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   1. Rough Carrigan Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:20 AM (#2346024)
The Sox tacked on a couple runs, but I was very curious when it was 4-1 after 8 innings. I was wondering if Tito would bother to use Papelbon for the cheapie save. After the Sox tacked on 2 more runs, Donnelly, who'd been warming in the 8th, came in to pitch the 9th. Does anyone know whether Papelbon warmed up to pitch the 9th?
   2. Darren Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:26 AM (#2346033)
Pap probably could stand the rest, so I wouldn't be surprised if he stayed in the pen with a 3-run lead. Don't know if he was warming.

I like it if Donnelly was warming to get the cheapie save, but not if he was brought in specifically for mop-up. He does seem to get a ton of mop-up, although I think that's just been flukey. I think he and Okie are Tito's two favorite setup men right now, and rightly so.
   3. chris p Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:33 AM (#2346039)
As for me, I’m pretty darn happy with the usage of Papelbon so far.

who are you and what have you done with darren?
   4. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:40 AM (#2346046)
Donnelly started throwing at the beginning of the eighth, once Okajima entered the game. Papelbon joined him after a batter. It seemed a pretty clear statement of who the top three relievers are (if that hadn't already become clear in the Yankee series). As to whether it portends any cheapie saves for Donnelly or Okajima, I don't know - could be read either way, really.

I contend that John Farrell is exercising a lot of control over the bullpen usage, and he's just got better instincts for this than Tito.
   5. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:40 AM (#2346047)
I've come up with a few guidelines... not sure what people think

1) Papelbon should be not be used more than 4 times a week, and 3 days in a row.
2) If it's not a save situation (aka ridiculous low leverage), Papelbon should not be used.
3) Papelbon should pitch a MAXIMUM two innings in an outing. If Papelbon pitches two innings, he should get the day off the next day no matter what.
4) Personally I think the 7th inning is a little too early to be bringing in Papelbon, so he should be restricted to usage in the 8th and 9th innings in high-leverage situations.
5) If Papelbon comes in the 8th and the Red Sox score a shitteload of runs, which translates into a dramatic decrease in leverage, Papelbon should be taken out of the game and another pitcher be brought in to finish the game. How dramatic in decrease is up for discussion, but I'm going to go with a 3 run gap to start with.

I know ESPN has Papelbon's Game log. If the thread header could have Papelbon and Okajima's Game log, that would be fantastic so we can track it in-thread.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the support.
   6. Rough Carrigan Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:41 AM (#2346048)
Donnelly was warming up as Okajima went in to pitch, so he'd have been brought in if Hideki'd had trouble. It was a pretty natural choice to bring him in for the 9th after he'd already warmed up. Okajima's stats showed he was always a 1 inning guy in NPB.

I'm just curious if Papelbon ever warmed up when the score was 4-1 and the Sox about to bat in the top of the 9th. I'd *love* to see that Tito wasn't steering even cheapie saves to Papelbon.
   7. Darren Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2346054)
Rough,

He might have just had Pap up in case of trouble. What if Okie get's a couple guys on? Wouldn't Pap be likely to come in for his patented 1st and 3rd, 1 out in the 8th, appearance?

I like this usage so far, but I only wish they'd use guys for more than 1 IP at a time.
   8. PJ Martinez Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:52 AM (#2346055)
Is everyone just being nice about the manuel/manual thing? Is there a joke I'm not getting?

Nice to see that Okajima and Donnelly have secured the prime set-up roles. They've earned them.
   9. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:54 AM (#2346057)
I just assumed Darren read at a Grade 5 level.
   10. Darren Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:54 AM (#2346058)
What are you talking about PJ?
   11. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:58 AM (#2346061)
I just assumed Darren read at a Grade 5 level.

That's funnier if you know what he looks like.
   12. Darren Posted: April 26, 2007 at 03:01 AM (#2346065)
Fly, I was going to use that line in the chatter when you asking Phil about shirt sizes. But I figured you'd left already. Hah.

And I read at a very high level--it's my righting dat is teh childish.
   13. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: April 26, 2007 at 03:05 AM (#2346067)
I'm trying to decide if that's ever going to get old, and if it was ever not old in the first place.
   14. tfbg9 Posted: April 26, 2007 at 03:37 AM (#2346095)
Alex Cora, 2007: .368 .429 .684...a good little ballplayer!

Wok's rules are OK with me.
   15. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: April 26, 2007 at 09:09 AM (#2346181)
Let's talk about how Schilling almost gave up a 3 run homer when we were up 4-1...

That would have been disaster considering the strengths of the bullpen right now.
   16. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 26, 2007 at 10:33 AM (#2346184)
Btw, is Franocna overusing Okajima?

I mean, 3 nights in a row? That's just wrong.
   17. Dave Cyprian Posted: April 26, 2007 at 11:09 AM (#2346189)
Wok - I assume you would want to use Paps in certain tie ballgames, no?
   18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 26, 2007 at 12:00 PM (#2346199)
Relievers throw in three games in a row all the time. You don't want it to happen often, but it's perfectly normal usage. And this was the Yankee series - you wanted JC Romero facing Giambi in the eighth inning on Sunday?
   19. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 26, 2007 at 12:28 PM (#2346212)
Wok - I assume you would want to use Paps in certain tie ballgames, no?

You assume correctly. Which tie games, I have no idea though.

you wanted JC Romero facing Giambi in the eighth inning on Sunday?

This is why we should have a reliever that's better than JC Romero
   20. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 26, 2007 at 12:44 PM (#2346219)
We do, his name is Hideki Okajima. The number of teams that have a #2 lefty or #3 righty good enough to face Jason Giambi with the game on the line is vanishingly slim. I think your expectations are deeply unrealistic.
   21. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 26, 2007 at 01:25 PM (#2346241)
We do, his name is Hideki Okajima. The number of teams that have a #2 lefty or #3 righty good enough to face Jason Giambi with the game on the line is vanishingly slim. I think your expectations are deeply unrealistic.


What were his pitch counts the previous couple of days?

The biggest problem with that inning was that Matsuzaka didn't get A-Rod to lead off the inning. Had he done so, Okajima would have only had to face 2 batters, and Donnelly would have come out with 2 outs, and I woudln't be makign such a big deal out of this. The second biggest problem with that inning was that ridiculous BS route Coco took
   22. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: April 26, 2007 at 02:14 PM (#2346268)
I think the bullpen, as well as it's management, looks pretty damn good so far, although I take this to be partly a function of having some decent starters who are generally going a little deeper into games and allowing the better pitchers in the bullpen to shine. Okajima has been way better than I expected.

The only thing not going well so far is the Tavarez Rotation Project. How many more starts do people think he'll get until Lester/Hansack/Pauley/AAA filler is called up? Or is the job pretty much his permanently, due to not being able or willing to send down or cut Snyder to make room for another starter?
   23. Mike Cariglia Posted: April 26, 2007 at 04:57 PM (#2346401)
I'm just curious if Papelbon ever warmed up when the score was 4-1 and the Sox about to bat in the top of the 9th. I'd *love* to see that Tito wasn't steering even cheapie saves to Papelbon.


Don't think I saw this answered, Papelbon was warming yesterday when it was 4-1.
   24. RobertMachemer Posted: April 26, 2007 at 05:09 PM (#2346408)
This is why we should have a reliever that's better than JC Romero
But I do not believe we will get a better reliever until we have a triumphant video.
   25. Mister High Standards Posted: April 26, 2007 at 05:13 PM (#2346413)
Papelbon should pitch a MAXIMUM two innings in an outing.


I think it would be an extreme situation for me to want Paps to get 6 outs, during the regular season. Very rare.
   26. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: April 26, 2007 at 05:31 PM (#2346433)
But I do not believe we will get a better reliever until we have a triumphant video.

But we will not have a triumphant video without a better reliever!
   27. Darren Posted: April 27, 2007 at 02:23 AM (#2346966)
Papelbon used with a 3-run lead tonight, but he probably could use the work. Also, I thought it was good to get him a low-pressure situation to work on his control. Still gave up a walk, but again looked very tough to hit. They can still use him for two games this weekend in any combination except Fri/Sat.
   28. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 27, 2007 at 04:30 AM (#2347021)
Yeah, what's with the Papelbon walks?

Although critizing Papelbon for walks right now is kind of like the guy in the crwod watching Jesus walking on water and then yelling "hey, can't you swim?"

This might get him in trouble in the end.

I don't mind getting Papelbon the cheapie save tonight... He hasn't been used in 3 days, I woudl have sent out Piniero, but it really doens't matter. Papelbon only used 15 pitches right?

I don't expect Papelbon to be used Saturday anyway, since i expect a blowout against us.
   29. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 28, 2007 at 12:58 PM (#2348225)
Had Papelbon come out today in the 9th I would blown an artery somewhere.
   30. Darren Posted: April 28, 2007 at 01:04 PM (#2348230)
Well, I really liked that they didn't do the "he was warming up anyway so let's bring him in!" Good move.
   31. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 30, 2007 at 10:14 AM (#2349826)
Papelbon came out today for 1 IP up 3 runs against the Yankees after 2 days of rest. Usage approved
   32. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: April 30, 2007 at 03:13 PM (#2349907)
Usage approved

I agree. Especially against dangerous hitting teams like the Yankees, and with rest and a day off the next day, I like the Paps usage on the cheapo three-run saves. Helps my fantasy team a little, too.
   33. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: April 30, 2007 at 03:30 PM (#2349913)
Is it just me, or do the Sox match up Papelbon with the heart of the opponents order more often than not? That's an aspect of leverage that I don't think that vanilla WPA takes into account.
   34. villageidiom Posted: April 30, 2007 at 04:18 PM (#2349949)
According to ESPN.com, here's who he's faced so far:
Batting Order Position:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
At
-Bats plus walks:      3  2  4  4  4  5  5  4  4 


They didn't have PA on the splits, but AB+BB should be close enough.
   35. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: April 30, 2007 at 05:40 PM (#2350035)
OK, thanks, vi. I didn't know where I could find that info.
   36. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 03, 2007 at 02:31 AM (#2352975)
Papelbon 35 pitch blown save yesterday. Obviously he was supposed to come out.

Papelbon better not be hurt and pull that 'pitch through the pain' BS.
   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 04, 2007 at 12:11 PM (#2354176)
so, two days off, no clear reports on anything, just for my own mental health i'd like to see Papelbon pitch tonight and do good.
   38. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 05, 2007 at 04:16 AM (#2355030)
He did OK tonight.
   39. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 07, 2007 at 05:39 AM (#2356839)
Papelbon out with a one run lead in the 9th after one day of rest. Prior to that Okajima threw 1 1/3 innings with that similar lead.

Usage approved.
   40. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 12, 2007 at 09:35 PM (#2362027)
Papelbon out with a NINE RUN LEAD today in the 9th, but hasn't bene used in at least 3 nights.

I would have liked it better had he came into the game earlier when it was still close though.
   41. Darren Posted: May 12, 2007 at 09:41 PM (#2362033)
Good usage today. Kept him in his usual role (9th inning), but got him some work that he needed.
   42. Miko Supports Shane's Spam Habit Posted: May 12, 2007 at 11:23 PM (#2362091)
CBW took a look at Papelbon's mechanics...nothing definitive, but he says the changes from 06 to 07 are consistent with someone struggling with shoulder problems.

As always with CBW's breakdowns, it's an interesting read.
   43. Darren Posted: May 15, 2007 at 10:54 PM (#2365076)
Here is a really nice article from THT: How are closers being leveraged?

As a quick-and-dirty way to correct for this, we can ratio a pitcher's gLI (the leverage when he enters a game) to the LI (the average per-plate-appearance leverage) of his bullpen mates.

Pitcher Team gLI/Team LI
J.J. Putz* Mariners 2.26
Joakim Soria* Royals 2.25
Jon Papelbon* Red Sox 1.98
Trevor Hoffman* Padres 1.92
Brian Stokes Devil Rays 1.92
Joe Nathan* Twins 1.9
Akinori Otsuka* Rangers 1.86
Al Reyes* Devil Rays 1.84
J. Isringhausen*Cardinals 1.84
Jack Taschner Giants 1.82


As you can see, Francona's usage of Pap scores very high here. One thing working in his favor is that they haven't had a ton of close games, so he probably has a little more leeway to pick and choose his spots.
   44. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 16, 2007 at 02:34 AM (#2365448)
I could have done with Papelbon coming in today down two runs instead of Donnelly.
   45. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 16, 2007 at 04:03 AM (#2365511)
Down two runs in the eighth? That's basically never ever going to happen, and rightly so, really.
   46. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 16, 2007 at 07:46 AM (#2365555)
Have seen Papelbon out once for a tie game yet?

I think the only game Papelbon has pitched in a tie situation was when he blew the save against Oakland he made the game tied.
   47. villageidiom Posted: May 16, 2007 at 12:20 PM (#2365573)
According to BB-Ref he's only come in when ahead this year.
   48. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 17, 2007 at 10:53 PM (#2367310)
Okajima in the 8th, Papelbon in the 9th, 1 run game, can't even remember when the last time it was out, the 1st game of a double header.

Are they available for the second game of the doubleheader? I'd be wary that's for sure. I'd say Okajima is available as a LOOGY only, and Papelbon I woul dmake available as a ROOGY.
   49. Schilling's Sprained Ankiel Posted: May 18, 2007 at 04:16 AM (#2367926)
I think we need an Okajima usage manual. He seems not to get much of a rest.
   50. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 18, 2007 at 06:30 AM (#2368004)
Second game of a double header, Save situation, Papelbon was not used, Okajima was used as the closer.

Yeah, we need an Okajiam usage manual.
   51. villageidiom Posted: May 18, 2007 at 11:11 AM (#2368026)
The Okajima usage manual appears to be, "Don't mess with Papelbon's shoulder."
   52. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: May 18, 2007 at 03:30 PM (#2368194)
Okajima's ERA+ is 996. That's just cool.
   53. Darren Posted: May 19, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2369061)
Mentioned this is the game thread but even after his usage last night, Okajima's on pace for about 77 appearances and 83 IP. That first number is a wee bit high, but the 2nd is pretty normal. It seems like he gets used a lot only because the Sox use so few relievers this year and he's often one of them.
   54. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 23, 2007 at 04:47 AM (#2375554)
Okajima out with 5 run lead in 8th, gave up one run.
Papelbon out with 4 run lead in 9th, gave up 2 walks but no runs.

both that 3 days of rest.

I say meh.
   55. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 26, 2007 at 05:30 AM (#2379478)
Terry sent Okajima and Papelbon out with 4 run leads in Texas with 2 days off. Outings were quick.

If the outings were quick, I woudl have called into the "Terry Francona Fatwah Hotline"
   56. tfbg9 Posted: May 26, 2007 at 04:35 PM (#2379614)
They're not automatons Wokkie...they need to pitch to not suck IIRC, both had neen idle since Tuesday.

Oh, the hubris!
   57. tfbg9 Posted: May 26, 2007 at 04:37 PM (#2379615)
*been*
   58. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 26, 2007 at 04:54 PM (#2379623)
I thought that was a good opportunity to continue Delcarmen's tryout, though. Farrell has been really good so far about trying out all his new arms, and I thought that would have been a good use of some of those middle innings last night.
   59. Darren Posted: May 26, 2007 at 06:08 PM (#2379667)
Why do you think Farrell's calling the shots here? After the initial creative use of Papelbon (sometimes in the 8th, etc), they've reverted back to automatically burning through a pitcher per IP with a loogy-type appearance thrown in. Even Snyder, the long man, is usually only in for 1 IP.

I'm glad they got Pap in last night. He may need just a bit more work in order to stay sharp. No doubt they are walking a fine line with him and seem to do so reasonably well.
   60. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 26, 2007 at 06:25 PM (#2379678)
Why do you think Farrell's calling the shots here? After the initial creative use of Papelbon (sometimes in the 8th, etc), they've reverted back to automatically burning through a pitcher per IP with a loogy-type appearance thrown in. Even Snyder, the long man, is usually only in for 1 IP.
I didn't think that Farrell was calling the shots because of multi-inning appearances. Francona likes multi-inning appearances, relative to most MLB managers.

I thought he was calling the shots because (a) the high-lev tryout for Snyder and Lopez, (b) the demotion of Timlin and the promotion of Okajima, and (c) the currently happening demotion of Romero and Pineiro in favor of Snyder and Lopez. It was his willingness to give a chance right out of the gate to each of his pitchers that seemed un-Francona to me. There was a strict trial period, a set of decisions, and now we have a bullpen. Good bullpens aren't built with creative usage, they're built by identifying and using good pitchers. That's where I see Farrell making a difference.
   61. Darren Posted: May 26, 2007 at 06:32 PM (#2379684)
I thought he was calling the shots because (a) the high-lev tryout for Snyder and Lopez, (b) the demotion of Timlin and the promotion of Okajima, and (c) the currently happening demotion of Romero and Pineiro in favor of Snyder and Lopez.



I don't follow this at all. I don't think Snyder's gotten many high-lev chances and I think Francona has used Lopez similarly to how he used him last year. Has Timlin been demoted? I don't see that either. I've seen them try to ease him back into pitching in low-lev situations. I admit, I may be reading the Snyder thing wrong. If he is, in fact, going to be used as a middle man now, I like that idea a lot. Pineiro to long relief also makes some sense.

(Also don't see any evidence that Francona like multi-inning appearances more than other managers. Maybe similarly, but not more.)
   62. tfbg9 Posted: May 26, 2007 at 07:17 PM (#2379714)
I thought that was a good opportunity to continue Delcarmen's tryout, though. Farrell has been really good so far about trying out all his new arms, and I thought that would have been a good use of some of those middle innings last night.


Well, it seems to be Paps-Oki-Donelly-Snyder, with Lopez as the Loogy who has loogied well, for the bullpen innings when the team is ahead, depending on how far the starter takes the game, right? This ranking seems like the one to go with at the moment, right? Snyder, the 6th inning guy, had not gotten into a game since 5/20 before last night. Why would MDC's need to gain sharpness be be a higher imperative than Snyder's? I wanted that W nailed down last night, and Tito (now over .500 lifetime) made the logical bullpen string tugs.

Unless you wanted Dice out after the 4th and MDC in?
   63. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 27, 2007 at 02:38 AM (#2380187)
I was thinking Snyder would finish the game yesterday.
   64. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:07 AM (#2380247)
Unless you wanted Dice out after the 4th and MDC in?
I felt that Manny D could handle either Donnelly's or Okajima's assignment. Throw an inning with a 5-run lead. He can do that.

-Tonight looks like good evidence that Lopez has surpassed Romero on the food chain. Though he needs to actually get the outs in the future.

-I liked the way that Francona/Farrell used only one of Papelbon or Okajima, so they have one available if there's a save situation tomorrow.
   65. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 30, 2007 at 03:56 AM (#2384100)
3 games have since passed: Papelbon in the 9th, Papelbon in the 9th (shaky), Okajima ni the 9th.
   66. Darren Posted: May 30, 2007 at 10:37 AM (#2384190)
Pap getting used with 3 run leads is not very good news.
   67. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 30, 2007 at 10:39 AM (#2384192)
Pap getting used with 3 run leads and looking like krap is not very good news.
   68. dave h Posted: May 30, 2007 at 01:37 PM (#2384255)
Any less than a three run lead the other day and he blows the save.
   69. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: May 30, 2007 at 01:53 PM (#2384276)
Thank god Okajima has worked out so well so far. What a find he has been. I just hope Francona doesn't wind up Proctor/Gordon-ing him. He's on pace for about 74 innings though, which doesn't seem excessive.

I have to say, I had huge concerns about this bullpen going into the season, and they have pitched better than my wildest expectations.
   70. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 30, 2007 at 02:15 PM (#2384297)
If Papelbon's armslot got any lower, we might as well convert him into a submariner.
   71. Darren Posted: May 30, 2007 at 10:48 PM (#2384917)
Maybe he's been talking to his brother.

I don't understand the fascination with the armslot. He's been K'ing 2+ guys per appearance and not walking as many as he was earlier. Yes, guys are also getting hits off of him, but that seems to have a lot do with approach. They seem to be looking for 1st pitch fastballs these days. Pap and Tek will just have to adjust.
   72. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 10, 2007 at 09:15 AM (#2398995)
Umm... yeah, havne' tupdated in a while.

Against Yankees: 5 run lead blah
Against Yankees: Tie game gave up winning run blah
didn't pitch for 5 days
Got 3 outs tonight w/ 1 run lead, 2K's, 1 HBP, 1 hit. Meh.
   73. Darren Posted: June 10, 2007 at 05:37 PM (#2399134)
You're being too kind.

Using Pap on June 2 in a 5-run game meant that Pap had to come back for a 2nd day in a row to pitch in a close game. It also meant that he couldn't be used on June 4 in a close game. Really poor usage overall. He also failed to get him work in the next two games, both which were close.

Since using Papelbon in the 8th a couple times early on, Francona hasn't done a particularly good job in using him. Pap has basically been your run-of-the-mill 1 inning closer, only with limitations on how often he can pitch.
   74. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 13, 2007 at 01:53 AM (#2402167)
"blah" is not a word for kind.

Anyway, Papelbon out today in a 1 run game after 2 days of rest.

Approved.
   75. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 18, 2007 at 10:51 AM (#2407834)
TERRIBLE usage of Okajima today. Third day in a row, and with a FOUR RUN LEAD???

If we lose any of the next 4 games due to Okajima unavailability/Okajima suckage, I'm blaming Francona.
   76. villageidiom Posted: June 18, 2007 at 11:52 AM (#2407848)
TERRIBLE usage of Okajima today. Third day in a row, and with a FOUR RUN LEAD???
The only defense I have for it, and it's not a particularly strong one, is that once Vizquel got on you need to get each of the next three out or face a number of scenarios, of which the most favorable is Bonds at the plate with two runners on base and the tying run on deck. The usual reason not to throw your ace relievers out there with a 4-run lead is that anyone can get three outs before giving up four runs, but Bonds could make any situation a bit more high-leverage than what we're used to.

Again, it's not a strong defense.
   77. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 20, 2007 at 01:06 PM (#2410619)
After one day of rest, Tito sends Okajima out with 1 man on with a four run lead. Then Papelbon finished the 9th.

What does Okajiam need to do to get some time off? Frak.
   78. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 23, 2007 at 05:47 AM (#2413864)
2 days of rest, 2-1 game, Lopez starts the 7th against the lefty, gave up a hit, Manny D gets teh 7th, Okajima gets the 8th, Papelbon gets the 9th.

w00t
   79. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 23, 2007 at 12:24 PM (#2413911)
IP Projections for the Sox pen:

59 G, 59 IP - Papelbon
74 G, 83 IP - Okajima
61 G, 47 IP - Donnelly
59 G, 68 IP - Pineiro
56 G, 37 IP - Lopez
50 G, 55 IP - Snyder

Basically, Okajima needs a bit of a slowdown, but it won't take too much to get him down to a slightly more reasonable rate. All the other work is being spread very well, and obviously the starters are a big reason for that.

I love that they gave Manny D a tryout last night, instead of going with Timlin or Snyder, and I think Manny might have showed enough to earn another look.
   80. Darren Posted: June 25, 2007 at 12:48 AM (#2416170)
Love to see Pap pitch more than 1 IP some time; same with Okajima. Otherwise, pretty decent on usage.
   81. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:12 AM (#2416187)
My guess is that Papelbon will pitch more than an inning either (a) in the playoffs or (b) after the Sox drop ~10 games to the Yankees. Until then, I think babying his shoulder is the way to go, and the way the Sox will go.

I think Tito might have kept Beckett in today in order to rest Okajima for another game. They mentioned on a broadcast a bit ago (after Okajima threw three days in a row) that Francona had been talking about how he overworked Papelbon last year, and that he was worried about overworking Okajima this year. I don't really think Papelbon was overworked last year, but regardless, it means that they'll probably try to cut back with Okajima.
   82. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:00 AM (#2416232)
Snyder for the 7th is an OK option. Donnelly when he comes back is also somewhat defensible, but Manny D should be given mor echances. He's throwing GAS right now.

Also, somebody should do that thing they do to horses with broken legs to Timlin.
   83. Darren Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:07 AM (#2416238)
My guess is that Papelbon will pitch more than an inning either (a) in the playoffs or (b) after the Sox drop ~10 games to the Yankees. Until then, I think babying his shoulder is the way to go, and the way the Sox will go.



Even when they were reasonably close in the standings, Pap was almost always held to 1 or less IP. Heck, I'd advocate it even with this large lead to a) prepare for the playoffs, b) allow for a more consistent and workable schedule for Pap, and c) allow Okajima a few more days off.

I don't really think Papelbon was overworked last year, but regardless, it means that they'll probably try to cut back with Okajima.


I think he, Foulke, and Timlin were worked a bit hard early on and all three paid. I don't think they've learned the lesson that I wanted them to though.
   84. Darren Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:25 AM (#2423574)
Good usage tonight obviously of both guys in a close game. Pap threw about 20 extra pitches because of a poorly placed weak grounder and a questionable call though.

He also really lost his cool, which is something to keep in mind. When he finishes, he is often jumping around and pumping his fist. This guy works at a very high intensity level--perhaps he was cut out for this role rather than starter.
   85. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:35 AM (#2423591)
I thought he was going to go into "chokeabitch" mode and hurt somebody. Thankfully Cora tackled him.
   86. Chip Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:40 AM (#2423598)
It was Pedroia who pushed him away from Riley. He was in serious danger of bumping him and getting a suspension.
   87. Darren Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:41 AM (#2423599)
It was Pedroia who held him back. I don't know what that mode is and I don't want to know.
   88. villageidiom Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:43 AM (#2423602)
This guy works at a very high intensity level

No kidding.
   89. Darren Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2423604)
I didn't think he was going to bump him but I think he was a couple more seconds of being in the ump's face from getting tossed.

Damn, Kenny Lofton is one tough out and has been for a very long time. What a great and underated player he is. .372 career OBP, 2353 hits, 4 gold gloves, 619 steals (although 250 of them came tonight against Wake/Mirabelli tonight). Yet year after year, he signs 1-2 year deals at short money while other guys get the big money. It's like his mediocre 2001 convinced everyone that he was finished and no one can really believe he's still good. The Sox could have done worse than getting him to fill the gap left by Damon.
   90. chris p Posted: June 30, 2007 at 03:06 AM (#2423615)
kenny lofton was being tossed around as a comp for ellsbury. if ellsbury turns into kenny lofton, i think we'll all be pretty happy. unless he turns into kenny lofton for the white sox.
   91. Darren Posted: June 30, 2007 at 03:26 AM (#2423628)
I believe I made the ellsbury/lofton comp (though I don't know if I was the first to do so). It's a good one on a number of levels. In the minors both had very good batting averages, high steals numbers, excellent CF defense, and hit few HR/had very little power. Lofton's age 24 in the PCL was .308 .367 .417, which looks a lot like what Ellsbury's doing this year.

Lofton, though, would be the ceiling-ish comp for Ellsbury. I'm sure that plenty of guys with similar pedigrees don't amount to nearly as much. A more pessimistic comp would be Juan Pierre, who's still a good player overall.
   92. Darren Posted: June 30, 2007 at 03:28 AM (#2423629)
Forgot to add that they have similar height/weights as well.
   93. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 04, 2007 at 02:13 AM (#2428419)
Wow, tonight's Papelbon non-high leverage use was actually justfied. Unless you wanted to see Okajima throw 4 nights in 5.
   94. Darren Posted: July 06, 2007 at 04:04 AM (#2430674)
Was there any reason to send Beckett out for the 6th tonight, pushing his pitch total to 105, after a grueling game in which he sat for long periods between innings? I can see the merit in resting the bullpen, but they could easily have tacked another inning onto Snyder (I wonder if calling him the long man refers to his height rather than his role). Plus they stand to pick up another reliever over the weekend after sending Ellsbury down. (Breslow? Please?)

Was it wishful thinking or did Timlin look somewhat competent against some good hitters tonight? No K's but a bunch of weak pop-ups.
   95. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:48 AM (#2472676)
Yeah, I've been busy, so I haven't regularly posted in this thread in a month. It appears with Gagne Okajima can get some time off. He got 2 days off instead of 1 after pitching 2 straight days in a row, and tonight he only pitched one batter.

Yea Gagne Yea Okajima rest Yea.

Edit: Brendan Donnelly out for year Sad.

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