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"It isn't for a lack of trying, but as of this afternoon the Red Sox were not close to a deal according to a source with familiarity with the Sox trade talks. The Sox had irons in the fire for sure. Dodgers' Triple-A third baseman Andy LaRoche, Tampa Bay Devil Rays infielder Ty Wigginton, White Sox right-fielder Jermaine Dye, Texas first baseman Mark Teixeira, outfielder Bobby Kielty and others were all on the radar screen and the Sox had various degrees of discussions concerning the above-named players."
Due to his poor numbers this year, well-known defensive problems, salary, and service time situation - I'm only slightly exaggerating when I say your last urine sample has as much trade value as Pena right now.
Most indications are that the Red Sox are trying to dump Pena to free up the roster spot (he's pretty much a wasted roster spot right now, the way the Red Sox [don't] use him), but finding no interest.
deal!
I haven't really heard what Teixeiaiixaia's price is supposed to be. Is something like Bowden, Masterson and Gabbard totally unrealistic? If Youkilis gets involved I'd be pretty ambivalent toward the deal, and if Ellsbury/Buchholz get involved I won't like it.
Kinda tastey, actually. 21 HRs and a .292/.353/.481 line with a 27.3 VORP.
Comparables: Mike Cuudyer, Carlos Quentin, Garrett Atkins, Brendan Harris.
Not even Cordero?
Players NOT To trade: Bucholtz/Ellsbury/Lowrie/Lars/Masterson/Moss
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
lol, so much for Teixjsiaoxjsaiosaia
The Braves have a couple of "wants", and two "needs".
WANT to flip Andruw Jones for something worthwhile
WANT to get something significant in return for Salty
NEED to improve this year's team without mortgaging the future
NEED a better hitter at 1B
Manny + cash for Andruw seems like it would be worthwhile for both teams, though Atlanta likely gets the better end of the deal if the cash is right. Unless they actually put Manny in CF...
Anyway, what they could use this year is pitching. To make it worthwhile for them to give up Salty, probably their best prospect, you need to contribute someone who (a) is young, and (b) can pitch RIGHT NOW at a major-league level. Gabbard and Lester have both demonstrated that. I pick Gabbard for sake of argument because mentioning Lester around here as trade bait is a non-starter. Throw in Mirabelli simply for roster filler. Atlanta's last need isn't filled here, but is improving on a 64 OPS+ at 1B really that hard to do?
Does that get it done? Or am I undervaluing Salty / overvaluing good young pitching? Or the other way around?
it's a good thing you're not running the team!
My LaRoche trade idea was based on the apparent disenchantment that the LA front office has with him, hence they might, at this moment, undervalue him some.
I think you are undervaluing Salty. He's demonstrated that he can hit Major league pitching at 22 years of age ('though he's had a bad month). Gabbard's had good results, but he isn't really a youngster and was never a top prospect. He could be Jamie Moyer, or he could be Vaughn Eshelman. Lester is better, but I'm not sure how highly other clubs think of him now, since his cancer and mediocre AAA performance (his start against Cleveland notwithstanding).
If the Braves trade Salty during the season, they'll need to replace his production at first (Teix, presumably) and backup catcher, unless they think Pena is a suitable replacement. I think he's traded for Teix or not at all during the season.
Agreed. I think the deals suggested above are non-starters. I would trade Lester and Gabbard together for Saltalamacchia-- and suspect Atlanta would turn that down. He's a switch-hitting catcher who can apparently hit-- that's a rare commodity (like Varitek in his prime).
By the way, according to WEEI (via SoSH): Brady Clark "cleared waivers and was signed to a minor league deal by the Red Sox today."
Could end up as the 4th OF.
I just said i woudln't end up doing it, because Youkilis would end up at LF, which is an idea i DESPISE.
But seriousy though, getting Salty for Manny is pretty good. If Salty projects to be a .850-.900OPS catcher at 300k
But Braves corner OFs are hitting fine, and presumably field much better than Manny, and of course cost much less.
I don't see a match.
Ellsbury is hurt right now, I think pulled his groin?
I'd let Crisp play out the rest of the season, and start Ellsbury in 08.
call down to AAA, start getting Brandon Moss 1B innings. Becuase if we don't get a corner IF and Lowell walks, Brandon moss could slot nicely in at 1B.
I'd have to think that the Brave's would be at least a little interested in such a deal; but again, after the season. Since Coco seems to have remembered how to hit and has learned how to play centerfield, his contract ($4.75M in '08, $5.75 in '09, $8M option/$500K buyout in '10) is pretty attractive. I don't see a Coco-Salty trade making much sense in-season, unless Andruw Jones comes to Boston and at least one other player that can help the Braves this season goes to Atlanta.
There is no way Schulerholtz is goign to trade Salty for Coco. He's going to get a bat and a legit pitching prospect out of Salty, because everybody in the league wants Salty. Count on it.
He's hitting really well in AAA right now, but I woudln't want him to come to the MLB this year and not play everyday. I'd let him finish the year at AAA playing everyday at 1B, and then hand him a MLB job next season as the Erik Hinske role, but without being as krappy as Erik Hinske.
That would be delightful. Though I'd prefer to see Salty stay at C and avoid 1B (were he in Boston). Problem with that is he serves no purpose this season (or maybe even next).
I kinda feel bad for George Kottaras. Not enough Southwestern Ontarians in the bigs. And a .660 OPS in AAA won't get him there. I'd still rather have him than Boomer.
I'm sure the Sox have feelers out on every player in baseball - constructing ludicrously one-sided trade offers out of reports of "interest" is, well, not a particularly productive use of even this unproductive internet-talking time. I too would love it if the Red Sox made a ######' A trade for Andy LaRoche, but everyone wants to make ######' A trades, so what purpose does it possibly serve to speculate that the Red Sox might make one?
What the Red Sox need, as best as I can tell, are a healthy Schilling, a fourth OF, and a backup catcher. Schilling is looking very healthy, which means the Sox aren't in the market for a starting pitcher of the non-ace variety. The Red Sox really have no room to make a move to upgrade Mirabelli - pissing off Wakefield doesn't seem worth it, not this late in the season - and regardless of whether it's a good idea, I can't imagine they'd do it. So that leaves 4th OF. The interest in Kielty suggests to me that the Red Sox value having a RH bench bat to complement Hinske, otherwise the difference between Kielty and Murphy would be negligible, given the role they'd play.
well, they might!
In the immortal words of Larry David, "What are you f'ing nuts?" Does Texas really think they can pull that?
Of course, Gagne is on a one-year deal, so I imagine there'd be more incentive to deal him-- though, again, he'll probably be a type A or B free agent, right? So they should hold out for something decent, unless they're just looking to save a few million dollars.
I don't think so. He only threw 2 innings last year, and only has 16 saves this year. Maybe he'll be a type B, but even that seems a bit unlikely considering how little he's pitched.
He pitched 15.1 innings over two seasons with 9 saves and that was enough to put him in the top 30%. Weird.
Batters are ranked by plate appearances, batting average, on-base percentage, homers and runs batted in, but I don't know what the pitchers are based on.
I woudn't call it a better appreciation of prospects, but an economic adaptation: because of ridiculous FA markets, teams MUST have a stream productive pre-arb 300K players being pumped out from the farm every year, in order to cut payroll and remain profitable. That's the economic truth.
There are fewer players available, so there are fewer trades. The issue is structural. "Progress" is always a dubious historical concept.
July 30, 2007
Dye chances 'pretty good'
By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff
While Foxsports.com is reporting that the Braves and Rangers have a deal in place for Mark Teixeira, a major league source said a short time ago that chances were “pretty good” that the Red Sox would complete a deal with the Chicago White Sox for outfielder Jermaine Dye.
In exchange for Dye, the White Sox would get Wily Mo Pena and a minor league pitching prospect (not Clay Buchholz or Jon Lester).
More on this to come ...
Pitching prospects not named Buchholz or Lester... Bowden or Masterson are the only ones, I'd think, that have much trade value (maybe Bard, still, but unlikely). Puffing by Edes? A real deal? Bowden for a couple months of the difference b/w Dye and Wily Mo + the compensation picks sounds more than fair to me...
I admit to having no understanding of the mechanics of this trade. I can't see myself liking a trade that isn't a pretty big rip-off to the White Sox.
edit: ah, but Gabbard's not in the minor leagues. Then I dunno. Maybe they like Bryce Cox! He has the greatest slider in the history of the world since Craig Hansen!
F!@# off Kenny Williams.
First, a Papi DL visit, then a Drew/Dye platoon? that sounds decent.
NOT BOWDEN OR MASTERSON YOU FOOLS.
Masterson I see the reason for hesitation - but if they have a trade lined up for another MR (esp a better one!) I don't see any reason to hesitate on MDC.... no?
Masterson I see the reason for hesitation - but if they have a trade lined up for another MR (esp a better one!) I don't see any reason to hesitate on MDC.... no?
Oh this is even worse, Manny D is getting outs NOW for the MLB team, and has been pitching really well.
Fail Theo Epstein.
Fail.
Frankly I'm not entirely sold on Bowden, and if a gun was put to my head and I was forced to choose I'd go with him, with 2 chances that one of the picks ends up being as good as he will be, as Bowden is the furthest from the majors.
Guys, to get talent you sometimes have to move talent (c.f. Hanley for Beckett). Yeah I'd like to fleece other clubs too, but you rarely get something for nothing anymore.
Trading Delcarmen makes the team WORSE. Who's going to eat those 7th innings now? Tavarez? Snyder?
More overwork for Okajima! YAY!!
Jermaine Dye makes this team better, but by how much? He's having a krap year, he's not even that much better than Wily Mo at the plate. This is supposed to cost a younger cheaper Wily Mo and a Delcarmen?
Pass
If we have to DL Ortiz, can't we just ride it out somehow? Manny DH, Wily Mo in LF with Moss platooning? SOMETHING?
This is ridiculous.
Ironchef, wok off the ledge. You're seriously underrating Dye and overrating Delcarmen. The Sox not only find a taker for Wily Mo, they also get two draft picks next year. It's a great trade for Boston.
Frankly I'm not entirely sold on Bowden, and if a gun was put to my head and I was forced to choose I'd go with him, with 2 chances that one of the picks ends up being as good as he will be, as Bowden is the furthest from the majors.
agreed. but i really like masterson.
The problem is that I don't see where the value will be realized. Dye could add regular season value if the Red Sox plan/expect to DL at least one of Papi or Drew. but I doubt they plan on either Papi or Drew being unavaiable in October, and my basic baseline question for a Red Sox trade remains, how does this help in October? Dye's advantage over Wily Mo is half defensive, and as a 4th OF / pinch-hitter, he's just not adding all that much.
I don't get this trade.
Jermaine Dye is a rental. A sub .300 OBP rental. We might not even get the picks, we have to offer him arbitration. What if he accepts?
Edit: Why are we calling up Bucholtz? He's not dominating AAA, why would we expect him to be ready?
I may be very irrational - but I think Buchholz or even Masterson would be as good as Delcarmen for the rest of the season. Certainly Buchholz.
One, it's silly yo assume that Dye will post sub .300 OBP for the remainder of this season. He's far more likely to post .900 OPS than .300 OBP. Two, he won't accept arbitration. Three, he'll be a type A free agent. Four, he's cheap for the remainder of this season. In short, the Sox upgraded from Wily Mo to Dye, and traded Delcarmen, a generic middle reliever, for two top draft picks next year. Wake up and smell the coffee, kid. This is a very solid trade for Theo.
i like masterson as a reliever, but it seems buchholz really struggles in his first inning of work ... that wouldn't work in short relief.
Manny D. strikes people out. I like that too.
I've felt most of the year that we need another bat.
if that's the trade, i agree. is delcarmen even a generic middle reliever? he's put a couple good months together ... that's it. sell high.
How is it silly? JD Drew has stunk for almost an entire year, and we all thought he was goign to turn it around with his hot June. Jermaine Dye has had a hot month. How do we know he's turning it around?
Two, he won't accept arbitration. Three, he'll be a type A free agent.
You better be right. I'm goign to assume Dye will land a sandwich pick and a pick after that.
raded Delcarmen, a generic middle reliever
You realize Delcarmen is our 3rd best reliever right now, and he's pitching the 7th innings? Who's going to throw those innings now, Tavarez? Snyder? Timlin? Donnelly with an unknown ETA?
I wanted to Free Craig Breslow, but not at this price.
Sure, because that's how you determine the true value of relievers. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
Dye's line after the all star break: .318/.392/.727 1.119 OPS in 66 at bats. I say he looks to have turned the corner
Sure, because that's how you determine the true value of relievers. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
Oh F!@# off. He's got 74K's in 82 career innings and has only given up 4 dingers.
Dye's line after the all star break: .318/.392/.727 1.119 OPS in 66 at bats. I say he looks to have turned the corner
OOOOOHHHHH!!!! 66 AB'S!!!! HE'S BACK AND BADDER THAN EVER!!!!
We thought JD Drew had turned the corner too with an .950 OPS in June.
Sure, because that's how you determine the true value of relievers. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
not even. 3rd best? whoa! then he MUST be good!
The Red Sox, though, are buying him as a 4th outfielder. Unless the plan is to bench Drew, this is strange.
The #3 reliever in the bullpen is more valuable than the 4th outfielder. Why would you trade your #3 reliever for an upgrade at 4th outfielder?
Obviously in the abstract, Jermaine Dye is worth at least Manny D and Wily Mo. The problem is that the Red Sox aren't the abstract, the Red Sox are a team with 15 million dollar contracts at each of RF, LF and DH.
btw, levski, i'm trying to ignore wok, so could you stop quoting him?
Then put me on ignore and quit whining jackass.
not even. 3rd best? whoa! then he MUST be good!
Who would you want throwing Manny D innings right now? Tavarez? Snyder? Timlin?
Theo & Co. must have decided that offense is a greater need than pitching (especially a reliever) going into the stretch run. It's a lot easier to replace your third or fourth best reliever than to upgrade with someone like Dye. With Schilling back and Lester in the rotation, the Sox can move Sicko in the bullpen, and Gabba Gabba Hey can also be slotted in there as the long reliever. And guys like Delcarmen, believe it or not, are fungible (to quote Gammo).
I'm not saying Jermaine Dye woudlnt' help us. His 110 *OPS+ line against lefties this year would help us. If Papi needs an extended DL (something I've advocated), I'd put Dye in LF, Drew in RF, and Manny at DH.
Somebody explain to me how giving Manny D's innings to Tavarez/Timlin/Snyder won't be a disaster waiting to happen. And somebody give me a concrete explanation on how Manny D's value is so little. Don't give me this "fungible" krap. Explain to me how a reliever with his numbers, stuff, and age/price is supposed to be "easily replaceble".
I mean, for hte trade to work. Not, like, in general.
You just import a random reliever from Japan. Just make sure to administer some psychological tests to ensure he doesn't sound like IronChef Wok. Otherwise, you're going to have a chicken with its head cut off running around in the clubhouse after the first home run he gives up.
Other than that, I think they have pretty good internal solutions to the problems that could come about. There are enough live arms to replace MDC, Cora is solid enough to fill in at middle infield, Dye being able to play 1st covers injuries there and at 3rd, depth in PAW allows for an injury in the rotation.
With this rationale, the Dye deal makes sense. Sporting the game's best record and having as legit a shot at the 2007 WS title as anyone, trading some future talent for depth and injury insurance is a good move.
well, it also depends on how convinced you are that mdc's last month or so is for real. the curveball/fastball combo is nice ... when he can control both.
RANDOM reliever? He just came of a great year winning the NPB Championship with the Ham Fighters, where he had a career year! And he picked up a new pitch which has really helped him, not to mention an "unorthodox" delivery which is probably smoke and mirrors.
Speaking of Japanese relievers, we should get Kobayashi. That guy is awesome in Japan.
-I don't like these bald assertions of the existence of equally good #3 relievers - even if one exists, how many medium- and high-leverage innings of #### will we have to sort through before he emerges?
-Dye's played one game at 1st in his MLB career - is he and not Hinske really the most likely choice in event of emergency?
-How good is Masterson? If it isn't Manny D, I can see the case for trading Masterson, a guy with quite a few really big question marks on his resume - but the Sox have to be confident enough in ignoring the exclamation points he's put on his AA career.
-How likely are the Sox to lose one of Manny or Papi for a significant period of time? Drew's been bad enough that replacing him with Ellsbury/Murphy probably wouldn't kill the team. I don't know how the equation works, but Manny/Papi insurance is pricey, with a low likelihood of use.
-How's Dye going to be used? This would be a real test for Tito, who has shown in the past that he loves simple structure in playing time and has managed almost no PT rotations. Dye would necessitate such a rotation.
Edit: I thank whomever granted us the power of Edit in Therapy.
-How's Dye going to be used? This would be a real test for Tito, who has shown in the past that he loves simple structure in playing time and has managed almost no PT rotations. Dye would necessitate such a rotation.
Francona is not up to this. He's just not that smart.
-How likely are the Sox to lose one of Manny or Papi for a significant period of time? Drew's been bad enough that replacing him with Ellsbury/Murphy probably wouldn't kill the team. I don't know how the equation works, but Manny/Papi insurance is pricey, with a low likelihood of use.
I think Papi will need an extended DL visit, which I will support 100%. Manny DHing will reduce his wear and tear and improve outfield OF, which I again, will support. What I will not support right now is giving up Masterson or giving Manny D innings to Tavarez, Timlin, nor Snyder.
But seriously, Wok, you make me question why I even bother looking at message boards at all if people are going to be all, HAY F#$* OFF JACKASS YOUR STUPID PUT ME ON IGNORE IF U DON'T LIKE IT SO SHUTUP DAMMIT. I know we're all just faceless handles on here and I don't know you from Adam Stern but dude, you seem to have this immature hostility that's not a little disturbing.
ChrisP's been on my ass for awhile. He was also the first to be hostile, so I merely told him to shove it.
That being said, you should post more. I like your posts.
It IS 3:15 am here. And I'm HOPPED UP ON STEROIDS BABY!!!
I mean, if all else fails, Buc will be fine. And Timlin has been great for a while too now.
-Dye's played one game at 1st in his MLB career - is he and not Hinske really the most likely choice in event of emergency?
For whatever reason, they are really confident in his ability to play 1st.
-How good is Masterson? If it isn't Manny D, I can see the case for trading Masterson, a guy with quite a few really big question marks on his resume - but the Sox have to be confident enough in ignoring the exclamation points he's put on his AA career.
Masterson is really good, but so are a bunch of other Sox farmhands. If you want Jermaine Dye, you have to give more than WMP.
How likely are the Sox to lose one of Manny or Papi for a significant period of time? Drew's been bad enough that replacing him with Ellsbury/Murphy probably wouldn't kill the team. I don't know how the equation works, but Manny/Papi insurance is pricey, with a low likelihood of use.
But you're trying to win a championship. Insurance is not that pricey. Championship insurance is.
How's Dye going to be used? This would be a real test for Tito, who has shown in the past that he loves simple structure in playing time and has managed almost no PT rotations. Dye would necessitate such a rotation.
Maybe a Papi DL stint to start. Platoon w/ Drew. Spell Papi every now and then against LHP as well. Spell Youk and Lowell once each every other week or so. Spell Manny too.
Championship Insurance is Johan Santana (i'm being facetious, but you get my point. Jermaine Dye guarentees a championship? Jermaine Dye doesn't even guarentee a playoff spot)
He is 33 and has a recent track record vacillating anywhere between MVP candidate and very good. He had a rough start to 2007. Big deal.
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