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   101. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:17 AM (#1918228)
That's the sort of thing I could rap at school and get cheered for, but I have to remember that many of you are PC, bleeding heart liberals who take offense to the misuse of the word gay.
I hear ya. I hate how people here also decry anti-Semitism, the sort of thing one might get cheered for at one's local neo-Nazi movements. I guess we all just have to remember that some bleeding-heart liberal ######## here don't like it when one uses derogatory expressions regarding entire groups of people. Sheesh, some people, hunh?

Um, slightly more seriously, let's grant for the sake of argument that people here are overly sensitive about your use of the word "gay" as a term of derision -- does that really excuse your using it in the way you did? Let's say they're wrong to think you should be drawn and quartered for using "gay" as a synonym for "lame" -- that doesn't mean that you're right for using it as one, it seems to me. Do you disagree?
   102. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:19 AM (#1918233)
Whoops, sorry. I assumed I'd get auto-censored there. I guess the cybernanny doesn't catch the plural forms?
   103. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:26 AM (#1918245)
Can we please stop thinking that Choi has ANY chance (greater than, like, 1 in 100) of beomcing David Ortiz? Its delusional. What were the odds of David Ortiz becoming David ORtiz?

He COULD become an average 1b but the odds of him becoming one of the best and most feared hitters in the league are miniscule.
   104. Punky Brusstar (orw) Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:45 AM (#1918278)
I'm not the biggest Choi fan, but I like the price. BTW, I could care less if you guys were Moonies. This is my fave baseball website.
   105. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:53 AM (#1918296)
"I hear ya. I hate how people here also decry anti-Semitism, the sort of thing one might get cheered for at one's local neo-Nazi movements."

This is a bit of a silly, over the top comparason, no Robert? I'd say that what our young Ballfan did was more akin to using the expression "Jew me down" in place of "haggle", something I heard a lot in PA when I was a kid in the 70's. Offensive enough, but not up to the heinous level of holding big rallies and blaming most of societies' problems on one religious group, as the current Left leadership tends to do to Evangelical and Born-Agains, incidentally.

Bivens, it happens all the time unprovoked, I've mostly stopped reading religious threads because of it. I'll copy and paste 'em and email 'em to you in the future if you'd like to see examples, but I'm guessing you don't.
   106. Darren Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:54 AM (#1918302)
tfbg is the antithesis of a bleeding heart liberal and he took offense at your comments. So the knee-jerk "blame the liberals" trick isn't going to work here. (Also, try looking up the word 'liberal'--it doesn't mean evil.)

What gets you cheered in high school is pretty irrelevent here, because this is an adult forum. Here, it's expected that you show some decorum and respect for others.
   107. Darren Posted: March 26, 2006 at 12:57 AM (#1918307)
Offensive enough, but not up to the heinous level of holding big rallies and blaming most of societies' problems on one religious group, as the current Left leadership tends to do to Evangelical and Born-Agains, incidentally.

If only the left could learn to be more like the right, who have worked diligently to unite our nation and focused on solving its problems. Think of how much our lot has improved in the past six years.
   108. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:02 AM (#1918314)
Your high school must have some seriously weak (I mean "weak" as in "lame") rhyming skills if the same old homophobic rhymes get big cheers.

Let me guess--you think Serius Jones has better skills than Jin the Emcee?

If PC-ness means that we don't let you get props for the same recycled hateful stereotypes, then count me as a big PC fan.
   109. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:03 AM (#1918317)
Bivens, it happens all the time unprovoked

Oh well, ### for tat then, and la-di da.

I'd say that what our young Ballfan did was more akin to using the expression "Jew me down" in place of "haggle", something I heard a lot in PA when I was a kid in the 70's.

Sorry to hear that you grew up around so many a-holes.
   110. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:07 AM (#1918329)
Did t i t just get censored? I love the context that that ### came up in
   111. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:08 AM (#1918330)
tfbg9, i was rooting for japan in the final. and, yeah, i do think that alot of society's problems can be blamed on fundamentilsm, whether it's christianity, islam, or pastafarianism.
   112. Xander Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:09 AM (#1918334)
His rhyming skills are much more offensive than anything he rhymes about. Unless there is some deep-seeded self-parody in these rhymes, I fail to see any redeeming quality they have.
   113. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:12 AM (#1918338)
This is a bit of a silly, over the top comparason, no Robert?
Yes, yes, it is. My apologies for the hyperbole. Feel free to skip the paragraph containing that comparison and instead simply read the second paragraph of the same post (#1 on page 2), the one that begins, "Um, slightly more seriously..."

The point of the first (hyperbolic) paragraph was to point out (in perhaps poor fashion) that while, yes, there may be places in which we are not criticized for our actions, the existence of such places does not make such actions acceptable/right/good in other places. For instance, when stranded in the Andes, it may be okay to eat dead rugby players; that does not make cannibalism okay elsewhere...

Or if you prefer a <u>slightly</u> less hyperbolic example, it may be okay while hanging out with one's friends to fart and belch and scratch yourself; their apparent acceptance (in that setting) does not make those actions appealing in other settings. "Well, my friends would applaud me for such actions" is pretty much irrelevant to the point.
   114. Xander Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:12 AM (#1918341)
And I appreciate irreverence as much as anyone.
   115. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:13 AM (#1918344)
### for tat then
That's hysterical.
   116. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:13 AM (#1918345)
"Sorry to hear that you grew up around so many a-holes."

Most of 'em never learned any different. There were almost no Jewish people around. Some of them were anti-Semites, but not to the level of any Nazi, of course. It seems/seemed more like the term "chinese home run", which I'd wager most Chinese guys are not enamored with, rightfully and understanably so, but was/is not uttered out of any particular hated of the chinese people, its seems more a matter of people saying something that they just say without knowing that others would feel hurt by it. Ignorance, but not hate.
   117. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:14 AM (#1918348)
and, wrt to the venezuelan team, i think alot of the reasons for the US team losing can be applied to venezuela. they were playing abreu in center and didn't even both to carry a real first baseman. also, and melvin mora and felix hernandez didn't show up ... richard hidalgo and roberto petagine also could have helped. and ugueth urbina ... but i think he already had plans.
   118. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:14 AM (#1918351)
His rhyming skills are much more offensive than anything he rhymes about. Unless there is some deep-seeded self-parody in these rhymes, I fail to see any redeeming quality they have.

i'd have to agree with this.
   119. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:16 AM (#1918352)
you seem to have alot of experience making excuses for offensive behavior, don't you?
   120. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:16 AM (#1918355)
4 in a row!
   121. Punky Brusstar (orw) Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:16 AM (#1918357)
pastafarianism


Are those the dudes who worship the spaghetti monster?
   122. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:17 AM (#1918360)
Are those the dudes who worship the spaghetti monster?

you know it!
   123. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:18 AM (#1918363)
Most of 'em never learned any different. There were almost no Jewish people around. Some of them were anti-Semites, but not to the level of any Nazi, of course. It seems/seemed more like the term "chinese home run", which I'd wager most Chinese guys are not enamored with, rightfully and understanably so, but was/is not uttered out of any particular hated of the chinese people, its seems more a matter of people saying something that they just say without knowing that others would feel hurt by it. Ignorance, but not hate.

LOL,and I call "BS". Especially to THIS gem: Some of them were anti-Semites, but not to the level of any Nazi, of course.

Make me laugh-out-mother-humping-loud, why don't you? It's nice to hear that your neighbors wouldn't gas me. Keep me out of their country club: yes, but gas me? No. Thanks.

"Not knowing that others would feel hurt by it?" What kind of arrested developement spawns that BS? Please. You're digging it deeper and deeper.
   124. caprules Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:20 AM (#1918367)
Gagne, think about why the word "gay" is used as a derogatory term. It is MEANT to be offensive in the context which you used. As a person of faith, it would be wise to consider your thoughts and actions and imagine how a spiritual role-model would behave. The phrase WWJD is a joke around here, but is a good guide for life for people of faith.

Also, I find the trivialization of the word "rape" to be almost as offensive. The word describes about the worst thing that could happen to someone, and people use it in such meaningless ways.
   125. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:23 AM (#1918372)
I think the above could be an explanation for almost any kind of bigotry.
1. Ignorance that people have the same amount of humanity that you do.
2. Ignorance of your own ability to treat others atrociously, not out of hate, but more envy and self-absorbedness.
   126. Dr. Vaux Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:23 AM (#1918375)
Why was the comparison to anti-semitism a bad one? Both are groups who are social minorities, contain many wonderful, lovely people, and have been for much of their respective histories routinely persecuted in ways ranging from juvenile to utterly heinous. I'd say that they're comparable functionlly, though one is a religion and the other isn't.

And, of course, tfbg9's "of course" is a self-righteous reflex which is fr from provable and not particularly likely. Put Adolph Hitler in 1970s New Jersey and he might be just another Archie Bunker. Put tfbg9 (or any other reasonably intelligent rightist) in the Weimar Republic, and he might very well become a dastardly political leader; the latter is an environment where it's easier to talk loudly, gain followers, and sweep into power.
   127. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:26 AM (#1918380)
siiiiiiiiiiigh
   128. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:33 AM (#1918393)
I re-read the post and this line: Most of 'em never learned any different. stands out.

1)Have they learned by now? I wonder.

2)I suppose you can say the same for gagne et al... they haven't learned any different. Which is pretty scary, since they're in school, where they're supposed to, you know, learn. Makes you wonder what they're being taught.
   129. sublime Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:34 AM (#1918394)
He COULD become an average 1b


if by COULD, you mean ALREADY HAS, then I agree.
   130. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:35 AM (#1918396)
"Which is pretty scary, since they're in school, where they're supposed to, you know, learn."

HA...in theory, sure.
In reality? not so much
   131. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:35 AM (#1918399)
At least as far as HS goes
   132. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:36 AM (#1918403)
Why was the comparison to anti-semitism a bad one?
As the one who made it, I'll speak up here. I believe tfbg9 was suggesting it was hyperbolic. I can concede that it may have been. (I can also see arguments that it wasn't). I don't much care -- there was a larger point to the analogy which I think got lost (as I explained in a subsequent post).

In other words, let's assume it was hyperbolic, and go on to the larger point: that the (theoretically) accepted use of "gay" as a synonym for "lame" in one context does not mean that its use is acceptable in (perhaps many) other contexts.
   133. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:36 AM (#1918404)
Well, they seem to be learning something, from the crap he posts.
   134. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:37 AM (#1918405)
----"Not knowing that others would feel hurt by it?" What kind of arrested developement spawns that BS? Please. You're digging it deeper and deeper.

I grew up in a town where no one was Jewish (no Latinos or African-Americans either). The term \"##### him down" was a common expression when we were growing up. I don't think any of us knew the origins of the phrase, and we certainly would have been surprised to find someone offended by it. So was life in rural Western New York.
   135. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:40 AM (#1918408)
He COULD become an average 1b


if by COULD, you mean ALREADY HAS, then I agree.

WHAT? why are you talking about baseball on this thread...were supposed to be calling each other gay or Nazi.

Anyway.
Choi hasnt done it over a full season. Sure thats partly because of lack of opportunity but also because of a lack of consistancy. At any rate, to say he has any real chance of becoming David Ortiz is so blatently wrong its obscene
   136. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:42 AM (#1918414)
That's the sort of thing I could rap at school and get cheered for

Of course all of those cheers would be mock cheers.
   137. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:45 AM (#1918418)
So was life in rural Western New York.

Ok. So we've learned that your and tfbg9's hometowns didn't have an abundance of deep thinkers. That's an excuse, to an extent, I guess.
   138. DCW3 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:48 AM (#1918421)
Also, I find the trivialization of the word "rape" to be almost as offensive. The word describes about the worst thing that could happen to someone, and people use it in such meaningless ways.

I was with you on everything else, but, come on, is this really any worse than saying, "Man, the Astros just got murdered in the World Series"?
   139. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 01:53 AM (#1918427)
man, ray chapman just got killed by carl mays!
   140. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:10 AM (#1918449)
My 7 year old niece just asked what I was doing in here, and then asked what the topic was. When I explained that it was bigotry, and gave a broad example of what constitutes bigotry, the look on her face that went along with the following statement was priceless: "People still THINK that way? That stuff happened back with Martin Luther King". She looked shocked. God bless her. She came to us with that attitude...I take no credit for it.

I'm teaching her how to send belch odor across a dinner table with subtlety.
   141. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:16 AM (#1918457)
There are levels of anti-semitism. Exclusion form a country club is less evil than governmental mass murder, no? Both are obviously morally wrong, one is far worse.

I don't feel that the kid's "lyrics" and anti-semetism are incompapable. I said that Ggane 55's offensive remarks were closer to my two examples than any Nuremburg rally-type stuff. As a matter of fact' I remember guys who were way left of center, barely Democrats even, circa 1985, saying stuff like "he was acting really gay", when they meant acting in an embarassing way. These were college guys down at Rutgers, weirdo WFMU listenin', frat-hating nerd-rocker types who ironically had all of REM's records. It was just something people said without thinking. I don't feel it comes even close to rising to the level of hate, maybe you do. But how could it be possible, Bivens, Vaux, Eraser X? I mean, they attending a University, NEVER went to church, and they all voted for MONDALE!!!

Wow, Vaux thinks I'm reasonably intellegent, might have leadership qualities and charisma, and I'm some sort of anti-semetic fascist. He also apparently thinks that were it not for a monsterous corporate/government conspiracy, we'd all be zipping around in flying cars. He really does.
   142. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:21 AM (#1918465)
Wow, Vaux thinks I'm reasonably intellegent, might have leadership qualities and charisma, and I'm some sort of anti-semetic fascist. He also apparently thinks that were it not for a monsterous corporate/government conspiracy, we'd all be zipping around in flying cars. He really does.

vaux is really out there. he also thinks the rangers have a shot at the al west. ha!
   143. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:23 AM (#1918466)
Lets just say I definitely would have bet the over and lost on "Number of posts before Hee-Seop Choi thread turns into heated political thread."
   144. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:24 AM (#1918467)
At any rate, to say he has any real chance of becoming David Ortiz is so blatently wrong its obscene
Perhaps, but then the chances of Ortiz's becoming Ortiz were obscenely small as well.

<u><b>Ortiz</b></u>:
age  lvl  games  AB   AVG   OBP   SLG
21   A
+     61  239  .331  .390  .556
21   AA     69  258  .322  .376  .585
21   AAA    10   42  .214  .256  .524    
21   MLB    15   49  .327  .353  .449

<u><b>Choi</b></u>:
age  lvl  games  AB   AVG   OBP   SLG
21   A
+     96  345  .296  .369  .533
21   AA     36  122  .303  .419  .623 


At age 21, they look pretty similar to me.

<u><b>Ortiz</b></u>:
age  lvl  games  AB   AVG   OBP   SLG
22   AAA    11   37  .243  .305  .486    
22   MLB    86  278  .277  .371  .446

<u><b>Choi</b></u>:
age  lvl  games   AB   AVG   OBP   SLG
22   AAA    77   266  .229  .313  .417 


Ortiz is clearly better as a 22 year-old.

<u><b>Ortiz</b></u>:
age  lvl  games  AB   AVG   OBP   SLG
23   AAA   130  476  .315  .415  .590    
23   MLB    10   20  .000  .200  .000
24   MLB   130  415  .282  .364  .446

<u><b>Choi</b></u>:
age  lvl  games   AB   AVG   OBP   SLG
23   AAA   135   478  .287  .406  .513
23   MLB    24    50  .180  .281  .320
24   AAA    18    66  .258  .351  .621
24   MLB    80   202  .218  .350  .421 


And Ortiz is better at 23 and 24, though Choi has made up some of the age-22 gap, I think. Choi's average is alarmingly low at 24, but he's making up for it with walks and power.

I'm not saying that Choi is going to be the next Ortiz (I've never said it, nor will I ever say it), but comparisons between the two aren't obscene. If it's unlikely that Choi turns out to be the next Ortiz, it's as much because it was unlikely for Ortiz to become the first Ortiz as anything else. Ortiz became better than Choi at age 22, but they were once even and Choi was not THAT much worse at age 23 and age 24.
   145. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:26 AM (#1918471)
Note to self: inside the bracket-pr tags, the other tags don't work.
   146. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:28 AM (#1918472)
"Perhaps, but then the chances of Ortiz's becoming Ortiz were obscenely small as well."

Which is what I said right before this thread went to hell.

"I'm not saying that Choi is going to be the next Ortiz (I've never said it, nor will I ever say it), but comparisons between the two aren't obscene. If it's unlikely that Choi turns out to be the next Ortiz, it's as much because it was unlikely for Ortiz to become the first Ortiz as anything else."

You are exactly right
I agree that they are comparable but to expect lighjting to hit twice aint wise.

AFter all, we dont go around looking at guys w track records similar to Pujols' minor league career and getting this jumpy do we?
   147. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:28 AM (#1918473)
There are levels of anti-semitism. Exclusion form a country club is less evil than governmental mass murder, no? Both are obviously morally wrong, one is far worse.

I was just expressing my relief that all your neighbors would be able to visit upon me was exclusion. Really. I'm grateful.

As a matter of fact' I remember guys who were way left of center, barely Democrats even, circa 1985, saying stuff like "he was acting really gay", when they meant acting in an embarassing way. These were college guys down at Rutgers, weirdo WFMU listenin', frat-hating nerd-rocker types who ironically had all of REM's records. It was just something people said without thinking. I don't feel it comes even close to rising to the level of hate, maybe you do. But how could it be possible, Bivens, Vaux, Eraser X? I mean, they attending a University, NEVER went to church, and they all voted for MONDALE!!!

I love anecdotes.

By the way, 1985 was 21 years ago, and, assuming what you're re-telling here is accurate, really doesn't let gagne off the hook, as much as you'd like it to.

And if your acquaintances were truly "far left of center", they wouldn't have voted for Mondale. They would have voted for Jesse Jackson or some other 3rd or 4th party candidate. But there's YOUR bias showing.
   148. RobertMachemer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:30 AM (#1918477)
I agree that they are comparable but to expect lighjting to hit twice aint wise.

AFter all, we dont go around looking at guys w track records similar to Pujols' minor league career and getting this jumpy do we?
Indeed. Was someone suggesting somewhere in this thread that Choi is the next Ortiz? I missed that.
   149. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:34 AM (#1918478)
My take on the use of the word "gay" in the discussed context.

1 - I think 95% of the time it's used without any thought whatsoever, and that this is really unfortunate. It's something that I heard all the time in HS in Iowa (and would chastise people for). My 14-year old sister says it (and I chastise her for it). People don't generally say it around me after I call them out on it. I think that most just never thought/think about what they're actually saying until I bring it up.

2 - Calling people out on such usage is quite proper. For instance, if my sister were to stop calling things gay, then that would be numerous prevented instances of possible harm and confusion to one of the closeted gays that almost certainly exist at her HS.

3 - Those things said, I highly doubt that Gagne_55 meant any offense or is even homophobic. He seems to also be aware that the term is offensive, and I doubt that he uses it again in this context.
   150. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:35 AM (#1918479)
Those things said, I highly doubt that Gagne_55 meant any offense or is even homophobic.

Excuse me, but then why did he mention Sam M in the same sentence? Coincidence?
   151. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:37 AM (#1918480)
and I doubt that he uses it again in this context.

but his rhymes are likely to continue sucking.
   152. MM1f Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:39 AM (#1918481)
"Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 24, 2006 at 06:50 PM (#1916908)
Hee Seop Choi's #1 PECOTA comparable: David Ortiz"


"PJMartinez Posted: March 25, 2006 at 09:30 AM (#1917679)

....David Ortiz supposedly had holes in his swing before coming to Boston (like Choi, after his age 26 season). He was coming off his best season, in which he hit 20 HRs in 412 ABs, hitting 339/500 overall.

Choi last year was only 336/453, but he's had a harder time getting ABs than Ortiz did (who played when healthy). Choi did look great in his last half-season in FLA; given his track record up that point, I tend to think that wasn't a fluke, and that he can become a solid 360/500 hitter.

....The parallel with 2003 and Ortiz/Giambi/Hillenbrand/Millar is an interesting one, but all those guys were young-ish and unestablished, which is not exactly the case with Snow and Lowell."


I thought there were more than that but i guess those were voices in my head...and some posters on SIckles site
   153. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:40 AM (#1918482)
Excuse me, but then why did he mention Sam M in the same sentence? Coincidence?


Excuse me while I bother to actually read the reference...
   154. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:43 AM (#1918484)
Upon further review...I think that "gay" in that context was indeed a very bad choice. I don't think it means he's homophobic, but I can definitely see a case being made for "insensitive"
   155. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:45 AM (#1918488)
but his rhymes are likely to continue sucking.

Please be careful. He'll take that as a challenge.
   156. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:46 AM (#1918489)
------Ok. So we've learned that your and tfbg9's hometowns didn't have an abundance of deep thinkers. That's an excuse, to an extent, I guess.

I certainly grew up in an environment lacking diversity. Even in college I didn't have a close black or Jewish friend. Not being particulary close to people from these groups makes it tough to really learn much about their cultures. Until recently most of what I knew about judiasm was from bad Adam Sandler songs and discussions of Sandy Koufax missing playoff games for Yom Kippur. Media portrayal is much more infuential when you don't know many people who don't look like you.

Optometry school made me much more culturally aware. ~30% of my classmates are Asian/Indian. Almost all of the clinic staff are black. Many of the faculty are Jewish. It's a different world than the one I lived in 8 years ago. Maybe Gagne just hasn't been exposed to different people/viewpoints at this point in his life.

None of this changes the fact that Gagne made a shitty rap, the fact that the Dodgers made a poor move in dumping Choi, or the fact that Choi isn't Ortiz. However, Choi has the ability to be a very valuable piece in a platoon (multi-axis?) role. At this point he probably has been under-exposed to LHP to the point where it will be difficult for him to recover well enough to ever be a legitimate everyday 1B. This is an excellent pick-up for Boston.
   157. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:49 AM (#1918491)
I certainly grew up in an environment lacking diversity. Even in college I didn't have a close black or Jewish friend. Not being particulary close to people from these groups makes it tough to really learn much about their cultures.

And not knowing much about "their cultures" has what to do with using the term \"##### him down"? Is there no inference to be drawn from such a term? Or am I right about your hometown?
   158. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:54 AM (#1918497)

And not knowing much about "their cultures" has what to do with using the term \"##### him down"? Is there no inference to be drawn from such a term? Or am I right about your hometown?


If and ethnic slur is uttered, and no minorities are around, can minorities still be offended?

Can inference be drawn from the term? Yes. Do people draw that inference? Maybe. Maybe not. I think it's just a part of the lexicon of such areas. Hopefully that continues to change, and does so rapidly.
   159. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:55 AM (#1918499)
When you are say 8-10 years old and have never met anyone who was Jewish, you don't even know that \"##### him down" was based on a sterotype about Jewish people. FWIW, "gyped him" was common too. And there is no way in hell I could have told you at that point that gyped came from gypsies either.
   160. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:55 AM (#1918500)
If and ethnic slur is uttered, and no minorities are around, can minorities still be offended?


Right. So that's why Klan meetings where there are no lynchings are harmless.
   161. Gaelan Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:56 AM (#1918501)
Although, I guess that's the problem Darren had in post 85. Sorry about that. That's the sort of thing I could rap at school and get cheered for, but I have to remember that many of you are PC, bleeding heart liberals who take offense to the misuse of the word gay. Sorry about that.


This defense is worse than what he did in the first place. Anyone can make a poor choice of words but when that person doesn't recognize it when it is pointed out to them they move from inconsiderate to fallen.
   162. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:57 AM (#1918502)
When you are say 8-10 years old and have never met anyone who was Jewish, you don't even know that \"##### him down" was based on a sterotype about Jewish people.

The term didn't exist in a vacuum. The 8-10 year olds learned it from SOMEONE who knew what it meant. DUH.
   163. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:57 AM (#1918503)
At that age \"##### him" and "gyped him" just met that you got a good deal or ripped someone off. They were used primarily to describe trading baseball cards or golf balls. At some point I probably used this phrase in front of my parents, was told what it meant, and stopped using it. I have no idea what that age was.
   164. sardonic Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:58 AM (#1918504)
I think gypped is something of an outlier though, because there's nothing about the word that would overtly connect it to gypsies unless you knew though, whereas I presume most people could be expected to realize that \"#####\" is connected to Jewish people.
   165. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 02:59 AM (#1918508)
Clearly someone knew what it meant. I think most likely it was someone's parents or older sibling though.
   166. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:00 AM (#1918509)
But thank you for capitalizing "Jewish". That makes up for everything.

This defense is worse than what he did in the first place. Anyone can make a poor choice of words but when that person doesn't recognize it when it is pointed out to them they move from inconsiderate to fallen.

Yeah, that's the point in the thread where I got a bit angry.
   167. Gaelan Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:00 AM (#1918511)
Hell I didn't even know that gyped was connected to gypsies until five seconds ago. I've used that all my life . . . and never once thought about it.
   168. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:01 AM (#1918512)
At that age \"##### him" and "gyped him" just met that you got a good deal or ripped someone off. They were used primarily to describe trading baseball cards or golf balls. At some point I probably used this phrase in front of my parents, was told what it meant, and stopped using it. I have no idea what that age was.

Clearly someone knew what it meant. I think most likely it was someone's parents or older sibling though.


Please, quit while you still think you're ahead.
   169. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:01 AM (#1918514)
Excessive PC-ness is also a form of repression.

this calls for a wife-beating joke.
   170. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:03 AM (#1918516)
Phrases like this are passed down by kids overhearing them in context and repeating them later in a similar context without knowing what they really mean.
   171. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:04 AM (#1918517)
wok:humor::gagne55:rhymes
   172. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:04 AM (#1918518)

Right. So that's why Klan meetings where there are no lynchings are harmless.


Sorry. I didn't provide any context for that, and I didn't mean to imply that such words are harmless. Indeed, their use perpetuates the line of thinking that led to this whole discussion.

I mostly meant to demonstrate what the line of thinking is in such places.

Conversation with a friend after I had recently met him in high school:

Him: [called something "Jewish"]
Me: Not cool. You know I'm Jewish right?
Him: OMIGOD I'M SO SORRY! YOU KNOW I DIDNT MEAN ANYTHING BY THAT RIGHT?!?!?!
Me: Yeah, I know, it's cool.
Him: Dude, I am SO sorry.
Me: [laughing] I'm not really Jewish, but that's still not cool.
   173. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:04 AM (#1918519)
-----Please, quit while you still think you're ahead.

Yeah, because you clearly know what I knew and when I knew it as a kid.
   174. sardonic Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:08 AM (#1918522)
But thank you for capitalizing "Jewish". That makes up for everything.


Am I being confused with someone else here?
   175. Not Marv Cook Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:09 AM (#1918523)
I think the term "gypped" is interesting to think about. If people honestly don't know it's offensive and would never use the term if they realized it pejorative for "gypsy", does it make it any less offensive? It could make for an interesting comparison.
   176. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:10 AM (#1918526)
But thank you for capitalizing "Jewish". That makes up for everything.

hey! just cuz i'm capitalization impaired doesn't mean i'm not a person, too!
   177. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:12 AM (#1918528)
Who cares about the word "Gay"... I'm surprised he wasn't rhyming with the word "gook"
   178. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:13 AM (#1918530)
Religions are supposed to be capitalized right?
   179. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:14 AM (#1918532)
"And if your acquaintances were truly "far left of center", they wouldn't have voted for Mondale. They would have voted for Jesse Jackson or some other 3rd or 4th party candidate. But there's YOUR bias showing."

Wrong, and comically so. A vote for a fringe candidate is essentially a wasted vote, ask Al Gore or Bush the Elder. This is a notion even mid-80's Rutgers undergrads managed to pick up on, and you apparently haven't, Joe. Besides, by your reasoning, Jessie is a known Jew-hater, because he once famoulsy uttered an anti-Jew remark.

I wasn't trying to let Gagne 55 off the hook or whatever, I called for him to apologize. And he has yet to-shame on him.
   180. sardonic Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:15 AM (#1918535)
I think the term "gypped" is interesting to think about. If people honestly don't know it's offensive and would never use the term if they realized it pejorative for "gypsy", does it make it any less offensive?


I used to use the word from time to time. I had no idea that it was connected to gypsies and I think that a reasonable person shouldn't be expected to know.

Therefore, I don't think that it's offensive to use it if you don't know what it means.
   181. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:15 AM (#1918537)
If and ethnic slur is uttered, and no minorities are around, can minorities still be offended?

Well, as long as the Three Asian Musketeers of Primer aren't around, you guys can do whatever the F!@# you want.

#####

What about "PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111" Does that racially affect any races whose name cnotains a P, W, and N?

OK i got nothin' on this one. Covelli is right. My jokes suck. I need to back and make fun of Levski
   182. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:16 AM (#1918538)
I think the term "gypped" is interesting to think about. If people honestly don't know it's offensive and would never use the term if they realized it pejorative for "gypsy", does it make it any less offensive? It could make for an interesting comparison.

of course you can't fault somebody for using an offensive term if they don't know it's offensive. however, when you learn where the word comes from and why it's offensive, you should change your ways. the thing about the term "gypped" is that it's actually believable for an adult american to not know where the term came from.
   183. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:16 AM (#1918539)
I need to back and make fun of Levski

what you need to do is buy that plane ticket to thailand.
   184. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:17 AM (#1918540)
----Therefore, I don't think that it's offensive to use it if you don't know what it means.

Don't let Bivens find out.
   185. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:19 AM (#1918542)
Here's a question:

If a term that was DEFINITELY offensive and derogatory to a certain group of people, but in the years of Societal Change/English Language Degradation people no longer get the reference to that group, is it still offensive? Does the simple "history" of the word make it offensive, or do people have to "get it" to count?
   186. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:21 AM (#1918544)
what you need to do is buy that plane ticket to thailand.


LOL

Btw, I have no idea where the word "honkey" comes from, so just wanted to let all y'all player-haters out there know that.
   187. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:24 AM (#1918545)
What gets you cheered in high school is pretty irrelevent here, because this is an adult forum.

What's why lounges are deleted on a regular basis right?

Ok my jokes suck this morning, despite the INCREDIBLE potential of this thread to come up with Insta-Primeys.

I'm going back to sleep.
   188. chris p Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:25 AM (#1918547)
----Therefore, I don't think that it's offensive to use it if you don't know what it means.

well, no. it could still be offensive. but you could call it an accident or whatever and not do it again. that seems reasonable to me.
   189. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:26 AM (#1918548)
I'd say they have to get it. If you don't comprehend what you are doing is wrong, for example, you are not held accountable legally.
Denounce away!

Wok, here's a better one: if a bunch of men are stranded on a desert island with a very limilted supply of food to sustain them until recuse arrives, should they divide the food up absolutely evenly, or should the short fats guys like McNally get less?
   190. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:28 AM (#1918551)
We have a winner folks.
   191. Punky Brusstar (orw) Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:28 AM (#1918553)
While you guys are all here on a Saturday night, do any of you know which card company has the best balance transfer deal?
   192. Skewed Priorities Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:29 AM (#1918554)
-----well, no. it could still be offensive. but you could call it an accident or whatever and not do it again. that seems reasonable to me

I agree. You should apologize and try not to do it again.
   193. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:29 AM (#1918555)
I'm still surprised he didn't use "gook". I mean "Gook" is easy to rhyme with... so is "yellow", "chink", and "slitty"
   194. RP Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:48 AM (#1918566)
Ortiz's numbers in his early 20's were pretty damned good. What were the Twins thinking? They couldn't have predicted he'd become DAVID ORTIZ, but no one should be surprised he turned into an above average hitter.
   195. greenback calls it soccer Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:50 AM (#1918567)
Btw, I have no idea where the word "honkey" comes from

Honky-tonk?
   196. HCO Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:54 AM (#1918576)
These were college guys down at Rutgers, weirdo WFMU listenin', frat-hating nerd-rocker types who ironically had all of REM's records

There's the problem - they should have been listening to WRSU.
   197. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 03:58 AM (#1918578)
#94-I think he had turf-related knee trouble and was about to make 3 or 4 million a year?

"Btw, I have no idea where the word "honkey" comes from"

Pissed-off, overly caffinated caucasoids stuck in traffic on the Harlem River Drive just opposite the PJ's.
   198. HCO Posted: March 26, 2006 at 04:11 AM (#1918591)
Wikipedia has a few possible explanations for the derivation of Honky.
   199. tfbg9 Posted: March 26, 2006 at 04:19 AM (#1918601)
I hit that link, but all I got was a picture of Trot Nixon?
   200. Xander Posted: March 26, 2006 at 04:20 AM (#1918603)
I guess all these epithets are up for interpretation. Whenever I used to hear that someone got \"#####\", I always assumed it meant that the person gained affluence, intelligence, and developed a sense of humor.
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