem.
   23. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3408908)
Remember when I hated the Lowell extension? This is why. This right here.

Anyway, I suspect that the Sox, like I, think that Lowell's pretty much done. That's why they're dumping him for an upside flyer. The man can't move, and if he's not playing a position where his defense is important / not playing defense, his bat won't scour.

The more time passes, the more it looks like the Sox are basically gonna play dice with next season. If things click, they could win 95 games again and make the playoffs -- like Ramirez breaks out, pushing Martinez to 1B and Youk to Roaming Bat -- or if they break wrong and Tampa / Baltimore / Texas / Seattle gels into something, they could end up on the outside looking in come playoff time. You'll really know that's what they're doing if they make a play for Bradley.
   24. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:31 PM (#3408910)
Beltre has been a good baseball player. A lot of his value is in his glove, though, so it's kinda hard to quantify.
   25. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 02:33 PM (#3408913)
If the Sox were really just trying to save money, they could have re-signed Alex Gonzalez on a one year deal for less than what they're paying Scutaro. The press *love* Alex Gonzalez, and wouldn't have called them out on that, and they'd have another draft pick. They might be aiming at some intermediate solution, though.
   26. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:01 PM (#3408934)
Isn't Kotchman gone?
   27. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:11 PM (#3408944)
I think you guys missed the point here. It has nothing to do with Lowell at all:

Now, the Lowell Era appears to be coming to an end. Reports have Scenic shipping off to Texas in exchange for catcher Max Ramirez. This is, of course, part of Theo's "If I can't have Hanley Ramirez, by God, I'll sign everyone else in baseball named Ramirez" master plan, which just keeps picking up speed.


From Surviving Grady. Saw on SOSH.
   28. Mattbert Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:13 PM (#3408946)
I think it's very clear the Sox are being damn careful this year. Henry's hedge fund is 1/10 of its former size, so he doesn't have huge non-Sox reserves any more. The team therefore needs to make money year-to-year, and revenues are down. This looks to me like a carefully hidden economy drive.

That's possible, but the Sox are damn careful every offseason. My hunch is they could spend money if they wished, but, like many of us, aren't too wild about what's available on the free agent market. Holliday is a player worth pursuing, but if his price is in excess of five or six years at $20M per, then the Sox are right to walk away. He's the only borderline elite player in free agency. Bay would be alright to bring back, but for no more than the advertised 4y/$60M. Even that's probably an overpay if his defense really is as poor as some seem to think. Lackey? No thanks.

My sense is that while there's money to spend, there's only one guy worth spending it on, and his price could end up being too high by virtue of the fact that he's the only guy worth spending it on. I also think the Sox do have the pieces to make a deal for Halladay or perhaps Gonzalez, but they may consider those prices too steep as well. It's a right pickle.

To be honest, I wouldn't be upset if management decides to hunker down and ride out the next couple seasons as a 90-ish win team instead of a 95-ish win team. Let some of the younger guys like Buchholz and Bard really find their feet in the majors. Figure out what Lowrie's deal is. Figure out what they have in the next class pushing its way up the farm system. The really mad free agent bonanza (which will include some important Red Sox players) is going to be next winter. It makes sense to be reasonably judicious and save their sheckles this winter, unless they complete a trade for an elite talent and spend money on extending his contract.
   29. Mattbert Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:15 PM (#3408948)
Isn't Kotchman gone?

He's not signed, but he's still arb eligible, right?
   30. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:15 PM (#3408949)
Theo's "If I can't have Hanley Ramirez, by God, I'll sign everyone else in baseball named Ramirez" master plan, which just keeps picking up speed.

So we should pencil Manny back in for LF?
   31. Sean Forman Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:20 PM (#3408956)
Carlos Delgado

Year   Age            Tm    Lg   Lev Aff   G   PA   AB   R   H  2B 3B  HR RBI  BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG   OPS
1989    17 St
.Catherines  NYPL  A_ss TOR       31       89  16   5  0               0      .180       .236
1990    18 St
.Catherines  NYPL  A_ss TOR       67      228  64  13  0               6      .281       .417
1991    19       2 Teams 2 Lgs A
-AAA TOR      133      444 126  18  2              18      .284       .455
1992    20       Dunedin  FLOR A_adv TOR 133  544  485  83 157  30  2  30 100  59  91 .324 .397 .579  .976
1993    21     Knoxville  SOUL    AA TOR 140  570  468  91 142  28  0  25 102 102  98 .303 .428 .524  .952
1994    22      Syracuse    IL   AAA TOR       85      307  98  11  0              19      .319       .541
1995    23      Syracuse    IL   AAA TOR  91  387  333  59 106  23  4  22  74  45  78 .318 .403 .610 1.013
9 Seasons                                690 2613 2394 244 725 133  8 125 295 210 271 .303 .360 .522  .881 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/10/2009.

Ramirez is about two years behind Delgado at each level, so discount him accordingly.
   32. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:26 PM (#3408961)
Henry's hedge fund is 1/10 of its former size, so he doesn't have huge non-Sox reserves any more.


Presumably, he couldn't use money in his fund as reserves for baseball use anyway.
   33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:38 PM (#3408976)
Presumably, he couldn't use money in his fund as reserves for baseball use anyway.

Clearly. Since the Red Sox are very profitable, I don't really see why Henry's other business problems should affect the budget. He can't afford to run the Red Sox at a loss, but their current payroll is far from causing an operating loss.
   34. tfbg9 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:43 PM (#3408986)
edit--removed bad info about trade.
   35. The District Attorney Posted: December 10, 2009 at 03:52 PM (#3408994)
The Rangers also have other good catchers, but nobody good enough to block Ramirez if he were even a little below average defensively.
Prior to this year, it wasn't clear that Salty and Teagarden weren't "good enough". Before that, they were both considered to have more promise than Max. And of course, when they both went out there in '09 and simultaneously stunk, that was the time Max picked to get hurt and stink worse...
   36. Paxton Crawford Ranch Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:23 PM (#3409031)
ESPN is reporting that the Sox are paying $9M of Lowell's salary. Not a huge deal, but it does make the trade look a little better.
   37. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:30 PM (#3409033)
Ramirez is about two years behind Delgado at each level, so discount him accordingly.


Sure, but name me another catcher who hit so well who didn't make the majors by age 23. I checked as many as I could think of in recent years, and there just aren't any. If we write off last year as due to injuries, then he outhit Napoli and Shoppach by pretty good margins, and Hatteberg by even more. Those are the guys who are close, who got late starts in the majors. There might be someone I'm not think of, who hit well in the minors and bombed in the majors, of course.
   38. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:34 PM (#3409040)
If they want to acquire a star player via free agency or trade this offseason, they can now shoot for either 3b, 1b, or LF - and then slot Youkilis into one of the three positions and go makeshift or platoon in the 3rd spot. Conceivably, this could create more options, thereby lowering the leverage of whoever they are dealing with (agents, other teams).
   39. Paxton Crawford Ranch Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:35 PM (#3409042)
Sure, but name me another catcher who hit so well who didn't make the majors by age 23.

Victor Martinez. He got cups of coffee at 23 and 24 but didn't get his 200th career AB until he was 25. Also another catcher whose plus bat was enough to make up for his shaky glove.
   40. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:36 PM (#3409045)
Sure, but name me another catcher who hit so well who didn't make the majors by age 23. I checked as many as I could think of in recent years, and there just aren't any. If we write off last year as due to injuries, then he outhit Napoli and Shoppach by pretty good margins, and Hatteberg by even more. Those are the guys who are close, who got late starts in the majors. There might be someone I'm not think of, who hit well in the minors and bombed in the majors, of course.


There are two problems though. First is his glove and it makes sense that teams would try to give him time to develop that. Second is the people in front of him. If you look at the teams he's been on he's been blocked by Brian McCann, Victor Martinez and then Salatalamacchia/Teagarden. When he finally had a path (last year) he was injured.

Actually, he's been behind Saltalamacchia twice, once in Atlanta then in Texas. At this point he probably hates the freakin' guy.
   41. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:45 PM (#3409052)
Conceivably, this could create more options, thereby lowering the leverage of whoever they are dealing with (agents, other teams).


Even if it doesn't lower the leverage, it increases the chance that someone out there will take less than what the Sox are willing to give.

Victor Martinez. He got cups of coffee at 23 and 24 but didn't get his 200th career PA until he was 25. Also another catcher whose plus bat was enough to make up for his shaky glove.


Martinez was a shortstop when he was signed. I'm not sure if he switched in the minors or immediately upon signing, before he came to America, but that may have also slowed him up.
   42. Casey White Posted: December 10, 2009 at 04:45 PM (#3409053)
Ramirez has had a pretty good winter ball season in Venezuela. Only a .236 BA but a .356 OBP and .473 SLG with 12 HR 28 BB 56 K in 182 AB. But I think he's mostly DHing, only been in the field for a handful of games.
   43. Textbook Editor Posted: December 10, 2009 at 06:34 PM (#3409173)
I'm going to theorize the Red Sox don't care a bit about Ramirez's glove, as long as every other pitch isn't going to the backstop. I've not seen any reports Ramirez is epically, comically bad at playing catcher, so I'm guessing the Red Sox are fine with this.

That's not to say they'd stick anyone behind the plate and call them a C, but just that I don't think they feel they need a superior glove man behind the plate if he can mash quite a bit more than the average C.

Saving the $3 million is nice. Having a non-Varitek backup plan for 2011 is even nicer.
   44. Paxton Crawford Ranch Posted: December 10, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3409232)
If Ramirez has a couple hot months in Pawtuckett, I wouldn't be surprised to see him become the 2010 backup plan.
   45. Darren Posted: December 10, 2009 at 08:11 PM (#3409309)
I think #17 addresses two of the three possible reasons for this deal. The third would be if the Sox think they can get Beltre for more than $9 mil. less than he's worth over the course of his contract. Just pulling numbers out of the air, if they think Beltre's worth 4/48 and they get him for 4/36, then making this deal and signing Beltre makes all kinds of sense, regardless of what they think of Lowell or Ramirez.

And I think that is what's playing into this more than anything else. I think they believe that getting Beltre into an actual hitters park + Beltre's great defense = him being worth more than he'll get in FA.

An earlier report from Gammons had the Red Sox and some other team trying to get Beltre down from 3/30 to 2/16. If that's even close to true, he'll be a great value.
   46. tjm1 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3409317)
An earlier report from Gammons had the Red Sox and some other team trying to get Beltre down from 3/30 to 2/16. If that's even close to true, he'll be a great value.


Let's remember, too, that Beltre is only 30. A three year deal for him doesn't have much risk.
   47. tfbg9 Posted: December 10, 2009 at 09:03 PM (#3409361)
from a Projo blog:

By DANIEL BARBARISI and JOE MCDONALD
Journal Staff Writers

Efforts to send Mike Lowell to Texas in exchange for catcher Max Ramirez are inching along, with those involved in the transaction saying at noon that the deal is roughly 75 percent done, though there are many hurdles still to overcome.

It is expected that the Red Sox still have to get ownership approval, the medicals must be reviewed, and Lowell himself has to address a few undisclosed issues, before a deal can be consummated. The Red Sox are believed to be in pursuit of free agent Adrian Beltre to replace Lowell.

Earlier this morning, Texas Rangers General Manager Jon Daniels confirmed the talks between the Red Sox and Rangers over Lowell-Ramirez swap, also noting that the deal still has a ways to go before it's final, if it is completed at all.

"We've had conversations. Both clubs understand where the other one is and what we're looking to do. At the same time, we're also both looking at alternatives and what our other options are as we go through the process," Daniels said.

The teams have been talking a trade of the 35-year-old Lowell for the 25-year-old Ramirez since yesterday afternoon. Boston would pick up a significant portion of Lowell's $12 million 2010 salary as part of the trade.

"The general parameters of the deal are relatively understood," Daniels said.

The Red Sox could pick up anywhere from $6 million to $9 million of Lowell's salary as part of the trade, and the money side of things is definitely still in play. Recently, several players have said the dollar figure is closer to $9 million.

"There's a financial component to it, but I'm not going to address that specifically," Daniels said.

Lowell's health is also an issue; he is still recovering from hip surgery in the 2008 offseason, and his range was down significantly last season.

Also, according to those close to him, Lowell was not thrilled that it has come to this -- "he signed a three-year deal to play in Boston," one person involved said, but does not appear to want to stand in the way of any trade.

Some of his teammates have also privately expressed their unhappiness at seeing the well-regarded Lowell go.

Lowell came to Boston in a trade from Florida in 2006, and immediately impressed, delivering three strong seasons for Boston before the hip surgery He was named MVP of the 2007 World Series, and subsequently signed a three-year, $37.5 million deal that is now in its final year.
   48. The Mighty Quintana Posted: December 11, 2009 at 12:21 AM (#3409559)
If Beltre is too expensive, is Troy Glaus an option? Seems like a good candidate for a Lowell-like comeback.
   49. Mattbert Posted: December 11, 2009 at 03:57 PM (#3409896)
Glaus is a bit of a butcher at third these days, is he not? If I'm not making that up (which is entirely possible, I don't know what his numbers are), then it'd have to be a heck of a comeback with the bat to make Glaus worth it.
   50. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 11, 2009 at 04:11 PM (#3409918)
Glaus had major surgery on his throwing shoulder. If he's back to the player he was before the surgery, then, sure, interesting choice. But I don't see much reason to think he will be.
   51. Artie Ziff Posted: December 11, 2009 at 04:25 PM (#3409938)
The only home run ball I've ever caught at the M.L.B. level was hit by Lowell. I hope he stays for one or two more years.
   52. OCD SS Posted: December 11, 2009 at 04:33 PM (#3409951)
Glaus had major surgery on his throwing shoulder. If he's back to the player he was before the surgery, then, sure, interesting choice. But I don't see much reason to think he will be.


I thought I read that his swing was fine, but he couldn't make the throw across the diamond. If he plays 1B and Youks moves to 3B, problem solved.
   53. Sexy Lizard Posted: December 11, 2009 at 04:49 PM (#3409991)
A 1B who can't throw at all is incredibly painful to watch. In 2004 I remember a couple of Braves going 1st to 3rd on ground outs to Bagwell, who would bounce his throws off of the pitchers mound. If Glaus really can't throw then I don't want to see him anywhere near Fenway.
   54. Fridas Boss Posted: December 11, 2009 at 04:56 PM (#3410013)
Glaus is a bit of a butcher at third these days, is he not? If I'm not making that up (which is entirely possible, I don't know what his numbers are)...

Irrespective of what the #'s turn out to be, haven't you already admitted to "making it up"?
   55. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 11, 2009 at 09:49 PM (#3410372)
Is this damn deal done yet?
   56. Mattbert Posted: December 11, 2009 at 09:54 PM (#3410375)
Irrespective of what the #'s turn out to be, haven't you already admitted to "making it up"?

It was a figure of speech. I thought his reputation as a defender had become pretty poor beginning towards the end of his Angels tenure and gotten somewhat worse over his time in Toronto and St Louis. However, I do not watch him play regularly, and he wasn't a disaster in the odd Cards game I saw when he was playing third there. So I didn't want to imply any more certainty than I actually had.

Also, if a guy has a poor defensive reputation I tend to believe it. I can't think of anyone who's supposed to be terrible yet UZR or Dewan or Pinto or Dial thinks is amazing.
   57. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 11, 2009 at 09:58 PM (#3410380)
Is this damn deal done yet?


The Globe is saying it might take 2-3 days to get all the medical stuff done. Between Lowell's hips and Ramirez' wrists there are some legitimate concerns here, these certainly won't be rubber stamp medical exams I wouldn't think.
   58. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 11, 2009 at 10:12 PM (#3410398)
these certainly won't be rubber stamp medical exams I wouldn't think.


I know, but I'm impatient, dammit.
   59. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 11, 2009 at 10:20 PM (#3410410)
I know, but I'm impatient, dammit.


We signed Atchison and traded for Boof Bonser this week. Can you really handle more transaction excitement in a short time span?
   60. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 11, 2009 at 10:30 PM (#3410426)
Right. Be still my beating heart.

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