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   301. Joel W Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:00 PM (#3276092)
Also, I think this means that we're only going to have 11 pitchers!
   302. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:05 PM (#3276106)
Well, on the plus side I suppose we'll have 3 C on the roster. On the down side, we'll have 2 C on the roster who are pretty cooked/below-average.

With Masterson gone, I wonder if this means Smoltz goes to swingman if/when Wakefield comes back.
   303. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:07 PM (#3276108)
Halladay to Angels is the new hot rumor.
   304. Dan Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:09 PM (#3276112)
VMart is a nice acquisition, but for some reason I just don't feel as excited about it as I expected to be.
   305. Dan Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:10 PM (#3276116)
Halladay to Angels is the new hot rumor.

Ugh. Please don't be true.
   306. Dan Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3276144)
If Adrian Gonzalez really got traded to the Dodgers, you have to wonder what ransom they had asked for from the Sox to not be able to make a deal.
   307. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3276158)
Well, on the plus side I suppose we'll have 3 C on the roster. On the down side, we'll have 2 C on the roster who are pretty cooked/below-average.


Varitek's actually having a decent year, if that's who you're referring to. A 104 OPS+ from your catcher is pretty nice.
   308. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 31, 2009 at 08:30 PM (#3276172)
Long range 25-Man?

Varitek, Martinez, Kottaras
Youkilis, Kotchman
Pedroia
Green, Lowrie
Lowell
Bay
Ellsbury
Drew, Baldelli
Ortiz

Beckett
Lester
Buchholz
Smoltz
Penny
Wakefield

Papelbon
Bard
Okajima
Ramirez
Saito
   309. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2009 at 11:58 PM (#3276384)
The trade is OK, but I'm surprised they wanted Masterson. I'm sad to see him go, and I'm pretty surprised the Indians see him as a starter, because that's the only reason why they would have wanted him.
   310. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: August 01, 2009 at 12:34 AM (#3276425)
The fact we have Martinez for 2010 at affordable dollars, and that he'll be a Type A after 2010, makes this a good deal. I liked Masterson quite a bit, but Hagadone was pitching at A ball at age 23 this year, and is done for the season as he tries to come all the way back. The earliest you could see him in the big leagues is mid-2011. Pryce seems like a throw in. Now, it makes it a lot easier this off-season to trade Lowell (and move Youk to third, VMart to first), transition out of Varitek at C after next year (let him catch 80 games, and VMart 60 times, and then somebody else for injuries), and get rid of Kottaras (who doesn't hit enough to stick around). It also gives us insurance if Ortiz is ineffective in 2010.

Also: aren't the Red Sox in a position to have a lot of money freed up after 2010? Ortiz, Lowell, Beckett, Martinez are all up after 2010. That's $40 million in payroll among those four alone. Lugo is gone, now, Wakefield is year-to-year, Drew is done in 2011...there'll be a lot of money to go after a couple of big-tme pitchers, and to keep Beckett here.
   311. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2009 at 12:41 AM (#3276435)
The package for Martinez seems ridiculously cheap. My dad told me Tito said Sox management liked Kotchman better than LaRoche in a bench role, and I agree. Better D, less power, better OBP. 2009's Minky makes sense. Martinez would have been getting all the PA's that were slated for LaRoche plus more since he'd be the RHB DH for Ortiz if that's necessary. I don't know that there's all that much late-inning defensive work for Kotchman, one would think that on days we see Youk/Lowell at the corners there'd be no need for him, but he could come in at 1B on Martinez/Youk days I suppose. Overall this is obviously a huge improvement for the team, and while I'm a huge Masterson fan, the club's pitching depth made him expendable. I remain shocked that he was the biggest name the Sox had to give up to land Martinez.
   312. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 01, 2009 at 12:50 AM (#3276461)
Overall this is obviously a huge improvement for the team, and while I'm a huge Masterson fan, the club's pitching depth made him expendable.

We're all Masterson fans here, but I'm still surprised the Indians wanted him back in a package. I don't see what the Indians need with a swingman/long reliever.

Had the Indians asked for Bowden and Delcarmen over Masterson I'm sure Theo would have agreed to it. This way the Sox keep their swingman in the pen, while the Indians get a future starter and a good bullpen arm in which they can keep for 3 more years, or they can flip for more pieces later down the road.

Price and Hagadone are definitely good acquisitions for the Indians though. Hagadone's got crazy ceiling.
   313. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2009 at 01:49 AM (#3276566)
I know Hagadone's one of these 'projectable' types with his stuff and his build, but still, a 23-year old pitching well at single-A and not yet fully recovered from TJ surgery a year ago is not a guy I would necessarily count on.

I'd imagine the Indians see Masterson as a starter, no? I agree that you can make a case that Masterson is more valuable to the 2009 Sox than Delcarmen because his role in the 'pen is less easily replaced, but Bowden AND Delcarmen? I doubt that.

Send Smoltz to the bullpen. Hell, make Wake the swingman; if the plan is to carry Kottaras as a 3rd catcher, you could just stick him in whenever Wake comes into the game without any negative impact on in-game roster flexibility. EDIT: Or, ####, make Matsuzaka the swingman when he gets back. Tell him that it's his new "workout regimen" to pitch 2 innings every other game.

So, is it the case that the Adrian Gonzalez-to-the-Dodgers deal did NOT happen? Because that was going to piss me off. I do like the Martinez acquisition. Remain shocked that it actually happened.
   314. Darren Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:00 AM (#3276582)
I'm not sure if I'm misreading it, but it sounds like a lot of people are saying Hagadone is old for his level AND coming off surgery, when in fact those are the same "thing." He's old for his level because he's coming off surgery. Wouldn't be surprised to see him do well in AA and possibly AAA next year. And Tommy John is pretty routine these days.

Smoltz really needs to go to the pen. I know we wanted him as that postseason shutdown guy, but he falls apart somewhere around 50 pitches.
   315. Darren Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:03 AM (#3276585)
Aaron Thompson is all the Nats got for Johnson? Wow, they must have waited too long, because the Sox could have beaten that easily.
   316. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:03 AM (#3276586)
Send Smoltz to the bullpen.

I'm starting to lean towards this. He's awesome the first time through the order, then it falls apart. He's not imploding: i think it's like 2007 Schilling: The command is there, but he can't blow the fastball by anybody anymore. He's gotta adjust to that.
   317. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:08 AM (#3276592)
people are saying Hagadone is old for his level AND coming off surgery, when in fact those are the same "thing."

True, they're both symptoms of the one underlying cause - his injury - but I still think they're two distinct reasons for tempered optimism with regard to his future.

Not like I have a horse in the race - if anything, I'd rather Hagadone did go on to be a great player for the Indians. I'm just surprised this was all it took, even if he was Boston's #3 prospect by Sickels or whatever.
   318. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:26 AM (#3276599)
Hardballtimes doesn't really like the trade in our perspective.
   319. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:40 AM (#3276604)
Where? I read this, which I don't think is very good analysis at all. It completely ignores L/R batting splits, current defensive ability, and in my opinion mis-states the most likely lineup configuration going forward.

A. Martinez, a switch-hitter, hits marginally but noticeably better against RHP. Lowell has a sizable platoon split. Martinez is far better than Lowell against RHP and at worst a wash compared to Ortiz vs LHP (this hints at point C).

B. I don't think Lowell's better at 3B than Youk. Particularly if Youk gets more consistent PT there, which I believe he will (see point C).

C. I find it almost inconceivable that this writer thinks Martinez will get most of his starts at Ortiz' expense. His prime scenario has Martinez at 1B, Lowell DH and Ortiz benched. I doubt we'll see this configuration twice in 2009. If Lowell and Martinez are both in the lineup (setting aside C for the moment), Martinez is DH. I think Martinez gets all of what are currently Kottaras' starts, as well as an extra start every week or two for Varitek at catcher. I think he spells Lowell quite frequently vs RHB (in effect taking all the starts that LaRoche has been getting the last week, and maybe more depending on the condition of Lowell's hip), and I think he gives Ortiz the occasional day off against a LHB that Papi doesn't have good numbers against. Lowell, Kottaras, and the roster spot formerly occupied by LaRoche cede their PT to Martinez, not Ortiz. That's an upgrade, accounting for offense and defense, in each scenario ranging from fair to huge.

Again - not to knock Masterson, I think he definitely has dominant potential, and his versatility is a very real asset, but to play violins about trading your 11th or 12th bullpen guy for a hitter like Martinez is just silly.
   320. OCD SS Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:52 AM (#3276608)
I think VMart is going to see his AB's primarily at Lowell's expense, which he may be able to put up with given his hip. Add in a few more games if Tito will actually rest Tek more and we're set. Hell, maybe Youks will get a day off.
   321. Darren Posted: August 01, 2009 at 03:12 AM (#3276619)
With 60 games left, you want to get about 56 games each of out Victor, Ortiz, and Youk (151-game pace for each). That leaves 72 for Lowell and Tek, which is about a 100 game pace. That's enough for each of them to feel like starters and also get the rest that they clearly need (and that was promised at the beginning of the season for Tek). This is all quite manageable as long as Lowell agrees that he's not really able to play on a full-time basis.

The big wildcard is Wakefield. If he comes back into the rotation, who does he throw too? Does the upgrade from Kottaras to VMart make it reasonable to pick, say, Bowden over Tek?
   322. JB H Posted: August 01, 2009 at 05:52 AM (#3276665)
I would be very surprised if Tek wasn't on the roster through next year.
   323. OCD SS Posted: August 01, 2009 at 12:31 PM (#3276696)
I would be very surprised if Tek wasn't on the roster through next year.


I kind of would be, too. The team option the Sox have is very manageable. However I can also see Tek/Boras taking his pretty good year and wanting to get more than his player option from the Sox, or the FA market. If Tek wanted to cut the cord and play for the $, would the Sox let him go?
   324. Darren Posted: August 01, 2009 at 12:34 PM (#3276698)
Yes, I think they'd let him go. They practically dared him to walk this year.
   325. OCD SS Posted: August 01, 2009 at 01:21 PM (#3276710)
The diffrence being that this year they can exercise some cost control. I am eagerly awaiting a new, long term solution at catcher, but Tek at $5M isn't terrible for another year.
   326. Darren Posted: August 01, 2009 at 01:28 PM (#3276714)
$5 mil. is a lot for a backup, but they might do it.

I only meant that they'd let him go if he got a better offer (ie, not top it).
   327. JB H Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:00 PM (#3276719)
Yes, I think they'd let him go. They practically dared him to walk this year.

Well, since then he's put up an 800 OPS in 316 PAs. He should be worth about 8-10 million next year as a starter. Keeping him as a backup+ for $5 million is an easy decision IMO. I don't think either side wants to end things with a trade but I could be proven wrong there.
   328. Xander Posted: August 01, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3276732)
The other obvious angle is that you can't put Varitek on the roster as a backup. If he's on the 25-man, Tito is at least going to split time with him. Just let him go and let the organization move on.
   329. OCD SS Posted: August 01, 2009 at 05:52 PM (#3276804)
I think letting Tek walk reqires VMart to be able to catch ~110-120 games, which I'm not sure he's up for. I've spent my fair amont of time hating on Tek, but I can live with him as cheap depth (and to the Sox $5M is cheap).
   330. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2009 at 06:43 PM (#3276838)
$5m is very affordable for the Sox, and I don't believe either Varitek or Martinez are well-suited to catch 100+ games a season. I'd like to keep the two of them in a holding pattern through 2010 while a successor is found.
   331. Tripon Posted: August 01, 2009 at 06:49 PM (#3276842)
Doesn't Veritek have a $3 million players option?
   332. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: August 01, 2009 at 07:39 PM (#3276865)
Yes. From Cot's:

# 1 year/$5M (2009), plus 2010 options

* re-signed by Boston as a free agent 1/31/09
* 09:$5M, 10:$5M club option or $3M player option
* if Varitek exercises $3M player option, he may earn $2M in 2010 performance bonuses ($0.4M each for 80, 90, 100, 110, 120 games started)

I would think that if the Sox for whatever reason chose not to pick up the team option, Varitek would prefer to try for another FA contract rather than take the $4.2 or so he'd get from Boston. I'd think he could get more than that on the market.
   333. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: August 01, 2009 at 09:50 PM (#3276909)
McBeth back to Pawtucket and Kottaras on the DL.

Batting order:

1. Jacoby Ellsbury, CF
2. Dustin Pedroia, 2B
3. Victor Martinez, 1B
4. Kevin Youkilis, 3B
5. David Ortiz, DH
6. Jason Bay, LF
7. Jason Varitek, C
8. Josh Reddick, RF
9. Jed Lowrie, SS
-- Josh Beckett, SP
   334. Darren Posted: August 01, 2009 at 10:12 PM (#3276915)
Oh no, I sure hope that poor Kottaras is okay! It is very fortunate that the Red Sox just happened to acquire another catcher and that Wakefield is already on the DL. Phew, all around.


And Reddick? WTF? Where is Baldelli these days?
   335. chris p Posted: August 03, 2009 at 02:56 AM (#3277965)
And Reddick? WTF?

i know. wtf was tito thinking?!
   336. Darren Posted: August 03, 2009 at 03:07 AM (#3277973)
No, not 'what was he thinking?' smarty pants. Just why was he in and why has Baldelli been so rare a sight?
   337. chris p Posted: August 03, 2009 at 03:13 AM (#3277980)
No, not 'what was he thinking?' smarty pants. Just why was he in and why has Baldelli been so rare a sight?

well, if i interpreted your comment that way, it would have been harder to think of a snarky comment.

srsly, though, i kind of had high hopes for baldelli and it has been a bit disappointing that he's been either missing in action or not that good. i'm pretty excited about josh reddick, though.
   338. Darren Posted: August 03, 2009 at 03:18 AM (#3277986)
Baldelli's been good though, hasn't he?

As for Reddick, I thought he was emergency-only filler. His #s certainly didn't suggest he was ready.
   339. chris p Posted: August 03, 2009 at 01:01 PM (#3278116)
As for Reddick, I thought he was emergency-only filler. His #s certainly didn't suggest he was ready.

yeah i thought he was just supposed to fill out the roster until kotchman arrived. that said, his numbers in portland have been very good ... and that seems to be a place that is really hard on offense.
   340. OCD SS Posted: August 03, 2009 at 05:21 PM (#3278419)
His numbers are much better after you account for the fact that he played injured for the first month of the season.
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