Twice in two nights, WMP came out swinging like a madman with the bases loaded and the pitcher clearly struggling to throw strikes. One cost us a chance to come back vs. Bedard and the other ended a great 4 run rally.

What I don't get is that he doesn't even take a pitch, or two to make the guy throw a frigging fastball at him.

I'd love to know what he talks about with the coaches, cause it ain't hitting.

I'd love to know what he talks about with the coaches, cause it ain't hitting.

Or fielding.

Last year, there was some comment in the Globe about Wily Mo's unusually heavy bat and his very long swing. And there was a quote from someone from the Sox-- a coach or a FO person, possibly Epstein-- along the lines of, "We think there's a lot to like, so we don't want to mess with his approach too much."

At the time, that statement sounded reasonable. But it doesn't anymore. And Wily Mo, so far as I know, is still using an unusually heavy bat-- he is certainly still dangling that bat over his shoulder until the pitcher has released the ball. That kind of approach doesn't seem to lend itself to careful pitch selection. So why haven't the coaches worked to change this and see if they can't harness Wily Mo's power more effectively? Or have they tried and he hasn't listened?

The other thing is how much Wily's value has fallen, last year or even in the offseason he'd be a decent trade chip, now he's a project and a throw-in guy.

A lot of people blame his struggles on being called up too early due to his major league contract, I can see that, but think it might have been overcome had he been given regular PT at some point.
He's 25 and has never adjusted to being a bench player.

Does Wily Mo ever hit a fly ball that just makes it to or over the left field wall? He always looks like he's trying to hit the ball 450 feet.

I'd love to know what he talks about with the coaches, cause it ain't hitting.

Or fielding.

On the other hand, if you need to know what restaurants in the metro Boston area the coaching staff recommends, Wily Mo is your man

There were moments last year when it looked like Ortiz's and Manny's good habits were rubbing off on him. Not anymore.

I like Wily Mo. But I don't expect him to be good any time soon. Not on his b-ref comp list, but the guy Wily most reminds me of, is Jose Guillen: Dominican outfielder, came up too early, lousy plate discipline, didn't get a lot of playing time. Eventually broke through at age 27 and became a solid, sometimes marginally all-star-caliber, player. The main difference is that Guillen was always a plus defender with mediocre power, while Wily has "plus plus" power and "plus mediocre" defense. To a lesser extent he also reminds me of Carlos Lee. Wily is going to put up some good numbers for someone from ages 27-31. Probably not us, but maybe.

He's still just 25. He's two months younger than David Murphy. When Kevin Youkilis finished his age 25 season, he had a total of 208 major league at bats (all accumulated during that age 25 season) with an OPS+ of 99. Right now, in his age 25 season, Wily has 1,251 major league at bats with an OPS+ of 101. Perspective and patience, please. Yes, he looks awful right now. It will pass. Pedroia looked awful for a month there, too, but we now see it was a combination of pressing and a small sample size.

The problem with Wily Mo is not his performance. The problems are (1) lack of playing time may be stunting his development; and (2) lots of service time make him much less valuable, because he will be a free agent soon. These things are not Wily's fault.

Eric M. Van has at various times posted Wily Mo's numbers in games where he played the previous day. Even through this year, they're pretty darn good.

I agree with Toby that patience is needed and that Wily Mo will need some playing time to improve. Unfortunately, the only way he gets it is if someone on the Sox goes down with an injury. Even then, he'd probably play only part time.

So the options are to let him continue to be a lousy 4th OF (bad defense, can't put it together on offense) or trade him for beans. Dealing him for someone like Betemit, who was also blocked pretty badly, would make sense. I don't know if there's anyone else like that out there.

I hate Erik Hinske. I hate his stupid goatee. I hate his stupid defense. I hate his David McCarty-esque big stupid swing. I hate how he's not Brandon Moss. I hate how fans actually like him. I hate how we're paying 2.5 mil for this asshat (the Blue Jays are paying the other half). I hate how Francona thinks he's actually useful. I hate how he won't net us draft picks once he walks because we can't risk offering arbitration from him.

I hate everything about Erik Hinske.

He's got a 95 OPS+, which is driven down mainly by a fluky low BABIP, and he plays all four corner positions. Eric Hinske is a very useful bench bat.

I have written previously about Wily Mo Pena and hate to belabor a point, but the lad is taking a bum rap in Boston and I am compelled to come to his defense.

Wily Mo Pena is a streaky power hitter. To be effective he needs to play. Regularly.

When in Cincy Wily Mo would start out just as described above swining from his forehead to his shoetops. But over the course of regular play his strike zone management would improve a bit and force pitchers to attack him around the plate as opposed to way OFF the plate. In turn Wily would hit better. But the key is REGULAR PLAYING TIME.

If you sit him on the bench and expect Pena to be effective you are setting him for failure. He can't and won't. And as he fails he will become anxious. And as he becomes anxious he will become WORSE. Pena seems to think that the next pitch might be the very LAST that he will ever see in the major leagues so godd*mmit he better swing.

Please note that Wily has been in the major leagues forever. He never got regular playing time in the majors to generate some fancy stats to prove to people what he can do if given a chance. And when he DID get a chance AND produce the Reds trade him to the Red Sox who have proceeded to let him rot on the vine for now what is almost 2 years.

Put Wily Mo Pena in the outfield and be ready to close your eyes for the first 2-3 weeks. But after a month his defense will be average, his baserunning will be average, and his power hitting will be good with the chance to be outstanding.

Sitting him on the bench is cruel punishment for a guy who just wants to hit the d*mn baseball. Either let him do what he loves to do or let him GO for cr*ssakes.

Sincerely,

Harvey

He's got a 95 OPS+, which is driven down mainly by a fluky low BABIP, and he plays all four corner positions. Eric Hinske is a very useful bench bat.

I was thinking the same thing last night. Hadn't checked his stats in awhile, and saw the .207 BA in the box score yesterday. Of course, the .207 is low but it's tolerable then the other two numbers next to it are .311/.440. He's a valuable guy in his role, as MCofA pointed out, and his career numbers (.257/.336/.436) suggest he wouldn't kill us if he had to fill in for a few weeks at a time. One thing that Theo has almost always managed to do well is put together a good bench.

The $2.5M - well, that's what you can do when you have a payroll like the Red Sox.

Sincerely,

Harvey

Alright, HW making an appearance in ST! And, as usual, he's pretty much spot on. I don't know if I agree his D would ever get to average, but the mainpoint certainly stands.

Joe:

That is very kind of you.

But I watched Wily his entire career in Cincy. He learns by DOING. And his retention is POOR. Sitting on the bench has likely caused him to FORGET everything or most of what he learned while playing in Cincy. He has a NATURAL aptitude for one thing, hitting. Everything else needs constant reinforcement.

I saw his defense go from horrid, to kinda gross, to ho-hum, to ok in the space of three months. The Reds actually put him in centerfield, yes CENTERFIELD, for a while and he did just fine. Honest. I swear.

Wily Mo Pena has no long-term memory function. Consider him your "Memento" balllplayer.

Put him the outfield. And tell the wall to watch out for itself. 'Cause when Wily has a full head of steam it ain't Wily who is going to feel the pain of a collision.

Consider him your "Memento" balllplayer

That, Wok, is a nickname that should stick.

That, Wok, is a nickname that should stick.

Dammit. I mentioned this in chatter, but I was hoping Jermaine Dye would come to the Red Sox, so there would be a second "JD" I could bestow female fisrt names upon.

Also, that is a good one.

Would Milwaukee be interested in Wily Mo?

IronChef:

Well, I would be quite pleased that if once Geoff Jenkins left as a Free agent the Brewers picked Wily Mo up as insurance. However, Pena's defensive issues would likely cause Melvin to take a pass. His pitching staff has so many issues I don't think Doug could rationalize making a difficult situation worse even in the short-term.

I saw his defense go from horrid, to kinda gross, to ho-hum, to ok in the space of three months. The Reds actually put him in centerfield, yes CENTERFIELD, for a while and he did just fine. Honest. I swear.

red sox put him at centerfield a bit last year when coco went down. he actually started to hit a bit when he got regular playing time. but, he really doesn't have a spot on this team. some needs to just stick him in LF or DH and let him hit. he'll be fine.

Well, I would be quite pleased that if once Geoff Jenkins left as a Free agent the Brewers picked Wily Mo up as insurance. However, Pena's defensive issues would likely cause Melvin to take a pass. His pitching staff has so many issues I don't think Doug could rationalize making a difficult situation worse even in the short-term.

But Gallardo is badass!

Eric M. Van has at various times posted Wily Mo's numbers in games where he played the previous day. Even through this year, they're pretty darn good.

Not by my reckoning, they aren't. I looked at his numbers in games where he played the previous game (if not the previous day); so if he had played five consecutive games, I only looked at the last four. Here's what I got:

70 PA, 64 AB, 6 BB, 22 SO, .203/.271/.406.

That's tick worse than his overall stats of .221/.289/.393.

Hmm, edit function doesn't want to work. I wanted to add that I only looked at games he started and a couple in which he came in in an early inning and got a game's worth of ABs.

I'm never going to cease being shocked that the Sox didn't trade Wily Mo to a bad team like the Pirates for a 4th OF and a spare reliever or something. It seems like such an obvious thing for both sides...

Any chance that his remaining on the team signals a return of the annual summer Trade Manny?!!?! event?

Post 23:

I SUSPECT that Theo figured Drew or Coco or someone would be lost for a long time and that Pena would evolve into this fantastic fallback position making Theo look like an ubergenius. When none of those things took place right away Wily's skill set atrophied so now neither his manager or fan base have any patience for his learning curve making Pena out to be some "loser". But Epstein knows that Pena has skill just like about every other GM or otherwise why would the guy have been in the majors for umpteen years despite rarely getting to play most of the time? So TE has put himself into a pickle in that he has this talented player, his plan for integrating the player into the mix didn't happen, now the situation is such that it would take a car accident involving the entire outfield to force the manager to put Pena in the lineup every day, and the last thing Epstein wants to do is trade him for nothing and see him hit 45 homers in a season for somebody else.

Quite the conundrum. It's all way cool when you can snag a David Ortiz under those circumstances. Ain't so fun when it could happen to you.

That's my call on the situation anyway.......

Speaking of reviled Red Sox, what was a better nickname?

Jose Awfulman or Jose 0-For-Ten

Harvey -

I think that's exactly right. The further complicating factor is that with his contract, there's no way Wily Mo slips through waivers, so the Red Sox trading options in August are very limited. He's not going to be on the playoff roster, so they really need to let him go. I figure that happens around the time they snatch up Kielty.

of course, they could have just not signed drew. of course, wily mo in RF every day would have been a scary sight.

But Epstein knows that Pena has skill just like about every other GM or otherwise why would the guy have been in the majors for umpteen years despite rarely getting to play most of the time?

I remember a Bill James comment about Sammy Sosa. He thought it shouldn't have been that big a surprise Sammy broke through because a huge percentage of players brought to the major league level at that age (almost 50% ?) ended up with HOF careers.

I think Harvey is right, and going back a bit further, Wily Mo was probably also considered a good in-house candidate to take over LF were Manny to be traded last offseason. Wily Mo was Plan B at each outfield position and DH this season, but he's had the bad fortune of all four Plan A's working out.

At least the Sox got Bronson Arroyo for nothing, which could end up being slightly less than what they get for Pena.

Pops:

Well, part of Pena's career was impacted by Jim Bowden getting himself into a pickle of after having acquired Pena if he tried to send him down he would have lost him. So Wily Mo sat on the bench until the Reds other outfield options got hurt or failed. And when finally SUCCEEDS Pena gets traded.

And now he sits again. Some baseball ruling body in the great beyond really hates Wily Mo Pena.

Some baseball ruling body in the great beyond really hates Wily Mo Pena.

Maybe the baseball Gods don't like it when 17 year old undrafted free agents demand Major Leauge contracts.

What are the teams that can and would be willing to play Wily Mo Pena everyday? A team has to be bad and willing to admit it to its fans to take a chance on WMP. It seems that Pitt and KC are more likely to take the established mediocre FA than take a chance on a player.

Cowboy:

Are you suggesting that's it appropriate the 25 year old Pena be condemned to the life of a journeyman player for a single decision as a teenager?

This seems like an unduly harsh reaction to someone who was, after all, SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD.

But perhaps I misundertand your post.......

What are the teams that can and would be willing to play Wily Mo Pena everyday? A team has to be bad and willing to admit it to its fans to take a chance on WMP. It seems that Pitt and KC are more likely to take the established mediocre FA than take a chance on a player.

I think the White Sox are a good fit, particularly if Dye leaves. They have no offense out there.

Maybe the baseball Gods don't like it when 17 year old undrafted free agents demand Major Leauge contracts.

I might be wrong, but wasn't there some kind of legal issue that made a major league contract necessary, rather than Pena's "demands"?

I can't find the details but I know Wily was signed by the Mets, that contract was voided, and he was then signed by the Yanks. The Yanks traded him to the Redd for Drew Henson and another player who never mattered.

Are you suggesting that's it appropriate the 25 year old Pena be condemned to the life of a journeyman player for a single decision as a teenager?

Yeah, I thought it came across as kind of cynical, which was not my intent. I like Wily Mo. I hated that contract since I learned about it, I thought it was stupid and bad for his development, and it was my understanding that it was his agents decision, althgough McGriffy may be right, I'm not sure. However, I do think being rushed to the majors, as raw as he was, has doomed Wily's early career. I do not think he deserves it, but unfortunately, he has become some tragic Greek hero, with great power, unable to use it due to fate. I do not hold Pena responsible for his contract, but I do hold the contract responsible for what has happened to Pena.

I can't find the details but I know Wily was signed by the Mets, that contract was voided, and he was then signed by the Yanks. The Yanks traded him to the Redd for Drew Henson and another player who never mattered.

The issue with the Mets signing of him was that MLB questioned some of the procedures around the contract (specifically if his father actually signed the thing, IIRC). There had, again IIRC, been issues with a contract he'd signed with the Marlins previously, too.

After this he had a lot of attention and was hugely sought after, and signed the contract with the Yankees.

Are you suggesting that's it appropriate the 25 year old Pena be condemned to the life of a journeyman player for a single decision as a teenager?

The only thing condemning him to the life of a Journeyman is his play. If he played better baseball, he would be a starter somewhere.

Matthew:

Wily Mo Pena isn't quite Rube Waddell, but he is the closest thing possible in the 21st century. It's a Catch-22 for the lad. He needs to play better to play regularly but can't play better UNTIL he plays regularly.

So basically, he's f*cked with an elephant d*ck.

I find that..................disappointing. Because when he DOES play and is playing WELL he's a lot of fun to watch.

If he played better baseball, he would be a starter somewhere.

He outhit Coco, Trot and Youkilis last year and got less ABs then all of them. If he played on just about any other team after last year, he would have been a starter by now.

I think the White Sox are a good fit, particularly if Dye leaves. They have no offense out there.

I'd nominate the Giants, where he can be Bonds's successor in left. Heck, they put up with Pedro Feliz's lack of discipline all these years, and Wily Mo has ten times his talent as hitter.

He outhit Coco, Trot and Youkilis last year and got less ABs then all of them. If he played on just about any other team after last year, he would have been a starter by now.

So Wily Mo can play 1b? or 3b? He can play CF like Crisp who is a legit GG candidate patroling the ol cowpasture? He has the performance history that Trot Nixon had comming into last season? Outhitting during a season isn't a reason to expect someone to add more value during the course of the season, which is what you would have had to do to play Wily Mo over any of the players you mentioned.

So basically, he's f*cked with an elephant d*ck.

While that may be true, he himself is the reason he is bruised and swollen. I understand your point that he may need to play regularly to produce, I'll grant it - though I'm not sure it is true. That doesn't change the situation though. Being able to produce and execute consistantly is one of the things that seperates major league players from minor league players, so in my eyes that makes it a skill. It's a skill he is lacking, and because he is lacking the skill he is stuck where he is right now. If he had that skill or if he played better baseball he likly would have found himself on another club.

Matthew:

Wily was signed by the Mets, then the Yanks, was traded to the Reds, and then traded to the Red Sox.

And he was so valuable the Red Sox traded a decent pitcher for him.

Well, I explained why he's not on another club in a previous post. Theo knows he's valuable and won't let him go.

So basically he has satisfied your conditions. Any other ideas??

So Wily Mo can play 1b?

Probably.

or 3b?

I forget where I said anything about Mike Lowell.

He can play CF like Crisp who is a legit GG candidate patroling the ol cowpasture?

That's not really true, of course. Crisp wasn't good last year, and has been good this year. I'd take Wily and his upside over good defense and a AAA bat.

He has the performance history that Trot Nixon had comming into last season?

Yeah, fringy, injury prone outfielders who won't be on the team next year are definately the kinds of players you want to start over 24 year olds with serious power potential.

Outhitting during a season isn't a reason to expect someone to add more value during the course of the season, which is what you would have had to do to play Wily Mo over any of the players you mentioned.

Sure, if you ignore the facts, most notably age, value, and upside, you have a great point.

You should go back to pissing off the the PC primates with your social commentary because you have nothing here.

reading cowboy popup's commentary on the red sox is, as always, hilarious.

Projected EQA:
.282 - Crisp
.291 - Youkilis
.282 - Pena

Yup, Pena definitly deserved to start over these guys based on out hitting him last year. Try again John Wayne. Actually don't. Since I'm talking about optimal talent allignment asking a Yankee fan is like asking a Cubs fan about winning winning a world series.

Chris - Actually everything John Wayne their says is hilarious. And unlike me, he isn't trying to f with people, he just plain doesn't get it.

Mr. Wallbanger, he hasn't played well and really that is the only condition I want from Mr. Pena. Yes, I am a simple man.

Well, Wily Mo can't just "turn it on". So he will always frustrate in a bench role.

So Wily Mo can play 1b?

Probably.

The Sox tried this out, in the minors and in spring. He can't. He was terrible.

Exactly how many times last season was there a situation where Crisp and/or Nixon was sucking and Wily Mo was wasting away on the bench? He played a ton in April and May because Coco was hurt; he played a ton in August when Nixon was hurt. He didn't play at all in June and most of July because HE was hurt. In September, which was the only month when all three were available, he had the second most starts of the trio.

.282 - Crisp

Nailed that one.

And unlike me, he isn't trying to f with people, he just plain doesn't get it.

Sure thing MHS.

What is it with people getting clever with my handle? I guess it's meant to be condescending.

There doesn't seem to be any new news here. Wily Mo needs to play in order to develop, like just about every other player. The Red Sox acquired him and didn't really give him a chance to play full time, so it was probably a bad idea to acquire him.

One thing to note, though, is that Wily Mo would have had a great chance to play full time last year but got injured right at the time the other OFers went down. So in a way, it was wise to have him around as depth (although Arroyo's depth would have been far more valuable).

There doesn't seem to be any new news here. Wily Mo needs to play in order to develop, like just about every other player. The Red Sox acquired him and didn't really give him a chance to play full time, so it was probably a bad idea to acquire him.

To the extent they ever had a role for him, it was as a platoon player to spell Nixon or fill in when Trot inevitably would get injured. I noted at the time that this was a bad idea for a variety of reasons and that in general a guy who really should be a DH probably isn't a good acquisition on a team that already has David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, especially if you're giving up anything of value to get him.

AG,

I think that's a good assessment. When the Red Sox acquired him, they had to think either a) he was a better fielder than it appeared or b) they were about to get rid of Manny. Otherwise, it was pretty foolish.

HW is probably right, but there are hundreds of guys who's major league careers never took off because of inconsistent playing time.

While I don't doubt WMP would be better with more PT, even with his power I think he's a far cry from som of the company some people want to put him with, IMO he'd be lucky to be Ruben Sierra.

I'd love to see him turn into Jose Guillen and I think there's a decent chance of that.

Hmmm, I can't see it, certainly not in the field.

Plus, are you willing to wait though 2-4 more years of this to find out?

I guess my problem with this (from a RS fan's POV) is that the Red Sox are much better off already at every position WMP can play, and since he's proved he no bench player, they have no reason to keep him.

Pena could very well have a Rob Deer-like career...on a bad team. I hope the give him a chance somewhere else.

No, I thought we'd just trade him for Aaron Harang. :)