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— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox

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   1. John DiFool2 Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:03 AM (#2564824)
Cleveland was my birthplace and childhood hometown, but I didn't get into baseball until after I left at age 10. I think the "beaten up" thing is overrated, but if the Sox winning the WS is at 100, the Indians winning probably would be around 25 (any NL team now that the Cubs are gone would be at 0, Yankees at -100).
   2. chris p Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:04 AM (#2564826)
*shrug*

i enjoy seeing the yankees lose.
   3. Dread Pirate Dave Roberts Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:07 AM (#2564830)
But I can’t do it. I can’t root for a long series because I would really prefer the Yankees be out of it before the ALCS, and the sooner that is achieved, the better. As a nice side effect, I believe a sweep would mean that ARod is history in NY. Maybe I shouldn’t be so hung up on the Yankees but I can’t help it.


I agree. Even if the Red Sox make it to the ALCS and lose to Cleveland, a decent silver lining would be that they didn't lose to the Yankess. The sooner the Yankees are eliminated, the happier I'll be. No offense meant to the Yankees fans here.....
   4. BDC Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2564839)
As a nice side effect, I believe a sweep would mean that ARod is history in NY

Surely you can't hope he signs with Boston. Y'all would never see a World Series again by the time he gets done coughing them up :)
   5. Xander Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:16 AM (#2564849)
I just want to see A-Rod out of NY. It would create the funnest off-season of hot stove action in recent memory, take take away about 5-7 wins from their on-field talent, and allow me to root for him again.

Not going to happen though.
   6. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:17 AM (#2564853)
When A-Rod struck out in the 9th I did a fist pump.
   7. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:20 AM (#2564867)
When A-Rod struck out in the 9th I did a fist pump.

And you were so thrilled I'll bet it landed over your shoulder.
   8. Dan Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:31 AM (#2564878)
I've been unabashedly rooting for the Indians. But in addition to hating the Yankees, there are a lot of guys on the Indians I like (Sizemore, Hafner, Carmona). And while obviously what I want is for the Red Sox to win the World Series, of the current playoff teams, if the Red Sox couldn't win it I'd like to see the Indians win.
   9. Enrico Pallazzo Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:00 AM (#2564930)
Personally, I'm rooting for Casey Blake's beard.
   10. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:30 AM (#2564990)
Red Sox fans should be rooting for the Yankees. You have a chance to beat them.
   11. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 07, 2007 at 05:11 AM (#2565071)
i enjoy seeing the yankees lose.


That's it in a nutshell.

On top of that, if the Sox don't win the World Series, I hope the Indians do. Having pulled for a team that endured a long drought without a title (though I wasn't around for most of them), I generally pull for the franchises that have endured similar dry spells.
   12. base ball chick Posted: October 07, 2007 at 06:03 AM (#2565086)
grady sizemore

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
   13. bibigon Posted: October 07, 2007 at 06:30 AM (#2565092)
Red Sox fans should be rooting for the Yankees. You have a chance to beat them.


Honestly, lets say this is even true, and the Red Sox have almost no shot against the Indians - say 20% or something absurd, and that they're 50% against all other teams.

If the Yankees win, then the Red Sox have a 25% chance of winning a World Series, but the Yankees also have about a 25% chance of winning one.

If the Indians win meanwhile, then the Red Sox have a 10% chance of winning a World Series, but the Yankees have 0% chance of winning one.

It is with no reservations and no hyperbole that I say I would prefer the latter scenario. It's not particularly close.
   14. ptodd Posted: October 07, 2007 at 07:07 AM (#2565102)
I do not know how any Red Sox fan would not want to face the Yankees in the ALCS. Obviously, the Yankees may have the best chance of beating us based on the last 12 games we played in the regular season, although the Indians look pretty tough the way they are playing now, but is that how we want to win championships, by dodging the tougher team?. The World Series is more like an exhibition match this year with a clear outcome , the real championship series is the ALCS, and nothing beats a Red Sox - Yankees matchup. Not saying an Indians matchup will not being a good one also, but, come on. Obviously, what we want is not necessarily what happens, but it's a question of having a winner mentality or a loser mentality. I want the Yankees served on a plate for dinner since nothing is more satisfying than beating them in a 7 game series (nor as painful to lose to). But a piece of Indian meat ain't bad if thats what it comes to.
   15. bibigon Posted: October 07, 2007 at 08:31 AM (#2565121)
Paul - the reason we don't want a Red Sox-Yankees series is because...

1. It's mentally exhausting.
2. We want the Yankees to lose. If Cleveland beats them, then they have no shot at the World Series.
3. We have more to lose than we have to win. So long as the Yankees don't beat us in the playoffs, the Red Sox have already "won" this season, by taking the division. A Red Sox-Yankees ALCS can only change that.

The belief that the Yankees are somehow a much better team I suspect has relatively little to do with it. They just don't terrify me by any stretch of the imagination - I'm more concerned about the Indians in a playoff series than the Yankees (or anyone else for that matter).

For me, the mental exhaustion factor is enough really however. It's Red Sox-Yankees, so I'm going to live and die with it, but it no longer has the same joy in victory as it once did, while defeat hurts just as much. 2004 took the fun part of the edge off only it seems for me. Now it just raises my blood pressure without the big payoff if they win, and a suicidal week to look forward to if they lose.

Pass.
   16. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 10:13 AM (#2565128)
For me, the mental exhaustion factor is enough really however. It's Red Sox-Yankees, so I'm going to live and die with it, but it no longer has the same joy in victory as it once did, while defeat hurts just as much. 2004 took the fun part of the edge off only it seems for me. Now it just raises my blood pressure without the big payoff if they win, and a suicidal week to look forward to if they lose.

Holla to that dawg.

I'm mentally exhausted ALREADY.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 07, 2007 at 12:17 PM (#2565147)
Lisa:

You will be amused to know the following assessments of Grady courtesy of the females in my clan:

"He's DREAMY"

"He's a total hottie"

"What a stud"

"He's a handsome young man"

That's 3 generations proffering an opinion.
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 12:32 PM (#2565151)
I assume the nonagenarians think he's the cat's meow.
   19. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 01:07 PM (#2565161)
Many of these posts here illustrate the difference between Yankee and Red Sox fans. Yankee fans always want to play the Red Sox, regardless of how the teams are doing. Because of the drama. Because of the ragging. Because of the personalities. Because of the hatred. Because of the rivalry between the two cities. Because of the history. Because we want to see an LCS rubber match. Because we know that it'll cause whining from every other part of the country that hasn't been colonized by fans of the two teams.

And I'd bet that the players from both teams want to see this, too, as well as the purest and most hardcore of the Boston fans. I bet that Kevin would much rather that the Red Sox face the Yanks than the Indians in the LCS, and not just because of what he knows about those two teams' respective first two starters.

It's because real fans of the rivalry know that even though winning the World Series is the most important thing, it tastes a hundred times sweeter when you've also confronted and beaten back your archenemy. You don't hide behind Momma Cleveland's or Momma Angels' skirt and hope that she protects you from humiliation. That's the sign of a coward, no matter how seemingly rational the explanation.

Paul - the reason we don't want a Red Sox-Yankees series is because...

1. It's mentally exhausting.
2. We want the Yankees to lose. If Cleveland beats them, then they have no shot at the World Series.
3. We have more to lose than we have to win. So long as the Yankees don't beat us in the playoffs, the Red Sox have already "won" this season, by taking the division. A Red Sox-Yankees ALCS can only change that.


Case in point. A fan who's more scared of the Bogeyman than any player would ever be. Of course the fact that the Yanks owned the Red Sox down the stretch has nothing to do with it....

And if the Sox and the Indians meet in the LCS, as it looks like they will, I hope that the Red Sox win the whole thing.

Keeps it in the family, so to speak, even if it may be the most dysfunctional family this side of the Louds. But to me there's only one team I want to see end the Red Sox's season, and it sure as hell ain't the Colorado Rockies.
   20. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2007 at 01:22 PM (#2565165)
Many of these posts here illustrate the difference between Yankee and Red Sox fans. Yankee fans always want to play the Red Sox, regardless of how the teams are doing. Because of the drama. Because of the ragging. Because of the personalities. Because of the hatred. Because of the rivalry between the two cities. Because of the history. Because we want to see an LCS rubber match.
So, because you lost last time.
   21. walt williams bobblehead Posted: October 07, 2007 at 01:30 PM (#2565166)
"Andy" = Satan. Resist.
   22. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 01:30 PM (#2565167)
We're tired. We're mentally drained.

We want to live a couple of years longer. Is that so wrong?
   23. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2007 at 01:36 PM (#2565171)
There is no family. The Red Sox and the Yankees are not supposed to be friends, their teams are not supposed to be friends, their fans are not supposed to root for each other.

I will never, not once ever in my life, root for the New York Yankees. I gain pleasure when the lose and become sad when they win.

I certainly gain no pleasure from the fact that other "colonized" regions of the US hate the Red Sox. I recognize it as a structural inevitability, and I accept it's the price of the $150M payroll, but I do not revel in it, I do not hope generally that those underdogs have their dreams crushed by any big payroll team. I root for the Red Sox to win, but I'm certainly not going to start rooting for all of the structurally advantaged of the world just because my team happens to be among that group.

The post reads more like you've rationalized the Red Sox' recent victories, and their current ALDS lead, by claiming that you actually have a rooting interest in the Red Sox.
   24. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:03 PM (#2565186)
Matt, I would have said the same thing five minutes after Bucky Dent, five minutes after Aaron Boone, and five minutes after the end of the 2004 ALCS. I've noted more than a few times here on BTF that I'm not a typical Yankee fan in that I root for the Sox when the Yanks are out of it.

Maybe it's just the difference between having witnessed 12 Yankee championships as opposed to 1 Red Sox championship since I started following baseball ("he can afford to be magnanimous"), but next to the Yankees, I admire and respect the Red Sox more than any other team in baseball, at least over the past decade when they decided not to go the Cubs route and just sell the ballpark experience. If they'd gone the way of the Cubs and the Orioles, the AL East would be a very boring division, rather than providing an inspiration for teams like the Angels and Indians and Tigers, who know what they have to do in order to keep up.

The National League should be so lucky to have a pair of such ferocious and bloodthirsty rivals in nearby key markets. Instead they have the Dodgers and the Giants, who haven't had a real head to head fight for a title in over 35 years.

I'm not saying that to be a "true" fan of the rivalry you have to root for the other team once yours is eliminated. I know I may be the only one out here like that.

But I do think that no real fan of the Yanks or the Sox wants to duck the other team just because it might make it a bit easier to get to the World Series. Real fans want complete bragging and ragging rights, and not just over the National League. But I'm not seeing much of that here.

"Andy" = Satan. Resist.

Yep, that's me on the left, buying up the soul of another innocent Red Sox fan. But how did you know?
   25. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:12 PM (#2565190)
But I do think that no real fan of the Yanks or the Sox wants to duck the other team just because it might make it a bit easier to get to the World Series.

Real fans are also tired of flame wars, and the two weeks of garbage that will follow no matter what the outcome is.
   26. PJ Martinez Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:17 PM (#2565195)
"Yankee fans always want to play the Red Sox, regardless of how the teams are doing. Because of the drama."

BS. How many Yankee fans are rooting for the Sox over the Angels?

Okay, that may be a bad example, because many Yankee fans are terrified of the Angels.

I'm still guessing that the vast, vast majority of Yankee fans want Boston to lose. (As well they should.)

As for bragging rights, the Sox won the division. If they beat the Angels today, and the Indians beat the Yankees, bragging rights are more than taken care of. The Sox already won one title by going through the Yankees. It wasn't that long ago, in fact.
   27. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:40 PM (#2565210)
IIRC, all WS titles count the same, no matter who you beat right?
   28. The Original SJ Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:48 PM (#2565216)
The post reads more like you've rationalized the Red Sox' recent victories, and their current ALDS lead, by claiming that you actually have a rooting interest in the Red Sox.

Not at all.

I rooted for the Sox in the World Series in 04, and I will root for the Sox if they make the World Series in 07. I root for the American League.

I was talking to my Red Sox fan coworker the other day, and he said because Red Sox fans are raised to love the Red Sox and hate the Yankees, where as Yankee fans are just raised to love the Yankees and the devil.

I think he is on to something.
   29. Darren Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:50 PM (#2565218)
Andy, there are only a couple problems with you setting forth what makes for a true Red Sox fan.

1. You're a Yankees fan.

2. You're a Yankees fan who also roots for the Red Sox. This is your prerogative of course, but such a unique fanhood immediately disqualifies you calling others fake fans. Throwing stones, glass houses, etc.

3. You hold up kevin as an example of how fans should act. Maybe you'd prefer we all make jokes about the Yankees collapsing like the twin towers, but I'm sorry, we're just all not wired that way.
   30. The Original SJ Posted: October 07, 2007 at 02:53 PM (#2565221)

2. You're a Yankees fan who also roots for the Red Sox. This is your prerogative of course, but such a unique fanhood immediately disqualifies you calling others fake fans. Throwing stones, glass houses, etc.


This is a decent point. And I want to make clear the manner in which I "root" for the Red Sox in the series.

If I watch the game, and they win, I say, "cool." I am not exactly going to the parade or buying a Jeter sucks ARod Swallows T Shirt.
   31. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:00 PM (#2565234)
i want the yankees, to be honest.

i'll have to skip class for a week and won't get anything done due to the nerves, and another week on an epic bender if they lose, but i don't feel like i did in 2000 when the Mets avoided the Braves in the NLCS.

give me the yankees. they'll get beat.

though, watching them get swept by the indians works too. i hate the yankees.
   32. Darren Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:00 PM (#2565235)
This is a decent point. And I want to make clear the manner in which I "root" for the Red Sox in the series.

If I watch the game, and they win, I say, "cool." I am not exactly going to the parade or buying a Jeter sucks ARod Swallows T Shirt.


Root however you want to. Who, besides Andy, is to say you shouldn't?
   33. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:02 PM (#2565238)

i'll have to skip class for a week and won't get anything done due to the nerves, and another week on an epic bender if they lose, but i don't feel like i did in 2000 when the Mets avoided the Braves in the NLCS.


I want my life to go on. I finally met a girl I feel positive about (and might do something about after my exam next week), I don't need another Red Sox Yankees series to send my life into a downward spiral of misery and otaku behavior..
   34. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:03 PM (#2565240)
Real fans are also tired of flame wars

This from one of the more venerable and imaginative flamers in the history of BTF. Shoewizard might opine that you must be getting old.

"Yankee fans always want to play the Red Sox, regardless of how the teams are doing. Because of the drama."

BS. How many Yankee fans are rooting for the Sox over the Angels?

Okay, that may be a bad example, because many Yankee fans are terrified of the Angels.


Most Yankee fans would rather have seen the Indians than the Angels in the DS (Be Careful of What you Wish for Dept.), but in the LCS we'd always rather see the Red Sox, even if they hadn't lost a game all year, because they're the Red Sox. Duh and double duh.

I'm still guessing that the vast, vast majority of Yankee fans want Boston to lose. (As well they should.)

That may be true in most cases, but when they wake up the next morning in the LCS they would still much rather see the Red Sox there with them. And this has nothing to do with any rational reasoning about potential matchup comparisons.

Look, the only reason that this rivalry is worth two cents is because both teams have been so good for so long. Otherwise you're down to the minor league level of the Cubs and the Cardinals, which is 90% beer and 10% good baseball.

With the exception of a brief period in the late 40's, there wasn't any any more Yankee-Red Sox "rivalry" for about 45 years than there was a "rivalry" between the Lions and the Christians. The Yanks' main rivalry changed from year to year, and the Red Sox' main rivalry was fighting with each other to catch the first cab out of the ballpark.

And real fans of the rivalry don't want a replay of that. They want Armageddon every year, regardless of how they think or fear it'll play out.
   35. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:06 PM (#2565245)
This from one of the more venerable and imaginative flamers in the history of BTF. Shoewizard might opine that you must be getting old.

I'm really not sure how to respond to that. My first instinct is to giggle like a schoolgirl. My second instinct would be to insult your ancestry.

Maybe you'd prefer we all make jokes about the Yankees collapsing like the twin towers, but I'm sorry, we're just all not wired that way.

I actually have not heard that one before. It's actually not that bad. But of course, this is from somebody that made fun of the Korean Hostages.
   36. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:07 PM (#2565247)
"Yankee fans always want to play the Red Sox, regardless of how the teams are doing. Because of the drama."


Meh. You know, a lot of the games between the Red Sox and Yankees, are long, excruciating, 4-5 hours affairs that often aren't even very good. I'm mostly over any 'need' to beat the Yankees other than them being another team in the Red Sox' way, and since the Red Sox and Yankees already play 300 times a year, and I know every Yankee player and sub by heart. The Angels frankly play a more exciting brand of baseball then the Red Sox or Yankees. The Indians too, to an extent. I'd just rather the Red Sox play a team that I find more aesthetically interesting.
   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:09 PM (#2565248)
Otherwise you're down to the minor league level of the Cubs and the Cardinals, which is 90% beer and 10% good baseball.
If you were a true fan of baseball, you wouldn't say this. You would instead appreciate the differences between different rivalries, teams, and regions that makes the whole of baseball great. But, since you're not a true fan of baseball, you did say it.

Your fandom is wrong, and you should feel differently.
   38. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:09 PM (#2565249)
I rooted for the Sox in the World Series in 04, and I will root for the Sox if they make the World Series in 07.

I also root for any AL team in the World Series, and that's part of it.

I was talking to my Red Sox fan coworker the other day, and he said because Red Sox fans are raised to love the Red Sox and hate the Yankees, where as Yankee fans are just raised to love the Yankees and the devil.

I think he is on to something.


Perhaps he is. I already outed myself in post # 24.
   39. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:10 PM (#2565250)
he Angels frankly play a more exciting brand of baseball then the Red Sox or Yankees. The Indians too, to an extent. I'd just rather the Red Sox play a team that I find more aesthetically interesting.

I definitely like the Angels. They play good baseball, Vlad is amazing, and I see their team as an America where the immigration policy isn't xenophobic.
   40. Darren Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:18 PM (#2565258)
Andy,

Maybe some of us are more interested in the Red Sox than the health of the rivalry. It'd be fine with me if the Yankees sunk into mediocrity while the Red Sox battled it out with the Rays and Jays.
   41. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:21 PM (#2565261)
This from one of the more venerable and imaginative flamers in the history of BTF. Shoewizard might opine that you must be getting old.

I'm really not sure how to respond to that. My first instinct is to giggle like a schoolgirl. My second instinct would be to insult your ancestry.


Well, either of those responses would be preferable to hiding.

Otherwise you're down to the minor league level of the Cubs and the Cardinals, which is 90% beer and 10% good baseball.

If you were a true fan of baseball, you wouldn't say this. You would instead appreciate the differences between different rivalries, teams, and regions that makes the whole of baseball great. But, since you're not a true fan of baseball, you did say it.

Your fandom is wrong, and you should feel differently.


That makes sense only on the surface. If either team slipped to the point of perennial mediocrity the way the Red Sox did for many decades, I wouldn't be writing as I have.

So I'm a fan of baseball, but almost wholly a fan of baseball played at a high level. And for quite a while now that level has best been represented by the Yankees and the Red Sox, at least much more than it has been by any other rivalry.

And you're right, I'm not a fan of "baseball" in the abstract. I'd rather watch Seinfeld reruns than an Orioles-Royals game, I'd only be interested in a Cubs-Cardinals game if both teams were fighting for the division late in the year or if it were in the postseason, and I'd rather watch any first rate Division I football game than a minor league baseball game. I'm not a Field of Dreams or Bang The Drum Slowly kinda guy, and never will be. I yam what I yam.
   42. Darren Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:25 PM (#2565266)
Andy,

Face it. You're wrong about everything. You're not a real fan. You're a fraud who poops in your pants. You should try to act more like Wok.
   43. The Original SJ Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:26 PM (#2565270)
It'd be fine with me if the Yankees sunk into mediocrity while the Red Sox battled it out with the Rays and Jays.

yeah, I think only Andy and sportwriters worry about the health of the rivalry.
   44. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:27 PM (#2565273)
I yam what I yam.
I know that. So is mcgriffy and so is Darren and so is bibigon. Telling someone to be other than what they yam, and that by being what they yam they're not being "real" or "true" fans is often taken as a form of dickishness, unleavened by any worthwhile commentary. Thus my point.
   45. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:27 PM (#2565274)
Andy,

Maybe some of us are more interested in the Red Sox than the health of the rivalry. It'd be fine with me if the Yankees sunk into mediocrity while the Red Sox battled it out with the Rays and Jays.


I can't really fault an honest response like that, but that sounds a lot like the famous Jake Ruppert quote, where he said that his idea of a perfect afternoon at the ballpark was a game where the Yankees score nine runs in the first inning "and then slowly pull away."

Me, I'd rather break the Red Sox hearts in the bottom of the ninth. And have it be done to them directly by the Yanks, and not by proxy.
   46. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:28 PM (#2565276)
I know that. So is mcgriffy and so is Darren and so is bibigon. Telling someone to be other than what they yam, and that by being what they yam they're not being "real" or "true" fans is often taken as a relatively form of dickishness, unleavened by any worthwhile commentary. Thus my point.

Yams are not the same thing as sweet potatoes right?

You should try to act more like Wok.

I can honestly say I would not want to live in an universe where Yankee fans behaved like I did. Because I've got heart and grit.
   47. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:30 PM (#2565279)
yeah, I think only Andy and sportwriters worry about the health of the rivalry.

A few television magnates might take you up on that one.

I yam what I yam.

I know that. So is mcgriffy and so is Darren and so is bibigon. Telling someone to be other than what they yam, and that by being what they yam they're not being "real" or "true" fans is often taken as a relatively form of dickishness, unleavened by any worthwhile commentary. Thus my point.


I'm not telling them to be anything else than what they are. But their psychiatrists would tell them that they're scared of the Bogeyman, even if they won't admit it.

Of course my psychiatrist's records are sealed for 99 years, but that's beside the point.
   48. gay guy in cut-offs smoking the objective pipe Posted: October 07, 2007 at 03:58 PM (#2565313)
Me, I'd rather break the Red Sox hearts in the bottom of the ninth. And have it be done to them directly by the Yanks, and not by proxy.

And you're surprised that Red Sox fans would prefer your team loses before they get the chance?
   49. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:41 PM (#2565389)
Me, I'd rather break the Red Sox hearts in the bottom of the ninth. And have it be done to them directly by the Yanks, and not by proxy.

And you're surprised that Red Sox fans would prefer your team loses before they get the chance?


Not really, but if they're scared, why don't they just say so?
   50. Darren Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:43 PM (#2565393)
Andy,

I'd respond to your post but I'm afraid you think I'm taking things too seriously.
   51. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:45 PM (#2565401)
Probably about as seriously as I am. This ain't exact Nieporent v. Retardo.
   52. Darren Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:51 PM (#2565414)
No pistols at dawn, then?
   53. walt williams bobblehead Posted: October 07, 2007 at 04:57 PM (#2565428)
See the way he operates, alternating between pretending to be your friend and challenging your manhood. Wily.
   54. Dan Posted: October 07, 2007 at 06:13 PM (#2565521)
Personally, I want to see the Yankees lose because seeing them lose in the first round means it's a lot more likely that things get shook up than if they make it to the second round and lose to a Red Sox team that had already shown itself better over 162 games. And I think we can all agree that the offseason will be a lot more interesting if Torre is fired and ARod opts out, etc.
   55. GIANTlhbASS Posted: October 07, 2007 at 06:22 PM (#2565530)
If I were rational about this, I'd also want a 5-game series, but that would mean the Yanks winning with Roger on the mound today.

My real hope is that it goes 5 games and that Jeter strikes out twice each game, giving him 100 postseason Ks. I want to hear Tim McCarver talk about that.
   56. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 06:47 PM (#2565546)
See the way he operates, alternating between pretending to be your friend and challenging your manhood. Wily.

They don't call me "Old Scratch" for nothing. I used to be a real good friend of one of those Red Sox owners. Can't remember his name, but we worked out lots of real good deals.
   57. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 06:59 PM (#2565550)
This ain't exact Nieporent v. Retardo.


Does Retardo ever show up here anymore?
   58. tfbg9 Posted: October 07, 2007 at 07:00 PM (#2565551)
I hate all these NYY-BOS series. They take weeks off my life. Very stressful, but not as bad as pre-2004. F*ck the Yankees, I agree with the sentiment in #40. But they aint dead yet in 2007 even, and I feel its ~50-50 we'll see a game 5 in CLE.

I don't understand Yankee fandom for the life of me. What's the point? Its all about gaming the system to shoot fish in a barrell, fatfaced front-runners and their chubby evil spawn. :)
   59. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 09:45 PM (#2565809)
I hate all these NYY-BOS series. They take weeks off my life. Very stressful, but not as bad as pre-2004. F*ck the Yankees, I agree with the sentiment in #40. But they aint dead yet in 2007 even, and I feel its ~50-50 we'll see a game 5 in CLE.

I don't understand Yankee fandom for the life of me. What's the point? Its all about gaming the system to shoot fish in a barrell, fatfaced front-runners and their chubby evil spawn. :)

Typical Boston fan, even with the :) thingy. Avoiding stress seems to be a higher priority than seeing great baseball....just like Jake Ruppert.

Have to admit that Boston fans don't have much to stress about today. Schilling was a monster.
   60. Justin T is going to crush some tacos Thursday Posted: October 07, 2007 at 10:24 PM (#2565898)
59 was very confusing without the quotes or italics and not having read 58 before it. Like, wasn't Andy a Yankee fan this morning?
   61. tfbg9 Posted: October 07, 2007 at 10:53 PM (#2565958)
Andy chimes in again, single-handedly upholding negative NYY fan stereotype of feined smugness.

Why do you remind me of Aarfy from Catch-22?

:)
   62. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 07, 2007 at 11:47 PM (#2566145)
59 was very confusing without the quotes or italics and not having read 58 before it. Like, wasn't Andy a Yankee fan this morning?

Still am. Sorry about the lack of italics. Even sorrier about Clemens.
   63. tfbg9 Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:55 AM (#2566837)
BTW, the Indians are gonna blow this seris now. Byrd will lose a game tomorrow that will have a score something like 15-7, and then there's game 5, which will go to the NYY's, keeping my parlay alive.
   64. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 08, 2007 at 12:05 PM (#2566996)
Andy: Well, either of those responses would be preferable to hiding.

See the way he operates, alternating between pretending to be your friend and challenging your manhood. Wily.

He did it again!!! he befriends me, and then calls me a coward!!!

What a huge !@#$#%%^$^
   65. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 08, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2567061)
What a huge !@#$#%%^$^

You'd better watch it, mister, or I'm getting you assigned to guard duty on Matsu. You won't like it.

Oh, and in case you hadn't heard, Matsu was just bought by the YES network and will soon be re-named Matsui. And your uniform will be pinstriped.
   66. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:13 PM (#2567088)
Does Retardo ever show up here anymore?


He had a cameo in the Jocketty thread. And this is my cameo in Sox Therapy. I am rooting for a Yankee win today and an Indians win Wednesday. I don't want to hear about Boston vs New York LXVIII and the inevitable backlash by nonfans of these two teams.
   67. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:35 PM (#2567116)
Oh, and in case you hadn't heard, Matsu was just bought by the YES network and will soon be re-named Matsui. And your uniform will be pinstriped.

I'm surprised Taiwan hasn't handed it's soveriengty to the Yankees yet.

Seriously, if that happens, I'm starting my guerrilla warfare campaign. Hopefully President Remy will supply arms for the resistance.

Edit: I don't actually formally recognize Jerry Remy's title or governance over anything, but if he gives us AK47's and Stinger Missiles, I really don't give a rats ass what Larry Lucchino does to get money out of bandwagoners.
   68. The Marksist Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:41 PM (#2567124)
Um. Thanks Andy. Glad I know what I should think/feel/want now. Life had become very confusing there for a while, what with trying to think for myself and everything.

I'm with Wok and others on this issue. And I'm not about to pretend that my fandom is rational, so don't bother trying to catch me in a contradiction because I know I'm doing it and I just don't care.
   69. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:08 PM (#2567178)
I'm not about to pretend that my fandom is rational, so don't bother trying to catch me in a contradiction because I know I'm doing it and I just don't care.

You and all the rest of us. My day isn't complete until I've done a 180 at least once. Keeps me from settling into a rut.
   70. JC in DC Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:19 PM (#2567205)
I hate the Red Sox, root against the Red Sox, and always will root against the Red Sox. I'm teaching my daughters to hate them, and to despise and disdain young men who wear Red Sox gear; to see in them unoriginal, uncreative trend-followers. I root for the Red Sox to lose, to lose spectacularly, to get injured, to get debilitating diseases, to make career-crushing, life-altering, move-to-another-state-causing errors. I was thus deeply pained by their sweep of the California (yes) Angels. My only consolation is that this just increases the likelihood a Red Sox player will have the first on-the-field heart attack during a playoff game. That makes me smile a bit.

Go Yankees! NY > Boston. NY will always be > Boston. Boston = really neat large small town. NY = World Significant City. NY:Rome::Boston:Des Moines.
   71. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:23 PM (#2567212)
I was rooting for the bugs to appear in Cleveland. I got my wish. They will be gone by the ALCS.
   72. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:23 PM (#2567213)
I'm going to save # 70 for the next time some dimwit says that all unionites think alike. If the Yanks ever luck out and get by Cleveland, I want Boston: Beckett, Papi, Ortiz and the whole nine yards. You prove you're the best by beating the best.
   73. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:34 PM (#2567235)
I hate the Red Sox, root against the Red Sox, and always will root against the Red Sox. I'm teaching my daughters to hate them, and to despise and disdain young men who wear Red Sox gear; to see in them unoriginal, uncreative trend-followers. I root for the Red Sox to lose, to lose spectacularly, to get injured, to get debilitating diseases, to make career-crushing, life-altering, move-to-another-state-causing errors. I was thus deeply pained by their sweep of the California (yes) Angels. My only consolation is that this just increases the likelihood a Red Sox player will have the first on-the-field heart attack during a playoff game. That makes me smile a bit.


Strangely, this warms my heart. I want the Yankee fans to hate the Sox as much as I hate the Yankees.
   74. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:49 PM (#2567256)
unoriginal, uncreative trend-followers

A Yankees fan said this.

Does it make you a bad fan to root against the Yankees? No.
Does it make you a bad fan to root for the Yankees to be swept? Yes. Every Red Sox fan should be rooting first for a five game series between the Indians and Yankees, with game 5 going to 21 innings. That the Indians would win on a Jeter error in the 21st would make it all the sweeter.

Who starts game 4 for the Yankees anyway? Wang on 3 days rest? Good luck.

Then again, Paul Byrd. Game 5, here we come! Let's get into those bullpens early and often!
   75. JC in DC Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:55 PM (#2567264)
SoSH:

Though born in beautiful Staten Island, I grew up in Red Sox country. Pudge Fisk used to drive his black Porsche through our sleepy town. In the late 70s, I used to get razzed and beaten by friends, disappointed by the latest Sox failure/Yankee victory. This is all I know. I don't get Andy, in fact, I suspect he's a traitor. You're either with us or against us. Rooting for the Sox is the original sin; it's grounds for excommunication. You don't prove you're the best by beating the best, you prove you're the best by winning simpliciter. If, God willing, the Red Sox bus drove off into the bitter Atlantic on the way to Yankee Stadium, and all perished save Big Floatation Device, I'd take the win in a heartbeat. The games must go on and all that, you know? I mean, I'd allow the half-masting of the flag and all, and even might shed the alligator tear or two (any ex-Yanks on the Sox roster?), but onward Yankee soldiers, and don't stub your toes on the bodies of the fallen foe as you march toward the World Series!
   76. JC in DC Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:59 PM (#2567269)
unoriginal, uncreative trend-followers

A Yankees fan said this.


Listen, I can understand being a fan of the Sox, but reason will not permit you to deny that currently the Sox are the fashion of the pimple-faced crowd. Let's not lose our dignity here. Rooting for the Yankees is like being old money. There's nothing trendy about it.
   77. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:04 PM (#2567279)
I want Boston: Beckett, Papi, Ortiz and the whole nine yards.

Sweet, we have Papi and Ortiz now?
   78. The Original SJ Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:08 PM (#2567282)
In the late 70s, I used to get razzed and beaten by friends, disappointed by the latest Sox failure/Yankee victory.

See, I can see why you hate the Sox. I didn't experience this, when I was growing up, Red Sox Nation did not exist, there were no Sox hats near me. It was the Mets and the Yankees.
   79. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:18 PM (#2567291)
JC,

And I was your evil twin (or, for accuracy's sake, you were mine). Born and raised in Westchester County, with a Lowell, Mass.-born Sox fan for a father and a Brooklyn Dodger fan for a mom (who already had the Yankee hate down, so it was quite easy to adopt the favorite team of her husband). Rooting against the Yankees (who we watched nightly on WPIX) was as much a part of our existence as rooting for the Red Sox.
   80. rr Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2567292)
Maybe I shouldn’t be so hung up on the Yankees but I can’t help it.


Admitting you have a problem is the first step.
   81. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2567293)
but reason will not permit you to deny that currently the Sox are the fashion of the pimple-faced crowd

Okay, point taken. But don't try taking the back door out, either - couldn't you argue that being a Yankees fan is *always* trendy? The Yankees are the original model for the "unoriginal, uncreative trend followers". Just because the "Red Sox Nation" (gag) has joined them doesn't mean that the Yankees are off the hook.
   82. rr Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:24 PM (#2567299)
It's Red Sox-Yankees, so I'm going to live and die with it, but it no longer has the same joy in victory as it once did, while defeat hurts just as much. 2004 took the fun part of the edge off only it seems for me. Now it just raises my blood pressure without the big payoff if they win, and a suicidal week to look forward to if they lose.


Interesting and candid.
   83. Jon T. Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:34 PM (#2567307)
Take Post 75 and reverse the teams and that's how I and pretty every Sox fan I know feels. I know it would be better for the Sox if the Series went 5 games, but I'll be pulling like hell for Cleveland tonight.
   84. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:34 PM (#2567308)
I didn't experience this, when I was growing up, Red Sox Nation did not exist, there were no Sox hats near me. It was the Mets and the Yankees.


My area was mixed. I got along with the Yankee fans and vice versa. I think that clique lines (jock, stoner, nerd, etc) were harder to broach.
   85. JC in DC Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:41 PM (#2567317)
Interesting comment, EWK, b/c in my experience, my Yankee fandom drew together Sox fans of all classes in their hatred of me. But I fully acknowledge that I asked for it. My mom (a Mantle fan) still has the picture of me from the first day of school in 1978, when I decked out in all dark blue, from my jacket to my sneakers (no kidding). The jacket was a gift from my grandmother who worked at Bloomies in West Orange: it was a dark blue cotton Yankees jacket. I looked incredible, of course, though it was like dressing up like a deer on the first day of hunting season.
   86. rr Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:42 PM (#2567320)
If the Yankees make it to the ALCS, I will be interested to see how much general non-ESPN-FOX buzz it gets, how ratings are, etc. I think it's possible that without the "curse" angle, it'll be sort of like a "Subway Series" to a lot of people, but maybe not.

I am pulling for the Indians, simply because of the 58-year drought, but I would not mind seeing another BOS-NYY ALCS. I enjoy all the history, by-play, etc.
   87. Fat Al Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:45 PM (#2567323)
Okay, point taken. But don't try taking the back door out, either - couldn't you argue that being a Yankees fan is *always* trendy? The Yankees are the original model for the "unoriginal, uncreative trend followers". Just because the "Red Sox Nation" (gag) has joined them doesn't mean that the Yankees are off the hook.


Fair enough, but after listening to the chirping of Boston fans forever, it's funny that the Sox are now the team of the front-runner, bandwagon, fashionable baseball-hat wearing "fan", are the team that Hollywood makes stupid romantic comedies about, are the team whose fans seem to annoy the fans of other teams around the country more than any other, are lumped in with the Yankees as a high-payroll team squashing the underdog teams, etc. I just find it funny.

As for the rooting question: I root for the Red Sox to lose. Always. Well, almost always. When I thought the Sox had the division in-hand and they were playing the Central teams the Yankees were jockeying with for the Wild Card, I was sort of okay with the Sox winning some of those games. But that's it.

Parenthetically, that does not mean that I do not like individual Red Sox players. I find it impossible to dislike Ortiz, and I have a soft-spot for Manny. I like that Youkilis is a member of the tribe, but that is mitigated by the beard. I despise Varitek and still hate Trot and Millar. I don't know why you would care, but there you go.
   88. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:52 PM (#2567333)
You were a uniter, JC, not a divider.
   89. The Original SJ Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:54 PM (#2567335)
Why does Millar wear wear his eyeblack in the style of Gene Simmons?

I mean really, Kiss?
   90. rr Posted: October 08, 2007 at 04:54 PM (#2567336)
Fair enough, but after listening to the chirping of Boston fans forever, it's funny that the Sox are now the team of the front-runner, bandwagon, fashionable baseball-hat wearing "fan", are the team that Hollywood makes stupid romantic comedies about, are the team whose fans seem to annoy the fans of other teams around the country more than any other, are lumped in with the Yankees as a high-payroll team squashing the underdog teams, etc. I just find it funny.


I thought it was pretty obvious it was going to happen, if the Red Sox ever won the WS. As I have said, I have always--going back to the late 1970s--found the Red Sox interesting, but never "lovable." The Red Sox combo of "underdog/good guy cachet" "easily digestible back story" and "winning team" was a powerful draw, but it was inevetiabgoing to morph after 2004.

In some ways, it's mildly unfair to Sox fans like Darren, SoSHU, bibigon, Bivens, MCoA, kevin, et al. In other ways, I think it is simply that people are collectively more objective about what the Red Sox are: a big-money east coast team with a great history, and a vocal fan base.
   91. Mattbert Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:09 PM (#2567354)
inevetiabgoing

It's really a shame this isn't an actual word, because it's fantastic. I think it rolls off the tongue better if you refine it to 'inevitaboing' but I'm gonna start working it in to chatters and stuff regardless.
   92. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:12 PM (#2567360)
You can call me a traitor, JC, but I've been rooting for the Yanks since before you were born, unless you're a lot older than you looked those times you were in my book shop.

I was born on W. 110th St in a block full of Yankee fans, Italians to a great extent when the best players on the Yanks were Italians. I kept my loyalty when my folks moved to DC, but what I remember most was that so many of the pennant races were just plain BORING, and I don't like to be bored. The Red Sox were so pathetic back then that if Yawkey hadn't been a millionaire I would have proposed sending them a boatload of CARE packages. They were described by Bob Sheppard when he announced the upcoming games as "Ted Williams and the Boston Red Sox"---the team was an afterthought. How can you hate a team like that? And in fact back then nobody did. They weren't worth the energy.

It's a different sort of fandom, I guess. No matter how hard I try, I can't work up an honest hatred of any other team, least of all the Red Sox. I can laugh at them when they stumble, and mock their pretentious fans (some of whom are as bad as I am) when they deserve it, but all that aside, without the Red Sox to compete against, as far as I'm concerned the AL East would be just like the AL of the late 50's---hopelessly lopsided and boring. Baltimore, Toronto and Tampa Bay, however annoying they may be this year or that, just aren't serious franchises, and you know exactly what I mean. No disrespect intended to their fans, but beating them out is like beating out a girl's team. They either can't, or won't, field a team with the year-to-year capability of contending for the playoffs. Sad, but true.

And OK, once in a while a year like 1998 is fun, with no suspense until the playoffs, and you can then say you've seen the greatest team that ever walked on a field, yada yada yada. But once every 10 or 15 years of that is more than enough for me. You don't remember Joe Louis or Ali because of what they did to their Bums of The Month---you remember their fights with Schmeling and Conn, or Frazier and Forman. Because otherwise it really would be like "rooting for General Motors." I can see other fans hating the Yankees, but I can't see the reverse. The Yanks need the Red Sox to define their greatness, because other than the Red Sox there's no constant factor---you can't really "hate" the Angels one year, "hate" the Tigers the next, and the Indians the next, and so on. It just becomes ridiculous after a while.

OTOH I'm also glad that most Yankee fans don't see things my way, especially those at Yankee Stadium. The Yankee Stadium bleachers display the perfect model of what fans should be acting like when they're at the game---loud and obnoxious, with no quarter given.
   93. walt williams bobblehead Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:25 PM (#2567374)
I was born on W. 110th St


Was your mother named Rosemary, by any chance?
   94. dave h Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:29 PM (#2567381)
My first and last trip to Yankee Stadium I sat in the bleachers and was sorely disappointed by the apathy. This was the third game of the Yankees sweep this year, and I was with three other Sox fans, easily identifiable. The whole game was quiet unless the fans were instructed to cheer. It was bizarre, like going to a Padres game or something.
   95. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:34 PM (#2567389)
I was born on W. 110th St

Was your mother named Rosemary, by any chance?


No, but we're blood relatives. And all it took to protect us from Red Sox fans was a few dirty looks from Sinatra. They knew not to mess.
   96. Mattbert Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:41 PM (#2567402)
If anyone cares, here are some comments with which I polluted the NY/CLE Game 2 chatter after Bernal first posted: Red Sox fans should be rooting for the Yankees. You have a chance to beat them.

Perhaps, but it's not worth the risk of the Yankees advancing to the WS should something go awry. I'd much prefer an ALCS where I'm guaranteed a non-loathsome representative for the Series.

Beating the Yankees in the ALCS would be sweeter than beating the Indians, certainly, and I think NY would be a much better matchup for Boston, assuming the Sox even make it. But I'm willing to give up that extra sweetness and better chance of victory for the assurance that I'll be able to watch the WS without hate in my heart.

I realize this is completely petty and childish, but I'd be lying if I said I felt differently. The lion's share of NYY fans here are a delightful bunch, so I really do feel lousy for rooting against their team that way.

2004 definitely changed the complexion of the rivalry, but it sure didn't extinguish everything that preceded it. As great as 2004 was, 2003 was just as intense. I'm not capable of being indifferent to the fortunes of the Yankees, not yet anyway. If that makes me less of a man, so be it. I'm not going to sugar coat my perspective to make it more palatable. I wish I didn't have the Yankee hangup/complex/whatever, but I do.

---

Basically, I am closer to JC than Andy now and was probably even more extreme than JC prior to 2004. The championship (and this year's pennant) have mellowed me out considerably, but I still can't root for the Yankees under any circumstances. Even when I intellectually appreciate that it might be favorable for the Red Sox if the Yankees win. I just can't do it.
   97. JC in DC Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:41 PM (#2567403)
My first and last trip to Yankee Stadium I sat in the bleachers and was sorely disappointed by the apathy. This was the third game of the Yankees sweep this year, and I was with three other Sox fans, easily identifiable. The whole game was quiet unless the fans were instructed to cheer. It was bizarre, like going to a Padres game or something.


Sure. Yankees fans are incredibly apathetic and cheer only on command. Troll.
   98. Mattbert Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:49 PM (#2567414)
Andy, I think some of the resistance to your seductive brand of fandom is due to the part of most Red Sox fans that still needs to, or is at least accustomed to, self-identify(ing) as an underdog (albeit unrealistically in most contexts).

When approached by a Yankee fan saying, hand extended, "We're not so different, you know. Especially now that you guys won one, you're just like us. Come be part of the big boys club," it's hard not to be a little suspicious. To be perfectly honest, it gives me a not-so-subtle Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker sort of feeling (not that the Star Wars rhetoric needed dredging up again, sorry). We'll never join you to rule the galaxy as father and son! Especially since Yankee fans would insist on wearing the daddy pants. F**k that.
   99. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: October 08, 2007 at 05:53 PM (#2567419)
You know who I don't trust? WB Mason. As my buddy Teen Wolf points out, they are the official office supply company of both Boston and New York. That's amoral.
   100. rr Posted: October 08, 2007 at 06:12 PM (#2567461)
Andy, I think some of the resistance to your seductive brand of fandom is due to the part of most Red Sox fans that still needs to, or is at least accustomed to, self-identify(ing) as an underdog (albeit unrealistically in most contexts).


Lucchino has the same need.

We'll never join you to rule the galaxy as father and son!


Too late.


Especially since Yankee fans would insist on wearing the daddy pants. F**k that
.

Yeah, but according to a Cleveland writer, they'll have oatmeal stains.
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