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   1. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:37 AM (#3944474)
FIRE THE WHOLE ####### TEAM! LAVARNWAY CAN STAY!

edit: btw, I appreciate that both options here involve rage. I understand that I'm a rare beastie in being both a Mets and a Sox fan, due to the oddity of my upbringing (raised by Mets fans, but growing up in New England for all but the first 4 years of my life)- but holy ####. This is 3 times in the past 5 years that one of the two teams I hope and dream on in MLB have choked like small dogs on overly large kibbles and bits on the LAST ####### DAY OF THE SEASON. I've not a real problem with Francona. Nor I a real issue with Epstein. Both have been better than worse over the past decade run of the Sox. But #### CARL CRAWFORD. And #### JONATHON PAPELBON. AND #### JOHN LACKEY. AND #### DAISUKE MATSUZAKA. Release/nontender them ALL, I don't ####### care how much it costs.
   2. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:41 AM (#3944495)
LAVARNWAY? LAVARNWAY? MISTER 0 FOR ####### 5? #### HIM!!! FIND A HARVARD MAN TO CATCH!!!
   3. Darren Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3944503)
ALL CAPS!!!!!!!
   4. Dan Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:45 AM (#3944514)
Is Carl Crawford going to have to enter the witness protection program?

Will he walk away from his contract?

If he didn't already hate Boston before tonight, he's going to now.
   5. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#3944523)
He deserves the hate. He signed a huge contract, and then single-handedly destroyed the team's playoff hopes. Granted that it was a hard catch, but he should ####### know what's coming. Release his ass or better yet trade him to Kansas City so he can know true pain.
   6. caprules Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:54 AM (#3944541)
Ninefingers/Collem West
   7. tfbg9 Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:55 AM (#3944547)
Is this a bad time to bring up the $200 I just won?
   8. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:57 AM (#3944552)
Speaking of bets I owe MCoA for a pre-season bet about Saltalamacchia. Let me know who to sponsor.
   9. tfbg9 Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:58 AM (#3944553)
"All time closer" my as$.
   10. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: September 29, 2011 at 04:59 AM (#3944558)
#### these ####### ########### ############# ########. i hate this ####### team.
   11. tfbg9 Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:00 AM (#3944561)
Eh, they weren't a good bet to advance in the ALDS anyway.
   12. Kirby Kyle Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:05 AM (#3944576)
Is this a bad time to bring up the $200 I just won?

Tonight's chaos pushed Daryn from fourth to third in our rotisserie league, almost exactly covering the amount he owes you.
   13. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:06 AM (#3944581)
Is this a bad time to bring up the $200 I just won?


At this point, any port in a ####### shitstorm.

edit: God bless the nanny's foibles!
   14. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:23 AM (#3944593)
The training staff in particular has been incompetent for 2 straight years. They need to all be fired. The Buchholz injury could have been diagnosed at least 4 weeks sooner via a simple CT/MRI. Had he been able to start even 4 games in September we might not be here.

Shielding the training staff is on Theo. Personally, I let him go to the Cubs. What's worth getting as compensation.

Oh, and fans should actively try to stop the sellout streak. The situation requires more than pitchforks and torches. There will be blood.
   15. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:41 AM (#3944595)
The training staff in particular has been incompetent for 2 straight years. They need to all be fired. The Buchholz injury could have been diagnosed at least 4 weeks sooner via a simple CT/MRI. Had he been able to start even 4 games in September we might not be here.

Shielding the training staff is on Theo. Personally, I let him go to the Cubs. What's worth getting as compensation.

Oh, and fans should actively try to stop the sellout streak. The situation requires more than pitchforks and torches. There will be blood.
   16. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:53 AM (#3944599)
I am not going to say much more now - everyone pretty much knows what I am thinking as I know what everyone else is.

Loved your post McOA in any case - take care everyone - not sure I'll be around for long in the coming months
   17. Jittery McFrog Posted: September 29, 2011 at 05:55 AM (#3944602)
The following players shall not be loathed by me: Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz. That is all.
   18. plink Posted: September 29, 2011 at 06:05 AM (#3944610)
Was at the game tonight. Wow.
   19. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 06:25 AM (#3944624)
Scutaro one of the few to show up the last month while Nero fiddled and Rome burned. He's OK. I'd take the option.

Lotta of "lost the clubhouse"-type stuff on the various post-game shows, cliques, etc. Francona's toast.
   20. Dan Posted: September 29, 2011 at 06:27 AM (#3944625)
I wish that Mikael would've posted an open discussion off-season thread before he headed off to bed.
   21. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 06:33 AM (#3944633)
Cross-posted:

Epstein Reaction

This doesn't sound like a guy bringing back his manager for 2012.
   22. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 06:40 AM (#3944635)
"We can't deny that this month happened just because it was preceded by four months of being in the best team in baseball doesn't mean September didn't happen. We'll have to take a very close look at everything that's not right. That includes the whole organization. If there's any silver lining from it, it's you can't look at the other way. If there's anything that's not exactly the way you want it, you have to address it now. That process is going to be difficult but it's something that we have to do."


Epstein, from the link. Francona's gone; just a matter of the day that gets picked to announce the option isn't being picked up. Now if he could just hang the training staff from the wheels of the plane upon takeoff...
   23. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: September 29, 2011 at 06:52 AM (#3944639)
I want John Lackey ####### gone. If he can just pitch as well as a decent AAA starter for 2 starts, the Red Sox go to the postseason. If I have to see that ############ in a Red Sox uniform next year, well, I probably won't do anything. But I will impotently rage against it.
   24. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 07:32 AM (#3944650)
Cosign #23.
   25. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 07:34 AM (#3944651)
What the #### do you expect from a new manager, btw? Seriously, what the #### are we going to hire? Boston won't do with someone random. We're going to get a manager who has friction with the ####### GM. And we're going to be ######## this time next season about it.
   26. ray james Posted: September 29, 2011 at 08:48 AM (#3944667)
Stunningly brutal loss, and equally stunning win by the Rays.

This is worse than 1978, IMO.
   27. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 09:19 AM (#3944670)
I've got all these good ones!!! Let me start:

--

A couple of months ago, people were talking about how the Sox would do playing against the Tigers: now, people are wondering how the Sox are going to do against Tiger Woods

--

Rest in Peace, Jason Varitek. I remember when the President came to Fenway to throw out the first pitch to Varitek:

It was President Washington

--

Sure, Carl Crawford had a bad season, he's apologized for it. I'm not going to blame him too much, maybe it's a bad fit, and the pressure from the fans!

There's just not enough Fried Chicken and Watermelon joints in Boston, and in Tampa, he could rob a 7-11 without getting recognized!

Perhaps management should take some responsibility. Next time, don't sign a player that can't count over 20, because that's usually the number of fans that show up in Tropicana each night

--

John Lackey's wife, a Red Sox fan, is going through cancer and a divorce right now. I'd like to congratulate her on successfully getting rid of at least one the blood-sucking malignant tumours in her life.

--

The Red Sox did face a lot of adversity and overcome obstacles: Terry Francona has the judgement skills of Casey Anthony's jury, and Jonathan Papelbon has had to overcome his illiteracy

--

People are all over Theo Epstein, I remember, we were all full of hope when 2004 Training Camp started. Now I just want to see him going to Mel Gibson's Camp

--

This year wasn't all bad, Jacoby Ellsbury stole more bases than Joba Chamberlain's mom stole cars, and Adrian Gonzalez's batting average was higher than Charlie Sheen!

And more inflated than Laura Posada's **nt after she gave birth to that retarded son of theirs.

--

Our sister Liverpool's catchphrase is "You never walk alone." I believe that applies to us Red Sox fans too, because when we walk, Darnell Macdonald is around the corner, waiting to rob us of the 50 dollars in our wallet. How else is he going to feed his 7 kids and 5 baby mommas?

--

Happy Hunting, folks. I'm prepared for a ban
   28. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 29, 2011 at 10:38 AM (#3944677)
I woke up this morning and pissed my pants.

edit...pissed my jammies. The ones with monkeys on them.
   29. OCD SS Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:10 PM (#3944706)
[Crawford] signed a huge contract, and then single-handedly destroyed the team's playoff hopes. Granted that it was a hard catch, but he should ####### know what's coming.


C'mon dude. No one destroyed this team's playoff hopes by themselves. Your selfish b!tching is marginalizing and hurtful to the all the people who hate Lackey, or Tito, or Theo.

There was plenty of suck to go around, and your assigning it to one player is selfish and ungenerous.
   30. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:11 PM (#3944707)
Boston won't do with someone random.
They hired someone random the last time around. I don't see why they wouldn't do it again.

As a sidenote, I would prefer that this thread not be about ICW's intentional provocation, which clearly should never have been posted. Just use your "ignore" feature and move on with the ragefulness.
   31. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:27 PM (#3944710)
I mean, are we really this upset? It was a disappointing season. They've been out of it all month. We've had a long time to deal with this.

It sucks, guys, but they're a great team. If their pitching hadn't fallen apart due to injury and sucking over the last month, they'd have been fine. Why overreact?
   32. tfbg9 Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:39 PM (#3944719)
Now you know why we pis$ our pants...fear of this feeling.
   33. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:42 PM (#3944720)
I'll confess: I didn't watch a pitch last night. This season ended long ago, and last night didn't really matter. So I guess I've had a lot more time to get over it than some peeople.
   34. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:43 PM (#3944721)
I'd like to point out that during the Start, Jose pointed out that they might be able to use those games that they're pissing away. If this team starts out 3-9 rather than 2-10, they might have weathered this.
   35. Lassus Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:46 PM (#3944724)
I'm more upset that they didn't overcome the "NO TEAM THAT HAS EVER STARTED 2-10 HAS EVER MADE THE PLAYOFFS" thing than almost anything else. I was really looking forward to telling those people to suck it.
   36. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:47 PM (#3944727)
Sure, if the team had won even more games during the period when they played as the best team in baseball, they would have survived. If they'd gone 86-49 instead of 83-52 through August, say. But before September, they were exactly what we thought they were, doing exactly what we thought they'd do. The unpleasantness is the part that requires explanation.
   37. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:48 PM (#3944728)
That was a great flame, Chris. Yankee fans have been there and we know exactly what you're going through.
   38. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:50 PM (#3944729)
Happy Hunting, folks. I'm prepared for a ban


You at least could have made the jokes inane ramblings funny.
   39. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:52 PM (#3944736)
Fly - I'm friggen crushed. I didn't fall asleep until 3AM. This team gave away so many ####### games this year. It seemed like they lost a disproportionate number of games that were truly winnable throughout the season. Yeah, they had the occasional "ordinary" loss but it just felt that at least half the losses were games that could have been won easily but for a single moment. I guess that is probably true of losses in general but this team felt like it missed...something.

As for the idea that it's a great team, I just can't get there. Yeah, they had four great months but they also had two very poor months (one catastrophically so). Great teams don't let issues pile up like this one did.
   40. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:53 PM (#3944737)
I'm more upset that they didn't overcome the "NO TEAM THAT HAS EVER STARTED 2-10 HAS EVER MADE THE PLAYOFFS" thing than almost anything else. I was really looking forward to telling those people to suck it.


Has any team overcome 0-6 or 1-8 starts like the Rays did this year?
   41. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:54 PM (#3944738)
Fly - I'm friggen crushed. I didn't fall asleep until 3AM. This team gave away so many ####### games this year. It seemed like they lost a disproportionate number of games that were truly winnable throughout the season. Yeah, they had the occasional "ordinary" loss but it just felt that at least half the losses were games that could have been won easily but for a single moment. I guess that is probably true of losses in general but this team felt like it missed...something.

I feel the same way. I completely get what you're saying, and I agree 100000%. But what I don't get is why so many people are so wrapped up in losing this game. It was really, really apparent that they were NOT going to win a single playoff game, if they made it. They weren't going to win game 163, if they made it. Winning this game would have just set up another disappointment later.

I'm just glad it's finally over.
   42. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:55 PM (#3944742)
As for the idea that it's a great team, I just can't get there. Yeah, they had four great months but they also had two very poor months (one catastrophically so). Great teams don't let issues pile up like this one did.
I'm not saying they're a great team. Great teams actually win.

But I still can't see the case that this club didn't have the talent of a great team. The players were all there, they played up to projections, the team had Pyth and third-order winning percentages that matched to the wins and to the projected preseason quality.

The question for me is why a team with the talent to be great failed so spectacularly.
   43. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 29, 2011 at 12:59 PM (#3944746)
It was really, really apparent that they were NOT going to win a single playoff game, if they made it. They weren't going to win game 163, if they made it. Winning this game would have just set up another disappointment later.
Maybe. I just don't see choking events as being predictive in this way. That the Sox were choking away the season made it more likely that they would continue to choke away the season, but it was always possible that they'd right the ship. There were moments in last night's game - Lester's big Ks and his big double play, Aceves shutting down the rally he started with the two HBP, Papi and Crawford setting up rallies with hits to the opposite field - where it seemed like they might be turning it around. They didn't, of course, and instead they ran into outs at horrific rate, failed on the mound and in the field at the worst possible moment, and choked away the game in the same fashion they had all month. But it's always possible for human beings to surprise you, and it shouldn't even be terribly surprising when a highly talented group of professionals start doing their jobs well after struggling for a period of time.
   44. Darren Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:03 PM (#3944749)
Should there also be a reckoning here for the condescending smart guys who laughed at the pants pissers?
   45. tfbg9 Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:04 PM (#3944752)
Life goes on.
   46. Toby Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:04 PM (#3944754)
The day is circled on my calendar.
This day.
Weeks ago I told my friends,
This day, I said,
This day I shall spend
in a ball, curled up
in despair ... or maybe in relief
or just perhaps unable to function
because we had a tiebreaker game
to play.

But I am here. I am not curled.
I have a profound sense of zen.
The stages of grief have already been run.
I have a mantra this morning.
"Sometimes the baseball gods
must feed."

This team lost me long ago.
It lost me a little bit back last winter.
The signing of Crawford made me queasy.
It seemed a bit much,
a bit too gaudy. But I told myself
"are we not deserving of this?
"can we not splurge too?
"can we not sit back and enjoy
a juggernaut?
"why not us?"

Other things have happened too,
along the way. Not worth listing.
Not worth blaming.

I know this one thing --
this thing I learned,
in upstate New York, in college,
1986.
When we Sox fans, we few,
in a sea of Mets caps
were gnashing our teeth,
our hearts having been ripped
just ripped
out of our chests.
I was fond of that old saying --
was it Roger Angell? I forget --
"Baseball isn't life or death,
but the Red Sox are."

I said that to someone. And he said
something back to me. It was
"From time to time
the baseball gods
must feed."

I did not get it then.
Like any fans, we Sox fans
can be very self-absorbed.

Last night the baseball gods
sat down to feed.
I was struck by the majesty of it all
and the sheer,
the utter,
brutality
of it all.

I sat there watching.
The Sox on the big teevee,
the Rays,
those ####### plucky Rays
streaming on the iPad.

As Dan Johnson came up
I had this thought,
this awful, terrible thought --
"how would it feel
if he crushed it?"

When Papi got thrown out,
When Scutaro got thrown out,
When the bullpen gates opened
for Papelbon,
"how would it feel
if we blew this game?"

How would it feel indeed.
There's a Gammons essay from many years ago,
before 2004 and all that
"How Would It Feel?" -- I think that
was the name.
How would it feel to have the Red Sox win?
How would it feel?

Back then we didn't know.
Now we do.

There I sat, having that thought,
that happy thought
and just then the cameras flashed
in the Rays game
to the dugout
to Johnny Damon.

I had to smile.
A savage, noble smile,
because I felt then
I knew, then, in that moment
what I was told in '86
but had never really understood before.
Sometimes the baseball gods
must feed.

My heart was beating,
my Red Sox heart.
But I knew.

It's been a fine run
a glorious run,
that great, fatal team of 2003
2004
2007.

We have some great toys,
Papi,
our little mister Laser Show,
Adrian,
Lester, so good, so poised.
And this new Super Soldier, this Captain Navajo.

And then we have these other things
these gaudy things we bought,
Lackey,
Crawford,
Drew ...
Why not us? We said then.
Why not us, indeed?

Last night the baseball gods came again.
Sometimes the baseball gods must feed.
Why not us? we told ourselves then.
And today: Why not us, indeed.
   47. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:06 PM (#3944756)
That was beautiful.
   48. OCD SS Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:10 PM (#3944765)
Should there also be a reckoning here for the condescending smart guys who laughed at the pants pissers?


That depends. Are their pants stained now, or are they still clean?
   49. Mister High Standards Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:14 PM (#3944768)
Well lads. Remember, as my grandfather told me long ago

Don't take it so hard. No matter what happens I'll be cutting hair in the morning.


And of course, my corollary to that statement.

####'em. There is always next year.
   50. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:16 PM (#3944770)
Yesterday my wife, daughter and I were all wearing Red Sox hats while we were walking around La Quinta, CA. A man with a Yankees hat came up to us and he made a joke about the potential for a playoff game today. I said, in the most serious way possible, that it was excruciating to watch this team and what looked like (and is now) an epic collapse. And then he said the most unexpected, beautiful and kind thing: "Hey, it's all for fun." That's exactly the thing I always forget. I forgot it last night while I screamed at the computer watching the collapse and I forgot it when I went to bed pissed off. But I remember it now and I'm going to try to remember it all winter and through next year. It's all for fun.
   51. Jim Wisinski Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:18 PM (#3944772)
I have to admit that I do feel bad for you guys. I mean, I'd love to think of all Red Sox (and Yankee of course) fans as souless pond scum with the IQ of Jonathon Papelbon or Carl Crawford but I actually like all you guys. Seeing a once-great season collapse like that is obviously brutal and heart-wrenching.

I'm glad Crawford sucked for you guys though. No sympathy on that.
   52. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:18 PM (#3944773)
Should there also be a reckoning here for the condescending smart guys who laughed at the pants pissers?


I don't see any benefit to that.

EDIT: #### it, tl;dr too much self-indulgence
   53. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:22 PM (#3944778)
I liked it, Jose.
   54. PJ Martinez Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:23 PM (#3944781)
I will be responding with sadness.
   55. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:27 PM (#3944787)
I will say this: I'm glad we have Coorey around, because only he can walk us through the process of relegation.
   56. Mister High Standards Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:29 PM (#3944788)

I have to admit that I do feel bad for you guys.


Stuff it Potsy!
   57. WhoWantsTeixeiraDessert Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:30 PM (#3944790)
Yup.
   58. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:31 PM (#3944791)
Thanks Fly.
   59. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:38 PM (#3944797)
There's just not enough Fried Chicken and Watermelon joints in Boston, and in Tampa, he could rob a 7-11 without getting recognized!

And the casual racism is probably not even the worst part of the post.
   60. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:46 PM (#3944806)
Lackey and Crawford are not able to be traded. They could always have limbs fall off unexpectedly, though, and thereby render themselves incapable of performing, thus freeing us from their contracts. Spontaneous limb amputation probably has as much a chance of happened between now and March 1 as the Rays coming back did... So, I'll hold out hope for that.

Or maybe another satellite will fall to earth and tear off Lackey's right arm in the process?

But both will be back. It'll be fun to have both a Mike Hampton and an Alfonso Soriano on the same team at the same time.
   61. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:49 PM (#3944810)
I'm still hopeful that Crawford will bounce back.

Lackey...I don't know. My feeling right now is that we'll learn a lot about the direction of the organization next Spring whether it's Theo/Tito or someone else. He simply cannot be permitted to arrive at Ft. Myers with anything other than the Tim Wakefield Long Man/Sixth Starter job nailed down. I've gotta pay him so I'll keep him on the 25 man but other than that, he has no right to expect any certainty after the year he had.
   62. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:53 PM (#3944819)
Crawford's a sunk cost. I'd trade him for Wells straight up in a heartbeat--at least there'd be less years to go.
   63. Mattbert Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:55 PM (#3944821)
It'll be fun to have both a Mike Hampton and an Alfonso Soriano on the same team at the same time.

The best part is that analogy flatters both the Red Sox players.
   64. Mister High Standards Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:55 PM (#3944822)
I think realisticly, Lackey will be in the rotation and Crawford will be in LF.

The cards have largely been dealt for the next several years and now we need to see what comes on 4th street.
   65. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:55 PM (#3944823)
Can they sign "balls" on the free agent market this year? Because that's what the team is lacking the most.

Blow. It. Up.
   66. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:58 PM (#3944828)
I think realisticly, Lackey will be in the rotation and Crawford will be in LF.


Maybe we should try Lackey in LF and Crawford on the mound.

Also, I got about 3 hours of sleep last night and I have the worst cough in the history of man.
   67. Gaelan Posted: September 29, 2011 at 01:59 PM (#3944829)
I posted this in the other thread but I'll say it again. I'm jealous (and not in an ironic way) of you guys. While it's true that it is all for fun. It's a lot more fun if you care whether you win or lose.
   68. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:01 PM (#3944833)
Gaelan - Yeah, as crummy as this feels it is only because it feels this crummy that moments like 2004 and 2007 (not to mention other lesser victories) feel so incredibly good. I watched the final out of 2004 last night before I went to bed and it put a little smile on my face.
   69. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:02 PM (#3944838)
Should there also be a reckoning here for the condescending smart guys who laughed at the pants pissers?


I don't know. How'd that pants pissing work out for you?

The following players shall not be loathed by me: Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz. That is all.


You can't exclude Aceves from any exemption list. That was a hell of a gutsy week that dude put together.

I'm just grateful for the Boys of 04 and 07. Thanks fellas. You make nights like last one far more tolerable.
   70. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:05 PM (#3944843)
I think realisticly, Lackey will be in the rotation and Crawford will be in LF.

The cards have largely been dealt for the next several years and now we need to see what comes on 4th street.


Yup.

Off-season shopping list, in no particular order, with the internal team options:

RF - Reddick
Closer - Bard (then no one for 8th, etc.)
3rd baseman - Youkilis/Lowrie Mr. Glass combo
DH - Youkilis (if not at 3rd)
Catcher - SaltyVarnway
*EDIT*4th/5th Starters - Lackey & a heaping of minor-league farm system guys
Long term SS

Oh, and start talks with Ellsbury for a long-term deal. I expect some regression, but unless the good Upton becomes available who do you replace him with? Older formerly-good OF's signed to huge deals are going to be tough to shoe-horn into the budget with Crawford, Gonzalez & Pitching.
   71. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:07 PM (#3944849)
SaltyVarnway seems like a reasonable platoon.

We should consider letting both Pap and Papi walk; the 4 draft picks could really help replenish the farm. 2012 should be a rebuilding/reloading year.
   72. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:09 PM (#3944852)
2012 should be a rebuilding/reloading year.

If there are really 5 playoff spots next year, this is crazy talk.
   73. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:12 PM (#3944856)
I'm sure most fans feel this way about their team, but MAN, it felt like every break went against the Red Sox this year. (Plus, every break in favor of the Rays.)
   74. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:13 PM (#3944859)

If there are really 5 playoff spots next year, this is crazy talk.


Is that really happening? Then that changes the equation a whole lot.

Will there be a change in the Red Sox Budget next year? Will we be able to go total crazy, or will we have to stick to a budget?
   75. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:16 PM (#3944869)
2012 should be a rebuilding/reloading year.

If there are really 5 playoff spots next year, this is crazy talk.


Agreed. Ridiculous talk of a rebuilding year.

Crawford and Lackey are not going to be worse.
RF is not going to be worse.
Gonzalez will be similar
Pedroia maybe slightly worse
Ellsbury will regress, but Crawford will improve and take the sting out of it.
SS will be similar
3rd - could go either way
Catcher - same
Pitching - Lester/Beckett - same for next year, Buchholz will pitch same but not get hurt, 4th/5th/6th - can they really get worse?
Pen - if Papelbon is not signed or replaced then worse.

Why would the team not be projected as an 88-94 win team?
   76. Darren Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:17 PM (#3944872)

I don't know. How'd that pants pissing work out for you?


It worked out to be correct. (And it wasn't me for a change.)
   77. Matthew E Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:17 PM (#3944874)
All right, well, let me ask you this.

Do you fire Bill James?
   78. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:21 PM (#3944883)
It worked out to be correct.


OK. Congratulations to the urinators?
   79. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:22 PM (#3944886)
Remember a few years ago how the Angels just ate Gary Matthews Jr's contract? Will we be able to do that?

(Not saying we should sign a Torri Hunter type Player)
   80. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:23 PM (#3944887)
I think "will this be a playoff team?" is the wrong question. Making the play-in game is not really making the playoffs. The offseason goal is no longer a playoff berth, any playoff berth, but the AL East crown. 88-94 is not enough.

I'm not at all saying the club should give up, I'm saying the club needs to be aiming at significant improvement.
   81. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:25 PM (#3944889)
Just off the top of my head;

Sign Edwin Jackson
Bring back Papelbon
Tell Doubront he is in the rotation or Single A and it's all about coming to camp in shape (assuming the stories of him being out of shape were true)
Execute the medical staff, hire new guys, then execute them too just to get the message across to the next group
SaltyLav is the catcher
Punt Wake
Keep Ortiz on 2 plus an option, anything more and good bye
Go young in the bullpen. Bowden, Tazawa, maybe even Weiland (though I fear he's Sprowled after this mess) with Bard, Papelbon, Aceves, Jenks, Wheeler and Morales.
   82. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:27 PM (#3944890)
Two more; don't get too aggressive on an Ellsbury contract. One great year from a 27 year old player with two more years of team control can be waited on. Yeah, if he signs a team friendly deal, do it, but that's not likely for a variety of reasons. Any deal that gets done now can get done a year from now.

Consider options at third base. Youk broke down badly this year and probably should be expected to have health issues moving forward.
   83. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:28 PM (#3944892)
Go young in the bullpen. Bowden, Tazawa, maybe even Weiland (though I fear he's Sprowled after this mess) with Bard, Papelbon, Aceves, Jenks, Wheeler and Morales.


I like Bowden in the long man/6th starter role for next season. He should be better than Wake.
   84. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:28 PM (#3944893)
A topline, first impression about what the Red Sox should do with personnel this off-season:

At catcher, you've got to admit, we went from having no plan other than resigning Varitek every year until he was 50 to having two young catchers that are cheap, have power, and can throw pretty well. This is now a position of relative strength entering 2012.

Assuming Youkilis comes back healthy in 2012, we are great shape at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

I presume the team will try to sign Ellsbury to a long-term deal for meaningful dollars - I just don't know that Ellsbury would do it. Regardless, we have one of the best OF's in the AL coming back for the next few years, anyway.

I presume the Red Sox will try to resign Ortiz to a two-year, $18m deal or something this off-season. I have no idea how good he will be in 2013, but I can't imagine he'll be as good as he was in 2011. I don't think we can afford to give him a third year, unless it was incentive-laden, or maybe it's an attainable team option, etc.

Scutaro looked healthy at the end of the season, and he looked good. He played his ### off down the stretch, and he's scheduled to make $6 million next year, if the team picks up the option. Iglesias is not ready. I'd pick up the option. Starting with the day after the pre-Irene sweep of the A's, he had a slash line of .378/.427/.561. He had lots of doubles, walked more than he struck out - played extremely well.

To me, an enormous question is the corner outfielders. For Crawford, the question is not whether or not he's the LF next year - it's whether or not he's going to be a lot better than he was. Here's the thing a lot of Red Sox fans are missing: Carl Crawford was a good player in Tampa, but he wasn't as good as most people think he was. He was a regular for eight seasons in Tampa. His OPS+ in those eight seasons: 81, 105, 111,113, 117, 89, 116, 135. With the defense and the steals, he's better than the OPS+ suggests, but he was never Adrian Gonzalez, and when you consider he's now 30 years old, and that he hit better in Tampa than he did on the road during his career, well...I don't think we're looking at somebody who is going to make more than an All-Star team or two during his remaining six years. That contract will hound him for years to come.

As for RF, Drew is now gone, but what about Reddick? He started white-hot, but struggled to hit .240, with little power or OBP, from early July forward. He's a fine fourth OF, but do you feel good about giving him the job in 2012? I don't. Kalish is seen as the better prospects, but injuries have slowed down his path. Reddick doesn't have much of a platoon split, either...

The pitching? Let's face it, if Buchholz had been healthy, the Red Sox would've won several more games this year. If Epstein thought things were going to be this bad, he would've probably sought out more pitching at the deadline. Entering 2012, we have three very good pitchers at the front of the rotation. We'll have Lackey, and we'll have to pitch him, and hope he gets better. The 5th starter? It's not coming from the current system, so we'll probably need to make a deal, or sign somebody. Or maybe we can turn Aceves into a starter? Does Andrew Miller have upside? Tazawa? I don't think Weiland is ready for anything entering 2012, nor is Doubront.

The bullpen? Papelbon was awesome this year - do we give him a 4 yr/$40m deal? Would he take fewer years? How does last night impact his perceived value, if at all? Bard will be back, and I suspect he was just gassed at the end of the season. Jenks will be back next year, and if he is healthy, that could be a big deal. Everybody else (Albers, Morales, etc.)? Whatever.

I guess the personnel decisions that matter most this winter will be:
1) Resign Ortiz and/or Paps?
2) Make a commitment as to what you think Aceves' future is - starter or reliever?
3) Decide if Reddick/Kalish can play everyday in RF.
4) Build organizational depth in replacement-level starting pitching - tell Bowden, Doubront and Tazawa they will be the first three guys in AAA in 2012, and that if we get injuries to Beckett/Lester/Buchholz/Aceves/Lackey, whoever of those three can perform will likely get the first crack at sticking in the bigs.
   85. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:30 PM (#3944894)
If the Sox get rid of Wake, I don't know what I'll do.
   86. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:30 PM (#3944895)

Two more; don't get too aggressive on an Ellsbury contract. One great year from a 27 year old player with two more years of team control can be waited on. Yeah, if he signs a team friendly deal, do it, but that's not likely for a variety of reasons. Any deal that gets done now can get done a year from now.


Second that, I'd use up another arb year just to make sure last year was real.

Consider options at third base. Youk broke down badly this year and probably should be expected to have health issues moving forward.


Was it because he played 3b?
   87. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:33 PM (#3944900)
Reddick


I felt as if he changed his approach. Should just have set him loose at the plate.
   88. Toolsy McClutch Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:36 PM (#3944904)
As a Jay fan, I have to believe Crawford will be better, maybe much. While he's clearly overpaid, I'd expect him to be in the 110 OPS+ range and his speed gives the team a needed dimension.

I suspect Lackey will probably be bad to average again next year, but he's a sunk cost and if he can be just slightly below average that's great. Maybe another year removed from familial problems and he'll be good, and perhaps even tradeable.

Don't forget last year many people were writing off Ellsbury, and he was simply insane. The non-pitching core of the team is fantastic.

Awful year for you guys, but I fear the Sox next year. The FO is bound to have more depth.
   89. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:38 PM (#3944908)
The non-pitching core of the team is fantastic.


Really? Pedroia and A-Gon are obviously reliable, but Jacoby has only had 1 year of awesome. Youkilis is getting old, and that's it.
   90. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:39 PM (#3944909)
Last year people were writing off Ellsbury because he got hurt. Those people were morons.

As for the previous suggestion of Edwin Jackson: please no. A guy who K'd 6 per 9 in the NL this year with a WHIP of 1.4 is a very, very bad bet to be a good pitcher in the AL East. Stay away. The Sox have a terrible track record with mid-level free agents.
   91. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:41 PM (#3944912)
I think "will this be a playoff team?" is the wrong question. Making the play-in game is not really making the playoffs. The offseason goal is no longer a playoff berth, any playoff berth, but the AL East crown. 88-94 is not enough.

I'm not at all saying the club should give up, I'm saying the club needs to be aiming at significant improvement.


I agree, I just think talk of rebuilding is ridiculous. I am saying the Sox would project as a WC potential without any significant changes - any large signing or trade would bump them to Div Contender.

Two more; don't get too aggressive on an Ellsbury contract. One great year from a 27 year old player with two more years of team control can be waited on. Yeah, if he signs a team friendly deal, do it, but that's not likely for a variety of reasons. Any deal that gets done now can get done a year from now.


Again, agreement, that's why I said talks should be started - maybe he goes the Lester/Buchholz/Youkilis/Pedroia route and signs a decent deal for team and player.

I think Aceves should stay in the pen. The guy was incredibly valuable there, why #### with that?

What's the rough calculation for payroll - 130M after arb raises? 30~35M to spend assuming they hit the mid 160's. Scutaro at 6, 28M or so for a 5th pitcher, closer, DH, RF. Sounds doable to me.
   92. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:49 PM (#3944926)
Crawford for Wells, straight up. At least we'll be free of 3 sunk years of cost. That's the move I want to see.

Of course, once the trade happens, Crawford will finally get LASIK surgery and tear it up for 6 years, but I don't care.
   93. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3944928)
I presume the Red Sox will try to resign Ortiz to a two-year, $18m deal

It's hard to imagine Ortiz taking a >25% paycut coming off a 154 OPS+ season.

More like 2/25 or 3/40 I'd think. Konerko got 3/37.5 coming off a similar season at a similar age.
   94. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:52 PM (#3944929)
I guess it's just that I don't want to have to hate a guy for 6 more years--that much hate for so long wearies the soul. I'd prefer him to just go away.

Drew, at least, could play defense and took a walk. Crawford's whole approach to the skill of "batting" is pathetic and I will be a happier person to never have to see it again.
   95. Textbook Editor Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:53 PM (#3944933)
I'd do 2/$28 in a heartbeat for Ortiz. It isn't the $, it's the years I'm worried about.
   96. Nasty Nate Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:54 PM (#3944935)
weird to say, but I think reading Sox Therapy for the last few weeks helped prepare me for last night. i am at peace. amazing that the events in Tampa were coinciding, with the Braves game on also (on my cable the games were on 3 consecutive channels). It felt like a smaller scale version those days when the 04 ALCS and NLCS were concurrent because of extra innings.

my offseason suggestion - trade Beckett and sign CC
   97. Darren Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:55 PM (#3944937)
Josh Beckett
2006-2009: 792 IP, 4.05 ERA
2010: 127.2 IP, 5.78 ERA
2011: 193 IP, 2.89 ERA

John Lackey
2007-2010: 778.1 IP, 3.73 ERA
2011: 160 IP, 6.41 ERA
2012: ???
   98. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:56 PM (#3944940)
I'd do 2/$28 in a heartbeat for Ortiz. It isn't the $, it's the years I'm worried about.

Concur, but he's going to be looking at the Konerko contract. Depending on the market, you might have to go 3 years.

Edit: I honestly don't get why Boston should be so worried about having a player one year past his expiration date.

Will ownership not raise payroll under any circumstances?
   99. tfbg9 Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:57 PM (#3944943)
We must respond with blind, wild rage.


BTW, I massively disagree with this. Sadness is what I think the response is...but to each his-blah-blah-blah.

In the immortal words of the very definitely non-immortal front man of "KC and the Sunshine Band":

"I miss the comfort of being sad."
   100. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 29, 2011 at 02:58 PM (#3944945)
2006-2009: 792 IP, 4.05 ERA
2010: 127.2 IP, 5.78 ERA
2011: 193 IP, 2.89 ERA

John Lackey
2007-2010: 778.1 IP, 3.73 ERA
2011: 160 IP, 6.41 ERA
2012: ???
That's not really a fair comparison. Lackey is coming off a pretty mediocre 2010 before his disaster of 2011. Beckett's 2009 (212 IP. 3.86) was pretty good.
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