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1. villageidiom Posted: February 28, 2009 at 03:36 AM (#3088645)I don't think Varitek is completely done, but I expect him to be among the least productive members of the front-line talent this year. (Yeah, really going out on a limb.) And I want the transition away from him to start this year, though it doesn't have to happen starting on opening day.
AROM, how close is Edmonds to the magic 70 WAR?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. He hit something last year and the system thinks he'll hit something else this year. It doesn't have mean he'll pick up X singles, X doubles, etc.
Second, Varitek's projections are pretty darn terrible. 725, 787, 672... 707? A simple 5/4/3 projection would put him at a 724 OPS, and any regression to the mean factor would bump that up a little more. So, accounting for Varitek's age and position loses him several runs of projection. I think there's another several runs of projection to be lost when you account for the qualitative decline in bat speed, particularly from the left side of the plate.
I realize the fallacy in just arbitrarily removing the worst month of the season but that month was SO bad I think it's a fair question to ask if something was going on there. Was there an injury we didn't know about? Was the divorce an issue for some reason that month more than others? Even if you substitute a July-level performance for June his OPS for the season is a more palatable .697. I just believe (maybe I'm wishing it was so) that SOMETHING was up in June beyond just a normal slump.
I think whether we can look at Tek and determine a loss of batspeed (or whatever) that is not going to be reflected in the projection is questionable. Out of curiosity, how many is several runs. Will he be 1.1 WAR? 0.6? Let's make some predictions and see where the chips fall.
One could make the argument that the difference between the individual Jason Varitek and the set of aggregated characteristics that are fed into a projection system is not usefully knowable in any case, or is not usefully knowable in Varitek's case. I find the former deeply problematic, and the latter at least reasonable, and then we'd be arguing on the same wavelength.
Where it breaks down for me is when we eschew the projections in favor amateur scouting reports about body quickness and bat speed (I know that's a cruel pairing). I just think fans are generally too biased by their frustration watching players fail to accurately predict whether they would bounce back. I would also say that we, as fans, don't know enough about how bat speed and the like come and go from season to season. Tek may well have had a slow bat last year but regain some speed on it next year.
Also, let's hear how you think he'll hit. I really think it will be a fun exercise to follow along this year and see how well the projections did vs. projections + BBTF scouting. Who knows, I might even be wrong!
I would tend to think that Varitek is going to hit somewhere in the 650-680 OPS range, a season roughly equal to his last season, a bit worse. I want to watch him hit in spring, because I think it's at least conceivable that some mechanical adjustments to his swing might allow him to stave off decline in the short term.
I'm going off the top of my head here, but if I had to pick another Red Sox whom I think is over- or under-projected, I'd say Jon Lester is underprojected because of the real, qualitative improvement in his command that came from growing leg strength and general cancer recovery. I can't think of any other players right now where I think I've seen something that I'm confident enough in to bring to the table. I looked up Kevin Youkilis in case the consensus had him retaining his fluky '08 power spike, but it looks like he's projected to lose most of it.
For what it's worth, I think the people who dispute Ellsbury's projections (see the last active thread) are basically wrong, and I don't see major issues in his game what would prevent him from being a good contributor in CF, as he is projected.
I'm skeptical of Jed Lowrie's glove, but that's a case where these actually isn't any useful data to work with anyway.
EDIT: Do you think that that there are no Red Sox players for whom you have useful information to add in to adjust their projections?
I realize the fallacy in just arbitrarily removing the worst month of the season but that month was SO bad I think it's a fair question to ask if something was going on there.
I think a 580 OPS month is pretty standard variance from a guy we think has a true talent OPS in the 715 range.
EDIT: I checked it up. It was 381
Still don't think it's anything special. I would guess that a month that bad would happen once every 12-15 months by chance for a guy like Varitek.
I think the fact that he had cancer that messed with his performance that he is completely recovered from makes his projection less useful.
I don't think you know enough to say that he is underprojected because of "real, qualitative improvement in his command that came from growing leg strength". To me that is exactly the same as saying Youkilis' power surge was for real because of his obsessive workouts at whatever facility it is that Peter Gammons loves talking about, or that Shea Hillenbrand's sessions with Dwight Evans were so enlightening that his .330/.330/.550 April is for real.
It sounds plausible, but I can imagine other explanations that sound plausible. How about the improvement was from Lester submitting to Jason Varitek's calming leadership and making changes to his approach? Remember in April he was the exact same maddening(ly lucky) pitcher he was in 2007. I'm pretty sure he didn't grow some glutes the night before his no hitter, but look at this quote from Lester talking about how he gives all the credit in the world to Jason Varitek for his great performance. How are we to choose from the infinite, plausible sounding explanations?
Prediction: .239/.328/.377.
I'll guess most people here know this, but 543 or 321 systems are pretty crude. A good system will take into account month to month performances within seasons, especially the most recent season. If a guy's season, m to m, goes (OPS) 200 350 500 650 800 950, his projection for the following year had better be different than if his m to m went 950 800 650 500 350 200. A good system will also take into account anomolous months within a season.
If not, you've got a system that needs some serious tweaking.
Tango demonstrated that stat projections are fighting over a few percentage points of r-squared, as that's the most they can reasonably beat Marcel by, and Marcel doesn't use month to month.
Close, 66.5 as of my latest calculations. The whole system will be available on baseballprojection.com sometime soon, hopefully before the season starts. I've been working on the page designs today.
Edmonds doesn't have much chance of adding a few WAR though, since he's not getting any interest at all. Looks like he might be Loftoned.
It's ok to embrace this. A player's career is not a puzzle to be solved by finding an explanation for every blip in their record.
That was based on a miscalculation, and he's retracted it.
I think ark is right, but I haven't seen any studies demonstrating it either. Maybe one that compared first-half and second-half numbers.
If there are two guys, first one goes 800 800 800 200 800 800, second one goes 700 700 700 700 700 700, I bet the first guy does better the following year. Of course that's an extreme case. It would be interesting to see how much better.
--
With respect to Varitek, my first question is whether the projection systems deal properly with 37-year-old catchers coming off the worst season of their career. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they systematically over-project this group. Aging curves are not well-established, selection bias is a huge problem, few catchers have ever been productive at that age, etc.
Granting for the sake of argument that the projection systems get the group right as a whole, the next question is how Varitek compares to the group. This is really unclear to me. You can point to diminished bat speed, but everyone in this group is going to have had problems. After all, they just had the worst season of their career. Some are suffering from chronic injuries, some are getting physically out of shape, you name it. I certainly don't have the confidence to say that Varitek is better or worse off than the average of these peers.
In a nutshell, projections aren't yet good enough to obviate the need for player-specific studies. Not that I know anything, but I believe the stat-oriented MLB teams spend a lot of time on player-specific studies as compared to general systems. (Of course, even if they do, that doesn't make them right.) But I'm skeptical of MCoA's claim that "decreased bat speed" adds a significant amount of information to what we already know from the statistical record. More precisely, it certainly adds information, but I have no idea whether it serves to make the "ideal statistical projection" worse or better, let alone by how much.
There's sort of a larger thing here for me, that I think that a variety of trends in contemporary economics have pushed a notion of human society and behavior in which statistical models are misrecognized as the extent of the real - that is, what falls outside of these models is little worth pursuing - and I see an analogy here to the deep mistrust among baseball stat people of information that falls outside of aggregative statistical models. Obviously baseball and society are different, and baseball in a number of important ways is more open to this sort of modeling and projection, but I think that we need to recognize both the limits of particular kinds of tools, and that the limits of these tools is not equivalent to the limits of our knowledge.
Go read what you wrote to ark. Unless you have an enormous amount of free time on your hands, it isn't worth pursuing. Well, I suppose it's entertaining to make projections based on something beyond the numbers, in the same way it was entertaining to call Miss Cleo.
It's worth pursuing, but more and more here and elsewhere, people point to it with certainty--it's obvious to them that their own scouting, which has never been tested, is a valuable addition to the projection. Think about all the stuff we hear from actual professional scouts that turns out to be completely bogus. One that sticks out is that Blalock had a hole in his swing that would be exposed at the Major League level. But that's just one of many. And those are the pros. The rest of us, sitting at home, watching on TV, trying to decipher whether Tek's bat speed has dropped him from a 710 expected OPS to an 670 expected OPS don't stand a chance.
That, of course, is a far different thing from Lester's situation, or other cases like the ones I mention above, where there are more obvious factors that we can plainly see will affect players' abilities. On those, of course, I would have no problem adjusting my expectations.
I agree. It's easy to fall into this trap. The stereotypical stathead circa 2001 underrated fielding because there weren't reliable stats to measure it.* If you pressed him on it he would say, I know fielding is important but I can't keep track of it, while I can keep track of hitting. So I'll focus on what I know how to measure. In practice, though, this translated into undervaluation of good defense.
Surely the same scenario is going on today, with different examples. I would suggest that catchers' pitch-calling is something we all claim to understand the importance of but minimize in practice.
I think that we need to recognize both the limits of particular kinds of tools, and that the limits of these tools is not equivalent to the limits of our knowledge.
Yes. Though, if Tango's R^2 calculation had been correct, it would have meant that Marcel _was_ nearly equivalent to the limit of our knowledge. For this reason, we all should have distrusted the calculation and found the (simple) mistake much earlier. Easy for me to say now, I guess.
Edit: to agree completely with Darren in #27.
Edit 2: I forgot the asterisk. Zone rating was available in 2001, wasn't it? Dial has shown that it gets you most of the way to the fancier metrics. So maybe it was a communication issue: Dial had figured this out, but he had a hard time piercing the stathead conventional wisdom. Or maybe I'm being too unfair to the people who were around back then -- I didn't get into this stuff until 03 or so.
Finally! Someone joins me on this side of the fence... though I wouldn't peg it to contemporary economics. People just want the world to be simpler than it is; once they have a model that appears to work, they no longer feel the need to evaluate its fitness, whether the underlying assumptions have changed, nothing. Happens all the time.
I've probably said this 100 times, but I'll say it again: if reality doesn't match expectations, it's worth considering if the expectations are wrong.
This isn't intended as a reply to your projection specifically, but in general... If I recall, they're planning to use Varitek less this year. I suppose they might sit him more in cases where he's less likely to hit well. If so, his ratios might get a lift, and his counting stats will drop, from whatever one might otherwise project.
EDITed for clarity.
If I had a projection system I'd be perfectly willing to overhaul it if you could show me I was making a mistake. If you can't prove that it's making a mistake, then I'm not going to assume that the system is perfect, but I am going to assume that you and I both have no idea what the mistakes it makes are.
If Varitek is projected at .700 OPS and hits .680, that will be one of the better projections for the year. If he hits .650, it will still be far from one of the worst.
I'd also like to know where you got this notion of "certainty". I think I've spent like 30% of my writing in these threads talking about humility and the limited nature of observation. I simply believe that statistical models for projection are also deeply limited, and so occasionally I think I have something useful to add.
I'm not arguing against scouting having value. My point was that even the real scouts are far from perfect; I would guess that us amateurs are not very good at all.
As for certainty, you always write with humility but others seem extremely sure that they've captured something with their observation that the projection misses. I think they're wrong--that's all.
I think it really only works in extreme cases.
800 800 800 200 800 800 really looks like an 800 hitter who had an injury (or some other issue) that one month.
750 700 750 400 800 750, really just looks like a 700 hitter.
Here's Dioner Navarro's OPS+ the last 4 years:
94, 79, 70, 98.
What that doesn't show is that in May 2007 he hit .143/.167/.200, followed by .185/.264/.277
33 catchers from 2005-08 have 1000+ PAs, Dioner's OPS+ that span is 85.
He IS a better hitter than that. May-June 2007 was just off the charts bad- and really have no value in projecting him for 2009.
That's an extreme case- 97.5% of the time I do not think you can cherry pick stats like that.
For instance:
Julio Lugo had consecutive seasons of 98, 94, 105, 96
Then in May 2007 he hit .209/.241/.336, and June he hit .089/.170/.139 (!!!YIKES)
He hit .280/.322/.406 post ASB in 2007 (his OPS+ for the year ended up at 65), at the time I assumed you could throw his bad months out and he'd be back to a 95 OPS+ in 2008-
nope, he reached 78.
Tek in 2009?
I'd cap him at his 3 year average of .238/.336/.393
Given his age and position, I wouldn't be all that surprised if he couldn't reach last year's marks of .220/.313/.359
His new, simplified swing is working!
Agreed.
That was Mike Lowell a couple of times yesterday. And he seemed to run slower than usual. I'm concerned he's not quite right yet.
On the other hand, Jed Lowrie looks a mess. I'm wondering how soon we'll be demanding Chris Carter in clutch situations. at the game on Wednesday, I thought they were going to Carter.
Of course, if that's true, it must be one horrible question.
On Lowrie, I think it's important to recognize that this is a guy who projects to a 730-750 OPS. That's obviously better than Lugo. That's solid for a shortstop. That'd be the best shortstop the Sox have had since Nomar. But it's not a projections of particularly great offensive contributor, and I can definitely see a lefty 1B/LF with the platoon advantage being a better option in certain situations.
However, I think that Francona surely has other reasons for batting Lowrie in the clutch - with the possible upgrade to a pinch-hitter being relatively small, I think there's value in showing that you trust the young kid to be a big leaguer and hit in big league pressure situations. I just hope he starts paying it off.
THREE GAMES.
However, I think that Francona surely has other reasons for batting Lowrie in the clutch - with the possible upgrade to a pinch-hitter being relatively small, I think there's value in showing that you trust the young kid to be a big leaguer and hit in big league pressure situations. I just hope he starts paying it off.
Remember that hit in the ALDS last year? Also, THREE GAMES.
Of course, if that's true, it must be one horrible question.
Dis made me laugh, and ponder what the question would be.
"Which baseball player do you think of when you pray at the porcelain altar?"
Lowrie, keep in mind, delivered an extra-inning HR in late August in Toronto, and the hit that won the ALDS. He had another game-winning hit in Bay's first game with Boston, though I wouldn't cite that weak shot as a sign of his clutch ability. He has come through in big-league pressure situations. He didn't this week, and looked bad; like you I hope it isn't a sign of things to come, but I'm not too worried about him. Not yet, at least.
Again, I'm more worried about Lowell.
(Though Lowrie whiffing on an 89-MPH fastball down the middle was pretty miserable.)
As I said in my longer post, the issues with Lowrie are not merely ones of observation over a tiny sample - though I won't stop doing that, and I think I've made pretty clear why - but also a function of the more general fact that Lowrie is not a particularly strong hitter. And when a not particularly strong hitter hits for himself in late and clutch situations in two games in a row (and fails both times), it's a topic for conversation.
I think one point I wanted to make is that the Jed Lowrie of the projection systems is the sort of player you want to consider pinch-hitting for. And Francona's general tendency is not to pinch-hit, I would assume out of a combination of knowing that pinch-hitters see a notable decline in effectiveness from their baseline skill, and because his managerial style requires him to show faith in his players.
RHB: 387 AB, 284/351/465
LHB: 883 AB, 288/393/439
I got the numbers from minorleaguesplits.com - I can't find any way to create a permanent link to the data.
Basically true, but I bet there are small differences based on the usual factors - veteran status, contract size, star power - that we may never really know for sure due to the small overall occurrence of pinch hitting.
Also consider that even if Francona had equal confidence in Lowell and Lowrie, he might believe that the two players' confidence in themselves would be differently affected. When Lowrie gets hit for he can tell himself that the manager thinks he is not yet a great hitter; when Lowell gets hit for, he gets the message he is no longer a great hitter. That's probably a big difference to professional athletes.
Also also consider that Lowrie probably hasn't earned his way into the lineup in Francona's mind to the extent that Lowell (and even Ellsbury) have, since Lugo's injury ended the alleged ST competition early.
In short, I think Lowrie is a lot more likely to be hit for than anyone else in the lineup, and that has nothing to do with projections (where Varitek may look worse) or temporary slumpiness scouting (where Lowell looks equally bad).
Tek:226/327/440
Castillo: 292/402/377, -2.2 UZR/150.
Tek: 235/321/429
Castillo: 304/383/370
Ortiz: 208/318/300
and a toast to the big man! first of many for David I hope.
Well that effing Darren went and got a life and can't continue to feed this monster....that bastard!
And Tek, 2 homers today. slg. over .500!
I wish I had posted a prediction on Vagitek in here. Despite his shockingly non-horrible start, I'm still of the opinion he is quite cooked. He may not get another hit the rest of the season.
I wish someone did. It was always nice to have Sox Therapy around, always talking baseball here, none of that other crap that's fills up the newsblog.
Why has Count the Ringzzzzzzzzzzzzz been dead for 42 years?
I asked for the keys to Count the Rings maybe 6 months ago. I didn't get a reply.
Varitek
Proj: 228/326/381, 1.6 WAR in 463 PA
Real: 209/312/391, 1.3 WAR in 423 PA
Castillo
Proj: 275/360/347, 1.2 WAR (-5 UZR) in 536 PA
Real: 304/389/347, 1.5 WAR (-11.4 UZR) in 576 PA
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